Thanos vs. Vecna

Thanos, the Mad Titan

vs.

Vecna, the Whispered One

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- Two weeks prep

- Battle takes place on Apokalips

- In character

- Win by death/destruction

- Vecna is a lich, not a god.

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Vecna, the Whispered One. Thanos is no joke with prep but Vecna is pretty boss. Plus if its in character Thanos will be instrumental in his own defeat. Heh heh.

This should be good....

I hate you, Joy. There is no right answer.

@joygirl: I dunno if that was a series of threats or if you were hitting on me.

Also I am still mulling this over. I may come to a conclusion at some point. No promises except the prime material is going to be getting the worst of it.

@risingbean: Sad thing about youtube vids is you can tell them when to start, but not where to stop. :(

@joygirl: In that case we can make out.

@risingbean: Be so glad I did not just post the video I was considering posting.

@joygirl: It probably had tentacles and clowns. So thank you, I guess?

On topic. I have to admit most of my knowledge on Vecna may be lost to time as I have not played 3.5 in about seven years. But my guy check keeps saying "Thanos loses because he doesn't feel worthy to win." So I may lean a bit toward him unless he feels depressed.

Totally unrelated. "Darkness, take my hand." Dennis Lehane wrote it. You may like it.

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Thanos may only allows Heroes to defeat him in Cosmic matters when he's trying to go for being Omnipotent. He dropped this subconscious fault during "The End" when he acquire the HotU and didn't permit himself to be defeated, instead stomping all over everyone, including the Living Tribunal, with absolute ease.

In a one-on-one conflict in a test of ability, Thanos won't let the other win. He'll destroy them unless he thinks he can use them. He doesn't need Vecna. Nor will he ever. Thanos is the Avatar of Death. Cosmic Deities can't predict or control him. His plots affect the universe at large on a regular basis, either as a conqueror, a God, or even its savior.

Vecna is a paper doll standing before something truly powerful. Thanos' mind and spirit is so dark, Adam Warlock is terrified of even touching upon it, and is quite certain that if he ever took Thanos' soul into the Soul Gem, he'd go completely insane and go on a bloody violent rampage across the cosmos that wouldn't end until someone managed to permanently kill him. Warlock wouldn't even exist anymore if he took Thanos' spirit. Which is why he is glad he never tried, and gladder still he doesn't have the Soul Gem anymore.

Thanos brings permanent death to all things. He is truly a God of Death.

None may stand before the Rage of the Mad Titan. His name is Thanos. And his name means Death.

Vecna shapechanges into a pit fiend and becomes impervious to damage from weapons that are neither holy nor silvered due to a quirk of how the regeneration system works.

He then gates in a solar who gates in another solar ad infinitum and has them all cast reality altering spells like wish and miracle to attacki Thanos, or he just uses Unname which is one of those "Save or die spells" except in this case if you fail your saving throw you are removed from reality itself and your soul is destroyed.

With two weeks prep, Vecna will have been able to foreseen every last thing Thanos will have done, and prepare all the spells he needs to engage him and counter or rebuff every action the mad titan can take. He could even use Simalcrums to create replicas of Thanos or his greatest foes with all the offensive power but only half the durability.

And once again spell contingency means that actually hurting Vecna without being met with some kind of spell to either block the effort or undo what Thanos has done will be insanely difficult.

@guardian_of_gravity: Thanos obliterates him in one shot. Period. No amount of prep for Vecna will mean anything against Thanos.Thanos w/Prep is unbeatable. Solid fact. This isn't a RPG where we roll the dice to see who had the bigger effect.

Thanos will vaporize every shred of him in an instant, there will be nothing left to regenerate from, and no possibility of regeneration anyway since when Thanos kills something, it Stays Dead. Even in a universe where Death didn't exist. It is a one-sided curbstomp in Thanos' favor, through and through.

If Vecna wins initiative he can trap Thanos in a forcecage and quicken a dimensional anchor so he cannot leave it.

Epic level magic explicitly lets you do anything and counter everything. There is a reason why you may as well stop the game once you have a spellcaster above level 21 in D&D 3.5e, because with just a bit of manipulation of spellcraft DCs you can do anything you want. Including death with no saving throw or no selling infinite damage.

