While the handbook isn't wrong that Mimic copies mutants it leaves out that he can also copier Super humans in general stated in the comic & displayed on a number of occasions.
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Copies the Phoenix. It should be noted he mimic Phoenix mid combat while replacing angels wings.
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Copies Human Torch's powers.
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Also he can stack similar power sets to by pass the limitation of only getting half.
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Gang Wujin
Considering his Manhwa is relatively new very little is know about Wujin's history. Although what I can tell you is he's one of the top two Gosu in his verse. Having mastered the use of KI he can enhance his stats to superhuman levels. But moving on to more pressing matters Wujin's feats.
Note all the scans are reedited due to length.
Strength/Striking Power
Wujin strength is enough to halt a KI blast from his rival Lim Hoh-Tan.
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Punches with enough force to stop a speeding Simi-Truck flipping it leaving the a crater.
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Blitzes a Mech into the air then strikes it down cratering into the ground.
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Sends a multi ton armored robot careening through the subway tunnel.
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Speed/Perception
While Wujin is faster than sight & super sonic it doesn't mean much if we don't have any quantifiable speeds to scale from.
Wujin outpaces large armor piercing rounds while distracted. Intercepting them away from where he was originally standing, swatting them away.
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Here is where the scaling gets involved. We know that 50 cal bullets are 4,000 ft/s or mach 3.5, so Wujin would have to be moving faster than that to accomplish his feat.
Wujin & Hoh-Tan cause shockwaves while trading blows. Which means Wujin is clearly capable of fighting with that level of speed & strength to achieve such force.
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Durability
Tanks a sword slash via air pressure demonstrating his durability is superior to steel.
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A slash from these swords can cut a helicopter in half.
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Wujin using his body as a shield tanks an anti aircraft missile.
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Wujin takes a kick that sends him through several skyscrapers & a great distance away.
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Before the above pummeling even stops it's stated Wujion is weaker due to the thin density of KI in this new world. So he can't utilize his KI enhanced stats as he used to. With that he takes a punch that levels a skyscraper & stands up to continue the fight.
As you know, we have 24 hours prep. This is where I believe this duo is an expert on that
Pym being one of the most brilliant minds in MARVEL. Pym was the one that actually killed the multi-time threat of Kang
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this is key cuz Jeffries can psionically link with people so he can technomorph gadgets in almost an instance. We have 24 hours
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location is key to any battle. Pym filtering data to locate magic based Loki/Scarlet Witch and actually depower Loki
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As you know Pym is an AI/robotics genius. He is a God actually according to Ultron. And Jeffries can psionically make those robots. I know this would count as a summons but I don't know if I get three or six since Jeffries is linking with Pym though. Either way, I have 3 to 6 extra people on the field
The below are Ultron robots that took on the Avengers. Jeffires and Pym could do this.
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These aren't brainless robots either cuz Pym can copy brainwaves into tech
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I'm not done...with time being irrelevant creating tech cuz of Jeffries, remember Pym also created holograph projections that fooled Reed Richards, Reed Richards tech, and Ultron
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Now I know I have a cap limit with summons (my robots) but the rules doesn't say I cant make it look like I have more
I guess this is where I place the strength, durability, speed of Jeffries robots???
This is Jeffires (Box) reforming to the size of a TRex in the Savage Lands and takes it down as it was taking on Sasquatch...who has fought Hulk and Thing
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Box (Jeffries) taking out Orca...who is a Namor villain
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Since Jeffries can psionically make whatever he wants that is in Pym's head, I think Paym's teleportatonal doors is definitely in play
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Above was pretty much all prep. As you can see, I can do wayyyyyyy more in prep than your team
BATTLE:
If you do get past my illusions and tech, I assume you get to my characters
For those people that need to see strength, speed stats
Here is Pym taking out Absorbing Man...a known Hulk villain
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Here is Jeffries manipulating the area and taking out a Sentinel...which I expect he could do here in this city as well
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This is Jeffries ability to reform damaged/fallen gear to keep my tech coming
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Pym being able to shrink to avoid energy blasts with Pym particles - this is actually a solar flare
I'm assuming that your team doesn't make it past my prep and tech but if it does it would be interesting. At least, your guys will be fatigued.
I expect the battle to look like this though (notice that your base power set of Angel, Wolverine and Cyclops are in this alternate universe vs the Box gear)
I have to ask you a couple of questions but Ill start off with where is Gang Wujin from?
