Location: Demon World
Knowledge: No
Win By: KO
In Character: Yes
Equal Stats: No
EoS Yusuke vs EoS Naruto vs EoS Ichigo
@lordoftheninjas: @lordoftheninjas:Hell, why not. I'll post things on this one too. These are responses to others but here (things will repeat at points):
We need to get a mutual understanding of how attack potency differs from destructive capacity or this'll get pointless. Do they differ to you? You talk as if i'm "dumbing" down the moon feat but this applies to literally ALL feats, Naruto, YYH, or otherwise. The potency of "anything" is shown such that the force is "concentrated".. again.. concentrated. The more "concentrated" the force is, the more potent it is. This is literally "how" we find the potency of things. Which vial of poison is the most potent? Find the poison with the highest "concentration" to find your answer. A wildfire would destroy much more than a vase of lava but that lava's "heat" is more potent as it's a more concentrated amount of heat that the fire can't match. I'll use physical with physical and then energy with energy examples. If i'm talking about a person blowing up a mountain with the AOE of a human fist vs the same thing but with the AOE of a mountain sized fist (giant), the destructive capacity shown is the same... but the attack potency.. the concentration of that power.. THE ATTACK POTENCY is VASTLY different. Different by many, many magnitudes. I repeat, mass is a MULTIPLIER of force. How much mass of a fist would fit within the mass of a mountain? Next we'll do energy attacks, though I touched on non physical such as poison and fire already but i'll really showcase attack potency vs destructive capacity here. Take an energy attack that makes a beam in one direction with "infinite" range but anything more durable than planet level would stop it. Compare this to an energy attack such that someone throws a tiny Ki blast and kills a human sized multi-galaxy durable being of sorts or something. Which is stronger? See, that first attack... it has "Infinite" destructive capacity being able to destroy an infinite amount of planets in a straight line and anything lesser (so can potentially wipe infinite matter), has infinite joules of energy, and infinite "total" force. So you MUST think this is stronger right? Because you say, "if a fist sized tailed beast bomb busts a mountain and a mountain sized tailed beast bomb busts a mountain, both are the exact same." And in this case attack 1 can bust far more. But I KNOW you know better than that. It's not about busting power.. it's more complicated than that. It's literally why it's the first thing I bring up.. so many people treat attack potency and destructive capacity as synonyms.. but they're not. So to recap here.. when factoring in the attack potency (which is what matters and goes against durability, NOT destructive capacity) we need to look at the AOE of the attack versus the surface area of the matter destroyed, the type of matter destroyed, how it's destroyed (fragmentation, pulverization, etc.), and lastly understand mass is a MULTIPLIER of force.
As for energy and physical being different in that they need different feats/ durability to them. You're right but unless you're going to say sasuke has a sever weakness in one this doesn't mean anything to my argument as in YYH their physicals are powered by their "energy" and when it comes to purely energy attacks they actually outdo their physicals so sensui's air pressure punch is actually a very very weak showing of his "actual" full attack potency. So that said, if saying energy and physical is different is all you have on what i'm talking about (I was talking about potency all last time too), then you'll need to find something else to bring. Btw, Hiei simply flexing a portion of his aura would have more attack potency than literally all of sensui.. let alone his actual punch.. let alone his air pressure.
Alright, so the size of beheaded hill is pretty clear. I gave straight pics of it even with the parts circled (not my pics). If Kuwabara saying "mile" means they're indeed only a "mile" up then Kuwabara saying, "He can do anything" about Sensui means sensui is omnipotent or "so there's some guy who's like a million times stronger than you are now?" he must have totally meant a million times stronger huh?. Please stay away from this stuff. I gave the proof of it's size. It's literally over 200 times bigger than the plants that are much bigger than mountains. You can even scale that first pics mountain to those trees. Smh. So with that if, "But Kuwabara says Mile" is your counter I "comfortably" stick to it's much more proper size of nearing 1000 mountains. And since it "does" fall in line with that size, it definitely outdoes naruto god tier feats as this was the literal air pressure of Sensui's (the weakest S class in the whole series who'd die to EOS Hiei's literal aura) human sized punch from afar. Naruto feats definitely win in destructive capacity.. I'M LOOKING FOR ATTACK POTENCY. And yes.. it was literally his air pressure. NOTHING suggests it was some odd no named energy attack and if you search for sensui energy feat, you're not going to find anything. You'll need to look for sensui air pressure feat. He threw the punch, missed and the "air pressure" destroyed the size of 1000 mountains. If you want to say it was an energy attack.. Prove it. Basically though, show me a feat even close to the proportions of "attack potency" Sensui showed (IE. AOE of a human fist taking out .. hell, even a mountain let alone beheaded hill) and congrats, you've finally made it to the lowest trash in the series. The difference of power between a normal human and Sensui with all his power is less than the gap between sensui and upper S classes such as Yusuke and Hiei and that much more against the 3 kings. I garuntee all you have is showings of destructive capacity via AOE being around the size of destruction for feats.
