I actually think Wonder Man wins. Starfire's powerful, but she does not have very many strength, speed, durability, or energy projection feats. Wonder Man is not the top tier powerhouse in Marvel, but I would think he would be more powerful than Starfire.
"I actually think Wonder Man wins. Starfire's powerful, but she does not have very many strength, speed, durability, or energy projection feats. Wonder Man is not the top tier powerhouse in Marvel, but I would think he would be more powerful than Starfire. "
Have you ever seen Starfire's berserker state?......
"I actually think Wonder Man wins. Starfire's powerful, but she does not have very many strength, speed, durability, or energy projection feats. Wonder Man is not the top tier powerhouse in Marvel, but I would think he would be more powerful than Starfire. "
Have you ever seen Starfire's berserker state?...... "
But she's not in her berserker state for this, if not specified, then morals are on.
"I actually think Wonder Man wins. Starfire's powerful, but she does not have very many strength, speed, durability, or energy projection feats. Wonder Man is not the top tier powerhouse in Marvel, but I would think he would be more powerful than Starfire. "
Have you ever seen Starfire's berserker state?...... "
But she's not in her berserker state for this, if not specified, then morals are on. "
Berserker state is simply when she gets mad and gets a helluva lot more powerful...... I was asking because i've only seen this in her profile and was wondering if he had scans..........
"@velle37: I've never seen it either. She got beat down pretty easily (along with Cyborg, Donna & others) by Non in War of the Supermen. Not saying Simon is anywhere close to that strength level, just saying. "
That's why i've been asking around.... I've been looking for scans but can't find any......
Starfire is stronger than Donna who is near WW's strength, who rivals Supes strength, so Non shouldn't have taken her easilty, but eh.......She's also a skilled warrior, enough to consistently beat Donna who was trained by and rivals her older sister Diana.
This berserker state amps her power and invenerability so says her profile...... So if angered her strength should technically be in Supes level range.... if this is true...............
" Starfire is stronger than Donna who is near WW's strength, who rivals Supes strength
Where was it suggested that Starfire was currently stronger than Donna? I'm asking because Donna recently did well against Wonder Woman, while Starfire was battled away like a baseball by Wonder Woman. If anything, Donna is closer to Wonder Woman than Donna is, based on that, at least.
Wonder Woman would win no question. More skilled, more experienced, capable of taking anything Starfire can dish out. Plus I seem to recall there was a comic were she actually did beat her.
" Wonder Woman would win no question. More skilled, more experienced, capable of taking anything Starfire can dish out. Plus I seem to recall there was a comic were she actually did beat her. "
" Starfire is stronger than Donna who is near WW's strength, who rivals Supes strength
Where was it suggested that Starfire was currently stronger than Donna? I'm asking because Donna recently did well against Wonder Woman, while Starfire was battled away like a baseball by Wonder Woman. If anything, Donna is closer to Wonder Woman than Donna is, based on that, at least. "
Very true. Currently their strength might be dead even. She was always stronger in the past, but Donna has been boosted. IMO Donna should be way stronger than depicted since she's simply a younger WW and a portion of her soul, but eh....
I'd be cool with Donna being stronger than Star...... But they're still neck and neck.......
" Starfire is stronger than Donna who is near WW's strength, who rivals Supes strength
Where was it suggested that Starfire was currently stronger than Donna? I'm asking because Donna recently did well against Wonder Woman, while Starfire was battled away like a baseball by Wonder Woman. If anything, Donna is closer to Wonder Woman than Donna is, based on that, at least. "
It was suggested in a couple of issues of Teen Titans.
In the 80s, Starfire beat Donna in a sparing match (as in physical combat, not with starbolts and lassos). Donna admited that Starfire usually wins these.
In the 90s, Starfire stalemated the Red Star in hand to hand. Red Star has defeated Donna in hand to hand easily.
About a year ago, Yost wrote an issue of Titans and in it Starfire...I can't even remember what happened but I do remember thinking to myself "Starfire is still stronger than Donna. Good."
@Zoom: I was referring to whether Starfire was currently stronger than Donna, not their teenage/retrospective appearances when they were weaker. What issue of Titans are you referring to?
Either way, I'm more inclined to go by what's shown than what's said. I don't mean to use Wonder Woman as a measuring stick, but it's all I have to go by.
Wonderman may be stronger, which is questionable, but doesn't have the speed to keep up with Starfire."
What is this based on? I mean, Starfire can move FTL in space, but the battle isn't out there. I would have to think that she isn't going to be any faster than he is in this situation.
@Static Shock: Because she has been able to fight and even blitz characters who are speedsters themselves. WW, Superman, and Donna Troy come to mind. They all are faster than Wonderman by a good portion. Also, just because Kory isn't in space, doesn't mean she can't move FTL. She can on earth just as well. Wonderman has never shown any speed feats to my knowledge, but I'm doing my research just in case. In all honesty, all of Wonderman's feats are silver age fights that either had PIS or the characters he fought have grown in power since then. I don't see anything to suggest he could take someone who is faster, just as strong, a better H2H fighter, and also has Range attacks on his level.
