Hawkeye: Compact Bow, Arrows, and Trick Arrows.
Black Widow: Dual Pistols, AR, Explosive Mines, and Toxins.
Vs
Daken: M-Claws
- Death or KO
- They Start 40 feet from eachother
- Battle in Warehouse
CaV Daken (Esquire) vs Ult. Hawkeye / Black Widow (CadenceV2)
Bamsky!
Ill start this shin dig.
Alright, PPheromones Alot of people think they are a instant win. There not. They affect people for sure but it takes more than a few seconds. Daken in character also likes to play with his opponents when using them.
Hawkeye and BW are Shields 2 best operatives before Captain America was found. They fought many Meta Humans before the Ultimates were formed. Both in character believe going for the Kill shot and never mess around.
This is my biggest Advantage.
Black Widow is also Super Human in Reflexes and Speed.
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As seen here She can hold a casual Conversation while expertly killing Aliens.
She is also no Stranger to combat against Superior Foes.
As for Hawkeye he keeps it range. This could help as Pheromones work in a proximity like any other Pheromone. Hawkeye should keep distance like he does In character and pop shot Daken full of Arrows in seconds.
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As he does here.
And Here.
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Hawkeye as seen here is also no stranger in harming Healing Factor Super Humans. Like Venom and Sabertooth.
So far I belive I have the Accuracy, mass shots, and Skill to put a hurtin on Daken before he closes in on BW or Hawkeye who will be seperate from eachother and cover the other. Pheramones should only factor for 1 of my guys for a time. Also BW being the Superhuman with her enhancements would likely be the one to close in on Daken allowing his Pheramones to make her want him.
@CadenceV2: Pheromones certainly don't grant an instant win here, but they'll help Daken swing things in his favor. Daken's biggest advantages here are his healing factor and his stealth abilities. Although both of your team members are experts in covert ops, Daken's enhanced senses will allow him to locate them no matter where they are on the map, and neither of your characters can do the same to Daken. Although Hawkeye has enhanced vision, it won't help him much against a stealth character of Daken's caliber. Daken is able to sneak up on Wolverine despite his enhanced senses, sneak up on Spider-Man, sneak out of an elevator even though Frankencastle is standing outside the only door, and perhaps most impressively, sneak through the Baxter Building to within a few feet of the FF without Reed Richards' security systems detecting him.
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Daken will disappear as soon as the match starts, and you won't be able to track him down. Your strategy is to have Black Widow and Hawkeye split up in order to cover each other. This only plays into Daken's hands. He'll sneak around your characters, keeping just out of sight with his disappearing trick, and use his pheromones to confuse your team, throwing them off their game.
He'll mess with their emotions, driving them crazy, filling them with anger and frustration to take the edge off of their skills. Then, when one is isolated, he'll strike. Neither Hawkeye nor Black Widow have superhuman durability, so one shot will be enough to take them down. Then he'll disappear again before popping out behind your last survivor, killing them, too.
@Esquire:
I don’t believe his Stealth will work as well as you may think. Black Widow and Hawkeye are known for their exceptional stealth. They killed many Super Powered foes on it.
Here BW drops on the Vanisher with ease.
Again pretty much single handily killing Aliens with her Stealth and skill.
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Also HE has Super Vision. It’s his power. He knows Coordinates in his head of what’s around him like 24/7, He even Spies Fury thru the 1 Way Glass that he shatters with a Pen.
2 Sets of eyes on him like theirs will be hard to avoid.
This helps me as I stated before. Black Widow is all into seducing as well and will love to kiss Daken. Touch his face.
This could work for her as Daken has no defense or knowledge of her Neural Toxins! He might as well belive she is just falling for him!
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Or she could plant Mines on him like she did on a Jet flying toward her!
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Meanwhile Hawkeye is away from the Pheromones taking shots. Accurate Shots! Like his Fingernail Feat or RPG on Ghost Rider!
Also I have 3 ways of Taking Daken Down via Hawkeye.