Now speed.. dude.. c'mon. https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_41 Suzaku uses "real" lightning. Real.. "natural" lightning. Next: https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_151 Here (we have an ambiguous but hell, naruto fans do it so why not) it shows lightning strikes in the background behind newly transformed yusuke and as he strikes him, the lightning hasn't even left yet. Scroll back and forth from him standing there to after punching him and see how the lightning would have not had enough time to leave. Keep reading though and you come to his spirit gun clearing past the horizon almost instantaneously and THEN Yusuke proceeds to dash there also nigh instantly. Here's the cool thing about horizons though, the higher up you are, the more you can see of the horizon to those lower than you. At this point they were constantly up higher than at least a full mountain's height and still couldn't see the end.
I don't care about the unbacked statements if you don't but universal susanoo is far from enough to get there lol. But regardless, I DON'T dismiss everything as false. I simply ask for things to be backed with proof. As long as you don't use them I wont.
Alright the genjutsu. It seems like your logic on hax vs "power" of a character is weird. For you to say Danzo is more powerful than Sasuke when sasuke killed him like 7 times solo isn't right. It means you're factoring in the hax with the "total" power of a character but that's not how it's generally ever actually done. Barragon for example had rather strong hax but everyone tends to think it wouldn't work on those with more Reitsu than him (unless you think it'd overpower Aizen, EOS Ichigo, etc) and here we see it's Reitsu that is the determining factor of "power".. not hax. Take comics, we wouldn't assume it'd work on thanos either or generally anyone of higher "power". The hax is simply.. "extra". Danzo's "extra"... his hax simply allowed him to "survive" against Sasuke's superior power. With Itachi he "used" genjutsu.. that doesn't mean it was successful LOL. He saw right through it. Consider majin buu's hax of being able to turn people to candy. We saw it worked on those weaker than him.. but if we want to say it'd work on those stronger than him we'd need a feat.. which UNLIKE sasuke, he has (against vegito). I'm basically looking for a feat like that soooo.. basically he should be able to meaningfully genjutsu Momoshiki, Jigen and such. Tailed beasts are far below sasuke's power. Yawn there. And asking for his mind resistance feats would matter if I was saying Hiei would "definitely" be immune or something. Look bro, if you want to say it's "possible" he can effect Hiei then I agree. If YOU want to take the affirmative and say he'd "definitely" can effect Hiei, then "I" need that proof from "you".
Don't care about the Izanami thing as you agree on my take with how it factors here. Izanagi or Izanami being used however is NOT a garuntee. If you want to say he "should" be able to use either or he "might" be able to use them.. fine. You want to take the affirmative and say he "definitely" can? Prove it. Hiei countering Izanagi by the way.. isn't a needed thing. It's a genjutsu that doesn't interact with Hiei, it's simply a matter of Hiei just killing him again or literally obliterating his existance via dragon.
As for Sasuke being a strategy based character. He.. he uses very little strategy. That sort of thing was shown less and less as the story went on and now into adulthood he shows almost no level of it. Feel free to show me his super superior tactics as an adult.
HOLY CRAP.. you want HEAT BASED feats and not a focus on just DC. Thank you. Apply this to the first paragraphs. It's so funny you would bring up the 8 tails bathing in lava but Roshi could burn naruto in his nine-tails chakra mode and i'd actually like to see that lava he was bathing in if you don't mind. Regardless, if bathing in lava is somehow strong to you: https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_38 Byako literally fully bathes in lava.. and walks himself out of it only to be killed by Seiryuu later. Byako was D class. This was the beginning of the series mate. XD and this backs up Suzaku (a C class) having a move that normal humans would be reduced to cinders by a mere touch. Then we have Zeru a C class fire demon who'd sneeze fire hot enough to accidentally kill Byako LOL. But no wait, Hiei literally ONE SHOT him with the weakest showing of the Dragon of the darkness flame at just C class. All of that was only D class to C class shownings. The dragon then scaling alongside Hiei, obviously increases in it's potency (heat and otherwise) and goes up to upper S class level. As for Hiei's heat resistance.. he kept his arm from firing off the first use of the dragon and got to where it didn't injure him at all and in the same fight he showed he could literally absorb these flames. This again scales with him into upper S class levels of potency. This is FAR above amaterasu.