@Strafe Prower: I don't recall Starfire blitzing Superman, and even when she tried to fight him, she was tossed aside by him relatively easy. Her ability to fight Wonder Woman doesn't really say much, because she didn't do well, and she never blitzed Wonder Woman either. It was Wonder Woman who blitzed her, and Starfire was unable to react to it. After that, they are holding each other while flying, before Wonder Woman humiliates her with a powerful backhand to knock her away. To date, Starfire hasn't fought Donna. They may have sparred when they were teens, but they are much stronger now than they were before, so there's no telling how Starfire would fare against Donna now as far as speed goes. However, Donna was able to fight Wonder Woman, and did better than Starfire did.
Also, there's no way she could move FTL on Earth. Superman and others that achieve the speed of light or greater (in space) don't even do that, for it could have catastrophic effects on the planet. The only speedster that does this is the Flash, because his of his Speed Force aura. On top of that, she's never shown to move that fast on Earth, or in battle. Still, you haven't really explained how Starfire would be faster than Wonder Man in this battle, and you haven't explained how she's stronger, either.
Also, what is PIS as about what Wonder Man has done, and who has he fought that has grown in strength? The man has crushed Ultron's head, who's composed of adamantium. He went toe-to-toe with Thor (who is stronger than Starfire, and Thor has the same level of strength he possessed back then) and fought him evenly until Thor used his hammer against him to win. He defeated the Abomination (who gives the Hulk problems). He once supported 50,000 tons of pressure from a stamp press. He's also held his own against the Hulk, using his H2H skills to his advantage. In some works, the power of his fists have been compared to the power Thor's hammer. With all this said and done, I think Wonder Man would humiliate Starfire just like Wonder Woman did. Starfire's H2H skills wouldn't help as much, and she hasn't done anything that would make her as strong as Wonder Man (and that was considered when Wonder Woman and Superman easily dealt with her). Her hand-to-hand skills didn't really help much against them, either. Especially Superman.
@Static Shock: What? The fact that she was even able to stand up and get a lick in is more than Wonderman would acomplish. She also has fought Wonder Woman several times, not just once. She shot her once with a starbolt sending her backwards. She tried again, but it was blocked and was followed by a blitz from Kory. I will find the scans of this. She had a recent fight with Donna and even though it was off panel, it explained how they were even. Also, half the fights you sighted for Wonderman is Silver Age. Starfire's sparring with Donna is from the 90's, so I would consider it more relevant.
The effects it would have on earth is a moot point, because this fight isn't set on earth. Since it's not specified in the OP where they are fighting, they are fighting somewhere where they can use their powers fairly and to the best of both's ability. This is the only fair way to assume it. This gives Starfire opportunity to use her FTL speed or anything near it to her advantage against the slow in comparison Wonderman. I said she was as strong argueably, not stronger. Also, you have yet to show me how Wonderman is as fast as Starfire.
Wonderman crushed Ultron's head, fought Abomination, Hulk and Thor in the silver age. Thor wasn't using his hammer for most of the fight, so I wouldn't consider it relevant. Abom has been taken by far weaker opponents by simply outsmarting him. That is not a decent feat. Hulk was taken on by Daredevil and other Street levelers in the Silver Age, and one of his enemys were Rhino, so That doesn't really impress me either. Crushing Ultron's head is a decent feat, but not that it matters. He won't be able to crush Starfire's head via strength. I would consider the 50,000 tons a really good feat, but that kind of strength was only shown that once, making me question his ability to actually do it again. Wonder Man won't be able to do what Wonder Woman did that one time by any means. He doesn't have the Speed, Strength, Equipment, or Fighting Skills WW has, so it is not the same fight by any means. H2H skils do mean alot when you opponent has little to none. (Ex. She-Hulk and Abom) It can make quite a difference. BTW, Wonder Man is no where near Clark or Diana in strength. Also, WW is a better fighter than Starfire and Superman is on par at least with her, so thats why It didn't help then.
Speed in this battle, is a huge and deciding advantage.
" @Static Shock: What? The fact that she was even able to stand up and get a lick in is more than Wonderman would acomplish. She also has fought Wonder Woman several times, not just once. She shot her once with a starbolt sending her backwards. She tried again, but it was blocked and was followed by a blitz from Kory. I will find the scans of this. She had a recent fight with Donna and even though it was off panel, it explained how they were even.
Read the fight again. Kory blasted Wonder Woman, but it was deflected. Wonder Woman asked her not to do it again, and she did, knocking her back a little. Then, it was Wonder Woman who blitzed her, sending Kory into the ground and telling her that she warned her. Kory NEVER blitzed her. After that, they are holding each other while flying through the air, and on the next page, Wonder Woman knocks her away. That's hardly impressive for Starfire, and it really doesn't hold up against Wonder Man. On top of that, Wonder Woman wasn't even trying. Posting the scans would only confirm what I'm saying. The only other time they fought was Pre-Crisis, and I'm pretty sure that was a Wonder Woman clone and not the original.
Here's the fight.
Gallery
If there are any other fights they had, give me the issues numbers and titles for them
@Strafe Prower
said:
" Also, half the fights you sighted for Wonderman is Silver Age.
And? Marvel never had a continuity reboot like DC did in the 80s, so they are still valid.
@Strafe Prower
said:
Starfire's sparring with Donna is from the 90's, so I would consider it more relevant.
