Are Superman's Reflexes Underrated?

Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Edited By MikeLitoris

In an issue of Justice League, Wonder Woman states that she thinks she is faster because she is a trained warrior and her actions are in her muscle memory. Batman agrees, asking, "who's faster, Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee?" I say that this is complete BS. Superman is a master of Kryptonian martial arts, has fought for 1000+ years, and I've even heard that he's beaten Batman while powerless. It's often stated that it takes about 10,000 hours to become an expert at a skill. Superman has fought for many times that amount. He's had plenty of time to adapt and perfect a fighting style for his powerset. That's not even considering the fact that his super senses, intelligence, and speed should enable him to master anything in even less time. All in all, I think his reflexes are often underrated in both the comics and on the battle forums.

Avatar image for the_stegman
the_stegman

41911

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#1  Edited By the_stegman  Moderator
@MikeLitoris: well i do think WW has better reflexes than Supes since she does technically have more experience in the art of battle and was raised in that lifestyle since birth while Clark was raised as a simple farmboy (not counting his stuff with the Legion) however i do think he's super senses are drastically underrated  
 
No Caption Provided
Avatar image for cattlebattle
cattlebattle

20987

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#2  Edited By cattlebattle

His brain is under rated or ignored
 
I mean if the rest of his biology is enhanced dramatically, so should his thought process, the guy should be the smartest man in the DCU is all i'm saying

Avatar image for Pokeysteve
Pokeysteve

12042

Forum Posts

21613

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#3  Edited By Pokeysteve
@MikeLitoris: Where was it said he is a master of Kryptonian martial arts? I've never heard that. I know Supergirl knows some but I never knew Clark learned any. You really only see the damn pressure points scan everywhere always in his battle threads. 
Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#4  Edited By MikeLitoris
@The Stegman: I respectfully disagree on Wonder Woman being faster. There are a finite amount of ways to attack and defend, or so Batman says. I'd like to assume that with Superman's vast amount of battle experience along with his powers he has figured out almost, if not all, of them. At this level, the difference maker is athleticism or raw physical ability. In this aspect Superman trumps Wonder Woman.
 
@Pokeysteve: I believe it's a pressure point based system and he's used it on New Krypton, against Ultraman, and against Batman.
Avatar image for Pokeysteve
Pokeysteve

12042

Forum Posts

21613

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#5  Edited By Pokeysteve
@MikeLitoris: I think the New Krypton scans are the ones everyone uses. Also you said he's fought for 1000+ years. How? Are you talking about the Thousand Years War?
Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#6  Edited By MikeLitoris
@Pokeysteve: On top of his time spent fighting crime, he fought alongside Diana for 1000 years in Valhalla.
Avatar image for difficlus
difficlus

10659

Forum Posts

3482

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7  Edited By difficlus

They're not underrated IMO. 

Avatar image for Pokeysteve
Pokeysteve

12042

Forum Posts

21613

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#8  Edited By Pokeysteve
@MikeLitoris: That was a great story and I think it deserved more than one issue devoted to it. Anyways I think it makes sense Diana's reflexes are faster. It's not like he has to use them stopping robberies and daily stuff like that. She actually needs them every time someone shoots at her. It just makes sense. 
Avatar image for jezer
Jezer

3408

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#9  Edited By Jezer

How intelligent is Superman?  
I know one incarnation, Silver Age probably, was able to pick up languages almost instantly. 
 
But, what about currently?
Avatar image for termiteone4ever
termiteone4ever

13832

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#10  Edited By termiteone4ever

Supes hold back too much. This man would be freak if he uses some strength you guys shoudl read the DC online version comics it pretty good 

Avatar image for slimj87d
slimj87d

15685

Forum Posts

397

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11  Edited By slimj87d
@MikeLitoris said:

In an issue of Justice League, Wonder Woman states that she thinks she is faster because she is a trained warrior and her actions are in her muscle memory. Batman agrees, asking, "who's faster, Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee?" I say that this is complete BS. Superman is a master of Kryptonian martial arts, has fought for 1000+ years, and I've even heard that he's beaten Batman while powerless. It's often stated that it takes about 10,000 hours to become an expert at a skill. Superman has fought for many times that amount. He's had plenty of time to adapt and perfect a fighting style for his powerset. That's not even considering the fact that his super senses, intelligence, and speed should enable him to master anything in even less time. All in all, I think his reflexes are often underrated in both the comics and on the battle forums.

