Marvel Tourny: Dane Vs. Lance Uppercut

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Lance Uppercut

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#1 Edited By Lance Uppercut

Omega Red
Gambit – Staff and 3 decks of cards (pre-death abilities)
Nick Fury – m16 w/ silencer, 2 Colt .45s, 2 knives, 1 grenade

Fanboy - 1 Replica of Cap’s shield w/ all of it’s properties (for use by Nick)
Why Can’t We Be Friends? – Makes your team respect one another and follow each others commands and orders. In short, they’ll function as a unit and any bad blood / tempers won’t exist. They will cooperate with one another.
Bat-prep
We are one - Telepathic Link -
Silent, but deadly -Silences all the guns on your team
Living in LA’s lovely smog

If Dane would like to post his roster/Add-Ons, I'll be glad to start things off with my strategy afterwords.

14 years ago

DedmanWalkin

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#2 Edited By DedmanWalkin

I think you wasted a point with the Silent But Deadly addon as Nick's M16 is silenced it only silenced his .45s. However, let's see how you use it.

14 years ago

dane

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#3 Edited By dane

@Lance Uppercut:
I sent you my team in PM.

I probably won't be able to debate much today since it's Valentine's Day here. I will get up some initial arguments asap though.

Members:
Captain America (5) w/ Shield.
Daredevil (5) w/ Muramasa, Grenade Launcher, Billy Clubs.
Clint Barton (5) w/ Bow, Arrows and 10 Exploding Arrows.

Addons:
5x Hand Ninjas (2)
Telepathic Link (1)
Gas/Pheromone Immunity (1)
Bloodlust (3)
Muramasa + Grenade Launcher (3)

14 years ago

The Mjolnir Wielder

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#4 Edited By The Mjolnir Wielder

Lance's team should win, but it won't be too easy.

14 years ago

Lance Uppercut

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#5 Edited By Lance Uppercut

IIRC, my team starts at the Red Base. With forty five minutes of prep, I think Nick will realize that's the biggest obstacle for his team is going to be stealth, despite Gambits addition. If he knows that the team is traveling with the Hand Ninjas, I think he'll send in Red as a shock force of sorts to scope out the area. Red's most likely angle of approach is the west side of the island through the tree cover to maximize his stealth. Meanwhile Nick and Gambit will travel as a team down the center of the island, using the telepathic link with Red to keep a good eye on the situation.

While initially I thought that being immune to Reds death spores were going to be a problem for my team, I realized that ultimately, the biggest challenge is whomever you give the Muramasa blade to. Should Red engage your team at any time, Nick would send him directly for whomever you're giving the blade to. He'd send in Gambit to assist hopefully not surprising, but at least distracting your team while he stays a good distance away and lays down suppressing fire in to the Hand Ninjas with the M16, while hiding from projectile behind the replica shield.

14 years ago

dane

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#6 Edited By dane

Daredevil has a M-Blade and the Grenade Launcher.

1) As soon as the round starts, Daredevil will have identified all three of your guys by scent, discerned their location and directional heading and informed my team by TP link. Your team has no way of tracking my team. It's very unlikely that you would get to pick and choose when the engagement begins.My whole team should know where your whole team is at any given time during the round.

2) My team is bloodlusted. Yours isn't. That means Hawkeye will be shooting for the head with an aim every bit as good as Bullseye. Nick Fury would never use lethal force against Captain America, Hawkeye and Daredevil, they're heroes. It's very unlikely that Gambit would use lethal force either.

3) Suppressing fire from an M16 against Hand Ninjas will prove entirely ineffectual. Hand Ninjas have been shown in the latest issues of Daredevil to deflect bullets with ease, I'll post a scan. Obviously Captain America and Hawkeye can take cover or use Cap's shield.

4) Omega Red's fighting style includes a high degree of arrogance. Until he met Wolverine with the M-Blade his durability was enough to withstand virtually all blows. He died in one hit when he met Wolverine with the M-Blade. Daredevil is easily fast enough to dodge his tentacles and skilled enough to put it through his heart or decapitate him. He's also bloodlusted and wants to kill him as fast as possible. In short, OR takes blows instead of dodging them and that sword will go straight through him. DD wins.

5) Hawkeye can ricochet his arrows off floor/walls/buildings and hit Gambit/Nick in the head, what do they have to stop him? Neither Gambit nor Nick can defeat Steve Rogers at range or at hand to hand. Steve and Clint have fantastic teamwork. Cap stands in front protecting with his shield while Clint comes out of cover to fire arrows/explosive arrows.

6) If Omega Red comes for DD in a one on one he will get taken down very quickly. DD is immune to his powers, can dodge his tentacles and has a sword that can one shot kill him or cut through his carbonadium tentacles. After he's done there he has his senses to track the other two and a grenade launcher to pump high grade explosives at their heads from a rooftop.

7) Nick Fury and Gambit can't possibly lay down suppression against Cap and Hawkeye while they have 5 Hand Ninja engaging them hand to hand. More than that, they're taking orders telepathically from Steve Rogers, a tactical genius. You could argue that either could take down a few ninja but while they're busy, Hawkeye is taking shots at Gambit's head and Cap rushes Nick Fury. Even with a shield there is no way Nick Fury takes down Steve Rogers. Steve is a much, much better fighter and is much better with that shield. Gambit and Hawkeye both have explosives but Clint is a much, much better marksman and by that time Daredevil will have returned and begun lopping grenades at Gambit. When you jump you create a linear trajectory - because you can't move and change direction in mid air. That means if Gambit jumps or rolls to avoid one projectile he will commit himself to traveling in a certain direction and cannot avoid the second projectile.