But, Kory gets demolished by Wonder Woman, and Donna holds her own against Wonder Woman better than Kory did. That's much more relevant that what happened in the 90s.
@Strafe Prower
said:
" The effects it would have on earth is a moot point, because this fight isn't set on earth. Since it's not specified in the OP where they are fighting, they are fighting somewhere where they can use their powers fairly and to the best of both's ability. This is the only fair way to assume it.
This is incorrect. The Battle Forum Rules stated that if a setting isn't specified, then they are fighting within a city. They are on Earth, even if there's no confirmation from the OP. She's not moving faster than light here. She's never done it in battle, either, so it's not a likely tactic for her to use. The Rules also state that they are fighting within the limits of their personality if not specified. So, that also weighs in here.
@Strafe Prower
said:
" I said she was as strong argueably, not stronger. Also, you have yet to show me how Wonderman is as fast as Starfire.
She's done nothing to consider that her strength is close to his. She needed the help of Wonder Girl and Miss Martian to stop the T-Bird from falling out of the air. If she was as strong has Wonder Man, she would have been able to stop the aircraft on her own, and the T-Bird isn't even that big.
@Strafe Prower
said:
"Also, you have yet to show me how Wonderman is as fast as Starfire.
I never made the claim. At that same time, Starfire hasn't shown to be faster than him. That's why I said it was a moot point. Wonder Man can strike her, and she could strike him too.
@Strafe Prower
said:
" Wonderman crushed Ultron's head, fought Abomination, Hulk and Thor in the silver age. Thor wasn't using his hammer for most of the fight, so I wouldn't consider it relevant. Abom has been taken by far weaker opponents by simply outsmarting him. That is not a decent feat. Hulk was taken on by Daredevil and other Street levelers in the Silver Age, and one of his enemys were Rhino, so That doesn't really impress me either. Crushing Ultron's head is a decent feat, but not that it matters. He won't be able to crush Starfire's head via strength.
The fact that it was in the Silver Age isn't relevant. Marvel's continuity wasn't rebooted, so the feats are still valid. The fact that Thor didn't use his hammer isn't the point. The point is that Wonder Man was matching him in strength before he decided to use it, and we all know that Starfire isn't as strong as Thor. Him defeating Abomination is a strength feat, proving that he, again, is stronger than Starfire. Doesn't really matter who else has defeated him. That's besides the point (although some of those losses are PIS, anyway). Also, I never said that Wonder Man is crushing heads here. It's a strength feat, that is, again, showing that he's stronger than Starfire, and that he's able to bend crush an indestructible surface (since Ultron's head is made of adamantium). She barely even has strength feats to her name, anyway. The main issue is strength level, not that Wonder Man was or wasn't able to beat these people. Hulk losing to street-levelers (PIS, also) isn't relevant, either. That fight is from the 90's, as well. Fact is, based on all of this, Wonder Man exceeds Class 100 to a much greater degree than Starfire does. She is completely outclassed, strength-wise
@Strafe Prower
said:
H2H skils do mean alot when you opponent has little to none.
Problem is, Wonder Man has fighting skills, and is physically superior to Starfire, period.
@Strafe Prower
said:
"Speed in this battle, is a huge and deciding advantage. "
At the same time, you still haven't proven that Starfire is faster than he is in battle. After all, Wonder Man has been able to fight Thor (who was stated to be as fast as lightning on his feet). Speed doesn't mean anything, as far as I'm concerned.
@Strafe Prower
said:
" I would consider the 50,000 tons a really good feat, but that kind of strength was only shown that once, making me question his ability to actually do it again.
If he did it once, that's all that matters. Just because he does something one time doesn't mean that it's automatically invalid. Things like that establish strength levels, even if it only happened once. On top of that, the showing was never retconned or anything. There was another showing of him using his strength to balance the weight of the Avengers Hydrabase (and the ground under it, too) so it wouldn't tip over off of the mountain, and that's much more impressive. Pretty sure he could support 50,000 tons again, based on that (and it was much more recent, too).
@Strafe Prower said:
" Wonder Man won't be able to do what Wonder Woman did that one time by any means. He doesn't have the Speed, Strength, Equipment, or Fighting Skills WW has, so it is not the same fight by any means.
He would still win, though. Also, Wonder Man doesn't need to be like Wonder Woman to win this battle. He already has superior strength and durability. His flight speed is well beyond supersonic.
@Static Shock: Ok, I was mistaken, WW attacked her when she wasn't paying attention, thats not the same as a blitz IMO. She blitz her another time IIRC, but I don't remember when. I'll do a little research. Also not, her blast did more than "knock her back a little" In the picture she is upside down when it hit, meaning it flipped her. I would consider that a pretty big hit. I will see if I can find more on these 2.
Just because they are canon, doesn't make them creditable. In the silver Age, Street Levelers were taking on 100+ Ton characters and winning. The fact is that alot of silver age feats aren't considered relevant because of that. I am one of those that do this.
I must have missed the part where Kory got demolished. Kory shoot her, sending her backwards and either stunning or sending her far away with the attack. WW then cheapshots her while Cassie and Kory are talking. They basically grapple and suddenly they are on the ground and WW hits her. That is a pitiful excuse for demolishing if you ask me. WW got put down once, Kory got put down once. I don't consider the Cheap shot relevant, because Kory wasn't paying attention.
