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36 Comments

Spider-Man Battle of the Week: Scarlet Spider vs. Lizard

Kaine or Curt Connors?! These two are about to fight and it's up to you to pick a victor!

Things are about to get savage. To continue Spider-Man month, we're placing the durable and deadly villain Lizard against the brutal anti-hero Scarlet Spider. The webhead often needs a plot device to overcome Curt Connors, so will the physically impressive Kaine be able to take-down this vicious threat or will he suffer a bloody defeat?

After these two clash, who will be the one to walk away as the winner? Will Lizard's durability, speed and relentless attacks eventually bring Kaine to his knees? Or will Scarlet Spider's commendable physicals and "do what needs to be done" mentality allow him to best Peter Parker's classic enemy? Be sure to read all of the rules before voting. Seriously, they're important and you'll look silly if you ask a question that's already answered in there. You don't want to look silly on the internet, do you? Of course not, so read all of the rules then click the following link to vote and leap into the debate.

CLICK HERE TO VOTE!

Prepare for awesome.

Match Rules

  • Combatants are in character (aka morals apply for both).
  • This is a random encounter (aka no prep for either).
  • They're fighting in a generic downtown city setting. It's unpopulated, at night and all standard city lights remain on. Assume they start roughly 20 feet apart and visible. There's a fair amount of cover between them (parked vehicles, bus stops and such). The entire area is on limits. This means alleys, rooftops, building interiors, etc.
  • Both characters have their standard gear.
  • For simplicity's sake, let's say Lizard does NOT have the mental ability that was introduced in Shed and Curt is NOT in control of Lizard's actions. Additionally, Kaine will NOT transform into The Other. Let's keep this straightforward, yeah?
  • Incapacitation, knockout or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too.
  • Hey, you know what would be really cool? Treating everyone else in the debate with respect. If you think someone's saying something that just isn't true, go ahead and stick to the facts to point out why. There's no need at all to drop insults just because you disagree with someone. Seriously, this is just talking about a fictional fight, there's no need for immaturity and mudslinging.
  • If you think the poll isn't going how it should, making an informative post about why a character is being underestimated and spreading the word is far more useful than complaining. Just saying.
  • One more thing: you don't need to write an essay to be selected as the Viner Argument of the Week. Sometimes concise posts can be way more effective than a flood of paragraphs.

Viners, you have the week to research, debate and vote! This means there's no reason to vote right away if you don't have all of the info you need to make an educated decision. Check the homepage Friday for an updated article with the following:

  • Thoughts from the staff.
  • A Viner Argument for both characters (can't include scans and must be in the poll thread).
  • If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Feel free to make future "Spider-Man Battle of the Week" suggestions in the comments below or via Twitter! Want to continue celebrating Spidey? Well, he'll be the topic of tomorrow's 'Question of the Week' and we encourage you to make Spider-Man threads in the forums!

39 Comments
Edited by ThanosIsMad

Kaine pretends he's Wolverine and guts Connors.

Edited by jwrose5

I think Kaine has this in the bag. He's a dark version of Peter Parker and chances are he has no idea that the Lizard is Dr. Curt Connors mutated. He may start out just trying to put it down gently, thinking of taking it to a zoo or something, but as the Lizard lashes out Kaine will lose his cool and start hitting harder. Stingers will come out and Kaine will go to KO or kill, blood loss/lobotomy winning the match for him. But as with smaller lizards, Connors' healing factor will make it hard to accomplish. The fight will cause so much collateral damage, cars, light posts, walls, general infrastructure will no escape this brawl.

That is IF the fight stays in the streets and doesn't move down into the sewers. Sure, Kaine can see in the dark and can talk to spiders, but if this is the Lizard's lair then Connors knows each corner and hidden space to ambush the killer clone. He can climb walls just like the wall crawler, he has a deadly tail, and the strength and speed necessary to win this. Kaine, just like Peter, needs room to maneuver and he can't do that confined in the sewers. He would have to force this fight back up into the open streets. Kaine would try to win in the sewers, get his ass kicked, then realize he won't win in close range against a superior strength with an extra limb, and animalistic savagery.

