Stats-Normal
Prep-1 Year
Gear-Everything
Tier Limit-Outerversal
Versions-Strongest
Location-Silver Seas
Special Conditions: None
Death of the endless isn't just a manifestation, or goddes, or the embodiment, she's death straight up. she's like the living concept of it. at minimum anyone who stand against the endless must have a high end of conceptual manipulation just like pre retcon beyonder.
The issue with Marvel cosmics is that they are the concepts they embody. They aren’t mere proxy’s or differentiate. When the cosmic embodiment of Death was erased in one universe, the concept was also erased alongside it.
I’m not sure how it works for DC, but in terms of Marvel, differentiating concepts from embodiments just does not fly unless we specifically talk about an abstract’s M-Body. And the Phoenix constantly resists and revives against that very concept of existence erasure and death.
You are talking about abstracts. Cosmics is a much broader term that encompasses many, many other beings.
Even then, Abstracts are usually described as the personification of the concept. This is not the same thing as the embodiment. If you were the concept, you wouldn't be described as the personification. That would be like me describing you as the personification of pyrofn. Doesn't make sense... you are just you.
There is also an argument that since the introduction of Life
, an abstract supposedly representing all life, said to now be Death's sister, that Marvel is retconning the old hierarchy of the abstracts. Death was previously said to be the opposite of Eternity, but its pretty clear now she is the opposite of Life, and thus, likely not on the same level as abstracts like Eternity.
OT: The Phoenix Force is a universal entity at best. There is a phoenix force in every universe in the Marvel Multiverse. Death of the Endless is just Death, for everything.... Even for Marvel as she has appeared in Marvel as well.
Phoenix is way, way, way out of its league here.
1) “Cosmics is a much broader term that encompasses many, many other beings.”
If that is the case, then it might not simply be me just misunderstanding. Or maybe I just don’t know what I’m talking about period. But justaxviel’s comment makes me think that what they mean is that Death of the Endless is very concept of Death and thus none of the Phoenix’s feats of surviving death itself are applicable because it never encountered anything like Death of the Endless, the absolute concept of Death itself.
I went by what I presumed they were classifying beings the Phoenix has faced, which would include the abstract entity Death. Their comment was very brief, so it’s entirely possible I misunderstood completely.
2) “There is also an argument that since the introduction of Life….that Marvel is retconning the old hierarchy of the abstracts. Death was previously said to be the opposite of Eternity, but its pretty clear now she is the opposite of Life, and thus, likely not on the same level as abstracts like Eternity.”
Honestly, they pretty much are. The Living Tribunal used to be the second most important entity after TOAA. Nowadays, it barely has any relevance at all since 2015’s Secret Wars.
I’d say the only one who stayed virtually the same in their heirarchy are Death and Eternity. Galactus had been cycling through different forms like no one’s business, the long dead previous multiverses have sprung up (especially the First Firmament), and Post-Retcon Beyonder is supposedly calling back to his Pre-Retcon levels without actually fully being what he used to be???? (That last one is the most confusing to me honestly)
3) “The Phoenix Force is a universal entity at best. There is a phoenix force in every universe in the Marvel Multiverse.”
Sort of right and wrong at the same time.
Recently, rudimentary Phoenix hosts have been doing things like this as of late without reaching White Phoenix of the Crown levels (all the while White Phoenix maintains being the most powerful by statements from the Phoenix itself, so that oughta be a whole world scaling issues).
For context, that is an ancient Phoenix host teaming up with a Starbrand to bring back around 615 universes wiped out.
Old Man Phoenix (Wolverine) is holding back a tidal wave of remnants of the First Firmament threatening to destroy the Marvel Omniverse.
Dark Phoenix Mystique is tossing Old Man Phoenix’s body parts across the multiverse from the White Hot Room.
While Taaia is being possessed by the Phoenix Force in the White Hot Room, the Beyonder (who is a part of the Ivory King’s race that started 2015 Secret Wars) said this about the Phoenix.
All rudimentary Phoenix Force hosts who are limited in some way doing these kinds of feats and having these kinds of statements beyond universal.
I am trying to figure out this whole cosmic thing as it is because of these new developments, where it did not used to matter as much back then. It’s a bit exhausting. Not gonna lie.
@Aristeaus:1) ……I think the logical next step for me is to ask what makes DotE more death than Marvel’s? Especially when the actual concept disappeared when Marvel’s Death was taken out. What is the standard that makes one more death than the other?