It also says that not all people accept or go by that, which I don't. Plus, even if they were in a city, I don't think it would be populated. But you are missing my point. Kory could still go Faster than the speed of sound and would be faster than simon. There is no reason to believe she can't and wouldn't. I have seen her blitz enemys before, so I don't see why she wouldn't now.
That was a poor showing for all involved. any of the 3 of them have the ability to hold up that plane with relative ease. That is something someone with 100 or less tons could do, which Kory is well over. The reason Kory doesn't have any strength showings, is because she is understood to have the strength equal to Donna and Miss Martian. Wonder has had his fair of failures in the strength department as well. He hurt his hand punching the Vision. Got ran over by the Vision. Was pwned by Hercules and many other things. Trying to disprove her strength is pointless, when it is an understood part of her character and powerset.
That is false. She has proven she can go FTL. That means she could go anything less than that as well. Speed of Sound and more, which would be enough to be faster than Wonderman.
I disagree. Tell me thet Iceman defeating Oblivion is valid and should be used. Falcon beating a sentinal? IT happened in the silver age. I tend to find that Silver Age feats are well exagerated or just PIS for the majority. Thor and Wonderman were stronger back then, now they have no feats to prove they have that strength. I'm pretty sure Kory could defeat Abom as well, just because you defeat someone, doesn't mean you are stronger than them either. I don't consider that impressive once again. Hulk is clearing stronger than Wonderman and should beat him in pure strength, so I don't see the point. He isn't at Hulk's level. You said it yourself that it is a indestructive material, which means I question the creditability of that feat and showing.
What kind of H2H skills does Wonderman have? I have never seen any. period. Strength has nothing to do with this point.
Kory's speed doesn't drop in battle, so I dont' know what you are trying to get at. She is faster and would use that to her advantage considering her intelligence and experince in battle.
" @Static Shock: Ok, I was mistaken, WW attacked her when she wasn't paying attention, thats not the same as a blitz IMO. She blitz her another time IIRC, but I don't remember when. I'll do a little research. Also not, her blast did more than "knock her back a little" In the picture she is upside down when it hit, meaning it flipped her. I would consider that a pretty big hit."
It doesn't matter how it hit her. Wonder Woman came right back two panels later (without any noticeable damage on her body) and knocked the living daylights out of her. Either way, Starfire didn't do well, and never hit her again after that. Even if you think that it's a big hit, it didn't really do much, as far as damage goes.
@Strafe Prower
said:
Just because they are canon, doesn't make them creditable. In the silver Age, Street Levelers were taking on 100+ Ton characters and winning. The fact is that alot of silver age feats aren't considered relevant because of that. I am one of those that do this.
They are very credible, despite the fact that they are old. There wasn't a reboot, so there's nothing that dismisses them. Street levelers taking on Class 100+ characters is attributed to PIS. That doesn't make all other fights within the Silver Age invalid. How can they not be relevant when they are involving the character? That doesn't make any sense, to me. The fact that you are one of those people doesn't mean a thing to me. They can still be used here, and there isn't a rule against them.
@Strafe Prower
said:
"I must have missed the part where Kory got demolished. Kory shoot her, sending her backwards and either stunning or sending her far away with the attack. WW then cheapshots her while Cassie and Kory are talking. They basically grapple and suddenly they are on the ground and WW hits her. That is a pitiful excuse for demolishing if you ask me. WW got put down once, Kory got put down once. I don't consider the Cheap shot relevant, because Kory wasn't paying attention.
Looks like she got demolished to me. Even if it was a cheap shot, Kory attacked her first, giving Wonder Woman the liberty to re-enter the fight anyway she wants. Either way, Kory didn't do very well in that fight. As far as Kory not paying attention, that's debatable. She was finished talking to Wonder Girl before she got hit anyway (and was stupid to turn her back after attacking Wonder Woman like that. But, either way, this showing against Wonder Woman doesn't give her the win here.
@Strafe Prower
said:
" It also says that not all people accept or go by that, which I don't. Plus, even if they were in a city, I don't think it would be populated. But you are missing my point. Kory could still go Faster than the speed of sound and would be faster than simon. There is no reason to believe she can't and wouldn't. I have seen her blitz enemys before, so I don't see why she wouldn't now.
Going faster than sound isn't the same as achieving faster than light speed. So, the point of Kory achieving faster than sound speeds wasn't really made until now. Before, you were convinced that Kory would move faster than light here. Besides, Wonder Man is faster than sound, also. He has also blitzed people before. Even if she could do it here, it wouldn't be easy. Wonder Man is fast, too.
@Strafe Prower
said:
" That was a poor showing for all involved. any of the 3 of them have the ability to hold up that plane with relative ease. That is something someone with 100 or less tons could do, which Kory is well over. The reason Kory doesn't have any strength showings, is because she is understood to have the strength equal to Donna and Miss Martian.
The problem is that Donna and Miss Martian have better showings of strength than Starfire does. Donna was giving Wonder Woman a hell of a fight (better than Starfire did), and Miss Martian stood up against Supergirl. What has Kory done that is so impressive as far as strength goes? What's shown is better than what's said. I don't recall her being equal to Miss Martian, either.