Man there is so much wrong in your post. 
 
-It's not 10,000 hours, it's 10,000 times. So it's pretty arbitrary to your argument and proves nothing. 
-Where the hell does he have 1000+ years of fight experience? DID HE LITERALLY FIGHT FOR 1000 YEARS STRAIGHT? And even if he did I'm sure it has been retcon... that sounds like a terrible story...
- When has he defeated Batman powerless? 
-And last I remember Kryptonian Martial Arts was pretty disappointing.  
 
I think they are honestly overrated. I hate it when people try to claim he fights at FTL but there is never any proof whatsoever. 
Avatar image for thor_s_hammmer
Thor's hammmer

7186

Forum Posts

104

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#12  Edited By Thor's hammmer

No they are Overrated. as is his Striking speed.
Avatar image for texasdeathmatch
texasdeathmatch

14214

Forum Posts

30

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13  Edited By texasdeathmatch

Unlike Thor, who is absolutely underrated on this site :P

Avatar image for suiken_seiji
Suiken_Seiji

523

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#14  Edited By Suiken_Seiji

@MikeLitoris
 
Superman has greater reaction time and speed. 
 
Wonder Woman corrects Superman, that he's only faster at traveling, not combat. She further explains to him it's because of muscle memory because she has better combat reflexes. Superman has faster reaction time, reaction time allows you to perceive, think, and act in time of an objective. Wonder Woman naturally does it with out thinking. 
 
I'll break it down to a more simple way of understanding the difference from combat reflexes and reaction time. 
 
We'll use an example of a punch. 
 
For Superman. While he has greater reaction time and speed in general, when he see's an attack, regardless of the attack, be it hurt him or not. He still has to make a decision on how to handle that punch. Even if it takes him a nanosecond to think about this. He's still doing one thing, he's still thinking, thus costing him time he could have used. Not only does he have to think about what he's going to do, but he has to perform that task of what he has thought. 
 
For Wonder Woman. While she may not be as fast or have greater reaction time equal to Superman. She is faster than him in combat because of her combat reflexes. Combat reflexes, when dealing with an attack of any kind, a punch, a kick, etc. As long as your trained enough and know how to handle your training exceptionally well, you need no thought process of how to handle that in coming attack. You instantly have an answer for it as soon as the attack has been started, to progressing, to finish. Combat reflexes stem as far as reading an attack through body language, such as which punch will most likely be thrown as a jab or a hook by the simple alignment of the shoulders. Point is... Wonder Woman takes no time to think on what to do, Superman needs to think, and that fraction of thought process could be what allows Wonder Woman to be faster than Superman in combat. 
 
Edit* 
 
Also... the difference in combat reflexes and reaction time. Superman needs to read an attack of what's capable of doing, and most of the time doesn't need to. But for those attacks that will hurt him, he has to read them. Wonder Woman naturally knows how to react to them with out having to read the attack

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15  Edited By jashro44
@Pokeysteve said:
@MikeLitoris: Where was it said he is a master of Kryptonian martial arts? I've never heard that. I know Supergirl knows some but I never knew Clark learned any. You really only see the damn pressure points scan everywhere always in his battle threads. 
I don't know if this is kyrptonian but he can fight.
No Caption Provided
Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By jashro44
@MikeLitoris said:
In an issue of Justice League, Wonder Woman states that she thinks she is faster because she is a trained warrior and her actions are in her muscle memory. Batman agrees, asking, "who's faster, Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee?" I say that this is complete BS. Superman is a master of Kryptonian martial arts, has fought for 1000+ years, and I've even heard that he's beaten Batman while powerless. It's often stated that it takes about 10,000 hours to become an expert at a skill. Superman has fought for many times that amount. He's had plenty of time to adapt and perfect a fighting style for his powerset. That's not even considering the fact that his super senses, intelligence, and speed should enable him to master anything in even less time. All in all, I think his reflexes are often underrated in both the comics and on the battle forums.
I don't think he beat batman in hand to hand no powers if he did that bad writing. It doesn't take anything away from superman's reflexes that wonder woman is faster. Wonder woman has had centuries of battle experience to master her fighting skills.
Avatar image for Pokeysteve
Pokeysteve