Here's a scan of last time Omega Red went up against the M-Blade. (fatal)

You can't shoot a Hand Ninja:

14 years ago

Retnex

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#7 Edited By Retnex

@Dane:
Bat prep gives the names and basic powers of the opponents team

14 years ago

dane

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#8 Edited By dane

My bad, it still won't give him the ability to track my characters. DD can tell who they are and where they are at any time during the round and convey it to the other members by TP Link.

14 years ago

Lance Uppercut

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#9 Edited By Lance Uppercut

@Dane:

1. Actually, that's not true. Red has demonstrated several tracking feats (actually in the same issues from the M-Blade incident, but I'll get to that later). Originally in issue 38 of Wolverine: Origins, Omega Red was left with steel bars in his chest pinning him to the ground. Wild Child intercepted Wolverine and took him to an abandoned Factory. Not only was Red able to track them, he did so while seemingly evading BOTH of their superhuman senses.

Later in the same issue, Wolverine is at a factory with the C-Synth, and once again, Red easily tracks him down. To say that Red couldn't track them down is like saying Wolverine couldn't track them down.

2. The only person on my team that has to use lethal force is Omega Red. Now before we go getting any crazy ideas, Clint is the only one that has a range advantage on Red. Meanwhile, Red actually has a range advantage on both Cap AND Daredevil AND the hand ninjas. His tentacles have a pretty good reach, from what I'm estimating, at least ten to fifteen feet. If you'd like confirmation of this, I'll be glad to post some scans in the next round. Keep in mind that this is a conservative estimate. And while your team may be immune to Reds Death Factor, they are in fact NOT immune to his life force absorption.

3. I didn't say it had to be effective, I just need it to be distracting.

4. Actually, Daredevil has had trouble avoiding Reds Tentacles in a past encounter.

Now this scan above is interesting. Note that despite Red not using his death factor, the ability to Absorb Matt's life force.

Now as he was about to use his death spores, Murdock is saved by the guy employing Red.

Black Widow interfered in the fight later, so it never really finished, but even with Reds arrogance, he essentially dominated Matt in that fight. Matt even hit him full force with the clubs, and it did nothing.

5. Actually, I also thought about the richochet for Nick, so I started researching his regular equipment brought along on missions and such (and if this doesn't apply, ignore it entirely). Apparently, Nick Fury has a personal force field, which is actually quite effective at blocking bullets.

Now this scan states that the suit is bullet proof, but during Dark Reign: The List, it appears as though Norman Osborn has this same effect as Ronin is unloading with a twelve guage. Now Norman confirms that he has all of Nick Furys toys, including (lo and behold) and personal force field. Now I assume that normal equip is applicable, and it seems to be something he uses on several occasions. Otherwise, he still has Caps replica shield, and Gambit is easily athletic enough to dodge projectiles.

5. If you'll refer to the scans above, DD is clearly NOT immune to Reds life force absorption abilities. Quite the opposite in fact. And Red demonstrated he could easily tag DD if he wanted to. In this match, he's not going to get called off by Fury, who will at least respect Reds need to kill Matt thanks to the Why Can't We Be Friends upgrade.And no, the Muramasa blade has never demonstrated the ability to cut through Carbonadium.

Now you seem to be banking on the M-Blade (which I've admitted is a viable threat). But assuming Red has all his experiences, let's take a look at the context of how Red was killed.

As my scans demonstrate, Omega Red allowed Wolverine to stab him. At the time, he had no idea what the sword could do or what it was, and he thought it was just a sword. Assuming he has all of his past experiences, he now knows what Murdock is holding, and isn't going to just stand around and let himself die. He will be actively trying to hit Murdock, which I believe he has the capability to do.

7. Actually, Nick and Gambit are capable enough fighters to take out the Hand Ninjas quite well. Both of them have incredible combat experience. In fact, Nick has engaged Cap on several occasions and has held his own. He's a tactical genius in his own right, and while Nick is hiding behind the shield firing bullets, Gambit is an incredible hand to hand fighter. He's engaged Wolverine several times and beaten him once. Actually twice I think, but that was based on his use of the situation. His ability to use precision accuracy and throwing combined with the range and the fact that he has deck upon deck of explosive cards which he can easily utilize in combat scenarios. Unless Cap comes to fight them himself (which he really can't do, as I assume you need him protecting Hawkeye), Gambit and Nick will be fine against the Hand Ninjas while Red subdues/kills Murdock, something he's easily capable of.

14 years ago

dane

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#10 Edited By dane

@Lance Uppercut:

Carbonadium is a cheap soviet knock-off of adamantium and the M-Blade is a magical sword that has been shown to cut straight through anything, inlcuding adamantium with ease. It will cut through it. It went through Red's armor which Wolverine's claws were easily resistant to.

I'll answer your points in the same order for ease:

1) Red has a lot of experience with Wolverine though. Is there similar feats with him tracking down people he is less familiar with?

2) Not true, DD also has a grenade launcher and his billy clubs swing much further than Red's tentacles. DD might soften or disorientate him with a grenade or two to the face but I doubt he'd bother with his billy clubs against an armored opponent when he has the M-Blade. The problem is if he swings his tentacles at Daredevil, he can get them cut off or dodge them. Without a massive sensory disruption there should be little difficulty in closing into melee range for DD, where he'll have the major advantage.