@sirfizzwhizz Ill tag SFW, due to your Mimic powerset, but I dont think that Mimic copy power set, even at half power upon mimic, is functional in prep if you said you were to mimic either Jeffries technomorphing or Pym particles? If so, the prep situation is still in my favor of application
My teams strategy is simple and straight forward considering they're physical fighter, without prep but non the less it should be just as effective.
Starting off Mimic will live up to his name mimicing the powerset of Wujin, Hank & Madison, replacing Colossus, Cyclops & Beast powerset. This will give Mimic insight of his opponents limits/weakness as he stated when facing alternate reality Deadpool. Mimic adapts power sets innately so the timing of this is inconsequential.
Now with his opponents powersets Mimic will know the best way for his team to approach this battle. Such as my team has the speed advantage. Speed is rather helpful in dealing with a numbers disadvantage. So Mimic will instruct Wujin to follow his lead and stay close as they rush in.
The first order of businesses in their attack is finding their opponents. My team has KI senses so finding people among machinery is a nonissue. So they'll blitz through the projections heading straight for Hank & Madison. Dealing with the robots will also be simple with Madison's powerset as any machinery that gets near Mimic will instantly be disassembled. Madison can reform them but with my teams speed & the constant effort it takes to reconstruct them it will be a fruitless effort.
With the war of attrition out of the way a direct assault is an option. Mimic & Wujin have the combined power to level multiple skyscrapers. Wujin alone destroyed a tunnel boring machine which caused tremors thought a city block while deep underground. (I'll reedit the scans later but right now I can link stated feat for Wujin.
I'm not sure how your team will respond to such destructive capacity but considering my team has the speed advantage they'll need durability to take a few blows. That is doubt full for Hank Pym as he doesn't have any enhanced durability without growing. I'll allow you to go into detail of your team but I wanted to not the advantages & disadvantages that will obviously be discussed.
@boschepg: Mimic copy's powers not knowledge, although he gets a full understanding of the powers he copies.
then he would understand the limits of Pym particles, and through only long exposure does the body regulate the effects? Pym created the particles with him and Scott Lang and Wasp being conformed to the use of it due to long exposure and even mass growth effected Wasp. It stresses the body out in girth, unless you are saying that your Wolverine healing factor will be countering the exposure while we fight, which Im saying is taxing your powers if not only on a limited fraction.
And also have knowledge how it is effected by sonic vibrations? What stops me from increasing Pym particles beyond your max healing factor exertion for the self imposed exertion knock out since Pym is the expert of Pym particles and Madison can create sonic blast weapons? Your mastery of it doesnt include the self regulation of it on the stress it imposes on the body???
I have alot of small comments but wanted to go slowly here.
@boschepg: This is a lot of questions & would be more suitable for a full post but since it requires I'll go ahead answer.
When Mimic copies powers he also copies the character's physical state. So copying Pym would afford Mimic all the necessities to use size manipulation an maintain it. Examples when he uses organic steel durability he also gets the strength to support his increased mass. Mimic having copied Deadpool also gets his cancer & since Deadpool's healing factor can't cure his cancer Mimic is also stuck with it.
@boschepg: This is a lot of questions & would be more suitable for a full post but since it requires I'll go ahead answer.
When Mimic copies powers he also copies the character's physical state. So copying Pym would afford Mimic all the necessities to use size manipulation an maintain it. Examples when he uses organic steel durability he also gets the strength to support his increased mass. Mimic having copied Deadpool also gets his cancer & since Deadpool's healing factor can't cure his cancer Mimic is also stuck with it.
Is it half or do you really master it? The power levels Mimic has copied has no real hazard level. The 616 Mimic died cuz he tried to copy the Hulk's power and died of gamma radiation. It doesnt sound as if can copy "all the necessities to use size manipulation and maintain it," if his power level is, In the heat of the battle, Mimic attempted to absorb the Hulk's power to help fight off the behemoth. His plan backfired as the energy from the Hulk was simply too much for Calvin to handle and he was gravely weakened and then beaten to death by the Hulk.
Im really just looking for clarity since the bio says your Earth 12 bio says half power and the 616 version died cuz he couldnt take all the gamma radiation level of the Hulk. Beast ability is agility. It doesnt hurt one self if its too much. Angel wings? No damage of too much? Cyclops optic blasts are just a portal to another dimension which is stopped by Ruby Quartz or just shutting eyes. Gamma radiation kills if you have too much. Pym particles cuz extreme internal damage if its too much. I just want clarity of why your Earth 12 bio states half level and why I should fully expect you to handle something that is definitely a hazard if its too much, when your bio states only half level?
