@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: According to a later issue, Oblivion did kill Juggernaut, he just came back somehow, although I can't recall the issue. Also, there's really no indication that Oblivion was making a sincere effort to destroy him. The term used is "troublesome bacterium," not "invincible invader." Oblivion was aware of Juggernaut and wanted him out of his realm. In no way does that indicate he was actually incapable of destroying him.
Also, back then I don't think Oblivion had been fully developed into the counterpart of Infinity that he would become later on.
We are using the original cannon Steve Englehart version.
Now why would we do that when there's a more recent version of that same canon? Are we ignoring the retcon because that way Juggernaut comes off better?
@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: According to a later issue, Oblivion did kill Juggernaut, he just came back somehow, although I can't recall the issue. Also, there's really no indication that Oblivion was making a sincere effort to destroy him. The term used is "troublesome bacterium," not "invincible invader." Oblivion was aware of Juggernaut and wanted him out of his realm. In no way does that indicate he was actually incapable of destroying him.
Also, back then I don't think Oblivion had been fully developed into the counterpart of Infinity that he would become later on.
The key phrase here is, "brought back somehow"
This meant that the writer of the recent version wasn't studying or payed much attention to the original that Steve Englehart wrote and that Stan Lee managed. Also, Juggernaut was telling a story in the most recent variation which contradicts the original story which Juggernaut had later described.
Current recent version: "I spent most of my life in Oblivion and died...."
Original cannon version: "It considered me a bacterium which it wanted to be rid of me."
The original version states:
Eternity could not dispose of Juggernaut so Eternity summoned Oblivion to take the Juggernaut
Oblivion could not simply erase Juggernaut out of existence so he used another method by aging him.
Juggernaut found a cure to his aging by conjuring up hate (Cyttorak protects Juggernaut by fueling him to deage when Juggernaut hates)
Juggernaut used that hate to escape from Oblivion 3 times..... (In that same comic book)
When Beast took the helmet off of Juggernaut, Cain Marko started to fear due to his lack of mental protection
When Juggernaut began to fear, Cyttorak stop protecting him and Juggernaut started to age again
Oblivion having to deal with Juggernaut a 3rd time in his realm proposes a deal to leave Juggernaut alone in exchange for some of his knowledge of mystic spells.
That's the Steve Englehart version..... THE ORIGINAL VERSION
Juggernaut knows for a fact that he did not die in the original version. He know how he escaped 3 times in a row in that same comic. Contradicting to the point of the newer most recent re-imaged version... So will you take the word of a 40 year history of consistent writing about Juggernaut's past or an inconsistent 3 year old reimaged version of Juggernaut's reimaged past?
We are using the original cannon Steve Englehart version.
Now why would we do that when there's a more recent version of that same canon? Are we ignoring the retcon because that way Juggernaut comes off better?
Cause it's Bastro/Tron or whatever making a point about the Juggernaut?
We are using the original cannon Steve Englehart version.
Now why would we do that when there's a more recent version of that same canon? Are we ignoring the retcon because that way Juggernaut comes off better?
Cause it's Bastro/Tron or whatever making a point about the Juggernaut?
I know, I know. I've seen him complain about the same scan on other threads, which is why I posted it here.
For the same reason Oblivion got beaten by Iceman :
The writers of both these arcs were on acid and suffering from a severe case of head trauma plus heat stroke .
That's why .
Time to put some meaning behind your out of context scan.
Iceman didn't beat Oblivion. That scan is misconstrued and contrary to popular belief it's been used before. How is Iceman going to take a high-tier cosmic-level being when he's been held at gunpoint by Mystique? How can people actually believe he defeated Oblivion, a being arguably equal to Eternity and Infinity [according to Quasar which he appears in after his first appearances in Iceman's Limited Series, he was made out to be Eternity/Infinity's polar opposite to my recollection]? That's almost as heinous as Storm's argument of being able to take on The One Above All [or whoever Storm fanboys say she can take, I don't keep up with that jargon].
What REALLY happened in Iceman vs. Oblivion was Oblivion made it look like Iceman defeated him because he wanted Marge [who was his daughter Mirage] to realize her purpose and accept the fact that she was not Marge and that she was Mirage, a cosmic abstract. This much is stated on the very next page. In fact, it's debatable if that fight even happened or not, it's strongly suggested that the whole thing was an illusion throughout the last two issues especially due to the fact that after everything was said and done, Bobby woke up out of Oblivion's realm [which he notes after waking up that it exists outside of time and space].
After the posted page of Iceman supposedly fighting off Oblivion and defeating him, Oblivion explains he plotted it all and refers to it as his "dance." Promptly after Mirage accepts her role as Mirage, he seeks to consume Iceman who arguably doesn't exist anymore [due to the fact that I think it was in issue 3 that they went back in time and in a fight Bobby's dad was killed, thus stopping him from ever being born in the mainstream universe supposedly, but again, it's arguable whether that really happened or not] and does so. Iceman shows impeccable will after becoming consumed and returns over and over and gives some spiel about how he does exist [due to love, like out of some sort of bad 80's film] and how he doesn't belong to Oblivion and eventually Oblivion lets him go. Mirage asks if Iceman hurt him, to which Oblivion replies "far from it."