12042

Forum Posts

21613

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 0

#17  Edited By Pokeysteve
@jashro44: Kryptonian or not it's pretty cool =D
Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#18  Edited By MikeLitoris
@SlimJ87D: I've seen 10,000 hours mentioned by various coaches and books such as Outliers. 10,000 hours is the supposed amount required to become an expert at a certain skill. In fact, if it is 10,000 times, that actually supports my argument even more. How many punches do you think boxers throw in an hour of practice? I misspoke when I said he fought for 1000 years, but he did spend much of those 1000 years fighting. I'm not exactly sure where he fought Batman powerless, but I have heard it from multiple users. I think it was in a sword fight. How are Kryptonian martial arts disappointing? I have never seen it fail when Superman actually uses it. Also, Superman should easily to be able to react at the speed of light. If not, how is he able to percieve where he is at, navigate throughout the galaxy, and stop on a dime all while traveling at speeds over one million times the speed of light (Vega system to Earth).
Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#19  Edited By MikeLitoris
@Suiken_Seiji: I see what you're saying, I might be mixing up reflexes with reaction time . . . but why should Superman have to think of his actions if he's been fighting for so long? It should be second nature to him.
Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#20  Edited By jashro44
@Pokeysteve said:
@jashro44: Kryptonian or not it's pretty cool =D
thanks
Avatar image for suiken_seiji
Suiken_Seiji

523

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21  Edited By Suiken_Seiji

@MikeLitoris
 
 
Their training makes a big difference. Superman never got the same kind of training as Wonder Woman. When I mean, same kind of training. I mean the time and dedication put into the training she has gotten, and of course the difficulty level of her training. 
 
Wonder Woman has trained with others for years to hone her skills, others who are in league of her when it comes to strength, speed, etc. Her training is percisely what it's meant to do, to beat your opponent before they can attack. 
 
I'll phrase combat reflexes a little bit better. It's not about being faster, at all. It's about having an answer to a problem before that problem happens. For example... if you curl your hand into a fist with a slight shift in your shoulder alignment. I am most likely going to assume you're going to throw a punch, but before you could even lift that fist up and throw it. I have an answer to how to deal with that punch, all I would have to do is wait for you to throw that punch so I can give you the answer on how to deal with that punch.

Avatar image for phliuy
phliuy

261

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#22  Edited By phliuy
@SlimJ87D said:

Man there is so much wrong in your post.  -It's not 10,000 hours, it's 10,000 times. So it's pretty arbitrary to your argument and proves nothing. -Where the hell does he have 1000+ years of fight experience? DID HE LITERALLY FIGHT FOR 1000 YEARS STRAIGHT? And even if he did I'm sure it has been retcon... that sounds like a terrible story...- When has he defeated Batman powerless? -And last I remember Kryptonian Martial Arts was pretty disappointing.   I think they are honestly overrated. I hate it when people try to claim he fights at FTL but there is never any proof whatsoever. 
It is indeed 10,000 hours. 
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=10000+hour+rule
  the rest of your comment is sound, though 
  
oh, and if he was indeed in valhalla for 1000 years (which i'm not sure of), he would have spent close to 500 years or so of it fighting. all you do in valhalla is fight and drink beer, iirc
@MikeLitoris: Its hard for any martial art to fail when your superman. That's like saying brock lesnar is a master of the ground and pound style, when really, he's just twice the size of most of his opponents. When you've seen him using kryptonian martial arts, were they against comparable foes? was he using them against wonderwoman? captain marvel? doomsday? if its anyone not in that caliber, its useless to use that argument.
Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#23  Edited By MikeLitoris
@Suiken_Seiji: Yeah, you're probably right. Though I would like to add that martial arts did not invent themselves. A lot of people seem to think that unless someone is trained, they can't be a good fighter. With enough first hand experience, especially the amount Superman has had, I think he has mastered a fighting system of his own, perfected to fit his own powerset.
Avatar image for suiken_seiji
Suiken_Seiji

523

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#24  Edited By Suiken_Seiji
@MikeLitoris
 
That actually all depends. 
 
