CAV: Black Widow Vs. James Bond (Frozen)-OPEN TO VOTE

@frozen: And here we have the match-up of our choosing. The movie version of Black Widow against the Daniel Craig James Bond. Feats from all of their appearances are in use of course.

Round 1: Strictly H2H

Round 2: Shoot-out

Fight takes place in the streets of Venice. Who wins?

Versus

Cool.

@wolverine08: Thank you. Still waiting for a response from the man himself.

@shroudofsorrow: Okay. Who's making the opener?

@frozen: I'd do it but I'm kind of busy right now. I'll let you make the first move.

@shroudofsorrow: Thanks.

Id put my moneh on bond... but ill let the dudes debate

Tag for votes.

Wouldn't you want to wait until the Winter Soldier comes out?

@dondave: LOL, no.

@frozen: Well we've got a few feats there based on what little has been shown:

Near the end we see her take a guy down with her "Widow's Bite" Tasers. In one of the formal trailers she also had basically a wrist-mounted grappling hook. Of course I suppose neither of those would apply since I said H2H. Any fight against the Winter Soldier where she does well should probably be PIS considering what he's demonstrated just by the trailers alone. That said we might at least see if she gets a fight against Crossbones or Batroc. That would probably bump up her H2H skill level considerably.

@frozen: how can you enter new CaV's if you don't have time to finish ours? Oh, I see, i'm the problem.

:(

@higorm: Lol no I have done two or three CaV's simultaneously before, I am actually writing my reply to your post.

@shroudofsorrow: Yeah, as you said they do not apply but are you allowed to use feats from movies that haven't come out in the CaV?

@frozen: No, no. I'm just saying depending on how Cap 2 plays out her H2H ability could be bumped up a notch or two if she fights and beats either Crossbones or Batroc. Or even just if she holds her own.

What I CAN do though is show off some of her actual feats:

And also...

And finally...

And that's about everything. She also defeated some Chiaturi during the battle of New York, but a lot of it was done with a pilfered Chiaturi staff and thus wouldn't be applicable to a fight here.

@shroudofsorrow: Doubtful she will beat either of those two.

I will get to your post tomorrow after I have replied to @higorm's.

@frozen: Fair enough. Be sure to bump this thread if it falls behind.

Ok, I forgive you :P

Interesting.

@shroudofsorrow:

Round 1

Bond is going to take the majority in H2H. He is physically stronger, faster, more durable and a more effective fighter. Widow has the agility advantage (still unsure whether she could have replicated the crane/train fights). Bond's fighting style is results based. He may not have been as fancy as Widow in H2H with her flips, but he got the job done - better yet, he was fast. Physically, he was enhanced in durability as his body recovered faster than it should have and took punishment to which he should not have taken (I only counted one purely enhanced physical feat for Widow and that was catching the moving glider). Bond's fighting style was based on Jason Bourne's as it seems, Widow had the tendency to do many unnecessary flips which simply drew the fight out. Bond was brutal and would kill in any way he could, but that does not mean he was not in bad physical shape:

He uses simple but effective wrist-locks to gain the advantage on his opponents. Not to mention the man he was fighting was armed and had the drop on Bond, the fight barely lasted a minute.

Furthermore, Bond's style adapted to nearly any terrain. He was fighting on cranes and trains and he was still fighting to a high standard. If anything, he fought faster as he had to adapt, not to mention he utilized his surroundings to his advantage (as seen in the Casino Royale crane fight). He was fighting the bomb-maker who was far more agile than Widow.

Even old Bond was able to adapt to the situation to kill Patrice (the assassin):

Bond prior to killing Patrice, had fought Patrice on a moving train (after racing across the rooftops of Istanbull on their motorcycles) and had been shot while fighting Patrice. When Moneypenny shoots him, that is the second time he is shot (as he's already bleeding from a gunshot wound), not to mention he falls a fatal fall:

Round 2

Not much I can say at this point until you provide more of an argument for her shooting abilities. Bond will take the shootout too, he showed very fast reactions while shooting (even midway Skyfall, he regained them) and had experience with firearms.

Shoots the bombmakers before they can react, and seconds later has already escaped:

With little leverage, he spins himself around to shoot and kill his attacker:

And after failing to shoot the glass off the woman's head (a shot which he faked, to convince Silva he was longer able), he swiftly kills all of Silva's men.

@frozen: Apologies for the late reply, I've been kind of busy.

