Darth Sidious vs Darth Krayt, Darth Caedus, Exar Kun

Darth Sidous get team up on by the Sith Lords that tried to take over after Sidious death.

Sidious dies. I don't think anyone outside of entities could solo this team, tbh.

Sidious kills them in 3 seconds.

Palpatine dies. Darth Caedus is going to be the MVP on this team besides Krayt I imagine, and with the additional power of Exar Kun, the team should take the win. 7-8/10 for the Sith team

Sidious needs to use the Force to kill Caedus and/or Kun as quick as possible so that he can focus on Krayt (who I say is the MVP and wouldn't be destroyed in a Force bout); I don't think any of the three would stand by and let Sidious do that.

All the same, Sidious is much faster than Caedus and Kun, and can easily break their Force barriers (in my estimation anyway); once their barriers are broken, all he needs to do is crush a vital organ or windpipe, and they die. It wouldn't take much. I got to thinking that this never happens against established characters, but in actuality it does; windpipes being held in one's telekinetic grasp happens all the time, the characters just don't always follow through right away. They gradually suffocate their opponent. But Sidious doesn't need to do that here, he has no reason to delay killing any of them.

Sidious can win if he plays it right, but if he isn't extremely efficient he'll end up overwhelmed. A lightsaber duel isn't a good idea at all.

@i_like_swords: You believe the gap between Krayt and Kun/Caedus is that large?

Sidious wins.

@dadivineking: To make my point clear I'll use numbers (not Gillard's system, for the record, just numbers):

If Sidious is a 9, Krayt is an 8, and Caedus/Kun are 7's. We'll say a one number difference is enough for a good fight with a clear winner, but two is in stomp territory.

Obviously that's an oversimplification but that's how I look at it.

If Sidious plays his cards right, he might win... If not, he dies.

If Palpatine opens with his trump cards he wins.

More often than not I'd side the Team with Krayt as the MvP

@i_like_swords: Eh, I disagree on Krayt being above Kun. Muur, who is canonically below Kun, as well as other Sith below the latter, was above Vong Krayt. So unless the latter grew enormously in power in the span of 1 year, I doubt his growth would supersede the gap between Muur and Kun, unless those two are relatively close in power themselves.

I could see this team taking BoTPM and earlier incarnations but not past that. Any iteration of Sidious post-BoTPM wins. No one here is able to compete with his Force powers, which include a lot more than simply lightning and TK, which most people tend to forget.

He has the ability to one-shot anyone here, and with an AoE attack he could down the whole team at once. He can also TP them to become his slaves and make them fight each other or make one or two of them his allies, and then win through lightsaber combat if he chooses.

He is simply in another league that is only matched by Yoda and Luke, and if RotJ or DE, then only Luke.

Well I think you failed to take into account Vong Krayt that Muur fought was below the Vong Krayt that Luke met. The Vong infection was getting worse and worse over the hundred years. Not better. As Reborn Krayt, he was for the first time ever at full power.

Add to this, if we scale off of Krayt helping Luke vs a piece of Abeloth, Vong Krayt was taking that Abeloth piece own TK attacks well enough. Good enough shape after said fight to make a weaken Luke be like, "oh shit."

Also to be fair, in said Krayt vs Muur fight, neither side was gaining a advantage. So you cant say Murr was above. He never beat Krayt and needed help to finish Krayt off that match. Krayt still did not die.

Gallery

How is this "Above" the weakest version of Vong Krayt?

1. Could you go over the details of the gap between Kun and Muur?

2. In terms of Krayt's condition; he was in a body that:

• Had long outlived it's natural life cycle
• His flesh was constantly being eaten from the inside out by the parasites

Also:

• Just killing a group of Imperial Guards left him too fatigued to keep fighting (and that's beginning of series, never mind mid-series)
• And even Muur concurs he was inhabiting "an infected and failing husk you call a body."

Krayt was at his worst condition before Muur started healing him, and IIRC, the healing was interrupted. Compare that to his Reborn self who:

• Can heal his body to full health on command
• Went through the tribulation of conquering death, something that always leads to a power increase for Sith
• Claims his power has multiplied and that he is "so much more" compared to his self with the Vong infection

I think a large power increase is warranted given the severity of his physical condition; because of his condition, he would have had to of been constantly devoting Force energy to tackling the parasites even while doing strenuous activities like fighting and using the Force. Couple that improvement with an extra power boost and I can see him breaching the gap.

3. But there's more. As seen in the fight against Abeloth alongside Luke (100 years prior to Legacy), Krayt shares some level of parity with Luke, and is his counterpart on the throne of balance (or whatever). This is best demonstrated after Abeloth is defeated: it is stated that Luke and Krayt suffered near-enough equivalent wounds, yet, while Luke was down and going to accept death without Mara Jade's ghost giving him a pep talk, Krayt was already walking away off of his own volition. Granted Krayt is a Sith who can feed off of pain, but we're talking about Luke Skywalker. Having even loosely similar Force reserves to him blows Kun and the rest of the ancients out of the water.

