Make a team of prequel Jedi to beat Sidious

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owie

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#1  Edited By owie  Moderator
Make a team of prequel Jedi to beat Darth Sidious. 
 
No Caption Provided

 
Sidious is EU, Revenge of the Sith era, has two lightsabers, and can use all of his force techniques.
 
Rules for your team:
1.  You must use the minimum number of characters it takes to win.
2.  You must use only Jedi (not Sith), and only those who were adults during the era of the prequel trilogy (however, they may be from the Expanded Universe, they do not have to be from the movies).
3.  You cannot use Anakin, just to keep the issue of his weakness for being seduced towards the dark side out of it.
3.  Your team is armed with lightsabers and may use any force powers they have exhibited in the EU.
4.  Win by death or incapacitation.
 
Battle takes place in the forests of Endor.  Everyone is in character.  Sidious knows they are attacking, and they know he is ready for them.  Battle starts at 30'.
 
What is the minimum number of Jedi you need to beat Sidious?
 
Round 2: Same as above, but you cannot use Mace or Yoda either.
 
(As far as I can tell, this hasn't been done.  There's another beat Sidious thread but it allows any EU characters.  In this thread, I want to see if the prequel-era Jedi had what it took to beat Sidious if they had their best team possible.)
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VegetaStark

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#2  Edited By VegetaStark

Round 1; Mace Windu all thats needed

Round 2: Master Obi Wan, & Qui Gon Jin (if he's alive/ or force ghost) if not Qui Gon then... Obi Wan, Plo Koon and Ki-Adi-Mundi

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owie

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#3  Edited By owie  Moderator
@VegetaStark said:

Round 1; Mace Windu all thats needed

Round 2: Master Obi Wan, & Qui Gon Jin (if he's alive/ or force ghost) if not Qui Gon then... Obi Wan, Plo Koon and Ki-Adi-Mundi

I'll disagree with you on round 1.  I assume you mean that Windu is all it takes because it seems like he won their duel in ROTS?  I am of the opinion that Sidious let him win up until Anakin showed up.
 
I believe this for a couple reasons.  One, I think it's what makes the most sense according to the plot.  Sidious wanted Anakin to believe that the Jedi were trying to assassinate him, so he had to keep the Jedi alive long enough for Anakin to show back up.  Then he needed Anakin to kill a Jedi to cement his position on the Dark Side; once he killed a Jedi, there was no going back.  It's also just my plain reading of that scene: it looks pretty obvious to me that his "oh no I am so weak please help me" whine to Anakin is pretty fake and intended to be manipulative, not real.
 
Two, Yoda couldn't beat Sidious, and while I know that it is at least arguable that Windu is better duelist than Yoda, I don't think there are many who think that Windu is as formidable overall as Yoda, when you include force abilities.  So if Yoda couldn't beat him, then I doubt Windu could. 
 
Three, given the high quality of the other Jedi that Sidious took out in seconds, I don't know if it's reasonable to think that Windu could do that much better than them unless Sidious let him.
 
If you don't believe/agree with these arguments, here's a link to a way more detailed one by Silver2467.
 
Basically I think Mace would need someone else with him in order for him to win.
 
For team 2, I think you'd be better off with Obi Wan, Jin, Koon, and Ki Adi Mundi all together.  (Again, if you think it would take Obi Wan, Koon, and Adi Mundi all together to beat Sidious, don't you think that is a signal that Windu could not do it himself?)
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Jorgevy

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#4  Edited By Jorgevy

Qui Gon jinn solos both rounds with his awesomeness and ghost girth

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owie

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#5  Edited By owie  Moderator
@Jorgevy said:

Qui Gon jinn solos both rounds with his awesomeness and ghost girth

I'm not sure if you're serious, but if so, has Qui-Gon had any real feats since turning into a ghost?  I know he appeared to various people and taught them to become ghosts, but has he done anything other than that?  Again, otherwise, I don't think he's more powerful than Yoda, who could not beat Sidious.  I do think he could be a very effective team member along with some other characters though.
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#6  Edited By Kingjohnrocks

and while I know that it is at least arguable that Windu is better duelist than Yoda,

Yoda beat Mace in a duel before. Yoda is the Supreme Swordsmaster of the Jedi order, and Windu was beaten by Dooku before when Yoda had dooku running for the hills everytime. I hardly call Windu a "Better duelist"

