PR Molecule Man versus LT, all Celestials, Galactus, and more

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#1  Edited By owie  Moderator

OK, I think almost everyone would agree that in a pre-retcon universe, the Beyonder was the most powerful character, and capable of erasing all existence, possessing "millions of times" more power than the rest of existence (and thus millions of times more than all other characters/entities) combined. Molecule Man was the second most powerful being at that time, which I think pretty much everyone agrees means he is above the Living Tribunal and all others.

BUT, is he more powerful than all (or many) of them COMBINED?

So, this is Pre-retcon Molecule Man versus two rounds of combined powers:

Round 1: MM vs. Living Tribunal, all the Celestials, Galactus, the Stranger, all the Watchers, Dark Phoenix, Ego, Master Chaos and Lord Order, and the Inbetweener (all at once).

Round 2: MM vs. Living Tribunal, all the Celestials, Galactus, the Stranger, all the Watchers, Dark Phoenix, Ego, Master Chaos and Lord Order, the Inbetweener, Shuma-Gorath, Cytorrak, the Vishanti, Dormammu, Nightmare, Mephisto (all at once).

Round 2 adds mystical entities because I'm interested in whether you think that makes a difference--whether his power would be less effective against them.

I'm intentionally leaving out post-retcon objects and entities like the Infinity Gems and WPOTC to avoid confusing things.

Personally, I'm obviously a fan of Owen, but I'm conflicted on whether he wins this. What do you think?

If you think he loses either round, how many entities would you take off before you think he could beat them?

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JediXMan

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#2  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

Pretty sure Molecule Man would win.

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RedheadedAtrocitus

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I think PR MM solos on this.

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Killemall

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#4  Edited By Killemall

@JediXMan said:

Pretty sure Molecule Man would win.
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#6  Edited By Sherlock
@Enzeru said:
Imagine you're the Molecule Man. 
You're 24 years old, you're huge, you're ripped, you can do some crazy, fancy Kung Fu stuff and there are a lot of small children around you, who are NOT allowed to kick or grab or bite you in the balls, but do all the other stuff.   You're superior to them, but they're more. Would you win?  Keep in mind that with the first punch to one of their small faces and the first shed of blood few of them would be scared and afraid of attacking you. Even if they grab your arms, you could kick them, you could give them headnuts, you could bite them. You would simply have to go all out from the very first beginning, since they would maybe be able to overwhelm you!  I think I would win. And I also think that Molecule Man would beat the crap out of the entities, even though they're coming all at once!
Very Well put i tip my hat to you
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#8  Edited By MadMattJaspers

Well, wouldn't the OAA have LT's back? If so, he could empower him to be more powerful than MM if he so desired. All LT has to do is ask.

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#9  Edited By Killemall

@Enzeru said:

Imagine you're the Molecule Man.
You're 24 years old, you're huge, you're ripped, you can do some crazy, fancy Kung Fu stuff and there are a lot of small children around you, who are NOT allowed to kick or grab or bite you in the balls, but do all the other stuff. You're superior to them, but they're more. Would you win? Keep in mind that with the first punch to one of their small faces and the first shed of blood few of them would be scared and afraid of attacking you. Even if they grab your arms, you could kick them, you could give them headnuts, you could bite them. You would simply have to go all out from the very first beginning, since they would maybe be able to overwhelm you! I think I would win. And I also think that Molecule Man would beat the crap out of the entities, even though they're coming all at once!

HAHAHAHA AWESOME!!! :)

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Killemall

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#10  Edited By Killemall

@MadMattJaspers said:

Well, wouldn't the OAA have LT's back? If so, he could empower him to be more powerful than MM if he so desired. All LT has to do is ask.

OAA didnt seem to have LT's back when thanos absorbed him, nor when beyonder was causing problems :) OAA doesnt intervine unless the writer feels like ..

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Lance Bastro

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#11  Edited By Lance Bastro
@Owie said:

OK, I think almost everyone would agree that in a pre-retcon universe, the Beyonder was the most powerful character, and capable of erasing all existence, possessing "millions of times" more power than the rest of existence (and thus millions of times more than all other characters/entities) combined. Molecule Man was the second most powerful being at that time, which I think pretty much everyone agrees means he is above the Living Tribunal and all others.

BUT, is he more powerful than all (or many) of them COMBINED?

So, this is Pre-retcon Molecule Man versus two rounds of combined powers:

Round 1: MM vs. Living Tribunal, all the Celestials, Galactus, the Stranger, all the Watchers, Dark Phoenix, Ego, Master Chaos and Lord Order, and the Inbetweener (all at once).

Round 2: MM vs. Living Tribunal, all the Celestials, Galactus, the Stranger, all the Watchers, Dark Phoenix, Ego, Master Chaos and Lord Order, the Inbetweener, Shuma-Gorath, Cytorrak, the Vishanti, Dormammu, Nightmare, Mephisto (all at once).

Round 2 adds mystical entities because I'm interested in whether you think that makes a difference--whether his power would be less effective against them.

I'm intentionally leaving out post-retcon objects and entities like the Infinity Gems and WPOTC to avoid confusing things.

Personally, I'm obviously a fan of Owen, but I'm conflicted on whether he wins this. What do you think?

If you think he loses either round, how many entities would you take off before you think he could beat them?

he will loose round two due to the power of conceptional magic. 
 
 
 there is reality and there is also the power of idea within conception. molecule man is able to control reality in the aspect of what he believes a reality is. physical. matter and energy. 
 
these are visual layouts i created sometime ago relating the issue.  i'll copy paste my work here. it's basically perception over reality. and molecule man's perception and his very being of comprehension is less of that than beings that are above his level of comprehension. magic..... is a type of power undefined by reality that is well above his comprehension.
 
   
 
 

 
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 

  
 
 

 

 
  
 
  
 
 
 
 
are they showing up now?
 

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#12  Edited By Killemall

@Lance Bastro said:

@Owie said:

OK, I think almost everyone would agree that in a pre-retcon universe, the Beyonder was the most powerful character, and capable of erasing all existence, possessing "millions of times" more power than the rest of existence (and thus millions of times more than all other characters/entities) combined. Molecule Man was the second most powerful being at that time, which I think pretty much everyone agrees means he is above the Living Tribunal and all others.

BUT, is he more powerful than all (or many) of them COMBINED?

So, this is Pre-retcon Molecule Man versus two rounds of combined powers:

Round 1: MM vs. Living Tribunal, all the Celestials, Galactus, the Stranger, all the Watchers, Dark Phoenix, Ego, Master Chaos and Lord Order, and the Inbetweener (all at once).

Round 2: MM vs. Living Tribunal, all the Celestials, Galactus, the Stranger, all the Watchers, Dark Phoenix, Ego, Master Chaos and Lord Order, the Inbetweener, Shuma-Gorath, Cytorrak, the Vishanti, Dormammu, Nightmare, Mephisto (all at once).

Round 2 adds mystical entities because I'm interested in whether you think that makes a difference--whether his power would be less effective against them.

I'm intentionally leaving out post-retcon objects and entities like the Infinity Gems and WPOTC to avoid confusing things.

Personally, I'm obviously a fan of Owen, but I'm conflicted on whether he wins this. What do you think?

If you think he loses either round, how many entities would you take off before you think he could beat them?

he will loose round two due to the power of conceptional magic.


there is reality and there is also the power of idea within conception. molecule man is able to control reality in the aspect of what he believes a reality is. physical. matter and energy.

these are visual layouts i created sometime ago relating the issue. i'll copy paste my work here. it's basically perception over reality. and molecule man's perception and his very being of comprehension is less of that than beings that are above his level of comprehension. magic..... is a type of power undefined by reality that is well above his comprehension.































are they showing up now?

Where on earth did u get that from, awesome (sorry too lazy to read all that but with all those scans and description i am sure u've made an awesome point )

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ThanoStomp

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#13  Edited By ThanoStomp

Cliff notes version?

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#14  Edited By Manchine

Living Tribunal Stumps.  Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one.  How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?
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#15  Edited By karrob

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

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#17  Edited By Manchine

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

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#18  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Manchine said:

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

It's true that PR-MM was below Beyonder, but it was explicitly stated in the narration, and I think also by the Beyonder, several times at the time that he was the second-most powerful being in existence, after the Beyonder. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that those statements were accurate and that PR-MM was more powerful than the Tribunal. Post-retcon, of course, that is no longer the case.

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#19  Edited By Manchine
@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

It's true that PR-MM was below Beyonder, but it was explicitly stated in the narration, and I think also by the Beyonder, several times at the time that he was the second-most powerful being in existence, after the Beyonder. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that those statements were accurate and that PR-MM was more powerful than the Tribunal. Post-retcon, of course, that is no longer the case.