@Strafe Prower
said:
"Wonder has had his fair of failures in the strength department as well. He hurt his hand punching the Vision.
But, he has a lot (better) showings that Kory, anyway. So, his failures don't matter. Vision can control his density, making his durability greater than normal. That's the reason why he hurt his hand.
Got ran over by the Vision. Was pwned by Hercules and many other things. Trying to disprove her strength is pointless, when it is an understood part of her character and powerset.
Hercules is immensely strong. He's towed the island of Manhattan and has given Thor problems in battle. He's owned the Sentry, too, and I believe he's fought the Hulk, and defeated the Thing. Doesn't surprise me at all (since it is well within Herc's ability to defeat Wonder Man), but Kory isn't as strong as Hercules, anyway. I'm not disproving Kory's strength, but if you compare showings, she comes up short. That's all I'm saying. She's not as strong as Wonder Man has shown to be.
That is false. She has proven she can go FTL. That means she could go anything less than that as well. Speed of Sound and more, which would be enough to be faster than Wonderman
Not exactly sure what is false to you. As I've already stated, she's not going FTL here and only does it in space. It's not likely for her to move that fast in battle, so I doubt she would do that here. Wonder Man moves faster than sound, too. It goes both ways.
I disagree. Tell me thet Iceman defeating Oblivion is valid and should be used. Falcon beating a sentinal? IT happened in the silver age. I tend to find that Silver Age feats are well exagerated or just PIS for the majority. Thor and Wonderman were stronger back then, now they have no feats to prove they have that strength. I'm pretty sure Kory could defeat Abom as well, just because you defeat someone, doesn't mean you are stronger than them either. I don't consider that impressive once again. Hulk is clearing stronger than Wonderman and should beat him in pure strength, so I don't see the point. He isn't at Hulk's level. You said it yourself that it is a indestructive material, which means I question the creditability of that feat and showing.
You can disagree all you want. Kory doesn't have many strength feats herself. Besides, you're using PIS showings to disprove the validity of others. It doesn't work that way. The difference between the Iceman/Oblivion instance and the Falcon/Sentinel instance is that those may be PIS showings, while the ones regarding Wonder Man aren't. Not all Silver Age feats back then were PIS, and citing PIS showings to discredit everything doesn't really work. Thor and Wonder Man have the same strength that they have displayed years ago. There was no reboot, and those feats still hold up. Wonder Man being able to fight those people shows that he's at least as strong as they are. I never said he was stronger than those people, but really, what has Kory done that was close? Nothing. She tried to fight Superman, couldn't even touch him and was tossed aside like yesterday's trash. Loebforce wasn't even on her side. LOL. She tried to fight Wonder Woman, and was clearly dominated in the fight. Other than being able to fight Donna, and still considered to be stronger than her, there is nothing that Starfire has done to weigh in against Wonder Man. Yes, Wonder Man isn't as strong as Superman. Yes, he's not as strong as Wonder Woman. Does that mean that Starfire can fight Wonder Man? No, it doesn't. The fact remains that Wonder Man has shown to be superior to her. You don't have to consider anything impressive about him. I could care less now, because I can already see what your gameplan is. Your only excuse is that his feats are Silver Age, using a bunch of other PIS showings that are irrelevant to his character and what he's done to support your argument (dismissing the fact that there was never a reboot present). Face it. It all happened, and Kory has done absolutely nothing to match any of it. Hulk being stronger than Wonder Man is debatable, but the fact is that he was able to fight him, thus, showing his strength level. It counts, and since both of them exceed well beyond Class 100, there's nothing to suggest that Wonder Man couldn't hold his own in that fight. Not everything is PIS because you say so. If you're just going to dismiss everything due to some personal bias against Marvel, just agree to disagree. There's more than enough evidence to prove that Wonder Man not only outclasses her, but could also beat her, as well. You're only saying that Starfire is as strong, but there's next to nothing to support it, and that she's faster in battle, but nothing to support that, either. Being able to travel faster than light in the bearings of space doesn't mean that you could achieve that speed in battle. Superman does it regularly, but people like Doomsday and the like are still able to fight him. Wonder Woman has been able to travel faster than light, also. Yet, she didn't use it in battle against people like Superman, Mongul, Doomsday, Devastation, and many others. Thor has flown three times the speed of light in space, yet, Wonder Man didn't have difficulty tagging him in battle, the Hulk has knocked him around also, Count Nefaria as well, and many others have done the same. There's a difference between battle speed and travel speed. Flying at light speed or greater in while traveling to across vast distances from point A to point B doesn't mean that said character would do the same in battle.
What kind of H2H skills does Wonderman have? I have never seen any. period. Strength has nothing to do with this point.
He has has average fighting skills. But, so what? He still outclasses Starfire, physically, and just because she has them doesn't mean she could physically contend with Wonder Man, who was able to fight a skilled warrior like Thor and match him in strength, before going down to his hammer. I also remember seeing Wonder Man use a pressure point to knock a guy out. But, whatever. I don't think Wonder Man needs to be as skilled as Kory to fight her. He used some skills against Hulk, and did relatively well. Strength has a lot to do it, as far as I'm concerned.