Martial Arts, invented by people but each style usually has a different method of how that particular style has came about. For example, Tiger and Monkey style, animal art forms of kung fu, they came about from different people who did one thing in particular that's the same as the other, they watched these animals act and react. The Dragon style, it came through on how you can imagine a dragon attacking. So... you already have two different styles, each with a different way of how they came about. Wing Chun, Chinese martial arts, created by a Woman with the design to defeat superior opponents, such as a "dominating" male figure.  
 
Some Martial Arts invent them selves based on being aware or imagining something, or some how by completely shure luck of stumbling upon something. Experience is one thing, but experience doesn't play off well if you don't take your experience into consideration or think on your experiences, that includes good and bad one's so that you allow your self to reach a higher form of perfection. 
 
Superman, I wouldn't say he has mastered a fighting system of his own, because one... he's not a fanatic for fighting. He does a lot of it, but he's not trying to create a fighting system, nor trying to create a new fighting technique, nor going out of his way to improve techniques he already has. Superman relies primarly on his powers, and when he needs to, he will rely on other things, such as trying to out smart out or speed someone, and if he has to, rely on skill. But Superman doesn't "define" skill as a character, nor does his fights define skill either, for the majority anyway. He defines power, and in way or another, he will try to over power you but rarely out skill you. 
 
When I think of the term skill in combat. Wonder Woman comes to mind, Karate Kid comes to mind, Batman comes to mind, etc. These are people, when in combat situations usually have an answer to each attack thrown at them with out trying to physically beat the attack, such as over powering it or out speeding it.
Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#25  Edited By MikeLitoris
@phliuy: It's not the same though, the Brock Lesnar comparison. Maybe it would be if you gave him many years to practice his GnP along with his D1 wrestling pedigree. It's hard to tell when the writers are having Superman use his Kryptonian martial art, as we don't know the true extent of them. What we do know is that every time he has used pressure points, the basis of the Kryptonian martial art system, he has suceeded.
Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#26  Edited By MikeLitoris
@Suiken_Seiji: Fighting is not Superman's number one priority, but he certainly does it . . . a lot. Even if he is not trying to invent a system, if Kryptonian physiology is anything like a human's (as shown in various Elseworlds), he is still building muscle memory . . . and a hell of a lot faster than your average joe. By now, he should have mastered each of his powers and should be able to use them in combat instinctively.
Avatar image for ghostrider29
GhostRider29

2956

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27  Edited By GhostRider29
@SlimJ87D said:
@MikeLitoris said:

In an issue of Justice League, Wonder Woman states that she thinks she is faster because she is a trained warrior and her actions are in her muscle memory. Batman agrees, asking, "who's faster, Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee?" I say that this is complete BS. Superman is a master of Kryptonian martial arts, has fought for 1000+ years, and I've even heard that he's beaten Batman while powerless. It's often stated that it takes about 10,000 hours to become an expert at a skill. Superman has fought for many times that amount. He's had plenty of time to adapt and perfect a fighting style for his powerset. That's not even considering the fact that his super senses, intelligence, and speed should enable him to master anything in even less time. All in all, I think his reflexes are often underrated in both the comics and on the battle forums.