1) Bolas around Dakens arms!
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2) Taser Arrow! This Arrow took out with constant volts to Superhuman Kraven and Rogue with Toads Powers.
3) Nuke Arrow! Nuff said.
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4) From a Helicopter HE KOs a 200 MPH Hulk with his Ejection Arrow. Good dose of night night should work on Daken as well.
Sum it all up. I have many ways of KOing Daken here between the two Agents. Pheramones work less with distance. Daken Skills of Stealth be harder to pull off against these Black Op Mission Experts. One is a Spy/Assassin for the world!
@CadenceV2 said:
I don’t believe his Stealth will work as well as you may think. Black Widow and Hawkeye are known for their exceptional stealth. They killed many Super Powered foes on it. Here BW drops on the Vanisher with ease. Again pretty much single handily killing Aliens with her Stealth and skill.
Neither of your characters will be able to sneak up on Daken because of his enhanced senses. He has greatly enhanced smell and hearing, and is able to locate his opponents with them, even if he can't see them. The following scan is X-23 using her senses to pinpoint invisible targets, but Daken has the same sort of senses as she does. So no matter how sneaky Black Widow is, Daken will have her pinpointed at all times.
Also HE has Super Vision. It’s his power. He knows Coordinates in his head of what’s around him like 24/7, He even Spies Fury thru the 1 Way Glass that he shatters with a Pen. 2 Sets of eyes on him like theirs will be hard to avoid. This helps me as I stated before.
Enhanced vision is all well and good, but Daken has been able to sneak up on characters with enhanced senses before. Once Daken gets close, his pheromones will distort Hawkeye's depth perception and visual acuity anyway, like they did to Spider-Man. And added to that the nature of his disappearing trick makes vision a particularly unreliable sense against him.
Black Widow is all into seducing as well and will love to kiss Daken. Touch his face. This could work for her as Daken has no defense or knowledge of her Neural Toxins! He might as well belive she is just falling for him!
This is a battle, not a date. Daken will be stalking her, but not in a romantic sense. He's not going to approach her and start flirting, he's going to slit her throat. And if Daken has no knowledge of her toxins, she has no knowledge of his pheromones. Even better for me!
Or she could plant Mines on him like she did on a Jet flying toward her!
Again, she would have to see him and tag him to be able to do this. With his stealth skills, disappearing trick, and pheromones altering her perception, she simply can't get mines onto him.
Meanwhile Hawkeye is away from the Pheromones taking shots. Accurate Shots! Like his Fingernail Feat or RPG on Ghost Rider! Also I have 3 ways of Taking Daken Down via Hawkeye. 1) Bolas around Dakens arms! 2) Taser Arrow! This Arrow took out with constant volts to Superhuman Kraven and Rogue with Toads Powers. 3) Nuke Arrow! Nuff said. 4) From a Helicopter HE KOs a 200 MPH Hulk with his Ejection Arrow. Good dose of night night should work on Daken as well.
Hawkeye has no way of detecting Daken, since Daken has shown stealth easily good enough to hide from visual detection. While the fingernail and RPG feats are impressive displays, they're both in situations totally irrelevant to this one. Daken's healing factor can easily deal with any bladed weapons HE might try to throw, and he'll hardly be moving in a straight, predictable course on the off-chance the Clint does detect him. Even if Hawkeye did manage to draw a bead, he's only as effective as his weapons allow him to be. Daken is just too quick to be tagged by the arrows. Even though Barton tagged Toad, who has some degree of enhanced agility, he did it while Toad was running away and wasn't even watching for a projectile. Daken will know where Hawkeye is at all times thanks to his senses, and he's easily fast enough to dodge the arrows.
Sum it all up. I have many ways of KOing Daken here between the two Agents. Pheramones work less with distance. Daken Skills of Stealth be harder to pull off against these Black Op Mission Experts. One is a Spy/Assassin for the world!