3) Due to DD's senses, my whole team would know you were about to enter an area before you entered it. If you ran straight at them Clint could shoot arrows into your heads just as you turn the corner. Attempting to lay down suppressing fire could be a fatal strategy since you're walking into an ambush without knowing it.

4) In that scan there is a military helicopter (a very, very loud thing) just above DD's head. Effectively ruining his sensory data input and disorientating him. That's why Red could hit him easily. In this encounter theres no helicopter, DD is bloodlusted and he has a sword that will cut through anything, not just regular billy clubs.

5) Nick Fury only has his assigned gear, he doesn't have a personal force field or the invisibility cloak he often has.

6) DD is bloodlusted and has much better speed and dodge feats than Red and he only has to tag him once to kill. I know Wolverine gave him a free shot but my point was that the blade goes through him very easily (where adamantium never did).

7) You didn't address my strategy. The Hand Ninjas are only a distraction. If Gambit is fighting a hand ninja hand to hand then he is wide open to Clint putting an arrow through his brain. Nick Fury is a good fighter but he won't take down a bloodlusted Steve Rogers. Not in his dizziest daydreams and especially not while his hands are full, one with a weapon he hasn't been trained to use.

14 years ago

Lunacyde

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#11 Edited By Lunacyde Moderator

@Lance Uppercut:
Do you only have Omega Red?

14 years ago

Lance Uppercut

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#12 Edited By Lance Uppercut

@Dane:

When has the M-Blade ever cut through Adamantium or Carbonadium? In fact, it took adamantium sheathes to house them in Dakens body. I've seen nothing to suggest that it could cut carbonadium or adamantium.

1. He doesn't really have a lot of tracking feats. Most of the time he's tracking down members of weapon X, etc. but I don't see how that's going to keep him from tracking guys like Ronin and Cap.

2. Grenade launchers aren't going to do jack to Red. He's taken RPG's to the chest before and been unscathed, and the billy clubs did absolutely nothing to Red when thrown. Once again, I've seen nothing to suggest that it can cut through carbonadium OR adamantium.

3. I could say the same about Red's senses, and you have to remember, Fury's been working with these guys for years as his job. He knows Cap especially well, having served with him in WW2, and numerous other encounters. If anyone has the tactical knowledge to lead a team captain by Steve, it's Nick.

4. The scans say nothing about his senses being dulled. Nor has DD ever shown feats suggesting he can compete with Red, whose usually shown fighting multiple teams of X-Men, often having people with excellent acrobatic skill like Beast, Gambit, Wolverine, etc. and he's been able to tag and grapple with all of them. These guys actively view him as a threat, so I doubt they're not trying their damndest to put Red down. And these are teams. Daredevil may be Bloodlusted, but Red has shown the reflexes and speed to tag opponents of his level.

5. Nick still has Caps shield to hide behind, and he's in a position to use it effectively.

6. Once again, Red has dealt with multiple opponents with the acrobatic skill on par or above that of Daredevil. Beast, Gambit, all incredible acrobats, and I'd wager that Beast is actually faster then Matt. If those tentacles connect, and Red get's a good hold, the fight is over for him.

7. If Captain America leaves Clint to fight Nick, then Nick has ample time to put a bullet in Clint. You're right, he won't go for a kill shot, but it doesn't mean he can't wound Clint. Not to mention that Nick and Gambit aren't pushovers. The ninjas may be a distraction, and they may be able to block bullets, but if they try to block Gambits cards, they're going to find that such an attack will cause hazardous injury. Clint can shoot at Gambit all he wants, but Gambit is perfectly capable of dodging and multitasking. And once Red gets done incapacitating Daredevil or worse, he can join the fight against Cap, or help out with the Hand Ninjas.

14 years ago

dane

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#13 Edited By dane

@Lance Uppercut:

The reason the sword can cut through anything is because it cuts through things on a molecular level. Which was stated after they analysed the SHIVA robot that Wolverine cut up with it. If this is true, the substance being cut wouldn't matter.

As for specific examples, It cut straight through the SHIVA robot which was made of adamantium. It's also cut straight through Sabretooth's arm. I was under the impression he had adamantium in his bones. Also I was under the impression Omega Red has carbonadium throughout his body, hence his great durability.

1) It also doesn't prove he can track them at all. Nor have you mentioned by what means he is tracking them. For all we know there might be a chip in Weapon X members' heads.

2) It would disorientate but not hurt him. It would also create quite a deal of smoke. Omega Red can't see through smoke, DD can though.

3) Cap knows Fury just as well as Fury knows Cap, that isn't an advantage for either side.

4) Either way, that fight took place under very different conditions. Omega Red blindsided him completely. DD knows exactly where and who Omega Red is this time and knows exactly what he's capable of. He also has the means and the will to kill him that he never had in that fight.

5) Incorrect. If he has 3 Ninjas surrounding him (2 fighting Gambit) and Captain America in front. A shield can only face one way and can only block high or low. If he's defending against Cap he gets impaled from behind by a ninja. If he's defending to the side or behind he gets Cap's shield to the back of his neck and gets decapitated. And before you say it, he isn't a trickshot with the m16. He can't shoot the Ninjas since they can block it from range and up close they chop him to confetti.

6) Not necessarily true. Many strong willed people have fought for a time while still in Red's tentacles and if he is close enough a single swipe of his katana will end Omega Red. DD would never need to be in that situation though.