If Kaine is thinking and keeps the fight out in the open, he can win this.

Posted by AlKusanagi

Seems pretty one-sided. Spidey regularly defeats the Lizard, and Kaine is a much meaner version of him.

Edited by k4tzm4n

@alkusanagi said:

Seems pretty one-sided. Spidey regularly defeats the Lizard, and Kaine is a much meaner version of him.

The introduction literally points out the fact that Spider-Man often requires a plot device to defeat Curt -- he's regularly stated that Lizard's too durable for his fists alone (even when admitting to not holding back). No one here is obtaining an easy victory.

Staff
Posted by WWAJfan

@k4tzm4n:

@k4tzm4n said:

@alkusanagi said:

Seems pretty one-sided. Spidey regularly defeats the Lizard, and Kaine is a much meaner version of him.

The introduction literally points out the fact that Spider-Man often requires a plot device to defeat Curt -- he's regularly stated that Lizard's too durable for his fists alone (even when admitting to not holding back). No one here is obtaining an easy victory.

word

Posted by Sighburr_Punk

I'm going with Kaine here, he'll use more brutal tactics than Pete, plus he has no idea that the Lizard is Curt Connors, so he'll just go for it and take him out before anyone can really be hurt. It won't be easy, I can tell you that, but Kaine will definitely defeat the Lizard, 8/10.

Posted by RD189

Kaine has this. He's much more brutal then Peter, and he would have no qualms about putting the Lizard down to protect people. He's also got a few more toys then peter, with the Stingers and the Burning touch.

Problem is, Lizard is not easy prey by any means. He has that tough skin, he's as strong if not stronger then Pete and Kaine, and as the fight drags on he becomes more and feral, and more dangerous by extension.

The Key for Kaine will be to stay mobile, and keep the fight on the streets, because in the sewers he will be easy prey for The Lizard. Kaine has the advantage of speed, he wont care that it's Curt Connors, and he's willing to go to lethal force if it comes to it. He also won't let the fight drag out, because again, he wont waste time trying to cure the Lizard.

Giving it to Kaine 7/10

Posted by Captain13

One is popular. One is not. I bet I know who wins. :)

Edited by jashro44

Kaine pretends he's Wolverine and guts Connors.

Nope.

@jwrose5 said:

I think Kaine has this in the bag. He's a dark version of Peter Parker and chances are he has no idea that the Lizard is Dr. Curt Connors mutated. He may start out just trying to put it down gently, thinking of taking it to a zoo or something, but as the Lizard lashes out Kaine will lose his cool and start hitting harder. Stingers will come out and Kaine will go to KO or kill, blood loss/lobotomy winning the match for him. But as with smaller lizards, Connors' healing factor will make it hard to accomplish. The fight will cause so much collateral damage, cars, light posts, walls, general infrastructure will no escape this brawl.

That is IF the fight stays in the streets and doesn't move down into the sewers. Sure, Kaine can see in the dark and can talk to spiders, but if this is the Lizard's lair then Connors knows each corner and hidden space to ambush the killer clone. He can climb walls just like the wall crawler, he has a deadly tail, and the strength and speed necessary to win this. Kaine, just like Peter, needs room to maneuver and he can't do that confined in the sewers. He would have to force this fight back up into the open streets. Kaine would try to win in the sewers, get his ass kicked, then realize he won't win in close range against a superior strength with an extra limb, and animalistic savagery.

If Kaine is thinking and keeps the fight out in the open, he can win this.

Kaine always engages in melee combat. He doesn't use webbing often nor does he typically keep his distance. Kaine has stingers but Lizards claws can get the same result. Even if Kiane does use webbing he doesn't have a lot of accuracy feats to tag someone who Peter struggled to keep up with. The lizard is very fast and agile. More so than anyone who Kaine has tagged with webbing.

@rd189 said:

Kaine has this. He's much more brutal then Peter, and he would have no qualms about putting the Lizard down to protect people. He's also got a few more toys then peter, with the Stingers and the Burning touch.