I just wanted to clear up the obvious elephant in the room before I get to Gang Wujin and my retort. I needed more scans/statements outside of assumption
First off it's not only mutants as he's copied the phoenix force.
Is it half or do you really master it?
Handbook Entry
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"While the handbook isn't wrong that Mimic copies mutants it leaves out that he can also copier Super humans in general stated in the comic & displayed on a number of occasions."
"Also he can stack similar power sets to by pass the limitation of only getting half."
"This will give Mimic insight of his opponents limits/weakness as he stated when facing alternate reality Deadpool."
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Originally I didn't find it necessary to repost the scans sine they are readily available in my intro but here they are.
The power levels Mimic has copied has no real hazard level. The 616 Mimic died cuz he tried to copy the Hulk's power and died of gamma radiation. It doesnt sound as if can copy "all the necessities to use size manipulation and maintain it," if his power level is, In the heat of the battle, Mimic attempted to absorb the Hulk's power to help fight off the behemoth. His plan backfired as the energy from the Hulk was simply too much for Calvin to handle and he was gravely weakened and then beaten to death by the Hulk.
616 mimic is an entirely different character with different limits. So I'm not sure how this applies other than there is some limit/weakness to Exiles Mimic I'm not sharing, which isn't true just so you know.
Im really just looking for clarity since the bio says your Earth 12 bio says half power and the 616 version died cuz he couldnt take all the gamma radiation level of the Hulk. Beast ability is agility. It doesnt hurt one self if its too much. Angel wings? No damage of too much? Cyclops optic blasts are just a portal to another dimension which is stopped by Ruby Quartz or just shutting eyes. Gamma radiation kills if you have too much. Pym particles cuz extreme internal damage if its too much. I just want clarity of why your Earth 12 bio states half level and why I should fully expect you to handle something that is definitely a hazard if its too much, when your bio states only half level?
Mimic gets have the strength of the copied powerset but that no way implies he'll be at any potential risk that the characters themselves doesn't have to face. You brought up Janet "Pym created the particles with him and Scott Lang and Wasp being conformed to the use of it due to long exposure and even mass growth effected Wasp." But the real question would be is Pym venerable to this effect? If not then Mimic won't face the same risk. Even then how at risk would be, does he have to over indulge in the use of his powers. If so then Mimic with only have the strength of Pym's powerset wouldn't reach that limit.
Also just to be clear Mimic has always copied powers with the exact same level of skill to use them such as beast agility or Cyclops optic blast ricochet.
Also just to be clear Mimic has always copied powers with the exact same level of skill to use them such as beast agility or Cyclops optic blast ricochet.
That is what Im getting at. The outer limits to Pym particles is beyond the limits of the OP. Its why I didnt bring it up cuz it isnt base Pym. Your body may be able to handle the stress but you have even said in post 6:
Mimic copy's powers not knowledge, although he gets a full understanding of the powers he copies.
Its not the power of Pym particles. Pym just found it. I will admit you can shrink and grow all you want now, but as you said, it doesnt give you the knowledge.I have prepped for this moment. As shown in my perk. You say you dont have the knowledge. Jocasta and Ultron have both said that with prep Pym is a Ggod.
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Its not the power the reason I chose Pym. Its his brain. I merged that with Madison able to create psionically with Pym. As shown before, Pym depowered Loki with prep. He also found a way to defeat Chthon from working his reality warping magic by blocking host connection. He defeated Kang by isolating his temporal signature.
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Dude has defeated Reed Richards with in a space/time battle
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You want to come at one of the smartest guys in Marvel with prep with Pym particles and a guy with Ki blasts even though I have shown and proven on multiple fronts he can shut that down. Pym is the master of pym particles. you are only the student if you cant mimic his overall intellect.
you still think you can get past my wall of attrition to get to all this I have shown?
@boschepg: You've shown it what Pym has done you've have yet to put forth and argument here. The insert prep character can do such and such only works in a standard battle thread where the only user you have to convince is yourself. But in a tourney you'll have to take the initiative when debating what a character will do with prep & in battle.
you still think you can get past my wall of attrition to get to all this I have shown?
I'm not going to debate have post so I won't answer your question.
@boschepg: You've shown it what Pym has done you've have yet to put forth and argument here. The insert prep character can do such and such only works in a standard battle thread where the only user you have to convince is yourself. But in a tourney you'll have to take the initiative when debating what a character will do with prep & in battle.
you still think you can get past my wall of attrition to get to all this I have shown?