So basically and again, if you PROPERLY factor in the difference of attack potency and destructive capacity you see naruto level characters struggle to outdo Sensui (trash) level of raw attack potency (which is lower than his energy output), instead relying on high destructive capacity instead and with far lower potency in fire and electricity. Take everything honestly for both series and Hiei completely stomps Sasuke and there just isn't anything Sasuke could do but run away.
Now speed.. dude.. c'mon. https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_41 Suzaku uses "real" lightning. Real.. "natural" lightning. Next: https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_151 Here (we have an ambiguous but hell, naruto fans do it so why not) it shows lightning strikes in the background behind newly transformed yusuke and as he strikes him, the lightning hasn't even left yet. Scroll back and forth from him standing there to after punching him and see how the lightning would have not had enough time to leave. Keep reading though and you come to his spirit gun clearing past the horizon almost instantaneously and THEN Yusuke proceeds to dash there also nigh instantly. Here's the cool thing about horizons though, the higher up you are, the more you can see of the horizon to those lower than you. At this point they were constantly up higher than at least a full mountain's height and still couldn't see the end.
In terms of Hiei's first real speed feats here: https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_39https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3143326 We see he's already hypersonic at the very beginning of the series. To give you an idea, this was the very first time the whole team was together on a mission in the series. This will get into scaling but: https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_26https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_31 These chapters show that physicals are "directly" correspondent with their "energy" of which of course they can use attacks made entirely of energy. Their physicals are never their strongest attacks. In fact: https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_19 Shows that even the very first firing and weakest use of his spirit gun is twice as strong as his physical punch. This scaling of energy to physicals also translates to speed in that the higher your energy the faster you are (on a character to character basis as Hiei is prone to fast speed). In fact, it's not even a 1:1 ratio as most manga characters don't actually become 2X faster on being 2X stronger overall and yet with YYH... https://imgur.com/a/rUOt5 This hit on 80% toguro vs https://imgur.com/a/JAv4I here where 100% toguro "yells" at the spirit gun and obliterates it. But no wait.. that spirit gun he "first" fired he was "heavily" restricted. https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_105 and that second one he fired he was base full power (he fully awakens his power later) and was much stronger yet with just a simple 20% increase in power (actually less as he goes over 100% later) he can "yell" away his much stronger spirit gun. Yusuke also was fighting even with 80% toguro and then blitzed him when he released the cuffs but also with 20% increase... https://imgur.com/a/WmGjj Toguro can now block this base full power yusuke who was pummeling him with his thumb. Why am I using toguro so much? Because he literally IS physicals. That's ALL he is. All of his energy is used to fuel his physicals and he shows "exactly" how energy to phsyicals scale in the series. We know this scales because Yusuke and him "both" blitz and overpower eachother "purely" on who has more total "energy" at any given time. The same Yusuke that can blitz 80% toguro is blitzed by 100% toguro and yet.. https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_110 here we see Toguro's "actual" max strength is double his 100%. Everything he did..all his physicals scale to only half of what he can do and again.. he's nothing but phsyicals. Him blocking his full power punch with his thumb to any other series would be an obvious this guy is at least twice as strong and yet this is a 10% increase in YYH. This is the sort of scaling that happens in YYH and it's not a 1:1 ratio on power to speed.. it's a lowball.. a minimum of 1:2 ratio in that for every double in power it's a quadrupal in speed but really.. it's one hell of a lowball based on above. This applies to more than speed of course but this should start to give an idea on the scaling. Let's see how Hiei's dragon absorption goes. https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_99 Here Bui shows he had more raw power than the dragon itself and was the second strongest physically on toguro's side and yet he couldn't injure Hiei anymore and was quickly bodied (as Hiei does). He was also the second most powerful on Toguro's team. https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_147 This also shows that he can land a hit on S class sensui while at A class levels after absorbing the dragon. I understand it's a read into if he let him but at no point had he let "anyone" land "anything" on him prior and in the anime he definitely is shown to straight catch him there. This.. is RIDICUOULS levels of speed amp to overcome the energy difference of A class to S- class. Because this ended up going towards scaling in general i'd also like to bring up the fact that YYH durability is ALSO not a 1:1 ratio. https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_149 and toguro is the clearest examples but I could find plenty more but here Sensui (S- class) is talking and has shown how even with his power difference although he has no chance of losing it took a long time to beat the boss of which the boss in this case is Hiei, Kurama, Kuwabara. This is also sensui in his steel Ki form (almost strongest) and hitting them with full contact punches.. NOT air pressure. Toguro is obvious. This sort of scaling is NOT present in naruto or most series for that matter. Naruto would effortlessly one shot people so much weaker but that's not how speed and durability scale in YYH. Last proof of scaling but: https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_118 Shows that a single A class is stronger than "every" B class at once and toguro shows this himself as a B class compared to the power of every C class we've seen. C class beings simply would never hurt him and we further see this when Hiei as an A+ class rising into S class kills 500 A class demons 6 months straight and I mean all 500 at the same time.