7) I already stated that Clint was behind cover, though he has enough dodge feats to avoid bullets. If Nick shoots at Clint with 3 hand ninjas and bloodlusted Cap on him he may wound Clint but he will die without question. Gambit is a fantastic dodger, but he cannot fighting h2h while dodging arrows, he doesn't have to sensory capabilities to see incoming projectiles while facing the other way and he cannot change direction in mid air, meaning he can only dodge one thing at once. Saying Red wins his 1on1 is presuming a lot too.

14 years ago

Lance Uppercut

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#14 Edited By Lance Uppercut

@Dane:

Omega Red does not have Carbonadium throughout his entire body. His durability comes solely from the experiments done on him by the Russians.

I recall the muramasa blade also being brittle. The guy that but them in Daken said that they were easy to break, and that he should only use them when he had direct access to kill shots. Also, depending on the type of Adamantium, it would be far easier to cut. I was under the impression that he only cut off Creeds head. You have to remember that wolverine was also wary about fighting Red even when he had the blade. Plus the fact that Red as only hit because he let Wolverine.

1. That Omega Red can track, with no discernible technology, etc.? I find that a little hard to believe. It's more likely that he does indeed have enhanced senses. After all, he was put through the Russian version of the super soldier program, and apparently Russias answer to the SSS is to make their opponents better. And if their were a chip in Wolverines head, wouldn't someone have noticed by now?

2. No, a grenade wouldn't really disorient him either. You also assume Red couldn't knock it out of the air, or dodge it. I doubt the latter, but if he can take a bazooka round to the chest with no harm done, a grenade certainly isn't going to disorient him. You also have to remember that Red toys with Wolverine. He isn't going to play around with Daredevil, and in the encounter they had, he was in fact going to kill Daredevil. A little smoke for a guy who can track Wolverine and Wild Child over miles, avoid both of their enhanced senses, and shrug off bazooka rounds isn't going to be much of an obstacle.

3. Except for the fact that my team knows what your team can do. I picked Fury because he has an intimate knowledge of most of the heroes on the roster, and some of the villains. That means so does Gambit, and Red. Even if Hawkeye is in cover, they know that there are three members on your squad, and if one of them isn't fighting directly, they're going to be expecting sneak attacks.

4. Omega Red didn't blind side him. Matt attacked him directly and paid for it. In fact, he first threw his Billy Clubs full force. I believe the writer made it very clear that Matt was no holding back.

5. What's to stop Nick from lobbing a grenade at the hand ninjas and use that as a distraction to gun them down?

And two ninjas for Gambit? He's better then that, and more agile. If Gambit can take out his ninjas and take out one of the ninjas attacking Fury, it leaves them open to double team Cap. No, they won't beat Cap, but they'll hold them off long enough for Red to handle business with Murdock and let him take care of Cap.

6. Yeah, and most of those strong willed people had healing factors or super durability. He's drained both Gambit and Rogue in seconds, drained Colossus to the point where he was reverting back to a human form, and Daredevil was already feeling the effects the second Red got him in a grip. Not to mention, you assume he's just going to hold on to him. There's nothing stopping Red from putting a tentacle through Matts chest once he grabs him. You also assume that Red is going to allow him free access shots to a katana he knows can kill him. Reds restrained opponents before in his tentacles, and Matt isn't going to be the last.

7. How is it hard to presume that Red can win against a character slower, less durable, and with no healing factor in a short amount of time? Daredevil isn't the most difficult opponent Red has fought. Not even close. And yeah, Gambit can in fact multiple attacks coming from different angles.

You say he can't dodge in mid air, but the guns tracking him in the next scan seem to indicate otherwise

Confirming that the guns are indeed changing position as he's moving:

So yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that he at least has the ability to dodge gunfire in mid air. I also don't think the hand ninjasare going to be much of a bother ultimately.

14 years ago

Clutch

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#15 Edited By Clutch

Nice Lance,Nice.

14 years ago

dane

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#16 Edited By dane

@Lance Uppercut:

1) The fragment in Daken's claws is brittle because it's a fragment, DD has the whole sword, intact. The robot he cut in two was sent by Weapon X, since they're the ones who gave Wolverine his adamantium and sent a robot to kill him, it makes sense that it's the same adamantium. Also, it is an adapative robot and cannot be killed the same way twice. Meaning it adapted to Wolverine's adamantium and he had to use the sword to cut it this time. So basically the kind of adamantium the sword can cut is the same on Wolverine's bones/claws. Which is said to be stronger than carbonadium.

2) Omega Red has never been stated to have enhanced senses. Just because he can track Wolverine doesn't mean he can track everyone. I'm not saying there is a chip inside Wolverine's head but I'm saying unless you can provide him with a method of tracking that applies to all, it's possible he can only track Weapon X subjects.

3) Again you're relying on abilities you haven't proven. We all know DD can fight the same with smoke around that he can without out. I've never seen Omega Red with blind-fighting feats. The grenades aren't intended to kill, they're just a distraction so DD can move in for the kill.

4) It shows very, very clearly in the scan that DD has is back to him and is already on the ground. He get's blindsided which shouldn't happen considering his impeccable ability to track people. The only reason being that he can't single out his heartbeat with so many other civilians around. In our fight there are no other civilians, it's just Red vs DD and he doesn't have the element of surprise and the advantage it gives him in your scan.

5) I call BS. You have your Nick Fury fighting Captain America and 2 Hand Ninjas who he can't possibly kill and Gambit outmaneuvering and hand to hand fighting 3 more Ninjas and at the same time both of them are not only expecting sneak attacks, they're countering them, dodging them, shooting back and still beating down people in hand to hand at the same time. Rubbish.