I'm not going to debate have post so I won't answer your question.
but in my prep post I did post the Loki depowerment and the robots and laid out my entire strategy with depowerment and then robot attack, and even said the time allotted would be minimal due to Madison ability to psionically link to create such thing. When we magically appear on the battlefield, I have stated my team outnumbers you. I stated due to summons I have 3 to 6 more people than you on the battlefield. You even responded that you could get past my illusion tech (which I had no issues with) which was also posted with my depowerment tech, and robots. How come you acknowledged the illusion tech but want to ignore the depowerment tech which I listed under strategy too??? I even posted in my opening strategy I would use my prep to depower you and then showed you how in prep. The initiative was already stated. It just got lost in my long prep explanation, that is why I kept the following posts shorter.
I could be wrong, but to me, its looks like you think Mimic with Pym particles and Madison's technomorph is going to nullify by listed robots or you think your Ki duo will just Ki shot my robots. Thing is as stated, I outnumber you already. Even if Mimic copies Madison's powers as you stated , Madison AoE is very isolated to one build per thought. I outnumber you. As seen in the first scan, Madison only technomorphed one Sentinel when the team was attacked by three. It takes an act of concentration for Madison to do this. If you use Ki punch you arent going to be able to use Madison techno powers cuz that would show a better use of the power than the person who has them
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Also, as stated, my depower tech was mentioned in both strategy and prep. The Chthon scan I place under the same category as the Loki depowerment and Pym analyzing energy signatures. Under OP rules, Ki, TP, Soul attacks are universal. If I mentioned and shown how it was done to depower and analyze Loki magic with data then it would apply to your Ki, or if you had reitsu, or chakra.
Im believing that your Ki is off the board. You are the one that took your best range ability, and strength off the board when you said: "Mimic will live up to his name mimicing the powerset of Wujin, Hank & Madison, replacing Colossus, Cyclops & Beast powerset"
Im saying you nullified your team cuz Im saying your Ki is blocked.
I have stated I outnumber you in both prep and strategy. I have even stated these arent fodder type robots. I have stated they think. Madison has a history of being a Senitnel builder and you want to send a one mutant and Wujin against the a probable Sentinel level robot. I even posted that Pym related tech have cloned heroes. Pym made Ultron and Jocasta. He rebuilt Vision in 5 days by hand by himself. It is assumed that Pym is a robot genius that makes self-thought robots. Wujin's Ki attacks were fine, but they were piloted like some standard Mobile Suit from Gundam? Ultron, Vision, Jocasta > military grade piloted mobile suits. I think that is a comic constant which really does not need scans
I think I can ask again now, you think you can get past my wall of attrition to get to me with a depowered Wujin and a limited Mimic?
@boschepg: I going to assume this is a complete post, considering it's in line with your position in this debate. Your post doesn't refute any of my points in my opening strategy, but reestablishes all your points reworded. Now before I get into rebuttal I want to make it clear I addressed all of your point in your strategy. However my strategy was intended to counter yours so I left a lot open to discussion. With that I allowed you first rebuttal to reestablish your point & counter mine with but it would seems this is it.
Rebuttal I
but in my prep post I did post the Loki depowerment and the robots and laid out my entire strategy with depowerment and then robot attack, and even said the time allotted would be minimal due to Madison ability to psionically link to create such thing.
I wasn't going to rebut your prep, so obliviously I'll give a general of how my team will deal with it. But now I'll get into why I don't think Pym's "depowerment machine" will work as intended.
The most glaring problem is Pym's machine which is a containment pod needs the subject in question hooked up to it. That was done by using Loki's own teleportation spell against him. Pym will have no such luck in the midst of battle. Now the counter point to this is Pym would have made the necessary modification to broadcast its effects. But that isn't how this particular machine (containment pod) works & that is only dealing with the problem after the fact to cover up simple mistakes, a copout if you will.
The next problem the containment pod presents for Pym is it's very delicate as Amadeus noted to Quicksilver. So now you have to make a concentrated effort to protect it. With my teams obvious speed advantage that isn't possible with the numbers your team is limited to.
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When we magically appear on the battlefield, I have stated my team outnumbers you. I stated due to summons I have 3 to 6 more people than you on the battlefield. You even responded that you could get past my illusion tech (which I had no issues with) which was also posted with my depowerment tech, and robots. How come you acknowledged the illusion tech but want to ignore the depowerment tech which I listed under strategy too???