Problem is, Lizard is not easy prey by any means. He has that tough skin, he's as strong if not stronger then Pete and Kaine, and as the fight drags on he becomes more and feral, and more dangerous by extension.

The Key for Kaine will be to stay mobile, and keep the fight on the streets, because in the sewers he will be easy prey for The Lizard. Kaine has the advantage of speed, he wont care that it's Curt Connors, and he's willing to go to lethal force if it comes to it. He also won't let the fight drag out, because again, he wont waste time trying to cure the Lizard.

Giving it to Kaine 7/10

Kaine does not have the advantage in speed. Current Lizard was to fast for spider-man to touch, despite the fact that peter has spider-sense and way of the spider whereas Kaine does not:

Peter was basically blitzed. And not to mention that Connors can take a lot more damage than Kaine can take.

Edited by jashro44

I'm going with Kaine here, he'll use more brutal tactics than Pete, plus he has no idea that the Lizard is Curt Connors, so he'll just go for it and take him out before anyone can really be hurt. It won't be easy, I can tell you that, but Kaine will definitely defeat the Lizard, 8/10.

Kaine maybe more brutal but this isn't going to be enough. Peter doesn't hold back on Lizard when he hits him. He even hurt his hand on Lizards skin because he punched him so hard:

Posted by laflux

Lizard 7/10.

Mostly because I made an Ascended Scarlet Spider vs Lizard thread and I think @k4tzm4n is cheaply copying my ideas but my thinking is if Lizard can take an updated version of Kaine, he should be fine against the normal version.

@jashro44 I agree Lizard wins, but its not all the time Peter has been helpless against Lizard. IIRC he's beaten him a few times with the Other upgrade-which Kaine has, he's broken his neck while Bloodlusted. Peter's also beaten Stegron with the Other Upgrade, who is similar in alot of respects. I think Kaine has what it takes to steal a few wins.

Online
Posted by jashro44

@laflux said:

Lizard 7/10.

Mostly because I made an Ascended Scarlet Spider vs Lizard thread and I think @k4tzm4n is cheaply copying my ideas but my thinking is if Lizard can take an updated version of Kaine, he should be fine against the normal version.

@jashro44 I agree Lizard wins, but its not all the time Peter has been helpless against Lizard. IIRC he's beaten him a few times with the Other upgrade-which Kaine has, he's broken his neck while Bloodlusted. Peter's also beaten Stegron with the Other Upgrade, who is similar in alot of respects. I think Kaine has what it takes to steal a few wins.

Yes however Lizard has gotten upgraded a lot since then. I never said Peter lost every fight to Lizard just their most recent fight after Lizards current upgrade.

Posted by laflux
Online
Posted by Wyldsong

Good points all around...though I still need to think on this one. My self induced exile into indie comic land has made the brain rusty on mainstream knowledge...

Edited by jashro44

Just going to upload the scans I uploaded on the other thread here:

Lizard after his most recent upgrade wrecks spider-man. Basically blitzes and in addition to that he also gets stabbed in the brain and peter still needs to use webbing to restrain Lizard.
Tanks explosions
Regenerates after being stabbed through the chest.
Can regrow an arm

And this was uploaded by @shenkuei but basically peter doesn't hold back on Lizard:

Posted by Kibbles7a239

I'd agree with earlier comments that in an open space Kaine should just about shade it but in a confined space (alleys sewers) Connors wins easily

Posted by substance104

As tough as Lizard is, Kaine is a barbarian, he would win against anyone

Posted by jashro44

As tough as Lizard is, Kaine is a barbarian, he would win against anyone

I don't see why Kaine would win against Lizard.

I'd agree with earlier comments that in an open space Kaine should just about shade it but in a confined space (alleys sewers) Connors wins easily

Kaines odds are greater in an open environment however I believe Kaine prefers to use melee. He almost always engages in close range.

Edited by Sighburr_Punk

I change my vote actually, seeing as Kaine always goes for close combat, the Lizard would take this, but I still don't think it would be a stomp. 7/10 for Lizard.