Now, to address your take on naruto speed. First.. Speed is simply distance/ time. You want to show someone covering a larger distance in a shorter amount of time. I'll start with Toneri's feat. Naruto didn't react to anything close to light speed with the lazer. You need to understand perspective on this so look. If speed is "distance"/ time you can only use the distance/ time for the part of the beam naruto reacted to. You don't get to use the whole thing. For example, if I have a rifle with a lazer sight on it consider this: If someone is close to me I can move the gun the length of their body to get the lazer to pass by them and yet if I was to scope out a mile away and see someone i'd only need to move but an inch to cover the same amount of feet on "their" end. Hell, a mile a way and If you move it the same you did to the first time and you'll have covered FAR more space. But that mile away scenario.. Naruto didn't outrun that distance/time.. he reacted to being right in front of Toneri and simply had to overcome the speed of his arm swing.
As for your genjutsu take, I already answered that on my post to adi_frost and I don't care one way about Sasuke's ability to get out of genjutsu as nothing I care about involves Hiei mind haxing Sasuke. I also already answered Izanagi in my reply to him as well. And then with Amaterasu you'll find your heat feats posted in that reply as well.
Now onto aura. In yyh aura isn't just a show off thing to impress people. It has actual force behind it and can kill people. Toguro didn't just have aura that did nothing.. it sucked in souls from those too weak to stop it https://imgur.com/a/QEjZA + https://imgur.com/a/3dCTw . Sensui and Yusuke's auras caused giant tornados that effortlessly KILLED each and every D - A class demon that even got near it with Kurama and them not being able to even approach the aura or they'd die... all A class. http://i.imgur.com/VXTLGEd.png Even just defensively here: https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_146 we see that A class dragon of the darkness flame can't even get past base sensui's fractions of aura (was far from his full aura even in this full base form) but that's just the difference of A class to even the weakest S- class. But let's get to the high ends. https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/4/48/Barrier.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/400?cb=20161015135600 Note the size here. We have not just a mountain but all that open space. Since people like scaling to mountain destruction, how many mountains would fit within that space https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/4/47/Result.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/400?cb=20161015135718 That's the level of aura i'm talking about. We never see the tops of these energy columns and sensui? He's weaker to them than yusuke at the beginning of the show was to sensui. This aura is stronger than sensui's punch. This aura is MUCH stronger than Sensui's air pressure Beheaded hill (1000+ mountain) and it is the weakest thing they have. Each and every normal punch they do is stronger. None of what I've shown here is a special move. None of this is susanoo or special jutsu, it's not a special move or anything.. this is yyh simply flexing their aura. I feel this is good enough for now and of course I can bring up more but as long as attack potency isn't conflated with destructive capacity this "should" be good enough. However I will leave 2 last things here.
I didn't write this up but it makes sense to "me".
Momoshiki Isn't Stronger than Kaguya:
Perhaps the largest issue about this would be how many different iterations of this statement there are.
There are statements from Boruto Novel Volume 3, the Boruto anime and the main one from the Naruto Gaiden.
I'm not sure on the canon of the Boruto Novels as they aren't written by Kishimoto nor can I find out information if he helped with the writing or even considers it canon. It's dubious. Shueisha doesn't help as they aren't the creators of Naruto and they're "official timeline" of Naruto, that includes the Boruto novel, also includes non-canon material like the Boruto movie.
The Boruto anime's canon is up for debate as it's either an adaption of the manga (the manga states the anime is an adaption) or potentially secondary canon. Either way, we don't use secondary canon if it contradicts the main-canon (which it does), so I will be using the statement of "Momoshiki and Kaguya" that is directly written and drawn by Kishimoto; from the Naruto Gaiden manga.