I've addressed this but I would like to point out that your supposed strategy is actually your prep. I don't know how common refuting prep is but I haven't done it. Your actual strategy is the battle section of your post, that only follows up with the Robots stats & Pyms evasion shrinking.
You also have statements about my team being fatigued battling with the Robots but due to my strategy that is a non issue.
I even posted in my opening strategy I would use my prep to depower you and then showed you how in prep. The initiative was already stated. It just got lost in my long prep explanation, that is why I kept the following posts shorter.
It's understandable you would want to keep your post short but detail your team's perspective of events should be a priority.
I could be wrong, but to me, its looks like you think Mimic with Pym particles and Madison's technomorph is going to nullify by listed robots or you think your Ki duo will just Ki shot my robots. Thing is as stated, I outnumber you already. Even if Mimic copies Madison's powers as you stated , Madison AoE is very isolated to one build per thought. I outnumber you.
All of this was taken into consideration when my team decided to go on the offensive.
"The first order of businesses in their attack is finding their opponents. My team has KI senses so finding people among machinery is a nonissue. So they'll blitz through the projections heading straight for Hank & Madison. Dealing with the robots will also be simple with Madison's powerset as any machinery that gets near Mimic will instantly be disassembled. Madison can reform them but with my teams speed & the constant effort it takes to reconstruct them it will be a fruitless effort."
I'm not making Madison's powers out to disassemble a city just any machinery that is an obstruction. Your team has three Robots within a 50 ft distance of mine, if they are going to be your team's offensive line then coming into contact with my team is inevitable. Considering the speed advantage of my team, Mimic's mind works faster than Madison's meaning all of your teams machinery can taken care of within fractions of a second. That includes the containment pod, which you will likely assert is still viable.
As seen in the first scan, Madison only technomorphed one Sentinel when the team was attacked by three. It takes an act of concentration for Madison to do this. If you use Ki punch you arent going to be able to use Madison techno powers cuz that would show a better use of the power than the person who has them
This is an odd assertion considering Mimic whole schtick is being a one man army capable of using everything at his disposal at once. I've shown scans to corroborate this claim in my intro. One thing you failed to mention is even if Mimic needs to change powerset he is still faster than your team. So even that claim is a non issue.
Also, as stated, my depower tech was mentioned in both strategy and prep. The Chthon scan I place under the same category as the Loki depowerment and Pym analyzing energy signatures. Under OP rules, Ki, TP, Soul attacks are universal. If I mentioned and shown how it was done to depower and analyze Loki magic with data then it would apply to your Ki, or if you had reitsu, or chakra.
Im believing that your Ki is off the board. You are the one that took your best range ability, and strength off the board when you said: "Mimic will live up to his name mimicing the powerset of Wujin, Hank & Madison, replacing Colossus, Cyclops & Beast powerset"
Im saying you nullified your team cuz Im saying your Ki is blocked.
The equivalence of energy isn't the problem it's the execution where your team fails. I've already noted those flaws so I'll entertain the notion that KI isn't available for the time being. Even without KI Mimic is faster than your team with the power to disassemble machinery with a thought. So how long is KI nullified 1 secs, 3 secs, or 5 secs. See where I'm going with this what ever you assert with KI nullification it will be an inconsequential amount of time before it's dealt with. Five seconds isn't enough time for your team to act unless they have superspeed rivaling Mimic.
I have stated I outnumber you in both prep and strategy. I have even stated these arent fodder type robots. I have stated they think. Madison has a history of being a Senitnel builder and you want to send a one mutant and Wujin against the a probable Sentinel level robot. I even posted that Pym related tech have cloned heroes. Pym made Ultron and Jocasta. He rebuilt Vision in 5 days by hand by himself. It is assumed that Pym is a robot genius that makes self-thought robots. Wujin's Ki attacks were fine, but they were piloted like some standard Mobile Suit from Gundam? Ultron, Vision, Jocasta > military grade piloted mobile suits. I think that is a comic constant which really does not need scans
There are erroneous claims here I'll address. Pym has admitted to Reed he only made the first iteration of Ultron & Ultron created what he evolved into. So that Pym related teach that copied the powerset of heroes is all Ultron's doing. The story itself is called Rage of Ultron. Jocasta & Vision where also made by Ultron with Vision being a special set of circumstances. So being smart enough to reverse engineer tech is in Pym's wheelhouse. What I'm getting at is your not going to be able to claim any version of Ultron or Vision as Pym lacks the capacity to build them without the programming (inset Ultron number here) & materials (adamantium & synthezoid body).
