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Ron Marz On How To Write A Strong Female Character

We caught up with comic writer Ron Marz to find out how he goes about writing strong, interesting and sexy women in comics

If you are a male writer in a male dominated industry (i.e. comics) writing female characters you often deal with some scrutiny from readers who question whether your portrayal of that female character is appropriate and whether or not it is "sexist."

No Caption Provided

The dictionary definition of "sexism" is A) an attitude or behavior based on traditional stereotypes and sexual roles and B) discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex. And while the definition may seem pretty simple, it's still incredibly broad. When we apply it to the characterization of female characters in comics we are left with a lot of room to speculate whether or not the way a character is being portrayed is in fact "sexist." It's no wonder, either, since for most of the time comic books have existed they have been a little bit, well, sexist. Instead of delving into whether or not this is true (there are plenty of articles online you can read that would reinforce this idea) it's best to step back and ask ourselves what it is that makes writing female characters so difficult for some writers, and how is it different from writing a male character.

== TEASER ==
Marc Silvestri's WITCHBLADE
Marc Silvestri's WITCHBLADE

When a creator takes the reigns of a female character driven title the last thing they want to be perceived as is sexist. They don't want to write a character who is shallow, who is confined to traditional gender stereotypes and whose sole existence is to be "eye candy." But it wasn't always this way.

Much of the comics from the 90's saw success because they catered to this very overly-sexualized image of female characters. In fact, the popular art style of the time really reinforced the over-sexualization of women in comic books. Artists like Michael Turner, Marc Silvestri, David Finch and Jim Lee all tended to draw women in very provocative ways. But it wasn't just the art that reinforced this idea; a lot of the writing implied that women often existed solely to push the plot; that they didn't have any real value to the story.

Take for example, Witchblade in the 90's written and drawn by Marc Silvestri; the books were aesthetically pleasing, but the stories did not do a very good job portraying Sara Pezzini as this very tough as nails, strong female character. In fact, before writer Ron Marz came on board, Sara spent a lot of time having her clothes ripped off in practically every issue.

Some would say Ron Marz revolutionized Sara Pezzini and breathed new life into her character during his run of WITCHBLADE which lasted for 70 issues. You can practically see the evolution of her character based on the covers to WITCHBLADE -- she may have started in a metal bikini, but by the end of Ron's run Sara would suit up in full armor. And when she wasn't decked out in metal, she was in a crew neck t-shirt, jeans sporting her police badge. It wasn't just the imagery that Marz changed, it was the character herself. Sara matured under Ron's pen, coming into her own. She became a Mother and a considerably more self aware cop, too. She was interesting, and very different from her original incarnation. Under Ron, Sara Pezzini was given a chance to evolve. And she did.

We decided to ask Ron how he goes about writing a solid female character and what qualities and characteristics the character would need to have. Check out his response, below.

"I honestly don't approach writing female characters any differently than I approach writing male characters. I try to write individuals, and I try to write them so they're as three-dimensional as possible. Obviously someone's sex is one of the traits that factor into it, but it's certainly not the only one. A believable character needs to have both positive and negative aspects to their personality, so I try to build that into anyone I write."

"If there's one constant in the way I approach writing women, it's probably that I try to write them as more emotionally mature than men. I just feel like that's pretty often the case in real life. For me, a 'strong' character has nothing to do with physical strength, it's about the strength of their will, their resolve. I watched my wife give birth to all three of our kids, completely natural childbirth with no drugs, no pain meds, nothing except her strength and determination. You can't come away from witnessing something like that without a better understanding of how strong a woman can be. That warrior mentality I saw in my wife is definitely something I draw upon."

"But I should add that you have to balance that strength with some vulnerability, or the character doesn't come across as believable. Someone can be an ass-kicking hero and still be vulnerable or even needy at times. The important thing, I think, is making sure your heroine isn't defined by or seen as secondary to the men in her life. That 'damsel in distress' stuff is bullshit. One of the reasons I have a problem with 'Twilight' is that Bella's character is defined by sparkly vampire boy. Her primary character arc is to get a boyfriend. Lame."
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I can't speak for everyone, but I have to admit I agree with Ron about the overall goals the character should have. If all she is doing is chasing after some sparkly vampire, I can't say that makes her very appealing.