Edit: Since you mentioned it, his Ronin costume is stark black and the fight takes place at the beginning of night. Exactly how do Gambit and Nick Fury react to this suprise attack that they cannot see coming? Clint having full knowledge of their every movement through DD and having a perfect ambush position since your team walked straight into my team who knew they were coming.

6) You are avoiding my major points to make your own. The blade cuts through all metals. Adamantium is stronger than Carbonadium and the blade is magical, it cuts things at a molecular level and there is nothing about Carbonadium that makes it superior to the things the blade has cut through. Daredevil was already being weakened by death spores in your scan, he's immune to them here, you're ignoring a lot of factors that make this battle different to try to apply your scan to it. The CV page for Carbonadium even states that it is less durable.

7) Omega Red is really strong and fast. The problem is even if he gets a coil to Matt, it can be cut off. His durability means nothing against the Muramasa blade and DD's sensory advantage gives him something the X-Men that Red usually fights don't have. If it was 1on1 regular DD with no sword and no immunity to his death spores I'd agree with you. The problem is he's bloodlust, has a sword that can cut through anything and is immune to those death spores. Red has to tag and hold Matt with his coils that can be cut off. Matt only has to tag him once to kill him and Omega Red doesn't dodge anywhere near as fast as DD attacks. Also, impale him with his tentacles? please. DD dodges bullets with absurd ease and Omega Red can't shoot his tentacles out at him faster than a bullet by any means.

In yours scans) Gambit is dodging gunfire in this instance, in our battle he's dodging exploding grenades and exploding arrows. Significant difference. He might get around the shuriken the ninjas throw at him but each of those lasers is an inch from his body. More than close enough for him to lose a limb when the arrows explode around him and Clint Barton could fire them in volleys of 3 with ease. His dodging feats will should extend far enough to let him choose if he wants to keep a leg or an arm. Also, he's dodging drones. There's a big difference between drones and Clint Barton, one of the finest marksman in the world. He's easily as good as Bullseye and in this case has a quiver full of explosive arrows, deadly even to a cajun mutant.

Let me get it straight for Nick and Gambit vs Cap and Clint. Cap and Clint are told by DD that Nick and Gambit (by name) are coming toward them. Cap and Clint and 5 hand ninjas set up an ambush and wait. Nick and Gambit walk straight in as it's sprung. Nick is attacked violently by Captain America and 2 Hand Ninja. Gambit is jumped by 3 Hand Ninja and when he begins to fight them off, one throws a shuriken which he dodges. Clint Barton, unseen from the shadows fires a volley of 3 explosive arrows at him, one aimed for his head, one for his chest and the other toward his legs while he is in mid air and unable to change direction.

In what daydream does Nick Fury defeat Captain America hand to hand (the finest hand to hand combatant in the world) while shooting at Clint Barton (who he can't see) and the Hand Ninja (who can't be shot) and defending with Captain America's shield (which he's never been trained to use) ?

How exactly does Gambit avoid projectiles he can't see and doesn't know are coming while in mid-air and unable to change direction? Even if he does, how does their exploding within inches of him not result in loss of limb or life?

Furthermore, how does Omega Red kill an an expert opponent who can cut off his only offensive weapons with a single slash and cleave him in two with another?

I respect you a lot Lance, but I don't think you win here.

14 years ago

dane

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#17 Edited By dane

Daredevil

As for Omega Red being able to easily tag him, here's some feats from times when DD wasn't choking on death spores:

Blocks multiple projectiles from Bullseye at the same time with ease.

Reflexes that trump Elektra's, who is a low level telepath and master assassin.

Dodge's the attacks of Namor, a being much faster and stronger than Omega Red.
Note: with and without smoke screens (already made a case for him using them on Omega Red).

Intercepts bullets in mid air and gives moral lectures at the same time. Multitasking feats galore. That'll teach you, young 'Eightball'.

Captain America

In regards to Cap vs Nick Fury:

Cap's fast enough to tag Spiderman with ease. A guy who would put Gambit's superhuman agility and speed to shame.

Takes an onslaught of punches from Iron Man, a guy hundreds of times stronger than Nick Fury and is still standing. Iron Man finally uses sonics to take him down.

Takes down Rhino with one hit. Easily one of the most durable metahumans any street leveler has ever taken down without PIS.

Makes the deadly assassin X23 look like a chump.

I wouldn't much recommend using that M16 either.

14 years ago

Lance Uppercut

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#18 Edited By Lance Uppercut

@Dane:

1. So it can cut through any metal.... yet it's notoriously easy to break? I mean, it's on Dakens claws, and now it's not even half a sword. It's either bad writing, or it's not as strong as you're making it out to be. Either way, he still has to hit a significant portion (really, really close to the arm, because it's still got length), while avoiding a second one that's just as fast. His tentacles aren't projectile, and that baton isn't going to hold up against it.

2. It makes no sense for him to only be able to track Weapon X operatives. That's like saying I can only see you as long as you're white. There's no good reason why he shouldn't be able to track ANY member of your team. In fact, given that he's actually been able to keep Wolverine from sensing him in any way entirely, I'd wager a guess that Red may actually be hard for Murdock to track. I mean, both Wolverine and Wild Child were in that building, and Wild Childs abilities had been amped by Romulus in that arc, and they didn't even know Red was coming. Murdock only heard him drop from the Copter, and the fact that he dropped through four feet of steel made him wary to begin with.