The above's looking pretty good. Not to seem like I'm in denial, but this wouldn't be much of a debate if I didn't say something:

Bond's good to be sure, but Widow I think would challenge him more either way due to being much more impressive than the people Bond was used to dealing with. Of course the opposite is also true, so that negates that I guess. Still, Widow's superior agility (which you yourself conceded) might make it a little harder for Bond to land a hit. She could also try "trapping" him as her fighting style frequently involved getting her opponent into almost a scissor-like grip with her legs. If she could replicate that against Bond it might allow her to do some damage. She was pretty resourceful too given how she would sometimes make use of the environment to give herself an additional edge and also at one point showed she could kick butt even when tied to a chair. That said Bond had a similar showing of taking out some guys in an elevator while handcuffed, so I suppose that cancels that out. Both combatants definitely have a viciousness to them when it comes to it.

As to Round 2, there would be cover, making it less easy for either party to gun the other down. Widow was able to gun down Chitauri during the New York battle. The Chitauri seemed to be a bit tougher than normal humans, suggesting that Widow in turn's packing some pretty powerful firearms. Just throwing that out there.

@shroudofsorrow:

Still, Widow's superior agility (which you yourself conceded) might make it a little harder for Bond to land a hit.

Given the terrain (streets of Venice), I do not see this to be the case. She wasn't exactly dancing around Hawkeye and Bond is faster - he was a faster striker and had faster reactions. Her agility is going to be negated by his superior strength, speed, durability and effectiveness in fighting skill.

She could also try "trapping" him as her fighting style frequently involved getting her opponent into almost a scissor-like grip with her legs. If she could replicate that against Bond it might allow her to do some damage.

Doubtful. Her scissors were usually in the form of take-downs, and the only time she did use it to ''tap someone out'' was Tony's cabman and he wasn't exactly a fighter. Most of these moves just prolonged the fights in an unnecessary way; while Bond made quick work of his opponents. Also, she was practically running down a hallway when she used that move, I don't really see her replicating those movies so flawlessly in this terrain. Furthermore, Bond showed greater endurance while running, he was able to chase the bombmaker despite all the obstacles and chase the man he shot in the fourth GIF I posted before killing him.

I suppose that cancels that out

Okay, since you admitted that.

As to Round 2, there would be cover, making it less easy for either party to gun the other down. Widow was able to gun down Chitauri during the New York battle. The Chitauri seemed to be a bit tougher than normal humans, suggesting that Widow in turn's packing some pretty powerful firearms. Just throwing that out there.

She was taking out a few Chitauri, which was quite impressive but honestly her feats against those security guards were more impressive. Those Chitauri seemed to be very slow, were they any more than slaves? All of them died when the mothership was taken out. Bond showed precision and speed with his firearms, he takes out gunmen before they can even react. We already know he was durable as not only did Patrice shoot him on the train (Bond then proceeded to engage Patrice in physical combat), but Moneypenny also shot him and consequently Bond fell a fatal fall. That fall alone should have ripped open his stomach, considering that he had already taken a shot to the shoulder prior to Moneypenny shooting him, that is an impressive feat. The GIFS I posted of his shooting ability comes from each movie of the trilogy, he did retain his shooting ability throughout the films.

@shroudofsorrow: Bump.

@frozen said:

I suppose, but she was able to outrun a rampaging Hulk and use the environment both to escape him and to give herself an edge in her fight against Hawkeye. Could she maybe use the environment to give herself a similar advantage here?

I meant "trap", not "tap". As to it being used for take-downs that's true, but I was thinking that she could use it to temporarily ground him and then attack him while he was prone. Of course granted that tactic probably wouldn't work for too long.

Well in fairness the Chitauri showings were more marksmanship whereas the security guards was H2H. The only Chitauri that I remember her taking out in melee combat was done with the assistance of a pilfered Chiaturi staff.

As to the Chitauri being slaves I don't think that was quite it. They're dying when the mothership exploded would suggest they were mentally bound to it in some way, which in turn makes me wonder if they weren't at least partially artificial. But yeah, they did seem a little slow-witted. Of course I could make the same argument for the goons Bond took down. Widow did seem to shoot down some of the Chitauri before they could react, just as Bond took down his opponents before they could react.

As to his surviving the gunshot+fall, I'm tempted to write that off as PIS given how he was injured by much less then that, but for now I'll accept the validity of the showing. Looking at it yeah Widow probably wouldn't be able to kill him. She could maybe at least put him down though, and I'll accept victory by death or KO.

@shroudofsorrow:

I suppose, but she was able to outrun a rampaging Hulk and use the environment both to escape him and to give herself an edge in her fight against Hawkeye. Could she maybe use the environment to give herself a similar advantage here?