Edited by AmazingWebHead

Kaine is every bit as strong as Peter, (the guy who regularly kicks Lizard's scaly ass) but he doesn't hold back

Posted by jwrose5

@jashro44: I do suppose I can't say that Kaine is faster and stronger than Pete. He used to hold his own against Pete and Ben Reilly. His encounter with Ock as Spidey had them pretty similar, but he did break chains that neither of them were supposed to break. Its hard to tell how much of his old self he kept after being healed from the clone degeneration.

Edited by Immortal777

Kaine stomps

He's a favorite.

Posted by DrThanos91

Im not hoping sound like a fanboy,but Kaine has this in the bag in an open space environment,scarlet spiders capabilities will greatly aid him,while connor being a brilliant scientist,you never know the outcome,yet I give 55% to Kaine in the overall encounter

Edited by jashro44

@jwrose5 said:

@jashro44: I do suppose I can't say that Kaine is faster and stronger than Pete. He used to hold his own against Pete and Ben Reilly. His encounter with Ock as Spidey had them pretty similar, but he did break chains that neither of them were supposed to break. Its hard to tell how much of his old self he kept after being healed from the clone degeneration.

He is physically superior to spider-man due to the other however I don't think he is as strong as his old self.

Im not hoping sound like a fanboy,but Kaine has this in the bag in an open space environment,scarlet spiders capabilities will greatly aid him,while connor being a brilliant scientist,you never know the outcome,yet I give 55% to Kaine in the overall encounter

You don't sound like a fanboy. But personally with Kaines way of fighting I don't see an open environment being much help. He fights up close a lot so I do believe that in character Kaine is going to go melee.

Posted by Schmalzel

@jashro44: Love the scans, the one where Lizard and Callypso and Lizards son was in the frames, those were some of my favorite Spiderman battles.... onto the battle, I think Lizard takes this one, just to much strength and durability without any kind of prep or tactical retreat for Kaine to prepare for a second battle, he will get to close and will lose to the Lizard. He actually would have a better chance if Connors had his mind because that Lizard had morals, a Lizard without Connors mind is pretty much blood lusted.

Posted by MrValance

In Spider-Man's last fight with lizard In No Going Back Peter couldn't beat the Lizard BEFORE he got that upgrade at the end of the story. The opening scene is of Peter Fighting The Lizard and him saying he has no idea how many hours they've been fighting for. Even with the arrival of Morbius they couldn't physically beat him after stabbing him with harpoons. AFTER the upgrade Connor gets thrown through reinforced steel panels with no harm done to him. Lizard then speed blitzed Peter. The only reason Peter wasn't killed was because Connor's human side was making all civilians look like Martha and Billy, and Peter looked like Connor. As Peter was holding the final cure harpoon with the arm Connor was missing The Lizard didn't see what Peter was doing...... Which was stabbing him from under the jaw and into his brain. The Harpoon then explodes inside the Lizards head, and he survives. The harpoon didn't physically restore Connor but mentally did so it's implied that if "The Lizard" was still in control he could have kept fighting, but Connor wanted to be punished so he didn't. Note Spiderman Shoved Harpoon clear through the Lizards head, if someone could dig up a scan it could seem that it's as graphic as described.

On another note it seems these votes are based more on popularity and people aren't even reading these arguements, as most arguements here seem to prove The Lizard should win this fight yet Kaine is winning in votes ( at the time of me writing this)

Edited by Mrgreenlantern

Kaine might not have the speed advantage but lets keep in mind the stealth suit gives him the upper hand if he wanted to hit and run. Kaine tries to hit hard and fast until Connors inevitably gets a hold of him from there Kaine would either need to hold on for dear life with the mark of Kaine while at the same time firing off projectile stingers into Connor's head

I dont think many can take that kind of head trauma without being incapacitated

EDIT: Kaine's durability will hold out long enough to melt Connor's face while at the same time blinding him with the stingers


everyone seems to forget this is not Spider-man...we're dealing with someone stronger and arguably faster than pete with nothing against killing another human let alone a monster like the lizard

Edited by jashro44

@schmalzel said:

@jashro44: Love the scans, the one where Lizard and Callypso and Lizards son was in the frames, those were some of my favorite Spiderman battles.... onto the battle, I think Lizard takes this one, just to much strength and durability without any kind of prep or tactical retreat for Kaine to prepare for a second battle, he will get to close and will lose to the Lizard. He actually would have a better chance if Connors had his mind because that Lizard had morals, a Lizard without Connors mind is pretty much blood lusted.