Commoning accepted must be in a small group because people I have talked to consider him a step down from Death and Eternity.  The group considered him the most powerful flesh and blood but not above those two.
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#20  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Enzeru said:

Imagine you're the Molecule Man.
You're 24 years old, you're huge, you're ripped, you can do some crazy, fancy Kung Fu stuff and there are a lot of small children around you, who are NOT allowed to kick or grab or bite you in the balls, but do all the other stuff. You're superior to them, but they're more. Would you win? Keep in mind that with the first punch to one of their small faces and the first shed of blood few of them would be scared and afraid of attacking you. Even if they grab your arms, you could kick them, you could give them headnuts, you could bite them. You would simply have to go all out from the very first beginning, since they would maybe be able to overwhelm you! I think I would win. And I also think that Molecule Man would beat the crap out of the entities, even though they're coming all at once!

Funny. And I think I tend to agree. At first I was thinking about another thread with Celestials, and how enormous their power is, individually and combined. And I just thought, sure, Owen is more powerful than any individual, but is he really more powerful than them en-mass? When he was at that power level, they never really showed him battling many other entities other than Beyonder, so his strength wasn't really tested. There's a lot of space between LT and Pre-retcon Beyonder. I don't know, for instance, if LT could take on the combined forces in round 1 by himself (let's substitute Eternity for LT in his enemies).

But anyway, I eventually remembered that when it all came down to the end in Secret Wars 2, Marsha was asking Owen why the rest of the powers weren't taking on the Beyonder, and he said they were scared, they wouldn't dare to get involved, so it was left up to him. Which to me implies that they, combined, were less powerful than him--they, combined, had less of a chance against the Beyonder than he did.

So I think MM for the win for Round 1. Round 2, let me respond to Lance's awesome post...

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#21  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Lance Bastro:

That was an awesome aggregation of your stuff. I've enjoyed reading your posts in a lot of threads on this kind of cosmic thing before and I really appreciate all the work you put into the writing and the visuals, too.

When I made up Round 2 for this thread, I was thinking about your ideas, and also about a post by Lord Oraculous (I think) in another thread, where he has a theory that MM's power is primarily psionic, and a literal manipulation of matter and energy, and thus while he can do anything in our universe, he can't deal with magic stuff in the same way. Which, I think, is probably a vary abbreviated way of summarizing what you posted--let me know if you disagree. But I know a major part of your theories on the way the various universes work together in Marvel is that the other "pocket" universes are very different from the main "multiverse" (different versions of 616 reality timelines, etc.).

I think it's a pretty interesting theory (both your ideas about other universes and the idea that MM can only deal with matter and energy). I'm still open to persuasion on it. But I have two reasons/feelings that counter it, in my mind. First, I think that even if we stipulate that whatever exists in these other magical universes is not the same as matter or energy, and thus would not be manipulatable by MM, when their power comes into our universe, I think it would have to transform into real matter and energy, and so in that case MM could manipulate it. Basically I just think anything in our universe has to exist according to the rules of our universe, even if it comes from outside (in the same way that I would argue that when someone goes to the Dark Dimension or Crimson Cosmos or whereever, their bodies are there composed of the kind of matter/energy from that dimension, not the kind from ours). Now, this is arguable--I know people could say that there is also magical energy native to our dimension, and it is just a completely different thing than the kind from ours. But I would disagree, I think it's just another kind of energy.

Secondly, I think MM and Beyonder's powers are linked pretty directly in both the pre and post retcon stages. They come from the same source. So I think they work in teh same way. When Beyonder was contemplating destroying everything at the end of Secret Wars 2, it was very clear that he was going to destroy EVERYTHING--not just variations on 616 continuity, but also Mephisto's hell very clearly, since he was so worried about it, and also all other non-earth dimensions, including the Crimson Cosmos, etc. This is clear, because what he wanted to do was make it so there was nothing else left but him, nothing to distract him from himself again, just like he originally was in the Beyond Realm. And there is no indication that this was beyond his power. So, my feeling is, if Beyonder could affect the supernatural realms, then MM probably can too.

Also, in terms of what is beyond his comprehension...I think it was made clear that Owen's level of cosmic awareness was far beyond normal human, that he was able to understand things from the point of a cosmic being, the same way as, for instance, the Living Tribunal or Mephisto or a Celestial would. So, unless you're saying that the LT or Mephisto or a Celestial couldn't understand the way things work in these other realms (and I would argue that they could understand them, there is plenty of inter-dimensional communication among these beings), then I don't think the comprehension question is an issue.

But I could still see an argument on the level of, is magic a kind of energy he can manipulate. Although I think if that were true, then many nonmagic entities (Galactus, for instance) would have trouble fighting someone as relatively weak as Loki, for instance.

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#23  Edited By Killer_of_trolls

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

It's true that PR-MM was below Beyonder, but it was explicitly stated in the narration, and I think also by the Beyonder, several times at the time that he was the second-most powerful being in existence, after the Beyonder. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that those statements were accurate and that PR-MM was more powerful than the Tribunal. Post-retcon, of course, that is no longer the case.

Commoning accepted must be in a small group because people I have talked to consider him a step down from Death and Eternity. The group considered him the most powerful flesh and blood but not above those two.

O.K seriously wtf, how can you know marvel and never even read secret wars, if you did, then you would see how much of a little wimps LT and all the entities(including death and Eternity) were acting when MM appeared.

he is the only character that could fight beyonder back then

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#24  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Enzeru said:

@Owie: What do you think about Protégé? What if he was one of Molecule Man's enemies in that fight?

I never read anything with him directly in it, so I couldn't say. But it is hard, with all the retcon continuity, to really make a real approximation of power from two such different eras of writing. For instance, would HOTU be more powerful than pre-retcon MM? I don't know how you could argue that either way, really, because the ideas about what reality is like are so different from those two time periods in Marvel.

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#26  Edited By Manchine
@Rapest_of_super_heros said:

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

It's true that PR-MM was below Beyonder, but it was explicitly stated in the narration, and I think also by the Beyonder, several times at the time that he was the second-most powerful being in existence, after the Beyonder. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that those statements were accurate and that PR-MM was more powerful than the Tribunal. Post-retcon, of course, that is no longer the case.

Commoning accepted must be in a small group because people I have talked to consider him a step down from Death and Eternity. The group considered him the most powerful flesh and blood but not above those two.

O.K seriously wtf, how can you know marvel and never even read secret wars, if you did, then you would see how much of a little wimps LT and all the entities(including death and Eternity) were acting when MM appeared.

he is the only character that could fight beyonder back then


 
I have read secret wars 2.  None of the entities were willing to fight.  Molecule Man wanting to fight against Beyonder doesn't mean he is more powerful.  Just means, like all of the human race, they were backed in a corner and had to fight or die.  Heck Beyonder was barely able to Destroy and Recreate Death in the universe.  He was visible weakened after this.  LT is far more powerful then this.
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@JediXMan said:
Pretty sure Molecule Man would win.
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#28  Edited By difficlus

@Owie said:

@Lance Bastro:

That was an awesome aggregation of your stuff. I've enjoyed reading your posts in a lot of threads on this kind of cosmic thing before and I really appreciate all the work you put into the writing and the visuals, too.

When I made up Round 2 for this thread, I was thinking about your ideas, and also about a post by Lord Oraculous (I think) in another thread, where he has a theory that MM's power is primarily psionic, and a literal manipulation of matter and energy, and thus while he can do anything in our universe, he can't deal with magic stuff in the same way. Which, I think, is probably a vary abbreviated way of summarizing what you posted--let me know if you disagree. But I know a major part of your theories on the way the various universes work together in Marvel is that the other "pocket" universes are very different from the main "multiverse" (different versions of 616 reality timelines, etc.).

I think it's a pretty interesting theory (both your ideas about other universes and the idea that MM can only deal with matter and energy). I'm still open to persuasion on it. But I have two reasons/feelings that counter it, in my mind. First, I think that even if we stipulate that whatever exists in these other magical universes is not the same as matter or energy, and thus would not be manipulatable by MM, when their power comes into our universe, I think it would have to transform into real matter and energy, and so in that case MM could manipulate it. Basically I just think anything in our universe has to exist according to the rules of our universe, even if it comes from outside (in the same way that I would argue that when someone goes to the Dark Dimension or Crimson Cosmos or whereever, their bodies are there composed of the kind of matter/energy from that dimension, not the kind from ours). Now, this is arguable--I know people could say that there is also magical energy native to our dimension, and it is just a completely different thing than the kind from ours. But I would disagree, I think it's just another kind of energy.

Secondly, I think MM and Beyonder's powers are linked pretty directly in both the pre and post retcon stages. They come from the same source. So I think they work in teh same way. When Beyonder was contemplating destroying everything at the end of Secret Wars 2, it was very clear that he was going to destroy EVERYTHING--not just variations on 616 continuity, but also Mephisto's hell very clearly, since he was so worried about it, and also all other non-earth dimensions, including the Crimson Cosmos, etc. This is clear, because what he wanted to do was make it so there was nothing else left but him, nothing to distract him from himself again, just like he originally was in the Beyond Realm. And there is no indication that this was beyond his power. So, my feeling is, if Beyonder could affect the supernatural realms, then MM probably can too.