Daken has impressive durability and could tank many of your attacks, but he won't need to. With his stealth and disappearing trick, he won't be tagged in the first place. Even without pheromones he's skilled enough to take out both of your team in h2h, and stealthy enough to get the upper hand with an ambush. Black Ops experts they may be, but both of them together don't have the stealth skill and black ops experience of Wolverine, and Daken has had zero trouble sneaking up on Logan over the years.
Daken simply is too good at what he does. He can stay undetected for as long as he wants, and eventually his pheromones will cloud Hawkeye's perceptions and emotions enough for him to strike. With Clint down, he can either stealth kill Black Widow or engage her in h2h without needing to worry about Hawkeye, and he's shown more than sufficient skill to defeat her.
@Esquire:
Neither of your characters will be able to sneak up on Daken because of his enhanced senses. He has greatly enhanced smell and hearing, and is able to locate his opponents with them, even if he can't see them. The following scan is X-23 using her senses to pinpoint invisible targets, but Daken has the same sort of senses as she does. So no matter how sneaky Black Widow is, Daken will have her pinpointed at all times.
Oh make no mistake this isnt a battle of my guys stealthing yours. There is no need. Both HE and BW have so much working experiance and fought so many Super Power baddies they will know to simply have BW who is better at speed and reflexes due to her Enhancements chase him down. Hawkeye is staying off a bit to track both of them. Its harder to stealth 2 people with enhance super vision and tracking skills than one.
Super Sight is pretty good.
Enhanced vision is all well and good, but Daken has been able to sneak up on characters with enhanced senses before. Once Daken gets close, his pheromones will distort Hawkeye's depth perception and visual acuity anyway, like they did to Spider-Man. And added to that the nature of his disappearing trick makes vision a particularly unreliable sense against him.
He sneak up on 1 character at a time. He sneak past none Stealth types as well. I have 2 of Shields best Black Ops with Enhance Senses and Visions. I have a Archer who rarely misses with any weapon and top Spy Assassin in the world.
This is a battle, not a date. Daken will be stalking her, but not in a romantic sense. He's not going to approach her and start flirting, he's going to slit her throat. And if Daken has no knowledge of her toxins, she has no knowledge of his pheromones. Even better for me!
Daken in every battle and scan taunts and gets close to his targets. Its in character for him too when his Pheramones are at play. He did it to Spidey, Skaar, Wolverine, Deadpool, Punisher, ect ect. Its in character. He simply does this everytime. If BW can touch him or he physicly touches her (blades with blood on them is very physical contact) her Nerual Toxins are at play. KO him in seconds like Spiderman. Or at the least slow him down for Hawkeye to Taser Arrow him and Nuke Arrow him.
Again, she would have to see him and tag him to be able to do this. With his stealth skills, disappearing trick, and pheromones altering her perception, she simply can't get mines onto him.
I think she is capable of setting up mines all over the place before the Pheramones kicking in. Maybe while she is tracking him. Hawkeye could hit those mines as well with increadible ease for distractions after the fact as well.
Hawkeye has no way of detecting Daken, since Daken has shown stealth easily good enough to hide from visual detection. While the fingernail and RPG feats are impressive displays, they're both in situations totally irrelevant to this one. Daken's healing factor can easily deal with any bladed weapons HE might try to throw, and he'll hardly be moving in a straight, predictable course on the off-chance the Clint does detect him. Even if Hawkeye did manage to draw a bead, he's only as effective as his weapons allow him to be. Daken is just too quick to be tagged by the arrows. Even though Barton tagged Toad, who has some degree of enhanced agility, he did it while Toad was running away and wasn't even watching for a projectile. Daken will know where Hawkeye is at all times thanks to his senses, and he's easily fast enough to dodge the arrows.
Stealth is good to sneak up on somebody. In battle its near useless. Either HE or BW will find him or when he engages one of my guys the other will be on him in a flash. The numbers help me alot here. As fore Doging its hard to say Toad Agility and Speed is a easy target.
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He tagged Toad and Rogue (with Toads powers) both at the same time.