2) Well, that is comforting at least.
3) Yes, I am talking about different Phoenix hosts, but only of two universes. The 616 and the universe of Old King Thor.
None of them had any power-ups unless you are of the belief that the White Hot Room itself is a power-up, which I don’t think you are since you are saying she is universal still.
4) “White Phoenix has never done anything multiversal. Her best feats are universal, dimensional, and time line / reality manipulation... all of which would be within the bounds of a singular universe.”
I understand the prominence of feats and agree that they take supremacy in most cases.
But, there needs to be a sense of flexibility when it comes to entities like White Phoenix of the Crown.
Her situation is similar to the One Above All and Living Tribunal before he was dethroned by the Ivory King’s and First Firmament in how she is used in stories.
In which, the context of what we have seen of her puts her above every single one of those Phoenix hosts.
5) “Even then she was shown to be inferior to beings like Death in the Marvel universe.”
That is incorrect even without taking White Phoenix into account.
Blue Marvel’s second guess is correct. This is the reference to the last two scans.
6) “But again, let me point out that Death of the Endless not only exists in the Marvel universe, but retains her omniscience in said universe and likely all of her other powers. Not coincidentally, she visited Marlo, who... spoiler alert... is the current Death in Marvel. lol”
I will take your word for Death of the Endless being capable of this for the sake of argument and me learning what this entity can do.
Previously i would have said Death stomps but Phoenix Force got huge buffs out of nowhere recently, placing it well above Eternity and Beyonders so now i am not sure but leaning a bit towards "pure Phoenix Force".
I wouldn't say PF got buffs, but more so Marvel seems to be nerfing cosmics left and right.
Death of the Endless is above all of them in cosmology. Even beings like Multi-Eternity is just a multiversal being who dies every time the multiverse does. The Phoenix Force is a universal entity by definition. It has a version that exists in every universe. Though unlike cosmics, they can survive the end of the universe it seems ( Secret Wars 2 Cyclops ).
It’s more a bit of both.
The Phoenix used to be the definition of universal, but recent times have displayed that it now is an omniversal level being by way of the White Hot Room. It being above universal is a relatively new thing in the weirdest way possible, as of around the 2010’s era when a random Marvel U thing summarizing what the Phoenix Force is made this comment about it,
I’m not certain what they were doing behind the scenes in Marvel when they did this, but this got traction with fans (I’m not sure how Much influence this had on comics, but it might have had some influence by integrating it in public opinion. Who knows?), and at some point, it got to being integrated into the Handbooks,
As far as I’m the comics go, it’s been very vague-ishly teetering by way of updating how the M’Kraan Crystal works
and the White Hot Room by Chris Claremont after it was introduced in Morrison’s run. Claremont expands it in House of M when the Chaos Wave starts obliterating Otherworld, a different multiversal nexus, and all of the multiversal slowly. The White Hot Room is made clear as the Heart of the Phoenix and remained unaffected (ergo either displaying it outside of the multiverse or immune to mass reality warping on that scale).
In the same arc, Psylocke (Betsy Braddock) was seen syncing with multiple alternate reality versions of herself across the multiverse from within the confines of the White Hot Room.
That all came before the above changes to the lore of the Phoenix being the psionic nexus, but I am one to only consider something canon if there is a consistent portrayal.
So after all that, the Phoenix Force itself starts displaying multiversal scale feats that are obligatory come from Taaia (formerly from Earth-0; now residing in Earth-616), an alt version of Wolverine and Mystique (Earth-14412), and Firehair (Earth-616). They displayed the most direct multiversal-omniversal scale feats, starting in the current decade we are in.
So, I get Aristeaus’s being adamant that the Phoenix Force must be a universal force, but that just isn’t the case anymore these days.
DC abstracts as with Death of the Endless are pretty much low on feats most of the time, so it's likely that they might struggle or not really know how to deal with the Phoenix Force.
But having said that, there's a bunch of stuff in this discussion from the Marvel side that's just plain not true, in my opinion.
It's not accurate to say that Marvel Abstracts are like inseparable from the concepts they stand for. Like, we've seen Protege doing this whole copycat thing and going beyond the Marvel Abstracts, which kind of shows that these Marvel Abstracts aren't set in stone, they don't totally control the concepts they're supposed to, even including the big shot like Living Tribunal. They lack monopoly.
And then there's the Eternity Mask, which again adapted to the powers of Beyonder and even the Phoenix Force.