Also, in terms of what is beyond his comprehension...I think it was made clear that Owen's level of cosmic awareness was far beyond normal human, that he was able to understand things from the point of a cosmic being, the same way as, for instance, the Living Tribunal or Mephisto or a Celestial would. So, unless you're saying that the LT or Mephisto or a Celestial couldn't understand the way things work in these other realms (and I would argue that they could understand them, there is plenty of inter-dimensional communication among these beings), then I don't think the comprehension question is an issue.

But I could still see an argument on the level of, is magic a kind of energy he can manipulate. Although I think if that were true, then many nonmagic entities (Galactus, for instance) would have trouble fighting someone as relatively weak as Loki, for instance.

Nice post. i agree. MM double taps.

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I have seen no compelling evidence to suggest PR MM could take on LT. Let alone that ridiculous team.

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#30  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Manchine said:

@Rapest_of_super_heros said:

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

It's true that PR-MM was below Beyonder, but it was explicitly stated in the narration, and I think also by the Beyonder, several times at the time that he was the second-most powerful being in existence, after the Beyonder. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that those statements were accurate and that PR-MM was more powerful than the Tribunal. Post-retcon, of course, that is no longer the case.

Commoning accepted must be in a small group because people I have talked to consider him a step down from Death and Eternity. The group considered him the most powerful flesh and blood but not above those two.

O.K seriously wtf, how can you know marvel and never even read secret wars, if you did, then you would see how much of a little wimps LT and all the entities(including death and Eternity) were acting when MM appeared.

he is the only character that could fight beyonder back then

I have read secret wars 2. None of the entities were willing to fight. Molecule Man wanting to fight against Beyonder doesn't mean he is more powerful. Just means, like all of the human race, they were backed in a corner and had to fight or die. Heck Beyonder was barely able to Destroy and Recreate Death in the universe. He was visible weakened after this. LT is far more powerful then this.

So, when you say "more powerful than this," are you saying that LT is more powerful than pre-retcon Beyonder?!

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Manchine

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#31  Edited By Manchine
@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@Rapest_of_super_heros said:

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

It's true that PR-MM was below Beyonder, but it was explicitly stated in the narration, and I think also by the Beyonder, several times at the time that he was the second-most powerful being in existence, after the Beyonder. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that those statements were accurate and that PR-MM was more powerful than the Tribunal. Post-retcon, of course, that is no longer the case.

Commoning accepted must be in a small group because people I have talked to consider him a step down from Death and Eternity. The group considered him the most powerful flesh and blood but not above those two.

O.K seriously wtf, how can you know marvel and never even read secret wars, if you did, then you would see how much of a little wimps LT and all the entities(including death and Eternity) were acting when MM appeared.

he is the only character that could fight beyonder back then

I have read secret wars 2. None of the entities were willing to fight. Molecule Man wanting to fight against Beyonder doesn't mean he is more powerful. Just means, like all of the human race, they were backed in a corner and had to fight or die. Heck Beyonder was barely able to Destroy and Recreate Death in the universe. He was visible weakened after this. LT is far more powerful then this.

So, when you say "more powerful than this," are you saying that LT is more powerful than pre-retcon Beyonder?!


Comparing now adays LT to Pre-retcon Beyonder.  Yes.
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Killemall

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#32  Edited By Killemall

@Enzeru said:

I wonder what would be if Protégé was in this fight. What are you thoughts about this, Owie?

I, personally, would say Protege solo.

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#33  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@Rapest_of_super_heros said:

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

It's true that PR-MM was below Beyonder, but it was explicitly stated in the narration, and I think also by the Beyonder, several times at the time that he was the second-most powerful being in existence, after the Beyonder. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that those statements were accurate and that PR-MM was more powerful than the Tribunal. Post-retcon, of course, that is no longer the case.

Commoning accepted must be in a small group because people I have talked to consider him a step down from Death and Eternity. The group considered him the most powerful flesh and blood but not above those two.

O.K seriously wtf, how can you know marvel and never even read secret wars, if you did, then you would see how much of a little wimps LT and all the entities(including death and Eternity) were acting when MM appeared.

he is the only character that could fight beyonder back then

I have read secret wars 2. None of the entities were willing to fight. Molecule Man wanting to fight against Beyonder doesn't mean he is more powerful. Just means, like all of the human race, they were backed in a corner and had to fight or die. Heck Beyonder was barely able to Destroy and Recreate Death in the universe. He was visible weakened after this. LT is far more powerful then this.

So, when you say "more powerful than this," are you saying that LT is more powerful than pre-retcon Beyonder?!

Comparing now adays LT to Pre-retcon Beyonder. Yes.

So, you would say that the current LT is capable of erasing everything--all universes, all parallel realities, all pocket universes including those of Cytorrak, etc., all entities--basically erasing everything except itself? I personally haven't ever seen anything to point to LT being that powerful. Where have you seen indications of his having that level of power? I will grant that it is hard to compare one era of writing to another; clearly the LT in the time of pre-retcon Beyonder was far below Beyonder based on his appearance of the supplicants asking him not to kill Death. And, just to clarify once more, there are plenty of quotes from SW2 that say the Beyonder had "millions of times" more power than the entire multiverse combined--which would obviously include the original LT in it.

I'm willing to believe that the current LT has gone way, way up in strength in those days if there was some kind of proof, although I don't think he was really weak then--just comparatively to the Beyonder and Molecule Man. But I'm not sure how the LT could be more powerful than someone who was literally able to do anything to anyone; the Beyonder was truly omnipotent, albeit not infinite (thus he used a large portion of his power erasing death--yet still had more power than the rest of the universe), in the practical sense that he could do anything he wanted to our megaverse; as he stated, our universe is the way it is because it was his will that it continue to be that way. The current and older versions of the LT, as far as I know, certainly can affect mass change on the universe, but I don't think I'd agree that he could just alter everything about reality on his own.

The rest of our universe's entities did want to kill Beyonder--they participated in Mephisto's BeyondersBane weapon--but they weren't able to kill him with their own power, even though Eternity was the gunner; they needed to use his own expended energy from killing Death to do it. So in other words, the energy he used to kill Death was more than the energy that our universe's entities were able to muster up on their own. Thus, Beyonder was not infinite, but even in his finitude, even in his weakened state, his power was far more than exists in our universe. I just don't see how the current LT could be seen as having that level of power, or even how it could be alluded to or demonstrated.

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#34  Edited By Manchine

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@Rapest_of_super_heros said:

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

It's true that PR-MM was below Beyonder, but it was explicitly stated in the narration, and I think also by the Beyonder, several times at the time that he was the second-most powerful being in existence, after the Beyonder. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that those statements were accurate and that PR-MM was more powerful than the Tribunal. Post-retcon, of course, that is no longer the case.

Commoning accepted must be in a small group because people I have talked to consider him a step down from Death and Eternity. The group considered him the most powerful flesh and blood but not above those two.

O.K seriously wtf, how can you know marvel and never even read secret wars, if you did, then you would see how much of a little wimps LT and all the entities(including death and Eternity) were acting when MM appeared.

he is the only character that could fight beyonder back then

I have read secret wars 2. None of the entities were willing to fight. Molecule Man wanting to fight against Beyonder doesn't mean he is more powerful. Just means, like all of the human race, they were backed in a corner and had to fight or die. Heck Beyonder was barely able to Destroy and Recreate Death in the universe. He was visible weakened after this. LT is far more powerful then this.

So, when you say "more powerful than this," are you saying that LT is more powerful than pre-retcon Beyonder?!

Comparing now adays LT to Pre-retcon Beyonder. Yes.

So, you would say that the current LT is capable of erasing everything--all universes, all parallel realities, all pocket universes including those of Cytorrak, etc., all entities--basically erasing everything except itself? I personally haven't ever seen anything to point to LT being that powerful. Where have you seen indications of his having that level of power? I will grant that it is hard to compare one era of writing to another; clearly the LT in the time of pre-retcon Beyonder was far below Beyonder based on his appearance of the supplicants asking him not to kill Death. And, just to clarify once more, there are plenty of quotes from SW2 that say the Beyonder had "millions of times" more power than the entire multiverse combined--which would obviously include the original LT in it.

I'm willing to believe that the current LT has gone way, way up in strength in those days if there was some kind of proof, although I don't think he was really weak then--just comparatively to the Beyonder and Molecule Man. But I'm not sure how the LT could be more powerful than someone who was literally able to do anything to anyone; the Beyonder was truly omnipotent, albeit not infinite (thus he used a large portion of his power erasing death--yet still had more power than the rest of the universe), in the practical sense that he could do anything he wanted to our megaverse; as he stated, our universe is the way it is because it was his will that it continue to be that way. The current and older versions of the LT, as far as I know, certainly can affect mass change on the universe, but I don't think I'd agree that he could just alter everything about reality on his own.

The rest of our universe's entities did want to kill Beyonder--they participated in Mephisto's BeyondersBane weapon--but they weren't able to kill him with their own power, even though Eternity was the gunner; they needed to use his own expended energy from killing Death to do it. So in other words, the energy he used to kill Death was more than the energy that our universe's entities were able to muster up on their own. Thus, Beyonder was not infinite, but even in his finitude, even in his weakened state, his power was far more than exists in our universe. I just don't see how the current LT could be seen as having that level of power, or even how it could be alluded to or demonstrated.