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Heck Hawkeye took out 3 Super Powered threats with Head Shots all around in a chaotic warzone. Even a normal 3 arrows to the skull of Daken will slow him down.
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How about HEs accuracy with a unaccurate RPG on Ghost Rider?
Daken is no way dodging all the Taser Arrows or shots from Hawkeye. Again one solid Nuke Arrow in a 15 meter radius and its finish.
Daken has impressive durability and could tank many of your attacks, but he won't need to. With his stealth and disappearing trick, he won't be tagged in the first place. Even without pheromones he's skilled enough to take out both of your team in h2h, and stealthy enough to get the upper hand with an ambush. Black Ops experts they may be, but both of them together don't have the stealth skill and black ops experience of Wolverine, and Daken has had zero trouble sneaking up on Logan over the years.
Daken simply is too good at what he does. He can stay undetected for as long as he wants, and eventually his pheromones will cloud Hawkeye's perceptions and emotions enough for him to strike. With Clint down, he can either stealth kill Black Widow or engage her in h2h without needing to worry about Hawkeye, and he's shown more than sufficient skill to defeat her.
Again Considering how good the senses and reflex of my guys are as well the fact there is 2 sets of eyes I dont see Stealth being a major player.
Also Guns and normal Arrows will at best help slow down Daken. They do for Wolverine so dont see why not Daken. Also to put Daken Down I have Tranq Arrows that KO Hulk, Taser Arrows, and a Nuke Arrow for Clint. Natasha has Mines and body covering Nerual Toxins that she uses very well.
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Some Reflex and Speed feats of HE. Dodging Bullets while returning fire. Kills room ful of guards initialy unarmed at point blank range. Reacts to a bomb that kills 200 somethin Shield Agents.
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BW kills enimies on the run and with enough speed and timing jumps from one building to another. Catches a Sniper Rifle from the air in mid jump. Then shoots down 4 target while sliding to a halt. All in seconds.
Both are in Dakens Speed Range, and Dodge Reflex Range.
So I see Numbers with equal skill winning out here.
@CadenceV2 said:
@HellionVulcan: Yet the Taser is a Constant Voltage that freezes your Muscles, a Needle arrow that can KO Hulk, and a Nuke Arrow of all things :/
Then I have Nerual Toxins that KO Spidey easy (Ultimate Peter has a Healing Factor, not as good but has one that heals Gun Shot wounds in less than 24 hours) as well others with its KOing touch.
Never seen Proof of Daken survivng that.
Also Daken has no Adamantium Skeleton or Skull. Headshots could KO him and HE is very good at that. He KO Ultimate Sabertooth that way, with a Head Shot.
It seems your going with Daken either way and Im here to debate Esquire.
So when we vote you an clearly go with Daken for the win.
But Hulk has a larger frame to hit while daken is alot smaller & harder to hit .
daken is immune to all toxins just like his father is & again u have to hit a target to have any effect .
daken has survived afew explosions at point blank range & taken hits from thing smashing his head into the floor & worse yet never killed him .
Ultimate sabretooth wasn't as talented as his 616 counter part so i don't get the comparisons as ultimate sabretooth can't do what Daken can .
I'm siding with Daken due to his skill set & powers that put him above them .
Heres some feats i gathered Here so he can survive whatever Hawkeye brings his way as daken has been blown up several times now
@HellionVulcan:
But Hulk has a larger frame to hit while daken is alot smaller & harder to hit .
daken is immune to all toxins just like his father is & again u have to hit a target to have any effect .
daken has survived afew explosions at point blank range & taken hits from thing smashing his head into the floor & worse yet never killed him .
Ultimate sabretooth wasn't as talented as his 616 counter part so i don't get the comparisons as ultimate sabretooth can't do what Daken can .
I'm siding with Daken due to his skill set & powers that put him above them .
Heres some feats i gathered Here so he can survive whatever Hawkeye brings his way as daken has been blown up several times now
Hulk is running at 200 MPH jumping from Copters and HE is in a Helicopter himself thats moving in chase. Hard for anyone.
