Black Canary Vs Batman

Rules

• stats equalized
• no gear
• street clothes
• morals off
• in character

Bat noise canceling headphones

Bat kick

@allstarsuperman: stats equal and i meant to say no powers. just hand to hand

@emmafrostxmen: honestly can’t speak for Black canary skill feats. Don’t know any beyond Gail Simone stating to be one of dcs finest fighters or something to that extent.

Batman. I just can't see Black Canary matching his high-ends like one-shotting Lady Shiva and stalemating Karate kid twice, once in zero gravity. But she will definitely give him a great fight.

Batman still be ahead of the Black Canary in skill. She give good battle to him=)

Batman has more experience and skill

black canary if she has her powers. bruce otherwise

@allstarsuperman: it's like Bat already has defeated her - gagged her with a foam that shut her mouth ans one-shotted her with a single kick.

@alex_ferrana_: This? I do not know where from

Opps that's embarrassing for Dinah

Bruce, though it's a close fight.

@alex_ferrana_: @samgee: @purplehairedni1: she was being mind controlled and therefore it’s impossible to really use that as an anti feat for her in regards to skill.

@emmafrostxmen: Shiva was being mind-controlled by Grodd when Batman oneshot her. That's the only time he's ever beaten her.

@emmafrostxmen: Do you know where it is from?

If Canary could have beat Batman, she would have by now, equal stats he still has better gear and skill

@stirlingarchrr: no gear and they’ve never engaged in combat (barring mind control) ever so i don’t see them never fighting as evidence either.

@samgee: actually i do not but i remember reading about it. definitely not usable for skill based scaling. mind control feats are always difficult to place.

Bruce wins on skill, and I think morals off makes the gap wider.

@samgee: yes. It's canon. From "Vixen: Return of the Lion" #5 (Post-Crisis continuity).

@violetkyoshin: not only, he has beaten her back in late 80's or 90's, though he had some help from Robin.

@purplehairedni1: Bat-Kick has drew blood and staggered Spectre himself, dude. As much as I love Black Canary, Batman beats her anyway.

@emmafrostxmen: it's not an anti-feat. It's a showing that Batman can perfectly counter Canary and if they would fight without any gear, then Dinah should be barred to use her Canary Cry, and even if she still can use it, Batman can easily incapacitate it via pressure points and throat strikes. In-character, Dinah won't go all out, so there's no "Black Canary screams and turns Batman into a liquid".

Even with her better showings in Birds of Prey Canary's always been established as not as skilled as the tippy top guys like Batman and co. She's never been at that level and it being morals off makes Bruce a lot better at kicking her ass without the Canary Cry being abused.

People like to cope about the Grodd instance but Shiva was still fighting as competently as she was in other instances as with all of the other supervillains there. There was no suggestion she was nerfed or weaker given she was tagging Batman a good few times and putting him under pressure. Bruce got pissed thinking about what Shiva did to Catwoman and one-shot. Not that hard to really figure out all things considered. I don't think there's any context for people to use from that.

I mean that's less reputable because that was very early in her publication history but it's still a thing, I suppose

@professorrespect: well, yeah. Kind of.

@professorrespect: I agree. As much I love Black Canary, she is not as good as Batman in terms of martial arts (she's still great, but Batman is greater). And her Canary Cry still helps her a lot. Plus, even though once Barbara Gordon claimed that Dinah can take on Batman, it doesn't mean that she can beat him. IRL example - a lot of boxers was able to take on Mike Tyson, but only few of them managed to defeat him.

Wayne and rather comfortably.

@professorrespect: batman has never really been at a level where he can feasible stomp someone with the reputation of shiva. batman straight up admitted he can’t beat cassie and cassie herself has lost to shiva on occasion. it could be usable if they had a solid fight and bruce managed to win, but no martial artist in dc is stomping shiva without pis or mind control shenanigans.

@alex_ferrana_: they didn’t actually fight even. batman just kicked her while she was mind controlled after surprising her with gear.

@professorrespect: i don’t mind you arguing he can win against shiva, but arguing that bruce one shotting shiva is consistent comes off as untrue. they are both some of the best fighters in the dc universe. to imply batman is so significantly above a high tier martial artist (debatably top 3-5 in the verse) that he can not only low diff her but to go as far as curbstomping her is quite out of the realm of possibility.

mind control feats are always sketchy for martial artists already so with the added unrealistic nature of the feat it’s quite dismissible. shiva isn’t too far off cassie and if shiva can fight cassie she’s more than capable of fighting batman.

@professorrespect: that would be due to stats then and in this fight stats are equalized.

“No context in the actual issue itself shows that as factual in any form possible so again this is simply false”

^its impossible to know therefore making it not usable. it’s completely speculative. there are instances of it not hindering skill and one’s where it does. shiva landing a hit doesn’t mean that she’s fighting 100%. impossible to know in either direction. when ivy was controlling flash he was notably less combatively effective for one.

@professorrespect: if you’re one shotting someone that means you landed a single hit that was powerful enough to ko them immediately by definition. you said shiva got hits in so hypothetically had you swapped their stats then by extension shiva would’ve won the fight and the reverse would’ve occurred. batman with shiva’s stats vs shiva with batman’s stats would have resulted in shiva winning due to her getting the first hits in. that’s why it’s stats rather than a skill based victory.

of course she’s not physically weaker or slower…when did i say mind control messed with her physical stats? what i said was it messes with skill due to the character not being in their right state of mind. they aren’t them so they by extension aren’t fighting like themself. that’s how it works.

@emmafrostxmen: I know, still doesn't change the fact that she was basically one-shotted.

@professorrespect: in my opinion, people kinda wanking Shiva too much due to her statements and status of a top tier martial artist, despite her having several instances where she had clear limits and losses.

I've yet to see either Shiva or Cass or Dinah stalemate Karate Kid in zero gravity.

@emmafrostxmen: Batman has beaten Cass Cain in sparrings when she lost her body language reading ability, scolding her that her overreliance on that ability cost her actual combat skills.

@emmafrostxmen: A light punch to the right spot will still spark you out.

@alex_ferrana_: cassandra speaks in body reading. it is her first language and always will be what she’s comfortable with. if you take away someone’s main way of communication they will have a very hard time communicating and fighting is all about reading, predicting, and reacting. cassandra without body reading isn’t cassandra.

@professorrespect: mind control isn’t being in your right frame of mind and we’ve seen over and over again fighters be hindered by their frame of mind not being in the right place. there’s countless examples throughout fiction and i know you’re aware of that. for one, when emma frost takes control of people they have a completely different skill set than they had prior. they start using their powers in completely different ways.

however, i’m well aware we aren’t going to agree here i’m just going to drop it.

@professorrespect: mind control means you aren’t in your right mind. you’re being controlled and therefore aren’t thinking as you normally do or with the same objectives/morals which is why it is hazy scaling. this goes for all mind control. when emma frost controls mutants they use completely different skills and fight completely differently despite it visually looking similar due to their powers remaining the same.

regardless i’m aware you’re never going to agree with me and i’m not going to agree with you. it’s best we drop it.