Beyonder never effected Multiple Dimensions either. Although I did make a mistake LT is unknown if he is stronger then beyonder. I was thinking LT is more powerful then prerecton Molecule Man, thats what I meant to say.

LT isn't a single dimension being. He exists on Multiple Dimensions and can effect multiple dimensions. This is where it gets tricky. =) By History Beyonder should be more powerful. By what they have done Living Tribunal is more powerful. I bet ya if they did a secret wars now Beyonder would be more powerful then Living Tribunal.

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#35  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Manchine said:

Beyonder never effected Multiple Dimensions either. Although I did make a mistake LT is unknown if he is stronger then beyonder. I was thinking LT is more powerful then prerecton Molecule Man, thats what I meant to say.

LT isn't a single dimension being. He exists on Multiple Dimensions and can effect multiple dimensions. This is where it gets tricky. =) By History Beyonder should be more powerful. By what they have done Living Tribunal is more powerful. I bet ya if they did a secret wars now Beyonder would be more powerful then Living Tribunal.

OK, I see where you're coming from at least, enough to drop the matter anyway.

But just one thing, which is that the point of what Beyonder was going to do was to erase all dimensions, so that there would be nothing left in any way to remind him that there was ever anything except himself.

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#36  Edited By monarch2016

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@Rapest_of_super_heros said:

@Manchine said:

@Owie said:

@Manchine said:

@karrob said:

@Manchine said:

Living Tribunal Stumps. Living Tribunal can effect Multiple dimensions not just one. How does anyone think he is above Living Tribunal?

Well PR Molecule Man was above LT. He and the Beyonder were the most powerful beings in the multiverse. It's been retconned now though.

Beyonder was the most powerful being in the multiverse. PR Molecule Man was well below the beyonder. Unless I am mistaken biggest thing Molecule Man did was recreate a Galaxy. Which is still less then Death and Eternity.

It's true that PR-MM was below Beyonder, but it was explicitly stated in the narration, and I think also by the Beyonder, several times at the time that he was the second-most powerful being in existence, after the Beyonder. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that those statements were accurate and that PR-MM was more powerful than the Tribunal. Post-retcon, of course, that is no longer the case.

Commoning accepted must be in a small group because people I have talked to consider him a step down from Death and Eternity. The group considered him the most powerful flesh and blood but not above those two.

O.K seriously wtf, how can you know marvel and never even read secret wars, if you did, then you would see how much of a little wimps LT and all the entities(including death and Eternity) were acting when MM appeared.

he is the only character that could fight beyonder back then

I have read secret wars 2. None of the entities were willing to fight. Molecule Man wanting to fight against Beyonder doesn't mean he is more powerful. Just means, like all of the human race, they were backed in a corner and had to fight or die. Heck Beyonder was barely able to Destroy and Recreate Death in the universe. He was visible weakened after this. LT is far more powerful then this.

So, when you say "more powerful than this," are you saying that LT is more powerful than pre-retcon Beyonder?!

Comparing now adays LT to Pre-retcon Beyonder. Yes.

So, you would say that the current LT is capable of erasing everything--all universes, all parallel realities, all pocket universes including those of Cytorrak, etc., all entities--basically erasing everything except itself? I personally haven't ever seen anything to point to LT being that powerful. Where have you seen indications of his having that level of power? I will grant that it is hard to compare one era of writing to another; clearly the LT in the time of pre-retcon Beyonder was far below Beyonder based on his appearance of the supplicants asking him not to kill Death. And, just to clarify once more, there are plenty of quotes from SW2 that say the Beyonder had "millions of times" more power than the entire multiverse combined--which would obviously include the original LT in it.

I'm willing to believe that the current LT has gone way, way up in strength in those days if there was some kind of proof, although I don't think he was really weak then--just comparatively to the Beyonder and Molecule Man. But I'm not sure how the LT could be more powerful than someone who was literally able to do anything to anyone; the Beyonder was truly omnipotent, albeit not infinite (thus he used a large portion of his power erasing death--yet still had more power than the rest of the universe), in the practical sense that he could do anything he wanted to our megaverse; as he stated, our universe is the way it is because it was his will that it continue to be that way. The current and older versions of the LT, as far as I know, certainly can affect mass change on the universe, but I don't think I'd agree that he could just alter everything about reality on his own.

The rest of our universe's entities did want to kill Beyonder--they participated in Mephisto's BeyondersBane weapon--but they weren't able to kill him with their own power, even though Eternity was the gunner; they needed to use his own expended energy from killing Death to do it. So in other words, the energy he used to kill Death was more than the energy that our universe's entities were able to muster up on their own. Thus, Beyonder was not infinite, but even in his finitude, even in his weakened state, his power was far more than exists in our universe. I just don't see how the current LT could be seen as having that level of power, or even how it could be alluded to or demonstrated.

Beyonder never effected Multiple Dimensions either. Although I did make a mistake LT is unknown if he is stronger then beyonder. I was thinking LT is more powerful then prerecton Molecule Man, thats what I meant to say.

LT isn't a single dimension being. He exists on Multiple Dimensions and can effect multiple dimensions. This is where it gets tricky. =) By History Beyonder should be more powerful. By what they have done Living Tribunal is more powerful. I bet ya if they did a secret wars now Beyonder would be more powerful then Living Tribunal.

PR beyonder is so above LT that is not even funny

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Lance Bastro

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#37  Edited By Lance Bastro
@Owie said:

@Lance Bastro:

That was an awesome aggregation of your stuff. I've enjoyed reading your posts in a lot of threads on this kind of cosmic thing before and I really appreciate all the work you put into the writing and the visuals, too.

When I made up Round 2 for this thread, I was thinking about your ideas, and also about a post by Lord Oraculous (I think) in another thread, where he has a theory that MM's power is primarily psionic, and a literal manipulation of matter and energy, and thus while he can do anything in our universe, he can't deal with magic stuff in the same way. Which, I think, is probably a vary abbreviated way of summarizing what you posted--let me know if you disagree. But I know a major part of your theories on the way the various universes work together in Marvel is that the other "pocket" universes are very different from the main "multiverse" (different versions of 616 reality timelines, etc.).

I think it's a pretty interesting theory (both your ideas about other universes and the idea that MM can only deal with matter and energy). I'm still open to persuasion on it. But I have two reasons/feelings that counter it, in my mind. First, I think that even if we stipulate that whatever exists in these other magical universes is not the same as matter or energy, and thus would not be manipulatable by MM, when their power comes into our universe, I think it would have to transform into real matter and energy, and so in that case MM could manipulate it. Basically I just think anything in our universe has to exist according to the rules of our universe, even if it comes from outside (in the same way that I would argue that when someone goes to the Dark Dimension or Crimson Cosmos or whereever, their bodies are there composed of the kind of matter/energy from that dimension, not the kind from ours). Now, this is arguable--I know people could say that there is also magical energy native to our dimension, and it is just a completely different thing than the kind from ours. But I would disagree, I think it's just another kind of energy.

Secondly, I think MM and Beyonder's powers are linked pretty directly in both the pre and post retcon stages. They come from the same source. So I think they work in teh same way. When Beyonder was contemplating destroying everything at the end of Secret Wars 2, it was very clear that he was going to destroy EVERYTHING--not just variations on 616 continuity, but also Mephisto's hell very clearly, since he was so worried about it, and also all other non-earth dimensions, including the Crimson Cosmos, etc. This is clear, because what he wanted to do was make it so there was nothing else left but him, nothing to distract him from himself again, just like he originally was in the Beyond Realm. And there is no indication that this was beyond his power. So, my feeling is, if Beyonder could affect the supernatural realms, then MM probably can too.

Also, in terms of what is beyond his comprehension...I think it was made clear that Owen's level of cosmic awareness was far beyond normal human, that he was able to understand things from the point of a cosmic being, the same way as, for instance, the Living Tribunal or Mephisto or a Celestial would. So, unless you're saying that the LT or Mephisto or a Celestial couldn't understand the way things work in these other realms (and I would argue that they could understand them, there is plenty of inter-dimensional communication among these beings), then I don't think the comprehension question is an issue.

But I could still see an argument on the level of, is magic a kind of energy he can manipulate. Although I think if that were true, then many nonmagic entities (Galactus, for instance) would have trouble fighting someone as relatively weak as Loki, for instance.