Marvel Abstracts being replaced does not mean they don’t embody the concepts they represent. It just means they can be replaced. You kill them, you kill the concept they represent.
A big flaw to your argument is the fact that the Ivory Kings manage to kill the multiverse by attacking the Abstracts. If they were not the embodiment of their concepts, then attacking them would not have caused the Incursions, which did end up happening.
As for the Eternity Mask, you made an incredibly superficial comparison when using both of these two as an example, considering not only was Beyonder not taking the fight seriously at all and sustained no actual permanent damage beyond a bloody nose,
But Phoenix outright won her fight.
And Death made it clear that the only reason that the Phoenix Force was even being fought on an even playing field was because it was fighting against itself in the most literal sense. There was an argument for the Defenders to continue their journey, so the Phoenix was having a back-and-forth that ended with it determining the Defenders passed the test.
Marvel Abstracts being replaced does not mean they don’t embody the concepts they represent. It just means they can be replaced. You kill them, you kill the concept they represent.
A big flaw to your argument is the fact that the Ivory Kings manage to kill the multiverse by attacking the Abstracts. If they were not the embodiment of their concepts, then attacking them would not have caused the Incursions, which did end up happening.
Well, here's the thing: Protege able to make copies of the Marvel Abstracts' powers, which pretty much shows that these powers aren't like exclusively tied to the whole idea they represent. I mean, the idea they stand for can apply to other beings even outside of the Marvel Abstracts as Protege proved. Protege didn't exactly have to snatch the power of the Marvel Abstracts to almost take over the whole Marvel scene. He just kind of whipped up these equally strong and separate duplicates. So, the notion that the Marvel Abstracts are like the absolute embodiment of their concept without any exceptions, well, that's just not entirely accurate.
As for the Eternity Mask, you made an incredibly superficial comparison when using both of these two as an example, considering not only was Beyonder not taking the fight seriously at all and sustained no actual permanent damage beyond a bloody nose,
I see what you're getting at, but your understanding of my point very far off the mark. The idea is, let's say you duplicate the power of the Beyonder or the Phoenix, what happens is that Phoenix and Beyonder wouldn't automatically have complete control over the infinite copies of their own power. If the One Above All were to make endless copies of the Beyonder and Phoenix, they would not possess absolute dominion over those duplicated versions of themselves.
And Death made it clear that the only reason that the Phoenix Force was even being fought on an even playing field was because it was fighting against itself in the most literal sense. There was an argument for the Defenders to continue their journey, so the Phoenix was having a back-and-forth that ended with it determining the Defenders passed the test.
What this really shows is that the abilities of the Phoenix Force could be turned back on itself. So, in essence, the Phoenix wouldn't have the capability to fully unleash its power against an outside foe.
1) Then by your logic, the concept would still exist even after the entities are gone, which is effectively false. But that simply just isn’t true.
Not unless there is someone to take their place. And the existence of Hela and Hades denotes that multiple entities can take the same role. At the end of the day though, the ramifications of getting rid of those entities are what dictates their effect on the concept itself. Not mere copies that can share a spot with a basically limitless concept.
2) “what happens is that Phoenix and Beyonder wouldn't automatically have complete control over the infinite copies of their own power. If the One Above All were to make endless copies of the Beyonder and Phoenix, they would not possess absolute dominion over those duplicated versions of themselves.”
That is very false, considering the Beyonder makes this claim about how his powers work,
The very existence of the Beyonder’s powers all derive from the same universe that they all embody. If another Beyonder was made, they would be connected to this dimension like the rest of them.
And it’s always been made very clear that there is nothing in existence that has existed, does exist, and will exist not touched by the Phoenix’s power. It’s its literal job to funnel life energy across all of creation, no matter what they are. The idea that the existence of a separate entity would effectively be separate is not found upon any real evidence.
3) “What this really shows is that the abilities of the Phoenix Force could be turned back on itself”
Yes, because it was already mentally divided before the fight started. I literally showed this in the scan where Death states that the Defenders are acting out a balance.
That does not signify anyone can jump in and take the Phoenixes power to use against it. Not without proper preparation or a significant connection to exploit.
4) “So, in essence, the Phoenix wouldn't have the capability to fully unleash its power against an outside foe.”
Okay, but you have not proven anyone has done this in that context to the Phoenix.
The context I brought was in respects to the Phoenix testing the Defenders. Not a real fight where the Phoenix has a clear reason to not waiver.
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