Kory's speed doesn't drop in battle, so I dont' know what you are trying to get at. She is faster and would use that to her advantage considering her intelligence and experince in battle.
Whoever said Kory's speed would drop in battle, anyway? What I'm getting at is that Kory's speed is moot. She would only be faster than him in space. She's not using FTL speed here, so I'm not sure what advantage she would have. If she can blitz, so can he. Both of them are faster than sound here.
Like I said, if you want to dismiss everything regarding this character, just agree to disagree. That's pretty much all you can do if you won't accept his feats. There's a lot to show for Wonder Man, but very little to none for Starfire, and she hasn't shown to be close to him. That's all there is to it.
Wherein Donna needs a Daxamite's help restraining Starfire.
And fighting Red Star to a stalemate is no small feat, especially when Kory fought an adult version of the teenager that kicked Donna to the curb. Same writer too.
I mean I don't know enough about Wonder Man to say if he could handle Starfire or not but under any competant Titans writer, Troia sure can't.
Wherein Donna needs a Daxamite's help restraining Starfire. And fighting Red Star to a stalemate is no small feat, especially when Kory fought an adult version of the teenager that kicked Donna to the curb. Same writer too. I mean I don't know enough about Wonder Man to say if he could handle Starfire or not but under any competant Titans writer, Troia sure can't. "
@Static Shock: You don't know that it didn't do damage, as it wasn't explained. Also It stunned her, which is more than what I can say for WW's cheap shot. Also, If WW was so much stronger than Kory, then she would have been crushed/hurt in the grapple they were having. BTW, you have the scan after the last one? I would like to see it.
I'm not saying all fights are invalid. Abom fighting hulk in Silver Age is Valid. Vision fighting Wonder-Man in Silver age is valid. Wonder-Man fighting hulk in Silver Age isn't. IMO that is an exaggeration of Wonderman's strength, which is quite common in the Silver Age. You aren't grasping what I'm saying.
WW didn't impress me either she got a Hit in and a cheap shot because of Kory being distracted. That is not demolishing someone. Especially after trash talking them and being shot directly after and struggling in a grapple with them. You are exaggerating whats on the panel.
Do I have to state every speed she can go, for you to accept that she can go that speed? Also, The reason characters don't speed blitz all the time is for the sake of the story, a Writer and story doesn't have any effect on this battle, so there is no reason to believe she won't use her speed, which is clearly greater than his seeing as she can go FTL in space and he hasn't been shown to go anywhere near that. Battle speed has nothing to do with a speed blitz. To completely different things.
Kory does have strength, but you don't know because you obviously are only looking for wins in fights, when she doesn't fight solo very much. She is always in team books. Also, as shown above, she does have considerable strength. I was actually about to post that scan, but I wanted to do my research on that issue first. Thanks goes to Zoom. Is that enough for you? Or do I have to go dig up more of her strength feats by DLing issues?
Vision was able to be hurt by Hercules and Thor in the same series, implying that Simon is weaker than them. Also how does it make sense for Hercules to beat Simon, but not Thor and Hulk via Strength. Sounds like crap to me.
I would like proof that WM goes Speed of Sound or Faster please.
I just got a headache from that big block of Text LOL. To Quote what I said " I tend to find that Silver Age feats are well exagerated or just PIS for the majority." I never said ALL Silver Age were PIS or even close I said the majority are EXAGGERATED or PIS. There is a difference. If you can show me a 2 examples of Thor or Wonderman showing that kind of Strength since the Silver Age, I will consider it vaild. If not, I will consider it a Silver Age stunt, that isn't used anymore. I myself have used many Silver Age feats, including the vision examples above. The fact is, I don't think Wonderman is that strong anymore, and so I choose to thik those fights are exaggerated (Hulk and Thor) or PIS (Ultron and the press) You don't seem like you understand what I was saying. I don't have a prejudice against Marvel and I won't agree to disagree for now. I didn't dissmiss or say that there wasn't a reboot, I just ignored it because it shouldn't have been brought up, because I never said it.
You are ignoring the fact that Starfire is a better fighter and that could be a deciding factor in the match. You act like it has nothing to do with this fight, when It could be a deciding factor from what it looks like.
How fast can he go? She can get as close to lightspeed as possible without hurting the enviorment. Can he?
I have yet to see scans or anything else regarding his speed or anything besides you sighting some battles which he won 1 and 2 PIS feats. Doesn't look like there is much to show for.
" @Static Shock: You don't know that it didn't do damage, as it wasn't explained. Also It stunned her, which is more than what I can say for WW's cheap shot. Also, If WW was so much stronger than Kory, then she would have been crushed/hurt in the grapple they were having. BTW, you have the scan after the last one? I would like to see it.
I do know. There wasn't any noticeable damage on her body when she blitzed her, was there? No. Either way, it's still a pathetic showing for Starfire, and Wonder Woman wasn't trying that hard. Why would Wonder Woman need to crush her while grappling, anyway? Like I said, Wonder Woman wasn't even trying that hard, nor did she intend to go all out on her. The final scan has Wonder Girl attempting to electrocute her with her lasso, and after that, Starfire comes back after Wonder Woman punted her away. The fight was interrupted by the Justice League.