 
 

thanks, owie, but before i get things started off here, i would like to apologize for such a belated reply. if it had not been for my pms, i would have definitely missed out on this. secondly, lord oraculous and i don't exactly see eye to eye on things, but we do share one common trait and that is mysticism. anyway, let's get the fire works started shall we.  
 
i had a feeling that when you created round two you were looking for some kind of reasonable explanation of why marvel had been so vague in the comparison to its mystical deities towards its cosmic counterparts. well, there are hints that marvel planted during the years of its 30 year history when stan lee was still head of the house. you will find somewhere that there is a marvel hierarchy that is literally true to itself, but you are not going to find it here throughout mass opinions of comic vine. however, i will explain briefly here that when marvel started becoming mainstream; i say mainstream because it was running since the late 1930's; marvel was a fan of science. the comic company used to be into printing primary for romance, detective and some world propaganda novels and comics. in the 60's it started to evolve into something more science fiction. this is mainly because of stan lee. stan lee was a big science fan and in the 60's science was become more mainstream and thus.... marvel. just remember that when marvel started pushing into the cosmics, the popular star trek tv show was created and then everyone was into science. 
 
looking back in the past, stan created an army of science based characters spanning 1961 through up until 1963 when he created dr. strange. now, he left all the science base characters earth bound, and the only one not to be earth bound was dr. strange. the purpose of strange's character was to go beyond the cosmos, meaning passed that barriers of our universe. and stan created a whole hierarchy for this character. cyttorak (1964) was one of the very 1st mentioned deities and remained abstract until it was finally physically manifested in the early 1990's. cyttorak was a character made specifically for the hierarchy for dr. strange comics. the character juggernaut (1965) came a year afterwards. this is when eternity, galactus, stranger started popping up and the cosmic hierarchy starting building up.  
 
now remember, all the while earth bound character and cosmic characters are separate doing their own things, dr. strange was the one traveling from earth passed the cosmic space where galactus and passed the boundaries of eternity to get to a place called, "world beyond worlds" ---later-to-be-called---- the extra-dimensions. dr. strange was actually bumping into these guys during his travels and actually having to fight some of them.... and he wins.... 
 

why is this? 

 
history tells it: it's the power of the extra-dimensional planes! 
 
 
the hierarchy is like a tri-force. 3 triangles of types & class and with it, its tiers.   
the 3 triangles are: 
 
  1. omniverse [extra-dimensional] (mysticism)
  2. hyperverse [inter dimensional] 
  3. universe/multiverse [inter/inner dimensional] (physics)
 

 
  
now the living tribunal was 1st mentioned in the late 60's, but where did he come from? he wasn't created within the universe that is eternity. he came from extra-dimensional realm to maintain balance and judgement of eternity and the universe. that's right; he's an omniversal based character, just like cyttorak and the rest of those dr. strange hierarchies. and where did beyonder come from? same place.  
 
 
 
 

where did molecule man come from? earth

 
now, before we get started with molecule man, consider these things as highlights. 
 
  • power of physics
  • power of idea
  • power of magic
 
  what is physics?  
  1. gravity
  2. electromagnetism
  3. strong bound
  4. weak bound 

these 4 things create matter, mass, weight, density, frequency, energy and physical power. these four structures of the universe and what makes physical reality possible is intertwined by two spacial-dimensions called space and time. space gives us direction; time gives us movement. 
 
 note: they say that eternity is the embodiment of all living things, but he is more like the "space" for all physical things reside and the "time" for all physical things to move. ex: eternity/infinity and vice versa. 
 
 

 what is the power of idea? 
  1. thought
  2. comprehension
  3. perspective
  4. perception
 
 
  
what is the power of magic? 
  1. intuition
  2. influence
  3. miracle/curse
  4. reflection/mirror
 
in reality, we can only express magic in words with the power of idea, but there again, it is not the same thing. magical is actually a defiance for both idea and physics.  
ie: "world beyond worlds ---- idea beyond ideas.
ex2: we can say yes, but it can really mean no, or if we switch back to saying no, it can really have the same meaning as no or an different meaning entirely or no meaning at all.  there is no logic behind it.  
 --- magic is 'illogical'. ---
 
 ex3: 1+1= 8

No Caption Provided

 
 so off to molecule man......

he (lord oraculus) has a theory that MM's power is primarily psionic, and a literal manipulation of matter and energy, and thus while he can do anything in our universe, he can't deal with magic stuff in the same way. Which, I think, is probably a vary abbreviated way of summarizing what you posted--let me know if you disagree.

well it's not about me having to agree or disagree with him, it is more about me having to define it clearer. any character that has the power to have mind over matter or the power to have mind over some other form of energy like magnetism, lighting, wind, water, or cosmic -ISzzzzz- and i can't stretch that word more than it possibly could, but is (and has too) psionical. 
 
why does it have to be? 
thoughts are the means of control. it is the medium that causes the effects what is going on through another medium or surrounding. having said that; it can be translated to literal matter/energy manipulation. remember the physic/magic/idea list i posted above. the idea is the medium. it causes the acts. 
 
 

  

I'm still open to persuasion on it. But I have two reasons/feelings that counter it, in my mind. First, I think that even if we stipulate that whatever exists in these other magical universes is not the same as matter or energy, and thus would not be manipulatable by MM, when their power comes into our universe, I think it would have to transform into real matter and energy, and so in that case MM could manipulate it. Basically I just think anything in our universe has to exist according to the rules of our universe, even if it comes from outside (in the same way that I would argue that when someone goes to the Dark Dimension or Crimson Cosmos or whereever, their bodies are there composed of the kind of matter/energy from that dimension, not the kind from ours). Now, this is arguable--I know people could say that there is also magical energy native to our dimension, and it is just a completely different thing than the kind from ours. But I would disagree, I think it's just another kind of energy.


very good reasoning, but that's one of those things that confuse alot of people. which also, marvel had too--- answered before. but people these days forget these answers explained a long time ago. when extra-dimensional magical energy enters the being that is eternity, it becomes an encrypted invisible code that eternity can not detect nor translate. and it streams inside though a extra-dimensional conduit right to the source it is summoned to or beaconed  to. so it can exist within our physical universe, and "act" as a physical energy, when it is just really hologram with a forcefield. so to speak.... 
 
take the juggernaut for example: magneto tried to lock on his atoms, but he could not. in our reality.... you and i are constructed out of electrons. if i came up to you and shook your hand, we would not be touching hands, but the electrons that spin around our molecules. our bodies are mere forcefields of the 4 fundamental forces that make us. yet.... juggernaut proved that his molecules (ever since becoming the juggernaut) is not the same as ours. he is just a magical hologram that this reality can't read, translate or alter.
  
    

there are other such incidents that occurred similar to this such as dr. strange trying to destroy crystal shards from the crimson cosmos and tries to reason that it is not the same molecules as what he knows what molecules are.
 
    
No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided


 so it's not energy from eternity.  
 abundance in his being as cosmic (4 fundamental) energy. 
 this is an abundant energy coming from another place (source/reality/universe) 
 
 

 

I know people could say that there is also magical energy native to our dimension, and it is just a completely different thing than the kind from ours.


yes, that's not really true, and you are right for disagreeing with that.  magical energy even if it is within the pocketed realms of our dimension (eternity) have an origin. and this relates to all the pantheons that reside in the pockets of eternity. pantheons and demons are magical beings. but they haven't always resided in eternity, they spawned....from the elder gods..... which in turns spawned from the magical power of demiurge. demiurge is said to be creation incarnate, but where did he come from? was he always a part of eternity or did he come from the outside? (extra-dimension) all the inner-dimensional realms that hold hell lords and skyfathers are using demiurge's powers. and demiurge's power translates differently like all other extra-dimensional powers (ie: cyttorak as opposed to raggaddorr as opposed to ikkon etc...) the pocket realms within eternity were created their by the magic of either the hell lords or of a sky father. magical energy can't be native to eternity because if that were true, eternity wouldn't be magician....... 
 
and speaking of magicians  
there comes the word... conjure... 
 
 

what is conjuring power?

 
to conjure is to summon, to invoke or to pray for extra power.  the person asking for this power can make the impossible possible and vice versa. conjuring power is a power of an outside source and it has a lot more to do with a soul acting as a medium as opposed to the mind. so conjuring power is not psionic. unlike personal power and the ability to channel ambient and by controlling it psionically, conjuring power has true endlessness since the omniverse and its extra-dimensions are much vaster than the multiverse as a whole; furthermore, the power becomes more potent depending where the power is coming from. ie: raggaddorr, vishanti, zom etc... 
 
aside from the fact that dr. strange is a conjuring powerhouse. there are others such as dr. doom, dormammu, and even eternity and the living tribunal. 

    
No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

 
 

conjuring power vs personal power vs psionic powers

 

1st of all; what is personal power? how do we define it?  
the best character i can really think of right now is goku from the anime/manga dragon ball.  
personal power is like ki. the power to generate energy from within yourself with no outside forces helping in. i will differentiate ki (inner power) from chi (outter power) which i will explain as ambient energy around you. personal power is your inner power and how much you can store in yourself using the outside ambient energy without destroying yourself.  
 
you can think of it as computer RAM and bandwidth.  
for example: your body is RAM (random access memory) ---- how large is your RAM depends on your personal power. now RAM receives data through a conduit called a bus. 8-bit bus, 16-bit bus, 32-bit buts and so on...----  these buses travel at a speed called hertz. Let's say the RAM is 32 megabytes big. that means it can only store 32MB before spitting it out. The end result is called a bandwidth.  the higher the RAM, the bigger the bus and the faster of hertz depend on the end results. if you receive more than 32-MB at a time (due to bottleneck effect) , your system will pretty much slow down and crash and the RAM fries... 
 