Your teams robots are made of the materials around them with nothing durable enough to withstand building busting at the least. This only applies when I entertain the notion Mimic can't disassemble the machinery. Which would mean I would have to lowball my on character and argument.
I haven't yet got in the mood to reedit these scans to post here so I ask you do me a favor & brows the chapter. link It should be linked in all pages mode but if not click enable it.
I think I can ask again now, you think you can get past my wall of attrition to get to me with a depowered Wujin and a limited Mimic?
You also have statements about my team being fatigued battling with the Robots but due to my strategy that is a non issue.
"The first order of businesses in their attack is finding their opponents. My team has KI senses so finding people among machinery is a nonissue. So they'll blitz through the projections heading straight for Hank & Madison. Dealing with the robots will also be simple with Madison's powerset as any machinery that gets near Mimic will instantly be disassembled. Madison can reform them but with my teams speed & the constant effort it takes to reconstruct them it will be a fruitless effort."
I'm not making Madison's powers out to disassemble a city just any machinery that is an obstruction. Your team has three Robots within a 50 ft distance of mine, if they are going to be your team's offensive line then coming into contact with my team is inevitable. Considering the speed advantage of my team, Mimic's mind works faster than Madison's meaning all of your teams machinery can taken care of within fractions of a second. That includes the containment pod, which you will likely assert is still viable.
And as I said, you are showing greater mastery of Madison techno powers than even Madison has. That is not Mimic's base power. He isnt Synch.
You keep on bringing up Mimic's speed. You have Angel's flying speed. Madison has created tech that has taken out the entire Alpha Flight team. And that had Aurora who flies at Northstar speed. Angel's wings are not as fast as either Northstar or Aurora.
Are you forgetting that Madison was the sole reason the Director was able to set up mutant detainee camps?
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Box tech without adamantium is able to go toe to toe with the Hulk and Sasquatch. Able to take on Tundra, who is above Sasquatch level.
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Jocasta & Vision where also made by Ultron with Vision being a special set of circumstances. So being smart enough to reverse engineer tech is in Pym's wheelhouse. What I'm getting at is your not going to be able to claim any version of Ultron or Vision as Pym lacks the capacity to build them without the programming (inset Ultron number here) & materials (adamantium & synthezoid body).
Im not trying to claim Ultron. Im was just saying the upper limits of his creation
Jocasta was originally built by Ultron yes (with Pyms brainwaves) but Pym himself made 10 billion Jocasta units.
As for Vision, he rebuilt the Vision in three days to still phase. He didnt need Ultron
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As for the adamantium as stated above, Madison does not need adamantium for his robots. He never has
And as I said, you are showing greater mastery of Madison techno powers than even Madison has. That is not Mimic's base power. He isnt Synch.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, your scan shows Madison can disassemble a Sentinel I'm merely adopting that aspect of his powerset into my strategy. How is the most simplest of applications with a powerset assumed to be better master? Is it because I'm claiming Mimic can do it with superspeed. if that's the case then you're claiming Mimic can't use his powerset to its fullest.
You keep on bringing up Mimic's speed. You have Angel's flying speed. Madison has created tech that has taken out the entire Alpha Flight team. And that had Aurora who flies at Northstar speed. Angel's wings are not as fast as either Northstar or Aurora.
You're a tab bit confused I've never in this debate claimed Mimic has Angel's wings. My intro states Mimic starts off with Colossus, Cyclops, North Star, Wolverine, & Beast powerset.
Are you forgetting that Madison was the sole reason the Director was able to set up mutant detainee camps?
How does this help? None of this is mentioned in your prep, so it's irrelevant in your strategy. Also it's a prison not something Madison would have time to build mid combat. With that your team doesn't know that the containment pod won't work. So at what point will Madison start working on counters for Ki & mutant DNA?
Now I'm a tab bit confused.
Box tech without adamantium is able to go toe to toe with the Hulk and Sasquatch. Able to take on Tundra, who is above Sasquatch level.
Every mid tier has survived an encounter with Hulk I'm not seeing how that is impressive. Unless Madison is on par with Thing (Ben Grim) then it obviously should be ignored. As for Sasquatch he is bellow Thing by his own admission so I'm unsure where he fits into all this. Any decent striking feats outside of simple scaling?
Lastly Tundra I know the instance your scans show & for Madison to reach that level he needed massive amounts of materials. That would be understandable in during prep but not in combat where he's at a disadvantage in speed.