And in the final issues of Legacy, we're talking about a Krayt who is not only in better health than ever, but is at his peak in terms of power, experience and skill - centuries in the making. And to top it all off, he now has Dark Transfer; an ability that has let Cade Skywalker bring people to and from the brink of death on a whim, close up lightsaber puncture wounds on demand, and otherwise keeps you immortal for all intents and purposes.

Another way to gauge the improvement between Vong Krayt and Reborn Krayt is his fights with Cade. Their first fight was grueling and pretty even until Krayt finally overpowered Cade. Now, fast forward to the final issue where they fight. Cade has been gaining combat experience and fighting virtually non-stop since the fight with Krayt, even Talon acknowledges he's scarily more powerful than they last met. And yet, when he fights Krayt for the second time, he is beaten pretty soundly. Krayt's power growth since losing his parasites and conquering death exceeded a Skywalker who was doing nothing but fighting and gaining experience.

Good breakdown. I agree, although it does differ slightly if this is ROTJ Sheev instead of DE Sheev

@decaf_wizard: I just assume RotS Sheev in most cases, RotJ and DE is untouchable by most people not called Luke or Yoda I would reckon.

Sidious gets murked. Caedus and Krayt are enough.

All three of these people together is definitely too much for him to deal with. If he can dispatch Krayt quickly he might have a shot though.

I think a powerful enough group of Sith could manage to beat DE Sheev. Something like Caedus+Valk+Krayt+Nihilus

How significant is the difference between ROTJ and ROTS Sheev anyways? I know he basically decades to diddle with dark side nonesense and increase his force knowledge sure, but how much of that is a direct power increase did that amount to? I know he had a force drain setup on Byss

I'm curious; what holes would you poke in my argument above regarding Krayt?

It's meant to be a pretty big increase but I don't have sources on-hand. I would try his RT.

ROTS Sidious probably loses the majority of times. DE and ROTJ Sidious win this though.

@i_like_swords:

Could you go over the details of the gap between Kun and Muur?

Kun is above any other ancient Sith, as you know. This puts him above Sorzus Syn, who is above Muur. And Ragnos, who was stated as "the greatest Dark Lord Of the Sith". So it's Kun>Ragnos>Pall>Muur. And the latter was likely weakened as a spirit, unless he was using Celeste's power in addition to his own.

I guess it depends on how big these gaps are, and how much Muur was weakened, if he actually was.

2. In terms of Krayt's condition; he was in a body that:

• Had long outlived it's natural life cycle
• His flesh was constantly being eaten from the inside out by the parasites

Also:

• Just killing a group of Imperial Guards left him too fatigued to keep fighting (and that's beginning of series, never mind mid-series)

• And even Muur concurs he was inhabiting "an infected and failing husk you call a body."

Alright.

Krayt was at his worst condition before Muur started healing him, and IIRC, the healing was interrupted. Compare that to his Reborn self who:

• Can heal his body to full health on command

• Went through the tribulation of conquering death, something that always leads to a power increase for Sith

• Claims his power has multiplied and that he is "so much more" compared to his self with the Vong infection

Yes, it was interrupted, but IIRC Krayt sensed it was working. Also, when did he demonstrate the ability to heal on command, rather than over time?

I think a large power increase is warranted given the severity of his physical condition; because of his condition, he would have had to of been constantly devoting Force energy to tackling the parasites even while doing strenuous activities like fighting and using the Force. Couple that improvement with an extra power boost and I can see him breaching the gap.

So Krayt wouldn't have been able to use his full power against Muur or Cade?

3. But there's more. As seen in the fight against Abeloth alongside Luke (100 years prior to Legacy), Krayt shares some level of parity with Luke, and is his counterpart on the throne of balance (or whatever). This is best demonstrated after Abeloth is defeated: it is stated that Luke and Krayt suffered near-enough equivalent wounds, yet, while Luke was down and going to accept death without Mara Jade's ghost giving him a pep talk, Krayt was already walking away off of his own volition. Granted Krayt is a Sith who can feed off of pain, but we're talking about Luke Skywalker. Having even loosely similar Force reserves to him blows Kun and the rest of the ancients out of the water.

And here's my main problem: does Vong Krayt get scaling from his Apocalypse self? Or did he grow weaker over a century without gaining any more power?

And in the final issues of Legacy, we're talking about a Krayt who is not only in better health than ever, but is at his peak in terms of power, experience and skill - centuries in the making. And to top it all off, he now has Dark Transfer; an ability that has let Cade Skywalker bring people to and from the brink of death on a whim, close up lightsaber puncture wounds on demand, and otherwise keeps you immortal for all intents and purposes.

Another way to gauge the improvement between Vong Krayt and Reborn Krayt is his fights with Cade. Their first fight was grueling and pretty even until Krayt finally overpowered Cade. Now, fast forward to the final issue where they fight. Cade has been gaining combat experience and fighting virtually non-stop since the fight with Krayt, even Talon acknowledges he's scarily more powerful than they last met. And yet, when he fights Krayt for the second time, he is beaten pretty soundly. Krayt's power growth since losing his parasites and conquering death exceeded a Skywalker who was doing nothing but fighting and gaining experience.