That's the analogy here:  
the x-man, bishop has a personal power to store in kinetic energy from the outside. he has a limit and the same can be said to the x-factor strong guy and same with the hellfire club sabastian shaw.  if you take in too much; you fry.......  in addition; dr. strange had personal power too, let that be known.... it's just that he doesn't use it that much. ie: when dr. strange started training to be a magician, the ancient one was training strange to control, store and utilize ambient engery (ki/chi)  
 
note: the ancient one is of asian origin that mastered martial arts the same as magic. 
 
 
 
psionic power again, is the power to mentally envision and control these energies into your own bidding. 
 
  
 power you can absorb
 power you can absorb

 power you can generate
 power you can generate
    
 
 all having physical effect in your space around you (universe)
 all having physical effect in your space around you (universe)

 the power you ask for through other sources beyond your universal reach
 the power you ask for through other sources beyond your universal reach
 
 
 
 
  

 Secondly, I think MM and Beyonder's powers are linked pretty directly in both the pre and post retcon stages. They come from the same source. So I think they work in teh same way. When Beyonder was contemplating destroying everything at the end of Secret Wars 2, it was very clear that he was going to destroy EVERYTHING--not just variations on 616 continuity, but also Mephisto's hell very clearly, since he was so worried about it, and also all other non-earth dimensions, including the Crimson Cosmos, etc. This is clear, because what he wanted to do was make it so there was nothing else left but him, nothing to distract him from himself again, just like he originally was in the Beyond Realm. And there is no indication that this was beyond his power. So, my feeling is, if Beyonder could affect the supernatural realms, then MM probably can too.


ok now we can finally get into molecule..... finally
 
Molecule Man
Molecule Man
 
 
reece (1963) originated from earth. he got his powers by a scientific accident cited within the 1st three paragraphs above. the accident altered his body and gave his mind a direct link into molecules of everything physical thing inside a physical universe. the late reece, however, had a limitation due to his confident block. he could only alter inanimate object. he became one of the main villains of the earily 60's, until he died.... (twice in classic times: once by the watcher and the other time by dr. doom)  but reece figured out a way to transfer parts of his consciousness through molecules. this gave him the power to become semi-immortal. now, reece has the power to posses people and object and being virtually immortal through the constructs of a molecule.
 
 
 


 

however, he wasn't always so powerful.... it took reece some time to break down the self-confidence wall and really learn how to utilize his powers to the max. he once disassembled irons armor with ease, but didn't know how put it back together in a working state. that's because reece didn't know mechanics, or electronics or what makes matter into energy and energy into matter, gas or liquid....  he soon build up his comprehension of things and became even more powerful and dangerous.  
 
keep in mind that when reece 1st discovered his powers, the beyonder was there. we just don't know if his powers were granted to him or that by some how, the accident that reece did transfered some of beyonder's power to himelf....  later we discover in the 80's that his powers are even beyond molecules. He practically has the power of the 4 fundamentals of reality at a very high degree and magnitude. and he controls it though his power of idea.... 
 
but only the ideas of  that which he can comprehend....
 
 
now what we have to remember here is that when reece was fighting against beyonder.... he lost.... twice.... 
beyonder was infinitely more powerful than reece, beyonder was playing with him the whole time. testing him... 
and the reason why beyonder came to challenge reece, was because of dr. doom... 
 
one has to remember that after the secret wars, beyonder's inner consciousness was at a conflict. that how can he allow a mere mortal take his power away. he was going to go to earth with a sole purpose of destroying it 100 times over, but that's when reece all of a suddenly becomes the hero and lost twice if not for the conflicts of beyonder's self sentience. (((that's when beyonder uses some impossible self created machine to store his powers as he transforms himslf into a mortal baby so he can live a curious mortal life. well that's when reece killed the baby and used the machine to transfer beyonder's power back into the extra-dimension where ever he came from. 
 
 
 
  

But I could still see an argument on the level of, is magic a kind of energy he can manipulate. Although I think if that were true, then many nonmagic entities (Galactus, for instance) would have trouble fighting someone as relatively weak as Loki, for instance.


reece can not manipulate magic. he is a top tier reality warper. not a magic warper. let's look at mad jim jaspers for this... 
 
 Mad Jim Jaspers
 Mad Jim Jaspers
 

mad jim is a high tier reality warper.... and despite that he can alter multiple realities, i consider him to be significantly weaker in degree, magnitude and understanding of his power than that of reece owen. also, mad jim jaspers is not immortal. (neither version of him is) 
 

 
 
 
 

 
 
 
let's look back to when molecule man was defeated the 1st time and compare it to mad jim jaspers. 
 
both of them where sent to a limbo realm out of reality where they can not use their powers. in order for mad jim japsers to alter reality, he needs to have a reality around to alter.... 
furthermore... he could not escape the limbo and back to the realm of reality. that's where he died. 
 
on the other hand, molecule man was banned in the same place. a void that has no reality. however, molecule man was able to create a son out of nothing and transferred his consciousness into a wand for his son. his son not being banned in there was freed and so was molecule man's consciousness. 
 
so that's the different in power levels. mad jim japser has more limits, while molecule man can actually teleport molecules from one reality into the next whether it be a void or not. 
 
 
but that doesn't mean he can control magic. 
 

why?

 
because magic is a source code he is incapable of comprehending.  
if eternity can not comprehend it, and if the living tribunal can't comprehend it ---then what makes owen so special enough to be able to comprehend it? 
he can't... 
he needs to conjure up that power and invoke it.  
 
 
 

 why do you say that living tribunal can't comprehend the power?

No Caption Provided
the scan you see above is the living tribunal trying to wrestle nebulos for the power of zom. zom is a magical entity that originated from some unknown area within the extra-dimensional realms. te living tribunal had many times struggled against magic he is unable to comprehend and control that he had to insist extra-dimensional help just to contain the problem.  
 
note: there's a difference between containment and controlling. 
 
for all the decades the living tribunal existed, he needed help to contain magic, he could never destroy it.  the only one entity that was able to fully destroy one magical extra-dimension universe and all its occupancy was when cyttorak gave the power to juggernaut to destroy that universe. ((trion juggernaut)) 
bare in mind again, that chronologically, cyttorak is older than the living tribunal. he was considered at the time to be the "would be conqueror of the omniverse (aka: extra-dimensional planes)"   
 
 
 
and these are why owen reece is inferior to magic.
i apologies for it being extensively long, but in order to fully grasp this saving confusion and further question, it needed to be done. anyway. i hope this helps. 
and thanks for reading.

 
 
 

 
relief music after reading this long essay-like  aggregation 
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#38  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Lance Bastro: thanks for the post--i'll get back to you in a couple days on it after I scrounge up some scans!

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#39  Edited By Lance Bastro
@Owie: no problemoo 

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#40  Edited By monarch2016

@Lance Bastro said:

@Owie said:

@Lance Bastro:

That was an awesome aggregation of your stuff. I've enjoyed reading your posts in a lot of threads on this kind of cosmic thing before and I really appreciate all the work you put into the writing and the visuals, too.

When I made up Round 2 for this thread, I was thinking about your ideas, and also about a post by Lord Oraculous (I think) in another thread, where he has a theory that MM's power is primarily psionic, and a literal manipulation of matter and energy, and thus while he can do anything in our universe, he can't deal with magic stuff in the same way. Which, I think, is probably a vary abbreviated way of summarizing what you posted--let me know if you disagree. But I know a major part of your theories on the way the various universes work together in Marvel is that the other "pocket" universes are very different from the main "multiverse" (different versions of 616 reality timelines, etc.).

I think it's a pretty interesting theory (both your ideas about other universes and the idea that MM can only deal with matter and energy). I'm still open to persuasion on it. But I have two reasons/feelings that counter it, in my mind. First, I think that even if we stipulate that whatever exists in these other magical universes is not the same as matter or energy, and thus would not be manipulatable by MM, when their power comes into our universe, I think it would have to transform into real matter and energy, and so in that case MM could manipulate it. Basically I just think anything in our universe has to exist according to the rules of our universe, even if it comes from outside (in the same way that I would argue that when someone goes to the Dark Dimension or Crimson Cosmos or whereever, their bodies are there composed of the kind of matter/energy from that dimension, not the kind from ours). Now, this is arguable--I know people could say that there is also magical energy native to our dimension, and it is just a completely different thing than the kind from ours. But I would disagree, I think it's just another kind of energy.

Secondly, I think MM and Beyonder's powers are linked pretty directly in both the pre and post retcon stages. They come from the same source. So I think they work in teh same way. When Beyonder was contemplating destroying everything at the end of Secret Wars 2, it was very clear that he was going to destroy EVERYTHING--not just variations on 616 continuity, but also Mephisto's hell very clearly, since he was so worried about it, and also all other non-earth dimensions, including the Crimson Cosmos, etc. This is clear, because what he wanted to do was make it so there was nothing else left but him, nothing to distract him from himself again, just like he originally was in the Beyond Realm. And there is no indication that this was beyond his power. So, my feeling is, if Beyonder could affect the supernatural realms, then MM probably can too.