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Im not trying to claim Ultron. Im was just saying the upper limits of his creation
I'm not sure what Robots Pym has built that wasn't reversed engineered. Every example you have is another character's creation.
Jocasta was originally built by Ultron yes (with Pyms brainwaves) but Pym himself made 10 billion Jocasta units.
This scan doesn't help your case because the robots in question are fodder. Yes I understand you have Madison but that only means Box armor level robots. Anyway discussing Robots seem inconsequential when Mimic has turned technomorphing into a weapon against your team.
As for Vision, he rebuilt the Vision in three days to still phase. He didnt need Ultron
Once again reversed engineered this isn't something Pym has created from memory.
That isn't the same as a containment pod countering magic. That is a neural inhibitor which doesn't take prep for Pym. With that it's only aimed at Robots & won't work against my perk.
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You are not the fastest or strongest in this battle. You never have been.
The only thing I've claimed is speed which my team has the advantage in. I wouldn't claim strength because there is no need for a contest of strength. I hope I've cleared up any confusion.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, your scan shows Madison can disassemble a Sentinel I'm merely adopting that aspect of his powerset into my strategy. How is the most simplest of applications with a powerset assumed to be better master? Is it because I'm claiming Mimic can do it with superspeed. if that's the case then you're claiming Mimic can't use his powerset to its fullest.
What I said was that Madison has never transmorphed multiple objects at the same time on the scale you I think you are inferring. He can transmorph a field of machine into one machine, but he doesnt transmorph multiple ones at the same time - as he didnt do against the Sentinel. There was three Sentinels and he only deconstructed one. When Canada got invaded, in only deconstructed on spaceship at a time. He focuses on one object at a time unless you can prove me wrong. Im a HUGE Alpha Flight fan. I could be missing something. But there is more evidence that he focuses on one deconstruction of tech like you are facing one at a time. Im saying Mimic isnt going to technomorph all my robots at one time.
You're a tab bit confused I've never in this debate claimed Mimic has Angel's wings. My intro states Mimic starts off with Colossus, Cyclops, North Star, Wolverine, & Beast powerset.
my bad, I was confused. Im always used to him with wings (616) But it still stands, Box can contain Aurora. You did drop Colossus, Cyclops, and Beast though according to your powerset
How does this help? None of this is mentioned in your prep, so it's irrelevant in your strategy. Also it's a prison not something Madison would have time to build mid combat. With that your team doesn't know that the containment pod won't work. So at what point will Madison start working on counters for Ki & mutant DNA?
Now I'm a tab bit confused.
Im not saying that Box is going to put you into camps. Im stating that the Box armor itself, helped keep the mutants in the camps. The Box armor captured Alpha Flight. Has fought the Hulk. All this with out adamantium
Lastly Tundra I know the instance your scans show & for Madison to reach that level he needed massive amounts of materials. That would be understandable in during prep but not in combat where he's at a disadvantage in speed.
I dont think Im that far off in speed as I said my Box robots has taken out Aurora...Northstar's speedster sister. Ille ven admit Northstar is faster, but not that much. (Ill give you a freebie on that)
The only thing I've claimed is speed which my team has the advantage in. I wouldn't claim strength because there is no need for a context of strength. I hope I've cleared up any confusion.
My strategy is straightforward being that my team is physical fighters without the means to prep. Which is continually blast and bludgeon the opposition until victory is achieved. However my team is quite versatile when it comes to that particular strategy.
As for the debate itself I've put forth the necessary counters to obvious inconsistencies . And through the course of the debate discovered limits to characters powerset. But to be more specific Pym's "depowerment machine" will be ineffective due to it's original design. While Madison powerset has the limits of focus & range. Meaning it takes time to construct machines, which isn't conducive to battle. With the limit to range he'll be limited in resources even within a city.
Mimic on the other hand forgoes these limits by use of speed. Having faster though processing speed Mimic will gain focus quicker, while only needing fractions of a second to produce thoughts deconstructing machines. Range was a non issue for Mimic to begin with as teams start 50 ft apart so closing that distance using supersonic speed takes less than a second.
Now speed has been brought up many times by me due to the fact I want to stress the weakness in my opponents strategy it presents, so allow me to reiterate. Besides the in ability to see my team the opponent's team will be too slow to respond to their crippled offenses (loss of robots). That presents another problem their defense will be chipped away at a rate rebuilding will be a useless effort. But rebuilding is only valid once they realize what has been lost which takes perception speed they lack.