@guardian_of_gravity: Apparently you don't know the kinda things that go down in Marvel. Nothing about the D&D dice system is even remotely applicable. And since there is Lore and Novels about D&D all over the place, we know that's not how things work.

Regardless, Thanos is the Avatar of Death, part of a Universal Abstract.

Thanos moves through multiple dimensions as easily as an Olympic sprinter takes a stroll down the street. Thanos destroys Vecna so effortlessly it's not even funny.

To my knowledge, Vecna has no fluff outside of Game modules and splatbooks, he exists almost entirely as a statline with a personality attached to it.

And generally, the rule of battle forums is that you assume that both people's powers work without alteration. That includes those whose powers are based solely on simulationary game mechanics.

And don't talk to the person who is *still* butthurt over Marvel Adventures getting canceled because of butthurt editors about not knowing Marvel.

@reikai: Dimensional anchor stops that

@dextersinister: Death's ban on Thanos from her realm didn't stop Thanos from getting in anyway. Not gonna stop Thanos from leaving. Not like it could even work to BFR him anyway. Again, Thanos annihilates him so instantaneously that even Beelzebot considers it cruel.

@guardian_of_gravity: Thanos gets jabbed with a God Killing dagger and it breaks on his skin. It Broke. On. His Skin. Any mechanic you can think of for D&D is utterly irrelevant and moot in comparison to this. Even if you wanted to go by some stat-complex, you couldn't with Thanos, because his stats would be Infinite, because D&D has no way to begin measuring him.

Giving Thanos prep ensures he wins automatically. Cosmic Abstracts can't keep an eye on him or predict what he'll do, that means nothing in D&D can do so either and no amount of Foresight Casting will help either. Your "perfect rolls" are Auto-Fail before him. It's very much like what the Skeleton Knight says in Berserk to Gutts; "It is as a character in a story seeking to challenge the Writer of that story. It cannot be done." Vecna is just a side-character, Thanos is the Writer. There is no challenge.

*pulls up chair, gets popcorn* Better'n I'd imagined. @dccomicsrule2011: It's beautiful.

Awful big talk from someone the Avengers beat the living crap out of in that Bendis book.

@nufai_the_skinwalker: Which is Non-Canon by the way and everyone in Marvel has completely ignored it. There's no point in even arguing D&D when any GM can turn Vecna into wuss that any Lv1 noobie can beat.

@reikai: Is it non-canon? That seems highly unlikely for one of Marvels flagship teams.

Yes any DM can let a level 1 noob beat Vecna if they want but that is no different than someone writing fanfiction where Black Widow outwits and defeats Thanos, Galactus and TOAA before making out with the Silver Surfer.

On the same token a writer could have someone ridiculous like Squirrel Birl beat up Thanos with e-wait a minute.

And avengers assemble (the comic, not the cartoon) is non-canon? Since when?

@guardian_of_gravity: Since Marvel disowned it and ignored the events of the comic entirely. That means it never happened. Thanos has not actually come back yet. Instead they put out a Thanos origin story before even considering bringing him back from the Dead Cancer-verse.

Do you have a statement about that?

@guardian_of_gravity: You don't need it, because every story taking place during, around, and after "Avengers assemble" has no mention, nor even acknowledges these events, and none of those who were seemingly involved were around during that time.Effectively, it doesn't happen within the Marvel-616 continuity.

It's the same damn thing as with Squirrel Girl's Christmas Comic. The only difference is, hers was funny, and Bendis' work just aggravated everyone. As far as the MU is concerned, Thanos is still in a dead universe.

Somebody needs to Statblock Thanos. Just cause. Then we can playtest it!

That's rather not how things work. You need a definitive statement as to whether things are in continuity or not or at the very least, a definitive retcon.

@nufai_the_skinwalker: That is a retcon. The event never happened as far as the MU is concerned. None of the characters involved even mention it. And Thanos clearly isn't in the custody of the elders. It never happened.And everyone knows it. It's no different than a "What If" story, and Marvel has plenty of those.