From chapter 5 of the Naruto Gaiden, according to Sasuke, https://imgur.com/a/ge72gtK Kaguya was preparing an army of White Zetsu due to unknown reasons. Sasuke believes that Kaguya potentially feared something in the future; however, that was explicitly only conjecture.
I will now make points that disprove Momoshiki > Kaguya:
The statement doesn't even reference Momoshiki, Kinshiki nor the Otsutsuki as a whole.
This was solely conjecture by Sasuke's words, it's not even a fact that she feared something.
The statement wasn't about a singular individual, Kaguya could've been fearing the entire Otsutsuki family, not just Momoshiki and/or Kinshiki as it could've been her fearing both of them together.
The Boruto anime doesn't even reference that Momoshiki nor Kinshiki were coming after Kaguya in it's adaption of the Momoshiki arc, they literally didn't know what she was up to until very recently and they only went to the Naruto Earth as there were abnormalities detected on the planet. Momoshiki was interested if they had good Chakra only.
The Boruto anime contradicts the Gaiden manga as it says Kaguya feared a powerful foe as a fact; however, it's not made clear if it means solely Momoshiki, Kinshiki, Fusion Momoshiki or another Otsutsuki member like Urashiki who is so far an Otsutsuki unique to the Boruto anime.
Momoshiki in the Boruto manga had no interest in Kaguya, he only talks about her once when he realizes Sasuke had read her scroll on what Momoshiki's real intentions were: to take the Chakra of the Chakra Fruit. https://imgur.com/a/ZBiWVVG
It's very likely that the danger is something else still as the Boruto manga continues since a greater threat is on the horizon that is still Otsutsuki related. https://imgur.com/a/wuTtW46
None of the possible statements are about AP. They just say something Kaguya possibly fears or a more powerful foe; however, the latter can be explained because unlike Kaguya, Momoshiki and Kinshiki had Chakra Pills that massively amped their power. They were amassing such pills and stockpiling on them, making them a greater threat than Kaguya and potentially a more powerful foe if allowed to take in so many pills. Being a threat is not translatable to AP or Durability. I can be a greater threat than Conor McGregor if I knew how to make bombs, but he's stronger, faster and more durable than me. Momoshiki and Kinshiki were greater threat than Kaguya due to Chakra Pill being massive amps and things they were collecting and had stocks of.
We don't use statements if they are not consistent or are contradicted. This statement is not consistent since it was said once and never again. This statement is completely contradicted due to the overwhelming amount of Tier 7 to Tier 6 feats that Momoshiki and Kinshiki had, so another chance it wasn't about them as well.
The largest supporting reason for Momoshiki not scaling above Kaguya is literally their feats. Fusion Momoshiki was absolutely terrible in his fight against Naruto and Sasuke. Base Naruto was keeping up with Fusion Momoshiki and Six Paths Naruto was easily overpowering him.
And lastly, The mistranslation of Sensui’s statement:
人間界 = Ningenkai/Human Realm
大地 = Daichi/Land, Earth
I don’t even use/ accept sensui as a planet buster via powering up but it’s backed up way more than people realize. This is the “actual” translation and he’s at 5% of his power.. Not 1/5 .. not 50%.. 5%. Then you factor in genkai’s statement https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4437055-3150346-genkai%2Bview%2Bon%2Byusuke%2Bpower.jpg , the SDF call about an A-2 threat being country level https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_147 (understanding just how massive the difference of power between classes are) and lastly, the fact no more battles happen on earth ever again. That’s rather convincing sensui was honestly planet level just powering up. Note: The A-2 threat was called when Yusuke was resurrecting. It's obvious they were sent to close the portal but they were 100% sent to take out Yusuke even moreso than deal with the portal: https://manganelo.com/chapter/yu_yu_hakusho/chapter_148. And this would have been when he was A class as they "only" knew he had a demon gene and not in anyway how what that'd bring his power to. Only that he was A class levels of power, something the SDF had no trouble defeating. King Yama himself is higher A class and https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11117/111172491/3971228-3143727-king%2Byamma%2Brage.jpg shows some of what's he expected to be able to do.
@zaelleaz: wtf I didn’t sign up to read 3 pages lol
Naruto is LS has better dc and AOE feats and durability and I don’t have to send you a marathon of paragraphs to know this
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