She should be more than just a girl who is on this quest for a boyfriend. The fact that she wants to be in a relationship shouldn't define her.

Often female character are portrayed as being very sexy. The issue is ensuring that the character maintains her sexuality and her sexiness without being exploited and oversexualized. That is often a big challenge for writers.

For Ron, you can have a sexy woman. You can have a strong woman who happens to work in the sex industry (i.e. Voodoo) but if that's the only quality that defines her, then it becomes a problem.

"Everyone has their own definition of sexy. I think that's one of the reasons it's always such a hot-button topic. One person's sexy is another person's slutty. For me, it comes down to making sense in the story. In Witchblade, it never made sense to me that Sara was running around in, essentially, a metal bikini. So the first thing we did was get rid of that within the story and put her armor. We've still done some sexy scenes, when Sara's been with her boyfriend, or with Jackie Estacado, but it's story-driven. It's a question of who you're serving -- the characters and the story, or the segment of the audience that's apparently too shy to go buy a copy of Playboy. I honestly have no interest in catering to that audience."

"The reaction to the first issue of Voodoo was fascinating to me, because they were people who simply could not accept an issue set in a strip club, and there were people who looked beyond that to see why it was part of the story. I saw the issue was called sexist and misogynist, and I saw it called subversive and smart. Again, everybody has their own definition of what's sexy and what's exploitation. My line is different is different than your line."

"I thought it was interesting that the people who were riled up about the issue were invariably upset about the strip club, and not the murder at the end of the issue. That was hardly even mentioned. Ultimately, as a writer I'm more concerned with what characters are doing, with what they're thinking and feeling, rather than what they are or aren't wearing. If you told a story about Mata Hari, sex would be part of it, but that wouldn't make her any less of a strong woman. Just the opposite, in fact."

Clearly, Marz not only has experience writing strong, sexy women for comic books; but he's done so successfully. And while he is off of VOODOO, we are definitely looking forward to seeing what he has up his sleeve for the future. What do you think of Ron Marz's perspective? Do you agree with his thoughts on how to write a strong female character successfully?

Be sure to come back next week as we will be posing the same question to writer Greg Rucka (BATWOMAN, WONDER WOMAN) to get his take on how he goes about writing strong women in comics.

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BoOMbOoMpOw

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Edited By BoOMbOoMpOw

Great article :D I definetly agree with what you and marz say ! I started reading witchblade when marz took on the writing and later after I read the past issues I was so shocked !!!! I really didn`t know that marz was the one who made the series work, It was just dump and made no sense that she got her clothes ripped off in every second issue . Now I love Witchblade Angelus and everything else Marz wrote in the Top cow universe and I`m so sad that he is leaving witchblade :( I hope the next writer doesn`t mess everything up again. And I`m very very excited about what Greck Rucka is going to say :D Batwoman -->One of the best DC books I ever read !!!!

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BoOMbOoMpOw

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Edited By BoOMbOoMpOw

And boy is that Batman panel above awful !!!!!! O.O

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darth_brendroid

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Edited By darth_brendroid

I've just done NaNoWriMo with a male and female lead. I don't think I have to worry about some of what Marz has said since there's an immediate problem my characters have to overcome so any other goals are kinda secondary to that. Still, they have their quirks. I have my lead female drag lead male around some of the time and I'm pretty sure she's the dominant one in their character relationship. Then I've got another one where I have a younger female lead and Marz's advice becomes a bit more useful. Just she's never encountered anything like what she's being faced with and she's not the strongest or most suitable person in the room, but I do give her a gun and she does figure out how to use it properly. Favourited this page and looking forward to Rucka's - I agree with the comment just to write the character as if you're writing a character. Apparently Alien was written like that too; just characters with no gender applied and Scott just cast actors. Nice article at any rate!

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DomDom

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Edited By DomDom

good article! =)
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Joe Venom

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Edited By Joe Venom

Say what you will about Babs, but nothing gets hits on the news feeds as much as her controversial topics.....well you know other than those Megan Fox topics

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jsphsmth

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Edited By jsphsmth

@fishyboy: It is great that you read his early stuff featuring male characters, but that is not the scope of this article.