I noticed you claimed that Thanos would have infinite stats.

This means that Thanos has infinite strength, durability, agility, intelligence, perception, and force of personality.

I'm fairly sure Thanos has none of these traits as it would mean that Thanos should be able to kill anyone he meets short of the one above all by punching them or thinking them to death.

@lord_johnathan: Clearly you don't understand comics. Infinite stats =/= Omnipotent. His strength is incalculable, his reflexes FTL, his intellect greater than anyone else in the entire MU, even Galactus, and his cosmic energy doesn't deplete. Plus as the Avatar of Death, he can't die, and he's effectively indestructible.

Basically, as far as the D&D-verse is concerned, his stats are Infinite and he kills every contender in one shot, at the same time.

You mean like how Galactus kicked his ass right?

Or when he clearly wasn't overpowering Thor with the power gem.

Or when he primarily won against Champion not by outmuscling him but by outthinking him.

Or when he admitted that he'd rather not get into a fistfight with Hulk?

Or how Odin completely and utterly owned him right?

Thanos is mid-high skyfather level. If he fought the Chaos King or Oblivion he'd get the crap smacked out of him.

Heck if he took on a celestial he'd probably get the crap smacked out of him.

Even Zeus or Odin would probably still beat him in a fight.

Again, don't talk to me about not knowing comics. Every day I read marvel I am *still* upset about Power Pack being canceled because the editors got butthurt after being made the butt of many clever in jokes.

You mean when Thanos blasted him halfway across a moon and Galactus has to Exert his considerable cosmic power just to breach Thanos' shields?

Or when a Power Gem Warrior-Madness Thor could do little more than give Thanos a bloody nose, despite the fact the Power Gem continued to increase Thor's strength infinitely?

Or when he did, in fact, utterly embarrass Champion in combat, and had no need to physically overpower him and was so bored he just let Champ bust the planet so he could take the Power Gem from him since Thanos was on the clock for Death and needed to get all the Gems in a short timeframe?

Or the number of times he has openly defeated the Hulk and every other brick in Marvel that's come after him and literally backhanding them like they were children?

And nevermind Thanos killed the Cancer-verse and everything linked to it, including the Galactus Engine

Zeus isn't even on par with Thanos and Odin had to pull out all the stops and still couldn't put Thanos down, and that was many years before Thanos went full-on Avatar of Death, at which point Odin wouldn't even be capable of beating him anymore since it would be rather impossible.

And don't give two damns about Power Pack. Don't think anyone else even cares.

Right, right, I'm going to call in Killemall to confirm this.

As for Marvel Adventures: You'd find that many considered it Marvel's best work of the 00's, much as how people considered Kid Loki the best work so far in the 10s.

@killemall Could you help out and try to settle this out, because I really don't see Thanos as quite in the level of the celestials just yet.

@killemall:

Thats mostly because he isnt, he has never been. Thanos himself has outright admitted it.

"Mere weeks past and a snap of my fingers would have handily dispatched Galactus " <--- Reference to when he had Heart of The Universe in him

:But currently my personal power is liliputian compared to his might."

The scan above is from Thanos # 2, where Thanos admitted Galactus is significantly more powerful than him.

As per Avengers Assemble being non-canon, thats false either. The series itself undoubtly is canon because its an ongoing series, we just saw a Captain Marvel event tie in with Avengers Assemble, we also saw Age of Ultron tie in with it, and we also have Hickman's Infinity tie in with it, hard to ignore.

Although the Thanos appearance in Avengers Assemble seem to have been completely ignored at the moment, even by Bendis himself, which is weird.

Also Thanos didnt destroy Cancerverse either, Lady Death did, sure the feat can be linked to Thanos because he was the one who manipulated the event , hard to deny the power actually came from Lady Death. She being a full bloodied abstract, it makes sense she is more powerful than the collection of Celestials and Galactus.

Thanos himself was tied to a stone, being gored by the necropsy sword (which also pretty clearly shown his durability isnt infinite, hard to take just an isolated instance with godkiller i suppose)

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