Man there is so much wrong in your post.  -It's not 10,000 hours, it's 10,000 times. So it's pretty arbitrary to your argument and proves nothing. -Where the hell does he have 1000+ years of fight experience? DID HE LITERALLY FIGHT FOR 1000 YEARS STRAIGHT? And even if he did I'm sure it has been retcon... that sounds like a terrible story...- When has he defeated Batman powerless? -And last I remember Kryptonian Martial Arts was pretty disappointing.   I think they are honestly overrated. I hate it when people try to claim he fights at FTL but there is never any proof whatsoever. 

This
Avatar image for suiken_seiji
Suiken_Seiji

523

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#28  Edited By Suiken_Seiji
@MikeLitoris

Not entirely. 
 
Combat reflexes has nothing to do with being faster. It has everything to do on how to counter an attack before an attack is made. For Superman to use his complete power set in combat instinctively. The thought of "using heat vision" or thinking over how much speed and strength he needs to use would never come to mind. If he were to use his powers instinctively in combat, it would just happen. 
 
Superman will always have to think. Instincts has no thought process, you just perform it. 
 
When Superman fights, he absolutely needs to think. Handling various villains of human durability to levels of his durability to in between levels of durability can really mess up your game of gaining combat reflexes to handle each thing instinctively. 
 
Such as when he's fighting a human in a special designed suit. He has to think about a lot of factors, how hard can he punch, how fast can he punch, what angle should he punch at, does he have to be cautious of using the momentum of his body weight when he punches, etc. He has to think about each of these things, plus much more based on the circumstances of his situation. To instinctively act, you can't think about any of these things, you just act. If Superman did that, he'd be one of the biggest mass murderers in comics, or that it's really, really, really, bad writing. All his powers work like this. Either or... There's a lot of reasons why Superman doesn't have combat reflexes nor acts on instinct. A lot of times, you lose control and at this point or at anytime point shown, Superman doesn't have any showings of being enough control to act on instinct with out some kind of problem in the end result. 
Avatar image for phliuy
phliuy

261

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#29  Edited By phliuy
@MikeLitoris: you're not getting my point. My point is that lesnar is larger and more agile than 95% of the fighters he will face, and can do very well based purely on his physical skill.  
 
Superman is stronger, faster, and quicker than roughly everyone, meaning that any "martial skill" he uses will triumph purely because of his physical superiority. You didn't address whether or not he was using his skill son comparable opponents. Who was he using his "pressure points" on? aquaman? batman? maybe even lex luthor?  
 
Brock lesnar dismantling someone half his size does not show his skill. Superman defeating someone using a pressure points means NOTHING unless he was using it on someone who is on his tier. Unless you can show that he was defeating powerful opponents like martian manhunter, wonderwoman, supergirl, or captain marvel with his pressure points, his victories using kryptonian fighting is completely irrelevant.  
 
Also: pressure points are the worst style of fighting to ever be invented, they are at most, mildly annoying, at least in real life. 
Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#30  Edited By MikeLitoris
@Suiken_Seiji: Haha yeah, I guess you're right . . . I didn't think of that. Good point BTW.
Avatar image for mikelitoris
MikeLitoris

146

Forum Posts

10

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#31  Edited By MikeLitoris
@phliuy: Well, I wouldn't say Brock winning in the octagon doesn't show his skill. Athleticism only gets you so far. Look at Mariusz Pudzianowski, strongest man in the world. Got his butt handed to him by Tim Sylvia. Also, Ultraman is on Superman's level and so was the Kryptonian soldier on New Krypton, and he dismantled them both with pressure points. Those are the only incidents that I know of.
Avatar image for phliuy
phliuy

261

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#32  Edited By phliuy
@MikeLitoris: i meant that brock defeating someone half his size would mean nothing. 
 
Second part of your post: 
thats what I wanted. Although i find it doubtful that superman would know more of the kryptonian martial art that an actual kryptonian soldier
Avatar image for slimj87d
slimj87d

15685

Forum Posts

397

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33  Edited By slimj87d
@MikeLitoris: My Martial arts instructor told me 10,000 times. But maybe he meant doing the move 10,000 times to be a master at that move. 
 
Also, remember when he was fighting another Kryptonian 1 on 1 he used what "Batman" taught him. 
 
Those are the main points I wanted to state.