Maybe you should go re-read Voodoo with both hands and then you will see why he was featured in this article.

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fishyboy

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Edited By fishyboy

@jsphsmth said:

@fishyboy: It is great that you read his early stuff featuring male characters, but that is not the scope of this article.

Maybe you should go re-read Voodoo with both hands and then you will see why he was featured in this article.

What a ridiculous statement.

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Aarny2

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@fishyboy said:

Haha, what? Ron Marz writes strong female characters?

I thought Ron Marz wrote hypersexualized half-naked wank fodder for 15 year old boys.

Seriously.

This.

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MetallicMercury

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Edited By MetallicMercury

That's why I like X-23, yes, her character was a former prostitute (but there are different issues in that itself, but I'm not going into that) but that doesn't define her character. Over-sexualisation and promiscuity isn't why people buy it (before it was cancelled), it's for the good story line and the strong female character.

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-Vigil-

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Edited By -Vigil-

Sorry, but to me if you focus on the "sexy", you lose a lot of the "strong". I'm glad that Witchblade seems to have changed somewhat. It makes me have some respect for the writers and artists not afraid to portray a superheroine that wears clothes, even though that cuts down on some of their audience.

Also, "strong" does not mean sexist against men. It infuriates me to see how many people believe it does. In my opinion, part of strength is the humility to believe your gender the equal of the other gender, not the superior, and that goes for women and men.

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-Vigil-

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@Joe Venom said:

I never did like that word......'Sexism' especially when used in comics, they may as well just add "of woman" to the end of the definition because it's already one sided. Kudos to writers that manage to make great female characters when the margin between being creative and accusations of sexism was so thin, and a 'Right On' to those who didn't give a #%$*!

I've been saying that for years.

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Doctor!!!!!

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Edited By Doctor!!!!!

This makes it seem really really easy to make a strong female character, who is hot, and looks good in anything that doesn't offend anybody.

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danhimself

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Edited By danhimself

@RazzaTazz said:

@lykopis said:

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@danhimself said:

I wish that people would get over this sexism in comics trend....it's ridiculous...it's not ok to show women who are eye candy but it's fine to characters like Namor running around? again....ridiculous

Agreed. It's a double edged sword. When they stop drawing men in skin tight outfits with bulging muscles, maybe I'll feel different.

Maybe when they show men in sexualized positions, maybe I will feel different. But then, that would be even worse because we'll be going backwards instead of forward. Either way - to each their own, I respect your take on it.

I might add that the image of a musclebound male is one that is highly desirable to most men, whereas I only know a few women that would want to look like the extremes of comic book women.

you're telling me that only a "few" women want to look like Victoria's Secret models?

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RazzaTazz

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Edited By RazzaTazz
@danhimself said:

@RazzaTazz said:

@lykopis said:

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@danhimself said:

I wish that people would get over this sexism in comics trend....it's ridiculous...it's not ok to show women who are eye candy but it's fine to characters like Namor running around? again....ridiculous

Agreed. It's a double edged sword. When they stop drawing men in skin tight outfits with bulging muscles, maybe I'll feel different.

Maybe when they show men in sexualized positions, maybe I will feel different. But then, that would be even worse because we'll be going backwards instead of forward. Either way - to each their own, I respect your take on it.

I might add that the image of a musclebound male is one that is highly desirable to most men, whereas I only know a few women that would want to look like the extremes of comic book women.

you're telling me that only a "few" women want to look like Victoria's Secret models?

Exactly
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Gordo789

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Edited By Gordo789

Hmm.... I feel like this discussion would be better had with Greg Rucka. Kate Kane's character in his Batwoman run is one of the most incredible female characters I've ever seen in comics. Reading Voodoo right now and ehhhhhh...

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AwesomeAquaman

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Edited By AwesomeAquaman

@RazzaTazz said:

@lykopis said:

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@danhimself said:

I wish that people would get over this sexism in comics trend....it's ridiculous...it's not ok to show women who are eye candy but it's fine to characters like Namor running around? again....ridiculous

Agreed. It's a double edged sword. When they stop drawing men in skin tight outfits with bulging muscles, maybe I'll feel different.

Maybe when they show men in sexualized positions, maybe I will feel different. But then, that would be even worse because we'll be going backwards instead of forward. Either way - to each their own, I respect your take on it.