Toxins strong enough have KO Wolverine before as well as Tranqs.
Really? You are trying to compare that small balst to a Nuke Arrow? The Nuclear Fission has way more tons per square inch ampilify by a thousand times than that blast.
Ultimate Sabertooth has a Healing Factor as good as 616. Thats my point.
Also on a side note this is a private debate of my Debating Skills vs Esquire. Not another random Battle Post of who you like more and deserve to win base on stats.
So please leave this for me and Esquire.
Edit. BTW 616 Hawkeye Pawn and Tag Daken as well. Along with Bulls Eye and Venom. LOL
Ultimate Hawkeye > 616 Hawkeye.
@CadenceV2 said:
Oh make no mistake this isnt a battle of my guys stealthing yours. There is no need. Both HE and BW have so much working experiance and fought so many Super Power baddies they will know to simply have BW who is better at speed and reflexes due to her Enhancements chase him down. Hawkeye is staying off a bit to track both of them. Its harder to stealth 2 people with enhance super vision and tracking skills than one. Super Sight is pretty good.
You were posting BW's stealth feats, so I just wanted to clear up how useless it would be for her to try it. The thing is, BW's still only peak human, so if she tries to rush him she'll just get disappeared on. Nobody's been able to just "chase Daken down." Here's Cyber trying to fight Daken, and Daken disappears and ambushes, just like he will here:
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Daken doesn't rush blindly into confrontations like his father, he likes to bide his time and get in his shots, without relying on his HF, if possible. He doesn't tank everything and go berserker-mode. Even if we only get basic knowledge, he won't take on two members of the Ultimates head-on.
You've already posted the super-sight scans, and if you recall I pointed out that Daken's been able to get past enhanced senses before, and even Spidey's pre-cog, so it doesn't matter much. And his pheromones even mess with vision:
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He sneak up on 1 character at a time. He sneak past none Stealth types as well. I have 2 of Shields best Black Ops with Enhance Senses and Visions. I have a Archer who rarely misses with any weapon and top Spy Assassin in the world.
He's stealthed his way through the Baxter Building and the FF, and he's stealthed his way through Avenger's Tower to get to Wolverine, sneaking past several characters with enhanced senses. (I don't have scans, but it's from the Gone arc.) That's multiple characters at a time. He's gotten past Wolverine lots of times, and Wolverine has more Black Ops/Stealth experience than your team combined. He's also been able to sneak up on Punisher, who's entire career is based on being a stealthy, Black Ops, Ambush type of guy, and he's sneaked up on Cyber, a career Military/Enforcer type and one of Daken's mentors before they were turned against each other.
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So plenty of experience sneaking up on Black Ops agents.
Daken in every battle and scan taunts and gets close to his targets. Its in character for him too when his Pheramones are at play. He did it to Spidey, Skaar, Wolverine, Deadpool, Punisher, ect ect. Its in character. He simply does this everytime. If BW can touch him or he physicly touches her (blades with blood on them is very physical contact) her Nerual Toxins are at play. KO him in seconds like Spiderman. Or at the least slow him down for Hawkeye to Taser Arrow him and Nuke Arrow him.
Daken will often play with his opponents, yes. But only when his victory is assured. Even against Skaar, who he had zero trouble with, he didn't play around. Just as often as he plays, he goes for the quick kill.
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I could see him killing one of them quickly and then toying with the other one, but he's a very intelligent fighter, especially once he got over his Wolverine anger issues. He uses stealth and ambushes and avoids getting hit a lot more than many other fighters with Healing Factors. He'll go for the kill if it will give him a better chance of winning.
I think she is capable of setting up mines all over the place before the Pheramones kicking in. Maybe while she is tracking him. Hawkeye could hit those mines as well with increadible ease for distractions after the fact as well.
She might be able to set them up around the battlefield, just not physically on him like you'd implied. However, with his senses he'll be able to detect them from her scent on them, so he'll be able to avoid them without much trouble.