@Strafe Prower said:
"I'm not saying all fights are invalid. Abom fighting hulk in Silver Age is Valid. Vision fighting Wonder-Man in Silver age is valid. Wonder-Man fighting hulk in Silver Age isn't. IMO that is an exaggeration of Wonderman's strength, which is quite common in the Silver Age. You aren't grasping what I'm saying.
LOL. The fight between Hulk and Wonder Man wasn't Silver Age. In was in his 1991 ongoing, and I think had 29 issues in it. There's no exaggeration there. I have already grasped what you've been trying to say. That Silver Age feats aren't valid because they are either old, PIS, and heavily exaggerated. But, that isn't always the case.
@Strafe Prower said:
"WW didn't impress me either she got a Hit in and a cheap shot because of Kory being distracted. That is not demolishing someone. Especially after trash talking them and being shot directly after and struggling in a grapple with them. You are exaggerating whats on the panel.
Wonder Woman only got hit once, while she struck Starfire twice. How is the first hit cheap, when Starfire started the fight after she said not to blast her again? Wonder Woman wasn't even trying to fight her at first. I'm not exaggerating anything. That's what's on panel.
Do I have to state every speed she can go, for you to accept that she can go that speed? Also, The reason characters don't speed blitz all the time is for the sake of the story, a Writer and story doesn't have any effect on this battle, so there is no reason to believe she won't use her speed, which is clearly greater than his seeing as she can go FTL in space and he hasn't been shown to go anywhere near that. Battle speed has nothing to do with a speed blitz. To completely different things.
I don't think I asked you to do that. Also, there's is more to it than that. I never said that she wouldn't attempt to speed blitz him. But, what I'm telling you is that there's no reason to believe that she would blitz anyone at FTL speeds in this battle, because she's never done it battle. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Going FTL in space doesn't mean she would do it in a fight. She can use her speed all she wants, but it isn't going to be faster-than-light, and the level of speed she attains in battle may or not be even greater than Wonder Man's.
Kory does have strength, but you don't know because you obviously are only looking for wins in fights, when she doesn't fight solo very much. She is always in team books. Also, as shown above, she does have considerable strength. I was actually about to post that scan, but I wanted to do my research on that issue first. Thanks goes to Zoom. Is that enough for you? Or do I have to go dig up more of her strength feats by DLing issues?
Who said Kory didn't have strength? I'm saying that she doesn't have many strength showings to put her on Wonder Man's level. I'm not looking for wins, either. I don't why you would say that, when I admitted that Wonder Man has lost before, and I've told you continuously, that his fights are showcasing his strength. So, I don't know what you're talking about. Whether he won or lost them was, and still is besides the point here. The scan that Zoom posted doesn't tell me much. All it shows is that she still stronger than Donna, and that she needed Mon-El's (because he's clearly stronger than both of them) help to restrain her because Donna couldn't do it on her own. Doesn't mean she's stronger than Wonder Man, or strong enough to contend with him. Do what you want.
Vision was able to be hurt by Hercules and Thor in the same series, implying that Simon is weaker than them. Also how does it make sense for Hercules to beat Simon, but not Thor and Hulk via Strength. Sounds like crap to me.
Thor got knocked around by Ultron, while Wonder Man defeated Ultron. If I'm going by your logic, Wonder Man must be stronger than Thor......
Seriously, how does that work?
Just because Simon hurt his hand trying to punch Vision doesn't mean that he is that much weaker than them. It also depends on how dense Vision makes himself. With that side, Vision may not have been at full density against Thor and Herc, anyway. Still, Wonder Man has shown to be stronger than Starfire, based on showings. That's the problem. It's not about who-beat-who. It's a question of strength, not who wins those fights. The winner of a battle depends on a lot of other things, and winning isn't relevant to me. It never was.
I would like proof that WM goes Speed of Sound or Faster please.
I don't have anything on hand, but I remember a showing from Thunderbolts #42 that shows him flying faster than Mach 2 soon after he defeated Atlas. In West Coast Avengers #45, he's shown to hit escape velocity (which is 6.9 miles/second, 25,027 mph, or Mach 32.5)
I just got a headache from that big block of Text LOL. To Quote what I said " I tend to find that Silver Age feats are well exagerated or just PIS for the majority." I never said ALL Silver Age were PIS or even close I said the majority are EXAGGERATED or PIS. There is a difference. If you can show me a 2 examples of Thor or Wonderman showing that kind of Strength since the Silver Age, I will consider it vaild. If not, I will consider it a Silver Age stunt, that isn't used anymore. I myself have used many Silver Age feats, including the vision examples above. The fact is, I don't think Wonderman is that strong anymore, and so I choose to thik those fights are exaggerated (Hulk and Thor) or PIS (Ultron and the press) You don't seem like you understand what I was saying. I don't have a prejudice against Marvel and I won't agree to disagree for now. I didn't dissmiss or say that there wasn't a reboot, I just ignored it because it shouldn't have been brought up, because I never said it.