Besides speed durability is another issue which I don't think has properly been addressed. Pym lacks any relevant durability feats without growing (becoming a bigger target). While Madison durability is mostly scaling from opponents he has fought. But even then he has been shown to be destroyed only to reassemble some time after. Which goes back to the above points focus & speed.
All in all I don't think any points discussed are in my opponents favor not even numbers.
Preparation playing a big influence in this battle complicates this battle.
Hmm...Mr. Pym's intelligence seems impressive, but even though the question of how long it takes him to build tech is out of way with Madison, there is still that question of how long it took for him to think of those things in the scans?
Couldn't the preparation team have Adamantium robots or something due to the preparation or is it breaking the limits of the tournament?
Anyway, the user did not seem to emphasize how long it took him to think of these things. I mean even the smartest people need time to think right?
Yet again I admittedly do not think I understood most of what is claimed, so apologies to that. The preparation team started nice, but the opposing team.
I thought it was somewhat close with what I understand, but I will give my vote to @mr_ingenuity as his or her character's powers and plan were easier to understand for me, which helped.
He or she did some convincing countering and his or her seeming prior knowledge of Pym (as evidence by how he or she brought up a new scan related to Pym in Post #14) seemingly took the opposing team out a little in my point of view.
I think @boschepg would have benefited if he or she did not spend countering most of the time and instead tried bringing up something else or taught of another plan in advance before the battle.
Preparation playing a big influence in this battle complicates this battle.
Hmm...Mr. Pym's intelligence seems impressive, but even though the question of how long it takes him to build tech is out of way with Madison, there is still that question of how long it took for him to think of those things in the scans?
Couldn't the preparation team have Adamantium robots or something due to the preparation or is it breaking the limits of the tournament?
Anyway, the user did not seem to emphasize how long it took him to think of these things. I mean even the smartest people need time to think right?
Yet again I admittedly do not think I understood most of what is claimed, so apologies to that. The preparation team started nice, but the opposing team.
I thought it was somewhat close with what I understand, but I will give my vote to @mr_ingenuity as his or her character's powers and plan were easier to understand for me, which helped.
He or she did some convincing countering and his or her seeming prior knowledge of Pym (as evidence by how he or she brought up a new scan related to Pym in Post #14) seemingly took the opposing team out a little in my point of view.
I think @boschepg would have benefited if he or she did not spend countering most of the time and instead tried bringing up something else or taught of another plan in advance before the battle.
Preparation playing a big influence in this battle complicates this battle.
Hmm...Mr. Pym's intelligence seems impressive, but even though the question of how long it takes him to build tech is out of way with Madison, there is still that question of how long it took for him to think of those things in the scans?
Couldn't the preparation team have Adamantium robots or something due to the preparation or is it breaking the limits of the tournament?
Anyway, the user did not seem to emphasize how long it took him to think of these things. I mean even the smartest people need time to think right?
Yet again I admittedly do not think I understood most of what is claimed, so apologies to that. The preparation team started nice, but the opposing team.
I thought it was somewhat close with what I understand, but I will give my vote to @mr_ingenuity as his or her character's powers and plan were easier to understand for me, which helped.
He or she did some convincing countering and his or her seeming prior knowledge of Pym (as evidence by how he or she brought up a new scan related to Pym in Post #14) seemingly took the opposing team out a little in my point of view.
I think @boschepg would have benefited if he or she did not spend countering most of the time and instead tried bringing up something else or taught of another plan in advance before the battle.
@mr_ingenuity: Well...I can never really tell for sure behind the internet what everyone's gender or sex really is. If it bugs you, just tell me what you want me to prefer you as.
Well based on prior posts, you want to be referred to as an attack helicopter?
@ultimate_knight: My username is an obvious give away, mister=male=he. Also attack helicopter is a copy pasta.
"I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I’m fucking retarded but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Apache” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding."
@mr_ingenuity: Well I am more likely to call you "he" than "attack helicopter" or "apache." Maybe occasionally I will call you "attack helicopter" or "apache."
This debate was pure awesome and I really enjoyed reading through it. Now both sides brought a level of amazing focus and understanding in regards to their respective characters, also both strategies were in-depth. While this match-up was super close as I see it as being a tie I`m going to have to give the edge to @mr_ingenuity. His debating style won me over as well as his strategy, his team has the more stronger argument when in relation to countering @boschepg`s strategy which was an awesome strategy and Hank Pym`s preparation was a factor but I believe mr_ingenuity`s team is a good counter for that strategy and their versatility matters more in the long run.
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