Thanks. Glad that people are liking the scans.

@mrgreenlantern said:

Kaine might not have the speed advantage but lets keep in mind the stealth suit gives him the upper hand if he wanted to hit and run. Kaine tries to hit hard and fast until Connors inevitably gets a hold of him from there Kaine would either need to hold on for dear life with the mark of Kaine while at the same time firing off projectile stingers into Connor's head

I dont think many can take that kind of head trauma without being incapacitated

EDIT: Kaine's durability will hold out long enough to melt Connor's face while at the same time blinding him with the stingers

everyone seems to forget this is not Spider-man...we're dealing with someone stronger and arguably faster than pete with nothing against killing another human let alone a monster like the lizard

Kaine has only used the hit and run tactic once off the top of my head. While it is something which can happen I don't think it would happen that way in every single scenario. That is probably Kaines best bet. As for dealing with spider-man, yea Kaine is faster and stronger, however in regards to being more brutal Peter has stated he doesn't hold back on Lizard. And as far as speed goes, as I said Kaine is faster but he doesn't really use his speed in the same manner as Peter. He gets tagged more often, IMO its due to the fact his fighting style is more aggressive.

Edited by jashro44

In Spider-Man's last fight with lizard In No Going Back Peter couldn't beat the Lizard BEFORE he got that upgrade at the end of the story. The opening scene is of Peter Fighting The Lizard and him saying he has no idea how many hours they've been fighting for. Even with the arrival of Morbius they couldn't physically beat him after stabbing him with harpoons. AFTER the upgrade Connor gets thrown through reinforced steel panels with no harm done to him. Lizard then speed blitzed Peter. The only reason Peter wasn't killed was because Connor's human side was making all civilians look like Martha and Billy, and Peter looked like Connor. As Peter was holding the final cure harpoon with the arm Connor was missing The Lizard didn't see what Peter was doing...... Which was stabbing him from under the jaw and into his brain. The Harpoon then explodes inside the Lizards head, and he survives. The harpoon didn't physically restore Connor but mentally did so it's implied that if "The Lizard" was still in control he could have kept fighting, but Connor wanted to be punished so he didn't. Note Spiderman Shoved Harpoon clear through the Lizards head, if someone could dig up a scan it could seem that it's as graphic as described.

On another note it seems these votes are based more on popularity and people aren't even reading these arguements, as most arguements here seem to prove The Lizard should win this fight yet Kaine is winning in votes ( at the time of me writing this)

Heres the fight you're talking about with pre upgrade lizard:

Edited by w0nd

@k4tzm4n said:

@alkusanagi said:

Seems pretty one-sided. Spidey regularly defeats the Lizard, and Kaine is a much meaner version of him.

The introduction literally points out the fact that Spider-Man often requires a plot device to defeat Curt -- he's regularly stated that Lizard's too durable for his fists alone (even when admitting to not holding back). No one here is obtaining an easy victory.

yeah but Kaine has venomous spikes that come out of his hand, and he is stronger than spider-man so that might make it a bit more one sided.And he may not be as "fast" as spider-man but he is still insanely fast. He has no spider sense and he regularly avoids attacks and gun fire with his speed alone. People are making it sound like Kaine is extremely slow but not sure why. Lizards attacks are up close and personal. While he comes in snarling that's all it would really take to stab him in the heart.