Fair enough. Though he beat Cade with Dark Transfer, which would be easier to accomplish, given that he only needed to land a physical strike. Kicks and punches generally being easier to land, even in battles of equals or rivals.

@slayne: @saiyatoniansage: @azronger: @zapan871: @emperordmb: @decaf_wizard: @i_like_swords: @lordofthelight: to clarify, due to confusion, this is ROtJ Sidious. Before his death and the Empire went to shit.

@azronger: rots sidious isn't oneshotting the team

Exar alone is a good fight the three stoomp

@sirfizzwhizz: Hm, in that case of ROTJ Sidious, I still stand by my decision of Sidious dying. If I remember correctly, it's only six years between ROTJ and DE Sidious, so I think he wasn't able to master the Force Storm technique until then. So his ultimate trump card of the Force Storm won't work; his lightning, I imagine, isn't that much different between the two eras so it should be more than powerful enough for Sidious to possibly buy him some time to come up with a backup plan.

Pretty sure it's canonically confirmed that Krayt grew in power after being "reborn".

Nah. Palpatine decimates a lone Exar.

@zapan871:

Kun is above any other ancient Sith, as you know. This puts him above Sorzus Syn, who is above Muur. And Ragnos, who was stated as "the greatest Dark Lord Of the Sith". So it's Kun>Ragnos>Pall>Muur. And the latter was likely weakened as a spirit, unless he was using Celeste's power in addition to his own.

I guess it depends on how big these gaps are, and how much Muur was weakened, if he actually was.

I've heard some discrepancies with the Pall scaling, but I'll assume there are none just because I think the argument stands anyway.

With Celeste, it's her power + the Muur Talisman amping her versus Krayt by himself (in pretty bad condition). With that in mind, I think it's dubious to suggest that Muur, as a spirit, or in his own body and otherwise without Celeste, is necessarily > Krayt. It's similar (but different in proportion) to the Kyp/Kun vs Luke situation. It was Kyp's body with additional power and knowledge.

Yes, it was interrupted, but IIRC Krayt sensed it was working.

Also, when did he demonstrate the ability to heal on command, rather than over time?

It was working, not finished.

He brought Cade back from the brink of death to full health in their fight, and Cade has also done this. We've also seen Cade heal stab wounds instantly and there's lots of other examples. It's also how he survived being stabbed + Muur's lightning + falling off a cliff + Wyyrlok's lightning and his residual parasites.

So Krayt wouldn't have been able to use his full power against Muur or Cade?

Not them, or anyone else, while he's fighting the parasites. If you look in Mara Jade's RT there's a similar example where she is fighting off a disease with her Force reserves while doing other things.

And here's my main problem: does Vong Krayt get scaling from his Apocalypse self? Or did he grow weaker over a century without gaining any more power?

You're asking if he gained power even if the parasites were making him weaker physically at the same time? I would guess so, he hadn't hit his peak seeing as he became more powerful at the end of the series. But it does seem like the parasites overrode whatever power increases he had. Therefore, anything Vong Krayt did, Apocalypse Krayt should be more than capable of.

Fair enough. Though he beat Cade with Dark Transfer, which would be easier to accomplish, given that he only needed to land a physical strike. Kicks and punches generally being easier to land, even in battles of equals or rivals.

Even if that's true (let's face it; it's not easier to punch someone when you both have swords. Authors just don't want characters dying left, right and centre), Krayt uses Jar'kai, so that punch could easily have been substituted by a blade.

With RotJ Sidious, he could win if he abuses telepathy and/or force concealement, by escaping and hiding so as to finish each one on one if they separate, or potentially using telepathy if they stick together.

In a direct duel, Sidious would likely have his hands full in either saber combat or a force battle.

@sirfizzwhizz: I maintain my stance, then.

@kbroskywalker: Unless anyone here can tank lightsaber strikes, then yes he is. His lightning is more potent than a lightsaber, he can shoot it faster than even Yoda can react and he can overwhelm their defenses rather easily.

unless you think that vader can tank lightning way better than caedus+krayt+kun combined sidious isn't coming close to oneshotting the team. And yes, Vader was amped by the need to save his son, he also was xhausted from getting his but whopped by him.

@kbroskywalker: He also felt extremely weakened, tho.

Sidious?

@kbroskywalker: No, Vader:

At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arms to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his very fiber of being on this one, concentrated act—the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weakness, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will—his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.

-- Return Of The Jedi

Of course, given the release date of the novel, this doesn't take into account newer sources, such as Revenge Of The Sith or Darth Vader And The Lost Command, but it can still be interpreted as Vader being extremely weakened. Though in fairness he was also highly focused on killing Sidious. Still, I doubt that's an amp, and I doubt it would be enough to fully compensate for Vader's weakness.

I acknowledged vader's weakness. Amp wise, I'd say his love for the son was a pretty powerful motivator but as he was likely exhausted at the time so the point still stands, sidious didn't come close to oneshotting vader, here, he isn't doing it vs the team

Team stomps. At the very least its a stalemate, cause I dont think Sidious can absorb spirits, so spirit kun could survive

Team.