I might add that the image of a musclebound male is one that is highly desirable to most men, whereas I only know a few women that would want to look like the extremes of comic book women.

I don't know, if you look at romance novel covers which are aimed at women, you see the same things in most men in comics.

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Mercy_

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Edited By Mercy_

@-Vigil- said:

Sorry, but to me if you focus on the "sexy", you lose a lot of the "strong". I'm glad that Witchblade seems to have changed somewhat. It makes me have some respect for the writers and artists not afraid to portray a superheroine that wears clothes, even though that cuts down on some of their audience.

Also, "strong" does not mean sexist against men. It infuriates me to see how many people believe it does. In my opinion, part of strength is the humility to believe your gender the equal of the other gender, not the superior, and that goes for women and men.

Well said.

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difficlus

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Edited By difficlus

@RazzaTazz said:

@danhimself said:

@RazzaTazz said:

@lykopis said:

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@danhimself said:

I wish that people would get over this sexism in comics trend....it's ridiculous...it's not ok to show women who are eye candy but it's fine to characters like Namor running around? again....ridiculous

Agreed. It's a double edged sword. When they stop drawing men in skin tight outfits with bulging muscles, maybe I'll feel different.

Maybe when they show men in sexualized positions, maybe I will feel different. But then, that would be even worse because we'll be going backwards instead of forward. Either way - to each their own, I respect your take on it.

I might add that the image of a musclebound male is one that is highly desirable to most men, whereas I only know a few women that would want to look like the extremes of comic book women.

you're telling me that only a "few" women want to look like Victoria's Secret models?

Exactly

well that too much generalization either way. i know a few girls who are actually sad they can't look like these models or porn stars.

@The Dark Huntress said:

@-Vigil- said:

Sorry, but to me if you focus on the "sexy", you lose a lot of the "strong". I'm glad that Witchblade seems to have changed somewhat. It makes me have some respect for the writers and artists not afraid to portray a superheroine that wears clothes, even though that cuts down on some of their audience.

Also, "strong" does not mean sexist against men. It infuriates me to see how many people believe it does. In my opinion, part of strength is the humility to believe your gender the equal of the other gender, not the superior, and that goes for women and men.

Well said.

QFT *applause*

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RazzaTazz

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Edited By RazzaTazz
@difficlus said:

@RazzaTazz said:

@danhimself said:

@RazzaTazz said:

@lykopis said:

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@danhimself said:

I wish that people would get over this sexism in comics trend....it's ridiculous...it's not ok to show women who are eye candy but it's fine to characters like Namor running around? again....ridiculous

Agreed. It's a double edged sword. When they stop drawing men in skin tight outfits with bulging muscles, maybe I'll feel different.

Maybe when they show men in sexualized positions, maybe I will feel different. But then, that would be even worse because we'll be going backwards instead of forward. Either way - to each their own, I respect your take on it.

I might add that the image of a musclebound male is one that is highly desirable to most men, whereas I only know a few women that would want to look like the extremes of comic book women.

you're telling me that only a "few" women want to look like Victoria's Secret models?

Exactly

well that too much generalization either way. i know a few girls who are actually sad they can't look like these models or porn stars.


I also said I know a few ;)
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lykopis

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@-Vigil- said:

Sorry, but to me if you focus on the "sexy", you lose a lot of the "strong". I'm glad that Witchblade seems to have changed somewhat. It makes me have some respect for the writers and artists not afraid to portray a superheroine that wears clothes, even though that cuts down on some of their audience.

Also, "strong" does not mean sexist against men. It infuriates me to see how many people believe it does. In my opinion, part of strength is the humility to believe your gender the equal of the other gender, not the superior, and that goes for women and men.

Exactly. :) Thank you.

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OldManJoe

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Edited By OldManJoe

This is one of the many reasons I read the X-23 series.

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CapFanboy

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@fishyboy said:

Haha, what? Ron Marz writes strong female characters?

I thought Ron Marz wrote hypersexualized half-naked wank fodder for 15 year old boys.

Seriously.