Iceman never posed a threat to Oblivion. In fact, their conversation in the earlier issues had him tell Bobby outright that he could blink him out of existence of he willed it. He was merely using Iceman as a pawn to get to Mirage.
In the very pages after Iceman's supposed "win" over Oblivion, Mirage explains that it was all part of "Oblivion's Dance." Then afterward, Oblivion effortlessly consumes Iceman. I'd post Iceman's whole monologue about love and the following pages but they're pretty lame, but all that happens after those pages is that Oblivion supposedly, due to Iceman's babbling while being consumed, understands love and releases Iceman and either releases him from his realm or warps reality to keep his bargain. It's pretty unclear which of the two it is.
Though, there's this, too. Oblivion telling Iceman that he only holds form after his father's death in his past due to him and his ability to take that away if he felt like it.
It's totally different than Oblivion facing Juggernaut.
Oblivion used Iceman to get Mirage to turn over and see her true self by pretending his defeat by Iceman.
Oblivion wanted to erase Juggernaut, but couldn't even when he tried.
Lastly, the writers back in the days were alot more cleaver at abstract writing. All you newer readers care about is direct physical confrontations and can barely understand metaphorical writings.
For the same reason Oblivion got beaten by Iceman :
The writers of both these arcs were on acid and suffering from a severe case of head trauma plus heat stroke .
That's why .
Time to put some meaning behind your out of context scan.
Iceman didn't beat Oblivion. That scan is misconstrued and contrary to popular belief it's been used before. How is Iceman going to take a high-tier cosmic-level being when he's been held at gunpoint by Mystique? How can people actually believe he defeated Oblivion, a being arguably equal to Eternity and Infinity [according to Quasar which he appears in after his first appearances in Iceman's Limited Series, he was made out to be Eternity/Infinity's polar opposite to my recollection]? That's almost as heinous as Storm's argument of being able to take on The One Above All [or whoever Storm fanboys say she can take, I don't keep up with that jargon].
What REALLY happened in Iceman vs. Oblivion was Oblivion made it look like Iceman defeated him because he wanted Marge [who was his daughter Mirage] to realize her purpose and accept the fact that she was not Marge and that she was Mirage, a cosmic abstract. This much is stated on the very next page. In fact, it's debatable if that fight even happened or not, it's strongly suggested that the whole thing was an illusion throughout the last two issues especially due to the fact that after everything was said and done, Bobby woke up out of Oblivion's realm [which he notes after waking up that it exists outside of time and space].
After the posted page of Iceman supposedly fighting off Oblivion and defeating him, Oblivion explains he plotted it all and refers to it as his "dance." Promptly after Mirage accepts her role as Mirage, he seeks to consume Iceman who arguably doesn't exist anymore [due to the fact that I think it was in issue 3 that they went back in time and in a fight Bobby's dad was killed, thus stopping him from ever being born in the mainstream universe supposedly, but again, it's arguable whether that really happened or not] and does so. Iceman shows impeccable will after becoming consumed and returns over and over and gives some spiel about how he does exist [due to love, like out of some sort of bad 80's film] and how he doesn't belong to Oblivion and eventually Oblivion lets him go. Mirage asks if Iceman hurt him, to which Oblivion replies "far from it."
Iceman never posed a threat to Oblivion. In fact, their conversation in the earlier issues had him tell Bobby outright that he could blink him out of existence of he willed it. He was merely using Iceman as a pawn to get to Mirage.
In the very pages after Iceman's supposed "win" over Oblivion, Mirage explains that it was all part of "Oblivion's Dance." Then afterward, Oblivion effortlessly consumes Iceman. I'd post Iceman's whole monologue about love and the following pages but they're pretty lame, but all that happens after those pages is that Oblivion supposedly, due to Iceman's babbling while being consumed, understands love and releases Iceman and either releases him from his realm or warps reality to keep his bargain. It's pretty unclear which of the two it is.
Though, there's this, too. Oblivion telling Iceman that he only holds form after his father's death in his past due to him and his ability to take that away if he felt like it.
It's totally different than Oblivion facing Juggernaut.
Oblivion used Iceman to get Mirage to turn over and see her true self by pretending his defeat by Iceman.
Oblivion wanted to erase Juggernaut, but couldn't even when he tried.
Lastly, the writers back in the days were alot more cleaver at abstract writing. All you newer readers care about is direct physical confrontations and can barely understand metaphorical writings.
You should have realized that my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously . I have all those scans available in my HD , here's the full battle :
So we should completely ignore everything that is inconvenient to your argument? Oblivion could easily destroy Juggernaut, this has always been the case, and always will be the case. A single derp story changes nothing.
So we should completely ignore everything that is inconvenient to your argument? Oblivion could easily destroy Juggernaut, this has always been the case, and always will be the case. A single derp story changes nothing.
That derp story got retconned anyways , so that point is moot .
Because one that is not part of the Crimson Cosmos can not simply delete Juggernaut out of existence. Only one can and that one is no body other than Cyttorak.
Oblivion did bore the Juggernaut into sleep. But yeah, he couldn't kill him or erase him off of the void. Oblivion even confessed that Juggernauts presence was infectious inside of his void. Meaning that Cyttorak has more influence on the effect of Juggernauts existence than Oblivion even inside within Oblivion's own realm.
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