As for Omega Red being able to easily tag him, here's some feats from times when DD wasn't choking on death spores:

He wasn't choking on spores to begin with. Red only activated them for like, a second before his employer pretty much demanded he go on with the mission. If Daredevil could have avoided the shot in midair, he would have.

3. If Red can track him, Red can hit him. There's no reason why Red shouldn't be able to find him, given that he can track down better stealth artists then Murdock. You're lowballing Red b ig time

4. Here are some smaller scans, to see the full context.

Murdock most certainly does NOT have his back turn when Red hits him. Then Murdock goes in for the hand to hand brawl, and gets smacked away. The only advantage Red has is that he's faster, more durable, and stronger. Murdock got the full power baton shot. No blindsiding, no false advantage, it was a quick, clean showing of Reds abilities. Not sure where you got the idea that Red blindsided him, but that's not the case at all

5. Whoa whoa whoa, back up man. That's not what you said at all. in fact, let's look at it.

I call BS. You have your Nick Fury fighting Captain America and 2 Hand Ninjas who he can't possibly kill and Gambit outmaneuvering and hand to hand fighting 3 more Ninjas and at the same time both of them are not only expecting sneak attacks, they're countering them, dodging them, shooting back and still beating down people in hand to hand at the same time. Rubbish.

Incorrect. If he has 3 Ninjas surrounding him (2 fighting Gambit) and Captain America in front. A shield can only face one way and can only block high or low. If he's defending against Cap he gets impaled from behind by a ninja. If he's defending to the side or behind he gets Cap's shield to the back of his neck and gets decapitated. And before you say it, he isn't a trickshot with the m16. He can't shoot the Ninjas since they can block it from range and up close they chop him to confetti.

you originally said there are only two hand ninjas fighting Gambits, not three. You said the majority of ninjas were going for Fury along with Cap. And no, he's not going to get impaled. There's nothing stopping him from using one of those hand ninjas as a human shield against his other opponents. He's done it with other assassins before. And once again, your forgetting the fact that Fury has a grenade he can easily toss at the hand ninjas so that while they're distracted, he can put bullets in them. Fury is a pretty decent marksman. I'll admit that he'll take the initial blow from Cap, but he's fought multiple enemies before. Not on Caps level, but the hand ninjas aren't exactly being paraded as the new crack fighting force.

And once again, Gambit can and has easily dodged multiple attacks. His very power (being able to kinetically charge objects and cause them to explode) will provide enough light for him to fight by, and in comparison to the people Gambit regularly fights, the ninjas (I still don't know if it's two or three) aren't going to be a big problem.

7. You're assuming that Red won't be able to get coils around his arms in order to make him drop the sword. He's done it to Wolverine, Wild Child, etc. etc. numerous times, and if Murdock starts lopping bits off, if he catches him, he's not going to leave him in a position to cut off more Carbonadium (if he can). You make it sound as though Matt is faster then guys like Wolverine Beast, Gambit, Rogue, etc, who can all dodge bullets, but were all caught in Reds tentacles. Put simply, he's not, and once again, it's lowballing Red. He's hit faster, he'll continue to hit faster, and Murdock has already proven that in close quarters combat with Red, he really doesn't stand much of a chance. He wasn't holding back in the encounter I posted, and a little bit of bloodlust isn't going to save him.

Wait a tic, let me get this through my head. You're actually trying to tell me, that Gambit, whose power basically illuminates the area for him via damn explosions, isn't going to be able to dodge/block/blow out of the air shurikens (which last I checked, were slower then bullets), and that Gambit, whose also dodged lasers, heavy vehicle mounted machine guns, is going to get taken by surprise by three arrows (which last I checked, ALSO move slower then bullets) Not to mention, you said two hand ninjas in your last post, and now you're switching it to three?

And since when does your team have time to set up an ambush? Nick fury knows that Cap, Clint, and daredevil are on the field, which means he knows that Daredevil knows they're around. You're telling me that a guy who's trained in black ops, has served alongside some of the best men in Marvel, and despite being only human, and far older then most of the combatants here, isn't going to be expecting an ambush from a guy lieing in wait with superior numbers? Is Nick smoking pot now, or did his extensive military/spy training go out the window for the duration of the thread? You really think that Nick, with his forty fives minutes of prep won't have gambit find some way to counteract the ever growing darkness? Is the moon no longer shining on Alactraz? Why in the hell would Fury not be expecting an ambush? Hell, the man was a colonel with his own unit, and you think he's never heard the term ambush before? I don't even have military training, and if I knew there were eight guys gunning for my three, at some point, they'd try to use superior numbers to overwhelm me. You also assume that Gambit and Fury are instantly going to be separated. Back to back, if Nick hides behind the shield , throws his grenade, and opens fire while Gambit uses his bowstaff/reflexes to avoid projectiles while tossing cards (which he can actually tear for more projectiles) like a mad man isn't going to be able to hold them off? If you want some presicion throwing, I've got it for you.

Precision throwing in the dark (Just in case you thought he couldn't)

Darkened room, at least ten to fifteen feet away

And, for my own personal enjoyment (and maybe to even put the kaibosh on all the cover your trying to give Ronin)

He can and will throw multiple cards at once, Three decks, fifty two cards each, and let's say a three foot blast radius. I like Gambits odds on this one, and if you think Fury isn't going to let Gambit know that hawkeye can pull off trick shots, once again, you're lowballing Nick Fury. At this point, even if my team doesn't win, your team isn't taking them without some heavy losses to the roster. At this point, for my team, it's not about winning. It's about taking out as many of your guys as we can, and if Gambit wants to, he'll light that island up with three full decks. Bang, you dead.