Aww c'mon, kids visit this site! You don't want them asking their parents what w*** is
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movieartman

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Edited By movieartman

thoose like me who are very sadened that marz is off witchblade as is the artist Sejic they will be togethor on the now ongoing top cow series Artifacts witch witchblade/sara pezzini will no question end up appearing in again. for thoose that are unaware in the top cow universe there are 13 artifacts the witchblade, the darkness,the spear of destiny weilded by the madgdalena are 3 of them they have there own series. artifacts was orinaly just a big event in this universe witch would finaly reveal the other artifacts. but after this first big 13 issue arc it will contininue on in to an ongoing and will concentrate on the other artifacts including the Angelus which marz/sejic did a supurb 6 issue series for a while back. i pray voodoo works out. but i wouldnt sacrfice marz on artifacts for it or rucka on batwman. i hope the new teams for both voodoo and witchblade make us and there predoccors proud

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The_Peter_Cosmic

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@lykopis said:

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@danhimself said:

I wish that people would get over this sexism in comics trend....it's ridiculous...it's not ok to show women who are eye candy but it's fine to characters like Namor running around? again....ridiculous

Agreed. It's a double edged sword. When they stop drawing men in skin tight outfits with bulging muscles, maybe I'll feel different.

Maybe when they show men in sexualized positions, maybe I will feel different. But then, that would be even worse because we'll be going backwards instead of forward. Either way - to each their own, I respect your take on it.

That's the thing I take issue with and the nuanced part of the argument that many people never think of. I was considering this while doing cardio the other day (it's boring, my mind wanders, and I'm a bit of a people watcher). The gym where I do most of my workouts is geared toward toward physique athletes (bodybuilding, fitness/figure competitors), i.e. people who look like comic book characters. Yeah, you will often see us working out it tight clothes like underarmour and women often are working out in small shorts and sports bras, but we are working out damn hard. No one physically exerts themselves while purposely displaying their sexual organs and making sex faces. It makes sense for superheros to wear form fitting, compression type clothing. Just look at what powerlifters wear to meets or what gymnasts wear in competition. The problem in comics comes from the fact that the women are often portrayed like they are literally "presenting" for sex. You can't realistically argue that male characters are reduced to sexual objects like that.

Also, I've never seen Namor's scaly little speedo mysteriously become a thong like Psylocke's costume seems to do.

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AwesomeAquaman

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@The_Peter_Cosmic: What women find attractive and what men find attractive are generally not the same. What one man/woman find attractive doesn't mean all men/women find it attractive.

No Caption Provided

Romance novels caters specifically towards women, and all the general contents that are used to entice women are also found in comics. No I don't think women would want to see a man bend over in a thong in flexible positions, but they generally want to see muscular, confident, strong, dominant men.

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AwesomeAquaman

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SC

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Edited By SC  Moderator
@AwesomeAquaman:  I think a criticism of your argument, is about applying discretion between wish fulfillment reading and other types. Like romance novels and comics are very different mediums. Its a point the beginning if this thread points out by dragging Twilight into this. Its similar to comparing comics and porn. Most porn is designed for heterosexual males, and has males in them, but that doesn't mean that guys want to see guys in porn the same way they want to see guys in comics.  
 
Its not so much about excluding some depictions, but the balance of depictions. Since people have diverse tastes and preferences. Just like in the threads you reference, there are shots of guys cracks, with pants pulled down low, but your comic example? There will probably be some if you look hard enough, but the balance against female examples? Men and women both, want to see women and men that are actually empowering or strong or original but probably not too much of one thing. Then context as well. 
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The_Peter_Cosmic

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@AwesomeAquaman said:

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@The_Peter_Cosmic: Also, let me extend what I was saying with this: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/off-topic/5/the-hotsexybuffextremely-attractive-men-thread/603819/

Both males and females are posting in that thread from this forum showing what they think is attractive in a man. And here are some examples, I also included similar artist depictions from comics too.

Both men and women find those types of images to be appealing. Those images could very well appear in straight men's magazines as advertisements. Those men are seen as powerful and something men would like to be. However...

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Yeah, the images aren't equivalent at all. I have no problem with superheroes of either gender being sexually appealing or attractive, I actually prefer it that way. The difference is women who are supposed to be incredibly powerful are often portrayed as sexual objects. They are literally drawn in positions as though they were a "bitch in heat" submissively presenting. It makes the characters inherently less human and harder for women to relate to. That just doesn't happen to male characters on the same scale and you're kidding yourself if you think it does.