Posted by jashro44

@w0nd said:

yeah but Kaine has venomous spikes that come out of his hand, and he is stronger than spider-man so that might make it a bit more one sided.And he may not be as "fast" as spider-man but he is still insanely fast. He has no spider sense and he regularly avoids attacks and gun fire with his speed alone.

Lots of street levellers avoid gunfire. Not many dance around spider-man and basically blitz him though. Stingers help but considering Lizards healing factor its hardly an auto win.

Edited by w0nd

@jashro44 said:

@w0nd said:

yeah but Kaine has venomous spikes that come out of his hand, and he is stronger than spider-man so that might make it a bit more one sided.And he may not be as "fast" as spider-man but he is still insanely fast. He has no spider sense and he regularly avoids attacks and gun fire with his speed alone.

Lots of street levellers avoid gunfire. Not many dance around spider-man and basically blitz him though. Stingers help but considering Lizards healing factor its hardly an auto win.

hardly a win but it's a slight edge. It makes up for the lack of speed, but he has dodged energy blasts lightning point blank attacks just fine. Idk his brutality and strength may make up for it. He seemed right at home fighting carnage who's healing factor is arguable better than lizards. He also took on and cut harvester in half, a speedster...so that has to count for something.

Posted by ShadowPro
  • Combatants are in character (aka morals apply for both).

here we have contradiction of terms, kaine doesn't rally have moral, he has aracely who is his concience and voice of reason but, not moral at all

now, I'm confused, I see peple arguing here, but aren't we supposed to do in the other thread?

Posted by jashro44

@w0nd said:

@jashro44 said:

@w0nd said:

yeah but Kaine has venomous spikes that come out of his hand, and he is stronger than spider-man so that might make it a bit more one sided.And he may not be as "fast" as spider-man but he is still insanely fast. He has no spider sense and he regularly avoids attacks and gun fire with his speed alone.

Lots of street levellers avoid gunfire. Not many dance around spider-man and basically blitz him though. Stingers help but considering Lizards healing factor its hardly an auto win.

hardly a win but it's a slight edge. It makes up for the lack of speed, but he has dodged energy blasts lightning point blank attacks just fine. Idk his brutality and strength may make up for it. He seemed right at home fighting carnage who's healing factor is arguable better than lizards. He also took on and cut harvester in half, a speedster...so that has to count for something.

Spider-man has dodged energy blasts and lightning lots of times. It didn't stop lizard from blitzing him. Carnage was toying with him, and yes Kaine took cuts from harvestar well lizard recently was conscious after a stab to the brain. Tanking slashes from a speedster are not compareable to Lizard regenerating a hole in chest either.

Posted by w0nd

@jashro44 said:

@w0nd said:

@jashro44 said:

@w0nd said:

yeah but Kaine has venomous spikes that come out of his hand, and he is stronger than spider-man so that might make it a bit more one sided.And he may not be as "fast" as spider-man but he is still insanely fast. He has no spider sense and he regularly avoids attacks and gun fire with his speed alone.

Lots of street levellers avoid gunfire. Not many dance around spider-man and basically blitz him though. Stingers help but considering Lizards healing factor its hardly an auto win.

hardly a win but it's a slight edge. It makes up for the lack of speed, but he has dodged energy blasts lightning point blank attacks just fine. Idk his brutality and strength may make up for it. He seemed right at home fighting carnage who's healing factor is arguable better than lizards. He also took on and cut harvester in half, a speedster...so that has to count for something.

Spider-man has dodged energy blasts and lightning lots of times. It didn't stop lizard from blitzing him. Carnage was toying with him, and yes Kaine took cuts from harvestar well lizard recently was conscious after a stab to the brain. Tanking slashes from a speedster are not compareable to Lizard regenerating a hole in chest either.

It wasn't so much that he took slashes from the speedster, it was that by the end of it he was able to counter the speedsters moves and then cut him in half. If he was fast enough to eventually avoid being his by a speedster why couldn't he do the same for lizard?

Posted by jashro44

@w0nd: Because that speedster has no feats aside from his showings against Kaine. What makes you say Lizard couldn't do the same?

Edited by Experio

Lizard