You didn't have to say it, because if that wasn't what you were saying, the point you made in relevance to Silver Age shouldn't have been brought up in the first place, since PIS/exaggerated showings from other characters in the Silver Age have nothing to do with Wonder Man, in general. I don't have any current Wonder Man feats (because I haven't been following Bendis's Avengers since before Siege, but at the same time, it doesn't make Wonder Man's older showings any less valid. They still count, even if you don't agree. The point of bringing up the reboot issue was warranted, because if there was a reboot, that would officially dismiss his older feats. Sadly, there wasn't a reboot present, thus, giving me the liberty to use them in an argument. Like I said, I'm not here to convince you, but there's clearly more than enough evidence to prove Wonder Man is more likely to win. If you don't think that Wonder Man is that strong anymore, that's fine. All of it still happened, though, and there's nothing to prove he's been weakened since then.
You are ignoring the fact that Starfire is a better fighter and that could be a deciding factor in the match. You act like it has nothing to do with this fight, when It could be a deciding factor from what it looks like.
It's not that much of a factor, because Wonder Man still outclasses her, either way. Thor's fighting skills didn't help him against Wonder Man so much, and had to resort to his hammer to win. That is why I'm saying this. He's got some decent H2H showings against not only the Hulk, but against Rampage and Executioner.
How fast can he go? She can get as close to lightspeed as possible without hurting the enviorment. Can he?
Addressed this already. When has she ever flown close to lightspeed in a fight, anyway? Tell me. I'm pretty positive that her flight speed in battle is left ambiguous.
I have yet to see scans or anything else regarding his speed or anything besides you sighting some battles which he won 1 and 2 PIS feats. Doesn't look like there is much to show for
I've stated a lot more than you have. So far, all you've said that Starfire can hit FTL speeds in space (but hasn't done it in battle), that's she's stronger than Donna and on par with Miss Martian (with nothing to support the latter), that she's a better fighter, and that she's stood up to Wonder Woman (but, she didn't do much against her and didn't show much strength in that fight, anyway) and Superman (who made short work of her).
I've stated that Wonder Man's fought Thor, Abomination, the Hulk (which wasn't Silver Age, and in his 1991 ongoing, IIRC), Ultron (and crushed his head), supported 50,000 tons of weight, and balanced the weight of the Avengers Hydrabase (and the island) on the top of a mountain (that's not Silver Age, either, I believe it was in Avengers 307, in 1989). Then, there's time he flew faster than Mach 2 after beating Atlas (already stated this). I also remember the time he lifted a skyscraper that was throw at him by Count Nefaria (from what I can recall, I think that was in Avengers v3, which is not Silver Age). There is also the time he fought several Ultron models at once (also in Avengers v3), and another time he's actually torn Ultron apart (making that twice). He's also fought Goliath (who was at his full size, and exceeded Class 100) in his 1991 ongoing, did well against Iron Man in the same ongoing, physically, and everyone knows how strong Iron Man is. On top of all of this, his most recent Handbook entry has his strength level at 7, meaning that his strength is incalculable, and well in excess of Class 100.
You keep bringing up the issue on whether he won or not, and that's not relevant. I see nothing PIS about his feats, and technically, that's nothing more than a cop out. Still, weighing in what you've stated, Starfire still doesn't measure up. There isn't much to show for because you're dismissing nearly everything, obviously. If this isn't enough for you, then I don't have much else to say.
@Static Shock: Ok, you are telling me that because he is stronger than her, that he wins, no matter what the're other advatages and weaknesses are? Even though Starfire is most likely faster (She has traveled in and out of the earths atmosphere many times with ease.), a better fighter, a smarter fighter, and has a range attack that is strong enough to hurt him, He still wins? Your right, we have nothing to discuss.
I honestly don't care enough about Starfire to look for feats, so I have decided to just give you the strength arguement, but realize, He isn't out of her strength class, as they both exceed 100 by far.
@Strafe Prower: What weaknesses? Traveling in and out of the Earth's atmosphere isn't new to him, either. There's no doubt that he could keep up with her. Starfire being a better fighter than him is debatable (and to tell the truth, Wonder Man isn't just some brick who can't fight). The same goes for her being a smarter fighter, too (I'm not quite sure what this is based on). I'm pretty positive that he could withstand her starbolts, too. Even if they both exceed Class 100, Wonder Man actually has showings that consider him to be a lot stronger than her.
@Static Shock: She has been trained since she grew up in fighting skills from her home planet, then came to earth and was taught by others there. I consider her to be a considerably better fighter than him, even though he does have some skills based on his fight with Hulk and Executioner. But I wouldn't say they surpass or even are on par with Kory's
From what I have read of West Coast Avengers and others, I don't remember him being a smart fighter. He was usually impulsive and just jumped in ready to fight IIRC. Starfire is not the same under a good writer. She has been in many wars and has a pretty good stretegic mind.
I'm sure he could withstand them, but if she hits him with a contious beam or just bursts from close range, it might have a heavier effect, but he would survive and be able to keep fighting.
Like I said I don't really feel like debating this. We don't really argements of each other, so there is no point in arguing the statement.
" I actually think Wonder Man wins. Starfire's powerful, but she does not have very many strength, speed, durability, or energy projection feats. Wonder Man is not the top tier powerhouse in Marvel, but I would think he would be more powerful than Starfire. "
Vision was able to be hurt by Hercules and Thor in the same series, implying that Simon is weaker than them. Also how does it make sense for Hercules to beat Simon, but not Thor and Hulk via Strength. Sounds like crap to me.
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