The Namor thong comment was just meant to be a facetious aside, btw. Maybe I should have put "LOL" in, but it seemed obvious to me at the time.

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lykopis

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@The_Peter_Cosmic said:

@lykopis said:

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@danhimself said:

I wish that people would get over this sexism in comics trend....it's ridiculous...it's not ok to show women who are eye candy but it's fine to characters like Namor running around? again....ridiculous

Agreed. It's a double edged sword. When they stop drawing men in skin tight outfits with bulging muscles, maybe I'll feel different.

Maybe when they show men in sexualized positions, maybe I will feel different. But then, that would be even worse because we'll be going backwards instead of forward. Either way - to each their own, I respect your take on it.

That's the thing I take issue with and the nuanced part of the argument that many people never think of. I was considering this while doing cardio the other day (it's boring, my mind wanders, and I'm a bit of a people watcher). The gym where I do most of my workouts is geared toward toward physique athletes (bodybuilding, fitness/figure competitors), i.e. people who look like comic book characters. Yeah, you will often see us working out it tight clothes like underarmour and women often are working out in small shorts and sports bras, but we are working out damn hard. No one physically exerts themselves while purposely displaying their sexual organs and making sex faces. It makes sense for superheros to wear form fitting, compression type clothing. Just look at what powerlifters wear to meets or what gymnasts wear in competition. The problem in comics comes from the fact that the women are often portrayed like they are literally "presenting" for sex. You can't realistically argue that male characters are reduced to sexual objects like that.

Also, I've never seen Namor's scaly little speedo mysteriously become a thong like Psylocke's costume seems to do.

This is exactly right. It's one thing to draw beautiful, strong super-heroes and another to have one gender more subject to unnecessary poses that clearly are inspired by Playboy.

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@AwesomeAquaman said:

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@The_Peter_Cosmic: Also, let me extend what I was saying with this: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/off-topic/5/the-hotsexybuffextremely-attractive-men-thread/603819/

Both males and females are posting in that thread from this forum showing what they think is attractive in a man. And here are some examples, I also included similar artist depictions from comics too.

First off, thank you so much for all the time and effort you've expended on your side by side comparison of "real" men to comic men. I do believe you have chosen these images from my extensive "Dog-Tag" series that I have been contributing to that thread over the past few weeks? Yes, these images are of men I find extremely attractive - I could hardly submit photos of any of them in various positions of coital enjoyment as that would be against the rules. I think we both agree that aesthetically pleasing images of either sex is pleasurable for either/or gender - but the issue of how they are presented is what I am calling out when it pertains to comics.

But d@mn - well done.

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Spin it however you like, men are just as objectified.

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Why isn't he writing Voodoo any more?

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@AwesomeAquaman said:

Spin it however you like, men are just as objectified.

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Are those actually heroes that you are supposed to be able to relate to or is it just a portrayal of male strippers? I think you might be misunderstanding my point. I don't have a problem with sexuality or even nudity in comics, that's fine with me. I have a problem with female characters being blatantly reduced to objects even at times where it makes zero sense like in the middle of a fight. Also, yes, you can find an occasional panel with a little guy candy in it, but I'm posting covers here. These are the main images that are often associated with females and it's in no way anomalous.

Who the hell fights like this?
Who the hell fights like this?
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@Or35ti: He was asked/told to leave by DC. “The only thing I was told was that they wanted a different direction for the book.”

Speculation: Marz started the comic very last minute, unlike most other creative teams for the DC Nu. It may never have been DC's intent to have him write Voodoo long-term. They never would admit that publicly, as it would have hurt the promotion and sales of the new comic.

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Im surprised no on had posted a remark about Michael Turner's character Aspen from the Fathom series. Needless to say he created strong female characters that had that "I can do anything cause Im that strong" feel.

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@The_Peter_Cosmic: But you do have a problem with sexuality and nudity? That's the point isn't it?

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@AwesomeAquaman said:

Spin it however you like, men are just as objectified.