Stealth is good to sneak up on somebody. In battle its near useless. Either HE or BW will find him or when he engages one of my guys the other will be on him in a flash. The numbers help me alot here. As fore Doging its hard to say Toad Agility and Speed is a easy target. He tagged Toad and Rogue (with Toads powers) both at the same time. Heck Hawkeye took out 3 Super Powered threats with Head Shots all around in a chaotic warzone. Even a normal 3 arrows to the skull of Daken will slow him down. How about HEs accuracy with a unaccurate RPG on Ghost Rider? Daken is no way dodging all the Taser Arrows or shots from Hawkeye. Again one solid Nuke Arrow in a 15 meter radius and its finish.
As I showed in the scans from his battle with Cyber, Daken likes to hide and ambush. He'll disappear at the start of the battle and stealth his way around, loading them up with pheromones to throw them off. Pheromones are extremely useful, as he can use them to calm down his opponents and lull them into complacency, or to get them so excited and fearful that they won;t be thinking straight. He even used them to aggravate Cyber's heart condition.
Since Hawkeye is the more range-focused of the two, he'll sneak up on him and get a kill, which I've shown he's very willing to do. He's a bullet dodger, so even if BW starts shooting him, he'll disappear again and kill her from behind. Stealth isn't useless, especially against multiple opponents. Picking them off one-by-one is a very valid strategy, and one he's well equipped for.
Again, you posted most of these scans already. They don't make much difference here, because Daken won't be running around in the open, he'll be killing from the shadows.
Again Considering how good the senses and reflex of my guys are as well the fact there is 2 sets of eyes I dont see Stealth being a major player. Also Guns and normal Arrows will at best help slow down Daken. They do for Wolverine so dont see why not Daken. Also to put Daken Down I have Tranq Arrows that KO Hulk, Taser Arrows, and a Nuke Arrow for Clint. Natasha has Mines and body covering Nerual Toxins that she uses very well. Some Reflex and Speed feats of HE. Dodging Bullets while returning fire. Kills room ful of guards initialy unarmed at point blank range. Reacts to a bomb that kills 200 somethin Shield Agents. BW kills enimies on the run and with enough speed and timing jumps from one building to another. Catches a Sniper Rifle from the air in mid jump. Then shoots down 4 target while sliding to a halt. All in seconds. Both are in Dakens Speed Range, and Dodge Reflex Range. So I see Numbers with equal skill winning out here.
I don't see how you can discount stealth. It's an integral part of Daken's skillset, and he's used it on characters more experienced, more stealthy, with better senses, in tighter confines, and against more people than is the case here. It's within his character to use it, and it's well within his abilities. I think discounting it as a major player is foolish. Bullets and arrows eventually do slow down Wolverine, but only because a lot of the time he chooses to run right through them, rather than avoiding them. Daken doesn't rely on his Healing Factor to keep him upright, he relies on his skills. He's dodged bullets in multiple scans I've posted, and he'll do so here. Even in h2h, he doesn't just trade blows, he dodges, as shown here:
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He can dodge Wolverine, one of the best close-up fighters in comics, so he'll have no trouble dodging either of your characters in h2h. Even though Black Widow is enhanced, she's still only peak human, while Wolverine is well into the Meta range. Daken still has no trouble toying with Logan. Hawkeye has some potent weapons, and they probably could put down Daken. However, he can't tag Daken, since he won't see Daken, and Daken can dodge them after they're fired, anyway. Both your characters are quick, but Daken outclasses them is skill. He's far better at stealth and h2h, the only thing he's worse at is range. But we've covered why range is ineffective against him several times already.
The only problem Daken might have here is the Neural Toxins. I'd like a little more info on it. If it covers Natasha's body, why doesn't it kill her? If he cuts her, wouldn't it enter her bloodstream and kill her from there? What feats does it have, other than Spider-Man? Would it work on Daken, since his Healing Factor fights off anything harmful to his body, even something as powerful as Molecule Man's manipulation?
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