Also, in terms of what is beyond his comprehension...I think it was made clear that Owen's level of cosmic awareness was far beyond normal human, that he was able to understand things from the point of a cosmic being, the same way as, for instance, the Living Tribunal or Mephisto or a Celestial would. So, unless you're saying that the LT or Mephisto or a Celestial couldn't understand the way things work in these other realms (and I would argue that they could understand them, there is plenty of inter-dimensional communication among these beings), then I don't think the comprehension question is an issue.

But I could still see an argument on the level of, is magic a kind of energy he can manipulate. Although I think if that were true, then many nonmagic entities (Galactus, for instance) would have trouble fighting someone as relatively weak as Loki, for instance.




thanks, owie, but before i get things started off here, i would like to apologize for such a belated reply. if it had not been for my pms, i would have definitely missed out on this. secondly, lord oraculous and i don't exactly see eye to eye on things, but we do share one common trait and that is mysticism. anyway, let's get the fire works started shall we.

i had a feeling that when you created round two you were looking for some kind of reasonable explanation of why marvel had been so vague in the comparison to its mystical deities towards its cosmic counterparts. well, there are hints that marvel planted during the years of its 30 year history when stan lee was still head of the house. you will find somewhere that there is a marvel hierarchy that is literally true to itself, but you are not going to find it here throughout mass opinions of comic vine. however, i will explain briefly here that when marvel started becoming mainstream; i say mainstream because it was running since the late 1930's; marvel was a fan of science. the comic company used to be into printing primary for romance, detective and some world propaganda novels and comics. in the 60's it started to evolve into something more science fiction. this is mainly because of stan lee. stan lee was a big science fan and in the 60's science was become more mainstream and thus.... marvel. just remember that when marvel started pushing into the cosmics, the popular star trek tv show was created and then everyone was into science.

looking back in the past, stan created an army of science based characters spanning 1961 through up until 1963 when he created dr. strange. now, he left all the science base characters earth bound, and the only one not to be earth bound was dr. strange. the purpose of strange's character was to go beyond the cosmos, meaning passed that barriers of our universe. and stan created a whole hierarchy for this character. cyttorak (1964) was one of the very 1st mentioned deities and remained abstract until it was finally physically manifested in the early 1990's. cyttorak was a character made specifically for the hierarchy for dr. strange comics. the character juggernaut (1965) came a year afterwards. this is when eternity, galactus, stranger started popping up and the cosmic hierarchy starting building up.

now remember, all the while earth bound character and cosmic characters are separate doing their own things, dr. strange was the one traveling from earth passed the cosmic space where galactus and passed the boundaries of eternity to get to a place called, "world beyond worlds" ---later-to-be-called---- the extra-dimensions. dr. strange was actually bumping into these guys during his travels and actually having to fight some of them.... and he wins....

why is this?


history tells it: it's the power of the extra-dimensional planes!


the hierarchy is like a tri-force. 3 triangles of types & class and with it, its tiers.
the 3 triangles are:

  1. omniverse [extra-dimensional] (mysticism)
  2. hyperverse [inter dimensional]
  3. universe/multiverse [inter/inner dimensional] (physics)




now the living tribunal was 1st mentioned in the late 60's, but where did he come from? he wasn't created within the universe that is eternity. he came from extra-dimensional realm to maintain balance and judgement of eternity and the universe. that's right; he's an omniversal based character, just like cyttorak and the rest of those dr. strange hierarchies. and where did beyonder come from? same place.



where did molecule man come from? earth


now, before we get started with molecule man, consider these things as highlights.

  • power of physics
  • power of idea
  • power of magic

what is physics?
  1. gravity
  2. electromagnetism
  3. strong bound
  4. weak bound

these 4 things create matter, mass, weight, density, frequency, energy and physical power. these four structures of the universe and what makes physical reality possible is intertwined by two spacial-dimensions called space and time. space gives us direction; time gives us movement.

note: they say that eternity is the embodiment of all living things, but he is more like the "space" for all physical things reside and the "time" for all physical things to move. ex: eternity/infinity and vice versa.



what is the power of idea?
  1. thought
  2. comprehension
  3. perspective
  4. perception



what is the power of magic?
  1. intuition
  2. influence
  3. miracle/curse
  4. reflection/mirror
in reality, we can only express magic in words with the power of idea, but there again, it is not the same thing. magical is actually a defiance for both idea and physics.
ie: "world beyond worlds ---- idea beyond ideas."
ex2: we can say yes, but it can really mean no, or if we switch back to saying no, it can really have the same meaning as no or an different meaning entirely or no meaning at all. there is no logic behind it.
--- magic is 'illogical'. ---

ex3: 1+1= 8

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so off to molecule man......

he (lord oraculus) has a theory that MM's power is primarily psionic, and a literal manipulation of matter and energy, and thus while he can do anything in our universe, he can't deal with magic stuff in the same way. Which, I think, is probably a vary abbreviated way of summarizing what you posted--let me know if you disagree.

well it's not about me having to agree or disagree with him, it is more about me having to define it clearer. any character that has the power to have mind over matter or the power to have mind over some other form of energy like magnetism, lighting, wind, water, or cosmic -ISzzzzz- and i can't stretch that word more than it possibly could, but is (and has too) psionical.

why does it have to be?
thoughts are the means of control. it is the medium that causes the effects what is going on through another medium or surrounding. having said that; it can be translated to literal matter/energy manipulation. remember the physic/magic/idea list i posted above. the idea is the medium. it causes the acts.





I'm still open to persuasion on it. But I have two reasons/feelings that counter it, in my mind. First, I think that even if we stipulate that whatever exists in these other magical universes is not the same as matter or energy, and thus would not be manipulatable by MM, when their power comes into our universe, I think it would have to transform into real matter and energy, and so in that case MM could manipulate it. Basically I just think anything in our universe has to exist according to the rules of our universe, even if it comes from outside (in the same way that I would argue that when someone goes to the Dark Dimension or Crimson Cosmos or whereever, their bodies are there composed of the kind of matter/energy from that dimension, not the kind from ours). Now, this is arguable--I know people could say that there is also magical energy native to our dimension, and it is just a completely different thing than the kind from ours. But I would disagree, I think it's just another kind of energy.


very good reasoning, but that's one of those things that confuse alot of people. which also, marvel had too--- answered before. but people these days forget these answers explained a long time ago. when extra-dimensional magical energy enters the being that is eternity, it becomes an encrypted invisible code that eternity can not detect nor translate. and it streams inside though a extra-dimensional conduit right to the source it is summoned to or beaconed to. so it can exist within our physical universe, and "act" as a physical energy, when it is just really hologram with a forcefield. so to speak....

take the juggernaut for example: magneto tried to lock on his atoms, but he could not. in our reality.... you and i are constructed out of electrons. if i came up to you and shook your hand, we would not be touching hands, but the electrons that spin around our molecules. our bodies are mere forcefields of the 4 fundamental forces that make us. yet.... juggernaut proved that his molecules (ever since becoming the juggernaut) is not the same as ours. he is just a magical hologram that this reality can't read, translate or alter.



there are other such incidents that occurred similar to this such as dr. strange trying to destroy crystal shards from the crimson cosmos and tries to reason that it is not the same molecules as what he knows what molecules are.

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so it's not energy from eternity.
abundance in his being as cosmic (4 fundamental) energy.
this is an abundant energy coming from another place (source/reality/universe)




I know people could say that there is also magical energy native to our dimension, and it is just a completely different thing than the kind from ours.


yes, that's not really true, and you are right for disagreeing with that. magical energy even if it is within the pocketed realms of our dimension (eternity) have an origin. and this relates to all the pantheons that reside in the pockets of eternity. pantheons and demons are magical beings. but they haven't always resided in eternity, they spawned....from the elder gods..... which in turns spawned from the magical power of demiurge. demiurge is said to be creation incarnate, but where did he come from? was he always a part of eternity or did he come from the outside? (extra-dimension) all the inner-dimensional realms that hold hell lords and skyfathers are using demiurge's powers. and demiurge's power translates differently like all other extra-dimensional powers (ie: cyttorak as opposed to raggaddorr as opposed to ikkon etc...) the pocket realms within eternity were created their by the magic of either the hell lords or of a sky father. magical energy can't be native to eternity because if that were true, eternity wouldn't be magician.......

and speaking of magicians
there comes the word... conjure...


what is conjuring power?


to conjure is to summon, to invoke or to pray for extra power. the person asking for this power can make the impossible possible and vice versa. conjuring power is a power of an outside source and it has a lot more to do with a soul acting as a medium as opposed to the mind. so conjuring power is not psionic. unlike personal power and the ability to channel ambient and by controlling it psionically, conjuring power has true endlessness since the omniverse and its extra-dimensions are much vaster than the multiverse as a whole; furthermore, the power becomes more potent depending where the power is coming from. ie: raggaddorr, vishanti, zom etc...

aside from the fact that dr. strange is a conjuring powerhouse. there are others such as dr. doom, dormammu, and even eternity and the living tribunal.