No Caption Provided

I agree that men are objectified as well, but not "just as" much as women. It is equally wrong, but unequally demonstrated in the comic book industry. Both genders are presented unrealisticly in their physical forms, and both genders are dressed to accentuate their bodies, but female characters are more often drawn in sexually suggestive poses than men. That's what I am pointing out - and again, this is my opinion.

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@AwesomeAquaman said:

Spin it however you like, men are just as objectified.

No Caption Provided
 
 
Is it so wise to choose an example written by a female writer deliberately trying to balance the massive gender imbalance she sees in comics and is known for humour and equality and trying to get new readers into comics and often criticizes gender depictions in comics and writers and fans ignorance and ineptitude? The same writer that had female strippers in a similar role in her Secret Six title, (above was Birds of Prey right?) thus emphasizing the need for more equal gender depiction, and that its not about only having one gender treated better in comics, or catered to exclusively out of comics, but better treatment for both in, and trying not to undermine either gender of fan, outside of the pages - like actual equality and not ignorant, flawed, understandings of it.  
 
What kind of spin are we talking about here, the type Bill O'Reilly puts an end to? lol 
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I think its indicative of the lack of argument, is that in trying to justify cheesecake and sexualized depictions of female superheroes and the disproportionate ratio one has to try and explain that males are as objectified... by comparing Witchblade, Psylocke, and any other named female hero... to random anonymous (wait, wait is that Mr September in one panel) male strippers, in a strip club, in a book written by Gail Simone, one of the few writers that actually practices what she preaches and gives out all flavors of cheese and beef cake like a modern day Willy Wonka.  
 
Ah, the great gender debate has been halted by the realization that the best way to draw a badass female ninja mutant hero and main star of a book is ass first towards the reader just like random anonymous male strippers working in a strip club appearing on page 12 one time in a book written by a pervert. =p

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@SC: Clearly you don't understand the context of what I was trying to say with that image, I KNOW that was from Birds of Prey by Gail Simone.

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@AwesomeAquaman said:

@SC: Clearly you don't understand the context of what I was trying to say with that image, I KNOW that was from Birds of Prey by Gail Simone.

 
Clearly you don't know the irony of trying to claim that "men are just as objectified" by citing a writer who has clearly said and almost made a career of saying the exact opposite of what you said clearly.  
 
Clearly. So you either clearly don't understand the irony or you clearly think that what they want to convey clearly doesn't match their attitude. Is that clearly clear for you? =p
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@SC: You're not gonna understand it, and I wont bother trying because I don't understand that tripe you put out. So I'll leave it at that.

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@AwesomeAquaman said:

@SC: You're not gonna understand it, and I wont bother trying because I don't understand that tripe you put out. So I'll leave it at that.

 
Maybe... you can hire male strippers? Then an oil boy? Then he can oil them up, then the male strippers can spell out the letters? You know, like YMCA arm movements? Human alphabet letters right?  
 
So all these male strippers can clearly, with clarity and uttermost transparency, spell out your clear message for me, so I can understand? More clearly? Since I am trying to understand, how one example you use of male strippers in a strip club, written by a female writer who clearly says, that women are MORE objectified in comics, is evidence of male characters, being AS objectified. AS in
 
@AwesomeAquaman said:

men are just AS objectified.

 
AS objectified.  
 
When the argument against, is clearly, clearly not that no male has ever not been objectified in a comic, BUT the proportion, balance, and context of objectification between two genders.  
 
Hey, I'll bother trying, but I am cool with you not trying. *smile* Take care, spike your hair. *grin* 
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@SC: Your condescending demeanor is quite becoming.

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@AwesomeAquaman said:

@SC: Your condescending demeanor is quite becoming.

 
Nah, its not condescending. If you feel it was condescending, then I sincerely apologize. You know what's condescending to me personally? When posters use the word "clearly" in discussions when hardly anything is clear? Except instead of me being presumptuous over whether your being condescending? I have the good will and humor to admit maybe your intent isn't to be condescending? So I shouldn't really consider you as such based on my own interpretation. Pat on the back for me eh for extending that sort of good will to my fellow man?  
 
Plus something like that would be off topic discussion. I am here to talk about gender in comics, and since talking about anything comic related to me is fun, I have fun when I talk about it. Don't you have fun talking about comics? So I am sorry if you took my light hearted comments to you as condescending, maybe it wasn't that clear to you?  
 