The Hulk escape was quite impressive but only to a certain extent. She barely escaped with her life and it didn't apply to an actual fight. She didn't use the environment against Hawkeye in a similar manner to this battle. She was fighting in an environment to which she could utilize that terrain. The terrain given in the OP isn't comparable, it was better suited to Bond (streets of Venice). We saw Bond chase after the bomb-maker in the crane sequence, chase after the MI6 traitor before getting leverage to shoot him, chasing after Patrice on the rooftops of Istanbull onto the train and chase Silva in the streets of London.

I meant "trap", not "tap". As to it being used for take-downs that's true, but I was thinking that she could use it to temporarily ground him and then attack him while he was prone. Of course granted that tactic probably wouldn't work for too long.

The part underlined confirms my point. Furthermore, she would not be utilizing such tactics against someone who is faster in combat and has faster reactions.

Well in fairness the Chitauri showings were more marksmanship whereas the security guards was H2H. The only Chitauri that I remember her taking out in melee combat was done with the assistance of a pilfered Chiaturi staff. Of course I could make the same argument for the goons Bond took down. Widow did seem to shoot down some of the Chitauri before they could react, just as Bond took down his opponents before they could react

I do not doubt that the Chitauri had better technology but their weapons were sluggish compared to the speed of human firearms. Their guns certainly weren't breaking the sound barrier (768MPH) whenever fired. In some of the instances, she was using the Chitauri weapons against them (not applicable here).

As to the Chitauri being slaves I don't think that was quite it. They're dying when the mothership exploded would suggest they were mentally bound to it in some way, which in turn makes me wonder if they weren't at least partially artificial.But yeah, they did seem a little slow-witted.

Mentally bound or powered by it. But okay.

As to his surviving the gunshot+fall, I'm tempted to write that off as PIS given how he was injured by much less then that, but for now I'll accept the validity of the showing.

It definitely was not PIS. That is the durability that version of Bond had; he got cut up at times but he showed incredible endurance and durability.

@frozen said:

Good points, but depending on where the fight goes Widow might be able to gain an environmental advantage.

True that, but some of them she did gun down, and again it was before they could fire off a shot with their weapons. So if Bond is faster on the draw I wouldn't say it's by TOO large a margin.

Fair enough. I'm thinking it's pretty clear who the winner is at this point.

@shroudofsorrow: Let's leave it to votes?

@frozen: Apologies I didn't respond to this sooner.

Short answer, sure, but I'd rather not take that as proof of one character beating the other. The majority's not always right after all. But yeah, let's open it up to the voters.

@shroudofsorrow: Okay. Just edit the title to say it's open for votes.

@frozen: Did it.

Bump.

@shroudofsorrow: @frozen: I think Widow should actually win since she has faced a better crop of opponents. I don't think Craig Bond has faced anyone on Hawkeye's level.

Besides the feats that involve that Black Free Runner guy, Craig Bond is beating up fodder.

I'm surprised Frozen didn't show a full clip of the Pakour Chase.

I have to vote for Shroud.

No one else wanna vote?

@lukehero: There was never the need to post that video. I described it in my posts and Shroud knew of the video as it is an integral part of the Bond trilogy, otherwise we would not have debated. It only re-enforces my argument as despite Bond being outclassed in agility, he used his surroundings to counter it. On a side note, this was a much shorter CaV than I usually have as we debated movie characters.

@wolverine08, @reaverlation, @cosmicallyaware1, @comicstooge, @lvenger, @higorm

@frozen gets my vote

@frozen:

It was better for me to select the specific instances of what is happening rather than spam videos, as I was describing the scene but I will edit it into my post if you want. The battle of New York wasn't posted either.

If you are being nitpicky then you can also mention that the battle of New York was not posted.

@frozen: That's true. It should be posted as well. @shroudofsorrow

If my vote counts I vote for Frozen, I found him to have better visual and text support for his character.

I vote for @frozen as well, he was more convincent.

great job to both, it's nice to see some new and quite unusual CaV's around here.

Yes, it does count and thank you.

@frozen definitely presented the arguments with a better structure, more convincing evidence and stronger logic to his overall arguments about Bond overpowering and outshooting Widow. My vote goes to him.

@lukehero: @jacthripper: @lvenger: @higorm: @reaverlation: Thank you for the votes thus far.

@frozen: Welcome. Tag me whenever you used under used characters.

@shroudofsorrow: @frozen: This was a short read. I think you should have waited for Winter Soldier. If this was drawn out a bit more it would have been better. I think Widow wins, but I'd have to vote for Frozen for making a better debate.

@allstarsuperman: Thanks, though WS gave Widow great gadget feats, I still think Bond wins in pure H2H.