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided


conjuring power vs personal power vs psionic powers



1st of all; what is personal power? how do we define it?
the best character i can really think of right now is goku from the anime/manga dragon ball.
personal power is like ki. the power to generate energy from within yourself with no outside forces helping in. i will differentiate ki (inner power) from chi (outter power) which i will explain as ambient energy around you. personal power is your inner power and how much you can store in yourself using the outside ambient energy without destroying yourself.

you can think of it as computer RAM and bandwidth.
for example: your body is RAM (random access memory) ---- how large is your RAM depends on your personal power. now RAM receives data through a conduit called a bus. 8-bit bus, 16-bit bus, 32-bit buts and so on...---- these buses travel at a speed called hertz. Let's say the RAM is 32 megabytes big. that means it can only store 32MB before spitting it out. The end result is called a bandwidth. the higher the RAM, the bigger the bus and the faster of hertz depend on the end results. if you receive more than 32-MB at a time (due to bottleneck effect) , your system will pretty much slow down and crash and the RAM fries...

That's the analogy here:
the x-man, bishop has a personal power to store in kinetic energy from the outside. he has a limit and the same can be said to the x-factor strong guy and same with the hellfire club sabastian shaw. if you take in too much; you fry....... in addition; dr. strange had personal power too, let that be known.... it's just that he doesn't use it that much. ie: when dr. strange started training to be a magician, the ancient one was training strange to control, store and utilize ambient engery (ki/chi)

note: the ancient one is of asian origin that mastered martial arts the same as magic.



psionic power again, is the power to mentally envision and control these energies into your own bidding.


power you can absorb
power you can absorb

power you can generate
power you can generate

all having physical effect in your space around you (universe)
all having physical effect in your space around you (universe)

the power you ask for through other sources beyond your universal reach
the power you ask for through other sources beyond your universal reach






Secondly, I think MM and Beyonder's powers are linked pretty directly in both the pre and post retcon stages. They come from the same source. So I think they work in teh same way. When Beyonder was contemplating destroying everything at the end of Secret Wars 2, it was very clear that he was going to destroy EVERYTHING--not just variations on 616 continuity, but also Mephisto's hell very clearly, since he was so worried about it, and also all other non-earth dimensions, including the Crimson Cosmos, etc. This is clear, because what he wanted to do was make it so there was nothing else left but him, nothing to distract him from himself again, just like he originally was in the Beyond Realm. And there is no indication that this was beyond his power. So, my feeling is, if Beyonder could affect the supernatural realms, then MM probably can too.


ok now we can finally get into molecule..... finally!

Molecule Man
Molecule Man


reece (1963) originated from earth. he got his powers by a scientific accident cited within the 1st three paragraphs above. the accident altered his body and gave his mind a direct link into molecules of everything physical thing inside a physical universe. the late reece, however, had a limitation due to his confident block. he could only alter inanimate object. he became one of the main villains of the earily 60's, until he died.... (twice in classic times: once by the watcher and the other time by dr. doom) but reece figured out a way to transfer parts of his consciousness through molecules. this gave him the power to become semi-immortal. now, reece has the power to posses people and object and being virtually immortal through the constructs of a molecule.







however, he wasn't always so powerful.... it took reece some time to break down the self-confidence wall and really learn how to utilize his powers to the max. he once disassembled irons armor with ease, but didn't know how put it back together in a working state. that's because reece didn't know mechanics, or electronics or what makes matter into energy and energy into matter, gas or liquid.... he soon build up his comprehension of things and became even more powerful and dangerous.

keep in mind that when reece 1st discovered his powers, the beyonder was there. we just don't know if his powers were granted to him or that by some how, the accident that reece did transfered some of beyonder's power to himelf.... later we discover in the 80's that his powers are even beyond molecules. He practically has the power of the 4 fundamentals of reality at a very high degree and magnitude. and he controls it though his power of idea....

but only the ideas of that which he can comprehend....


now what we have to remember here is that when reece was fighting against beyonder.... he lost.... twice....
beyonder was infinitely more powerful than reece, beyonder was playing with him the whole time. testing him...
and the reason why beyonder came to challenge reece, was because of dr. doom...

one has to remember that after the secret wars, beyonder's inner consciousness was at a conflict. that how can he allow a mere mortal take his power away. he was going to go to earth with a sole purpose of destroying it 100 times over, but that's when reece all of a suddenly becomes the hero and lost twice if not for the conflicts of beyonder's self sentience. (((that's when beyonder uses some impossible self created machine to store his powers as he transforms himslf into a mortal baby so he can live a curious mortal life. well that's when reece killed the baby and used the machine to transfer beyonder's power back into the extra-dimension where ever he came from.





But I could still see an argument on the level of, is magic a kind of energy he can manipulate. Although I think if that were true, then many nonmagic entities (Galactus, for instance) would have trouble fighting someone as relatively weak as Loki, for instance.


reece can not manipulate magic. he is a top tier reality warper. not a magic warper. let's look at mad jim jaspers for this...

Mad Jim Jaspers
Mad Jim Jaspers


mad jim is a high tier reality warper.... and despite that he can alter multiple realities, i consider him to be significantly weaker in degree, magnitude and understanding of his power than that of reece owen. also, mad jim jaspers is not immortal. (neither version of him is)










let's look back to when molecule man was defeated the 1st time and compare it to mad jim jaspers.

both of them where sent to a limbo realm out of reality where they can not use their powers. in order for mad jim japsers to alter reality, he needs to have a reality around to alter....
furthermore... he could not escape the limbo and back to the realm of reality. that's where he died.

on the other hand, molecule man was banned in the same place. a void that has no reality. however, molecule man was able to create a son out of nothing and transferred his consciousness into a wand for his son. his son not being banned in there was freed and so was molecule man's consciousness.

so that's the different in power levels. mad jim japser has more limits, while molecule man can actually teleport molecules from one reality into the next whether it be a void or not.


but that doesn't mean he can control magic.

why?


because magic is a source code he is incapable of comprehending.
if eternity can not comprehend it, and if the living tribunal can't comprehend it ---then what makes owen so special enough to be able to comprehend it?
he can't...
he needs to conjure up that power and invoke it.




why do you say that living tribunal can't comprehend the power?

No Caption Provided
the scan you see above is the living tribunal trying to wrestle nebulos for the power of zom. zom is a magical entity that originated from some unknown area within the extra-dimensional realms. te living tribunal had many times struggled against magic he is unable to comprehend and control that he had to insist extra-dimensional help just to contain the problem.

note: there's a difference between containment and controlling.

for all the decades the living tribunal existed, he needed help to contain magic, he could never destroy it. the only one entity that was able to fully destroy one magical extra-dimension universe and all its occupancy was when cyttorak gave the power to juggernaut to destroy that universe. ((trion juggernaut))
bare in mind again, that chronologically, cyttorak is older than the living tribunal. he was considered at the time to be the "would be conqueror of the omniverse (aka: extra-dimensional planes)"



and these are why owen reece is inferior to magic.
i apologies for it being extensively long, but in order to fully grasp this saving confusion and further question, it needed to be done. anyway. i hope this helps.
and thanks for reading.


relief music after reading this long essay-like aggregation

so where do you rank this shit know as cyttorak?

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Prince CortSether

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@Lance Bastro:
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monarch2016

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#42  Edited By monarch2016

@Prince CortSether said:

@Lance Bastro:

man is this lance guy saying that nothing can affect this cyttorak?a universal blast,a multiversal blast?

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lol

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this thread was funny and make me Lol

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galactus1967

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@lance_bastro: Lance while i`m sure you put a lot of thought into your charts and graphs.They can be interpreted,anyway you want.Charles Hinton at the turn of the century in England introduced 4 dimensional space to high society.(This is before einstein used time as the 4th dimension).What Hinton invented was called a tesseract,which is an unraveled hypercube(a 4 dimensional object).It was said that if you stared at it long enough you could glimpse higher dimensional objects.The shadow of a hypercube,is a tesseract.That can never be seen with are 3 dimensional brains.What I am trying to say here is if you can`t see it,you can`t see it.It`s all just b.s that you want to believe.But can never prove is a fact.

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captain_batman_FTW

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Is molecule man that powerful? I thought him going toe-to-toe with pre-retcon beyonder was PIS, but holy Christ, he is so powerful.

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galactus1967

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captain-batman,did you miss my last post,all those graphs and charts are fancy b.s.,do you have selective amnesia.All I know is these beings against owen would find a way to win,not because of their power .But their intelligence is eailey greater than his,from Galactus (probably smartest of all)to L.T to the celestials,They would come up with a plan to blow owen`s ass out of the water.

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@jedixman said:

Pretty sure Molecule Man would win.