I'll leave it that... (unless you reply to me, then of course I'll want to get the last word naturally and so sneak back in to reply again despite saying that I'll leave it at that?) See? That's me making fun of both of us. Now you know my intent and knowing is half the battle *smile* 
 
 
So back on topic... strippers! Whose with me! 
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I believe the views in the article are spot on because they are obvious. To write a good character, in general, dimensions and depth are needed. Something both Women and Men in comics lack on several occasions. The problem here lies in the fact that women are purposefully oversexualized in order to bring in a certain audience (the sex curious). And there seems to be a consensuses on what a sexy women is: unrealistic breast sizes, slim waist and large hips. Then they are reduced to positions of showing off the bust or the butt. I think the creators or artists themselves need to be more aware of a woman's form and that could mean looking into fashion magazines or modeling shows to get an idea of how to depict women as fierce, sexy, or casual and not so much pin-up.  
 
As for sexism in story writing I think the ratios are about the same. The percentage of uninteresting/stereotypical men in comics is about the same percentage for women. There is just less women depicted in general.

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@AwesomeAquaman said:

@The_Peter_Cosmic: But you do have a problem with sexuality and nudity? That's the point isn't it?

No, I don't have a problem with sexuality or nudity. I think that sexuality is a very important part of the human experience and I find both the female form and the muscular male form to be very beautiful.

Let's compare Dick Grayson and Psylocke, though, for a minute. Both of those character could be considered beautiful, graceful, and sexy. The difference is that you will never see Dick Grayson pulling his waistband down to show off his hipbones and pubes while making his best sex face like an Abercrombie and Fitch model in the middle of a fight. Clearly, it would would be ridiculous and out out of character for him. Psylocke, on the other hand, is very often subjected to that type of sexual exploitation even on the cover of her own starring comics. It's just as ridiculous and out of character for her as it is for Dick, but it happens all the time. That's where the sexism and the double standard comes into play.

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@The_Peter_Cosmic said:

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@The_Peter_Cosmic: But you do have a problem with sexuality and nudity? That's the point isn't it?

No, I don't have a problem with sexuality or nudity. I think that sexuality is a very important part of the human experience and I find both the female form and the muscular male form to be very beautiful.

Let's compare Dick Grayson and Psylocke, though, for a minute. Both of those character could be considered beautiful, graceful, and sexy. The difference is that you will never see Dick Grayson pulling his waistband down to show off his hipbones and pubes while making his best sex face like an Abercrombie and Fitch model in the middle of a fight. Clearly, it would would be ridiculous and out out of character for him. Psylocke, on the other hand, is very often subjected to that type of sexual exploitation even on the cover of her own starring comics. It's just as ridiculous and out of character for her as it is for Dick, but it happens all the time. That's where the sexism and the double standard comes into play.

Yes, that is a great sum up of your argument!

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@SC: You're not gonna understand it, and I wont bother trying because I don't understand that tripe you put out. So I'll leave it at that.

Ok - Really confused...

@AwesomeAquaman said:

@SC: Clearly you don't understand the context of what I was trying to say with that image, I KNOW that was from Birds of Prey by Gail Simone.

Like...

He was very specifically saying that the reason your argument lacked was because it was from a writer who campaigns equality. You are saying "Men are being treated as badly."

What I SEE there, is Gail equalling out the battlefield. I mean, there are tonnes of females half naked - so what is wrong with males being so?

Do you understand? I mean, she is conveying her message through a different way, yes, but really it is one of equality.

You however seem to think that because 1 panel comes up - suddenly males are constantly being portrayed like this?

Again - this is Gail, the argument falters simply because of your example.

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@lykopis:

First off, thank you so much for all the time and effort you've expended on your side by side comparison of "real" men to comic men. I do believe you have chosen these images from my extensive "Dog-Tag" series that I have been contributing to that thread over the past few weeks? Yes, these images are of men I find extremely attractive - I could hardly submit photos of any of them in various positions of coital enjoyment as that would be against the rules. I think we both agree that aesthetically pleasing images of either sex is pleasurable for either/or gender - but the issue of how they are presented is what I am calling out when it pertains to comics.

HAHA!

Excellente!