If you want to open it up to voting, I'm pretty much spent. Win or lose, this has been a fantastic debate.

14 years ago

dane

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#19 Edited By dane

@Lance Uppercut:

I don't know what scan you're looking at but your first scan, DD lands and Omega Red is directly behind him choking a civilian:

On the Ninjas: I got the numbers mixed up, so let's go with what I originally said. 3 Ninjas pinning down Nick Fury while 2 are distracting Gambit. They're cannon fodder anyway, but skilled cannon fodder.

On DD vs Omega Red: In your scan he tags him with the billy clubs and you say it did nothing. No doubt, billy clubs ain't shit. DD has the Muramasa in this case but, if tags him once it's game over for Omega Red and he tags him pretty easy. I have scans of DD tagging Spiderman easily.

On Gambit: Again, none of those projectiles that he's dodging explode like the arrows Hawkeye has. Here's an idea of exploding arrows blast radius. (Taskmaster uses the same ones Hawkeye did):

You really think a volley of 3 of them, exploding inches from Gambit's body won't be fatal?

You said originally that Nick and Gambit attack head on and lay down suppressing fire. I just said my guys would heard them coming with Daredevil's senses and set up an ambush. If your guys are doing some counter-ambush you should have mentioned that instead of the suppressing fire thing.

If Nick and Gambit fight back to back, what do they do when Hawkeye shoots a volley of explosive arrows? They'll be right next to each other. Do they deflect off the shield and explode above their heads or what? He can't deflect them all and block the blast radius for all 3 exploding at different locations. If Gambit throws out projectile cards like a nutter he'll kill Nick Fury for sure. More than one hand ninja, either way will be within h2h range of him and if he's next to Nick he'll take him out with the ninjas. Cap has a shield to block cards and Hawkeye will be either shooting down from a rooftop or behind cover somewhere as I've said.

On those scans:

He's throwing them at zombies dude. Zombies don't move very fast even by normal human standards. Cap, Hawkeye and Hand Ninjas are many, many times faster.

The chick with the handheld device scan is a good bit of accuracy, the problem is she's standing stock still and she's out in the open. Something they aren't doing.

With enough explosives he could take down a building but Hawkeye won't be in it. Says in the rules you can't enter buildings and you can hear the charged cards coming and as you said, they light up in the night. I was merely saying Hawkeye's Ronin outfit is black and will provide him with fantastic camouflage at night. Neither of them have enhanced senses so they won't find it any easier to see a stark black costume at night than we would.

I don't see any of your guys coming out alive.

I've posted my scans and made my points in the posts above on the individual fights. I'm more than happy to open up voting. I've enjoyed the debate and I wish you luck win or lose.

14 years ago

Lance Uppercut

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#20 Edited By Lance Uppercut

@Dane: Alright, last one, I swear.

Yeah, but the scan of him landing doesn't have Red doing anything at all. Matt turns, hits Red, then goes in physical and gets slaughtered. He can try and distract Red all he wants, but we've seen what rockets and grenades do to Red.

Nothing. And Spider-Man =/= Red. Red is a highly trained, highly skilled death machine. It's all he does. Spider-Man.... not so much.

Gambits own projectiles naturally explode. I'm fairly sure he's used to dodging a little boom. And even if Hawkeye shoots them at Gambit, nothing stopping Gambit from detonating them waaaaay before impact. With Gambits accuracy and skill, I don't think they're going to get close to him. But of course, I'm bias on the matter =)

If Hawkeyes on a building and Gambit decides to pull a full monty and just unloads, the buildings coming down. And once again, Nicks a soldier. he's going to be scouting every possible position during battle, and with the psychic link from my team, if either of them sees arrows, projectiles, anything coming at them, they're in such close proximity that they can warn each other, turn, switch opponents, etc. Both of them on. are at least well trained enough to turn in formation.

But yeah. If you have anything else, I think it's time for the public to decide. Good luck man. And if you beat me, you better make it through the next round.

14 years ago

dane

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#21 Edited By dane

@Lance Uppercut: ok, ok one more.

Spider-Man might not be a death machine but you can't argue he's really fast and agile. Can't be easy to tag by any means. No doubting Omega's durability but he can't stand up to the M-Blade.

Gambit has great dodge feats but Clint really never misses, it's an immovable object/irresistible force thing.

No doubt. I think either of them could get detonated on this one. Clint has dodged attacks from metahumans in the Avengers for years, I think if he saw a flurry of exploding cards coming for him he'd get out of there.

My team also has a TP Link so if Captain America saw any opening at all he could give the information instantly to a Hand Ninja or Hawkeye. The two Avengers have outstanding teamwork even without a telepathic link.

That's it for me. It's been a pleasure and I wish you the best of luck. Same goes for you though, if you beat me you better smash the rest :) Time for the wider CV audience to voice their opinions.

14 years ago

Strafe Prower

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#22 Edited By Strafe Prower

Great job guys

14 years ago

Knightly1

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#23 Edited By Knightly1

Woooow. You guys are something else lol. Went all out.

14 years ago

Ferro Vida

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#24 Edited By Ferro Vida

@Dane said:

"

I wouldn't much recommend using that M16 either. "

That scan is from the Ultimates. It doesn't apply here

14 years ago

dane

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#25 Edited By dane

@Ferro Vida: It is but it's nothing 616 Cap can't do. He even did the exact same thing to Deadpool in Civil War while he was looking the other way, I just can't find a scan from that and I had the Ultimates season 4 on hand.

14 years ago

Ferro Vida

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#26 Edited By Ferro Vida

@Dane: I know Cap can do that kind of thing, I'm just tired of certain people who will remain unnamed posting non-canon scans and trying to pass them off as proof. Btw, do you have the scans from civil war? I've been trying to track them down for months now.

14 years ago

Knightly1

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#27 Edited By Knightly1

cant believe all of this fit onto one page.

14 years ago

dane

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#28 Edited By dane

@Ferro Vida said:

" @Dane: I know Cap can do that kind of thing, I'm just tired of certain people who will remain unnamed posting non-canon scans and trying to pass them off as proof. Btw, do you have the scans from civil war? I've been trying to track them down for months now. "

Just about everything Cap did in Civil War is on Andy's images. My compliments to him for unknowingly supplying me with most of my feat scans for Cap :P I've updated my cap bullet dodging scans though I think everyone knows Cap can block bullets with his shield, he does it in basically every comic he's ever been in.

It's totally cool to call me out on the Ultimate Universe scan but it was just something I've seen 616 Cap do before and couldn't find a scan for.

14 years ago

morpheus_

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#29 Edited By morpheus_ Moderator

Considering the duo appears to be ready, I hereby call this thread closed.

Let the voting begin.

14 years ago

Power NeXus

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#30 Edited By Power NeXus

My vote goes to Dane. The respective teams were virtually equal in my opinion, but I think Dane did a better job of making a case for his team.

14 years ago

Lunacyde

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#31 Edited By Lunacyde Moderator

Very difficult to decide. I'm gonna think about it.

14 years ago

Andferne

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#32 Edited By Andferne

My vote goes to Dane. If he did not have the M-Blade I think my vote would of gone to Lance.

14 years ago

Strafe Prower

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#33 Edited By Strafe Prower

I will vote Dane.....This is one of the closest matches I have seen.

14 years ago

DedmanWalkin

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#34 Edited By DedmanWalkin

I don't know who to vote for, damn yous.

I just flipped a coin and it landed on heads so Lance gets my vote. Only fair way, I could come up with.

14 years ago

mattbryce2000

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#35 Edited By mattbryce2000

Grr. This is a tricky one. I'm gonna have to go with Lance on this one, I think people under estimate how much power Gambit can pack into those cards.

14 years ago

Donovan Montgomery

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#36 Edited By Donovan Montgomery

I have one question before I register my vote, does the LA smog difuse Reds death spores? I was thinking it only worked against his pheromones he sends out not the death spores.

14 years ago

Lance Uppercut

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#37 Edited By Lance Uppercut

@Donovan Montgomery said:

" I have one question before I register my vote, does the LA smog difuse Reds death spores? I was thinking it only worked against his pheromones he sends out not the death spores. "

The death spores are his 'pheromones'. However the ability does not negate his power to drain the life force of others.

14 years ago

Donovan Montgomery

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#38 Edited By Donovan Montgomery

@Lance Uppercut:
Thank you.
On that technicality I give this to Lance as I doubt DD would survive long enough in Reds grasp to deliver a fatal blow there for doing what he went for and backing up his team.
(Am I allowed to cast my vote for that reason?) = ^ 6

14 years ago

Lance Uppercut

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#39 Edited By Lance Uppercut

@Donovan Montgomery said:

" @Lance Uppercut: Thank you. On that technicality I give this to Lance as I doubt DD would survive long enough in Reds grasp to deliver a fatal blow there for doing what he went for and backing up his team. (Am I allowed to cast my vote for that reason?) = ^ 6 "

No rule against it to my knowledge

14 years ago

The_Scourge

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#40 Edited By The_Scourge

My vote goes to Lance. Great job by both guys, it was close.

14 years ago

DaddyCool

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#41 Edited By DaddyCool

My vote is going to go to Lance. This was a very enjoyable read.

14 years ago

Ferro Vida

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#42 Edited By Ferro Vida

This has been a tough match for me to call. Lance and Dane both made a good case, but I'm going to give my vote to Dane.

14 years ago

Precise

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#43 Edited By Precise

Hm.. tough match but i'm going with Dane. He just made his point a little clearer in my eyes. But both participants gave great cases against each other!

14 years ago

Knightly1

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#44 Edited By Knightly1

Jesus(excuse my language). You guys are some crazy debaters. Ultimately I guess I would give it to Dane, but I will keep reviewing it, so dont count yourself out yet Lance.My vote may change.

14 years ago

k4tzm4n

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#45 Edited By k4tzm4n Moderator

An excellent debate from both. My vote goes to Dane.

14 years ago

Knightly1

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#46 Edited By Knightly1

Well I carefully read ALL of that AGAIN!! And due to the fact that he has Gambits ability to cut up more and more cars, the 45 minute prep(which I somehow missed), and Omega Red I believe Lance's team can take this a little(LITTLE) bit more-so than Dane's. Very, VERY,VERY good debate.

14 years ago

Strafe Prower

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#47 Edited By Strafe Prower

Dane is winning by 1 vote if I counted correctly
7-6

14 years ago

dane

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#48 Edited By dane

Anyone else got some last minute votes?

14 years ago

dane

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#49 Edited By dane

bump

14 years ago

Retnex

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#50 Edited By Retnex

@Dane:
I'm going to read through this and try to get my vote in quickly

14 years ago

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Marvel Tourny: Dane Vs. Lance Uppercut

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