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#7  Edited By owie  Moderator
@Kingjohnrocks said:

@Owie

and while I know that it is at least arguable that Windu is better duelist than Yoda,

Yoda beat Mace in a duel before. Yoda is the Supreme Swordsmaster of the Jedi order, and Windu was beaten by Dooku before when Yoda had dooku running for the hills everytime. I hardly call Windu a "Better duelist"

I agree but I know there are people who would at least argue the point.
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Nightflash

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#8  Edited By Nightflash

Round 1: The jedi order

Round 2: The jedi order w/o yoda and mace

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darkelf35

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#9  Edited By darkelf35

round 1. Yoda/mace/obiwan very high chance of victory 90+%

round 2. Obiwan,Qui gon, Plo Kloon,Kit fisto, ki adi More than 75% chance to win

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ascenscion

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#10  Edited By ascenscion

Right, firstly, Sidious is THE most powerful Sith ever. In the whole of the Star Wars universe. It was said that Anakin had more potential, but Obi Wan ruined him. Sidious would break Revan, Bane, etc. So this is going to be an insanely difficult fight even for an elite Jedi team. He held back from Mace and appeared to let him win so Anakin would convert to the Dark side; he defeated Yoda in a battle that was not too taxing for him; he cut down Maul (one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy) and Savage Opress with ease, without even tapping into his ridiculous force abilities too much. Not even going to bother mentioning his feats post-Republic era. Team 1: Yoda, Mace Windu, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku (if counting pre-corruption, if not the Jedi have lost a great team member), Cin Drallig, Kit Fisto, Yaddle, Shaak Ti. This is the MINIMUM I'd personally send to take on Sidious- even then, very few of these will survive. I see Yoda, Kenobi, Dooku (if applicable), Mace and possibly Drallig surviving. Yoda is very powerful, one of the most powerful Jedi ever (top 5 definitely), but Sith power is just so much more effective at killing people that someone of Sidious' power would have no trouble decimating this assault. Team 2: Probably not possible. Led by Mundi; team members are Kenobi, Jinn, Plo Koon, Drallig, Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Yaddle, Luminara Unduli, Shaak Ti, the rest of the Jedi High Council members, and at least ten other Jedi Masters. Even then I don't really see how they can strictly BEAT the Chancellor; he would likely escape. Best bet for the Jedi is to do a wall-of-light style attack to negate Palpatine's inevitable Sith lightning, and leave about ten Jedi to focus on containing him/holding him with the force whilst the others duelled him. You saw how easily he took down three exceptional Jedi Masters in Episode 3, as well as being able to PRETEND to be beaten by Mace- this would be a very difficult fight.

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darkelf35

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#11  Edited By darkelf35

@ascenscion: Actually common belief is that he is the 2nd most powerful behind Vitiate

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MorganFreeman

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#12  Edited By MorganFreeman

@darkelf35 said:

@ascenscion: Actually common belief is that he is the 2nd most powerful behind Vitiate

What has Vitiate done to put himself above Sidious?

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@darkelf35 said:

@ascenscion: Actually common belief is that he is the 2nd most powerful behind Vitiate

lolwut. That is not common belief at all. Sidious is the strongest sith ever. Caedus and his master are considered 2nd and 3rd usually.

On-topic: Yoda, Mace Windu, Qui-Gon, Kit Fisto

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#14  Edited By ShootingNova

@darkelf35 said:

Actually common belief is that he is the 2nd most powerful behind Vitiate

Which is both N-Canon and pointless.

said:

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology

Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered—in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane—only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.

--Taken from The Dark Side Sourcebook

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Plagueis made a soothing gesture and explained in great detail what had taken place. Concluding, he said, "He threatened, too, to place you out of reach."
All the while Plagueis spoke, Palpatine was storming through circles on the narrow path, shaking his head in anger and balling his fists. "He can't do this!" he snarled. He hasn't the right! I won't allow it!"
Palpatine's fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

--Taken from the Dark Empire Sourcebook

Canon itself presents Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord, and unheard "common belief" (which in fact isn't the common belief at all) is not even canon, and thus has no standing.

@Owie: Round 2 is pretty much going to have to be throwing on as many names as possible simply to overwhelm Palpatine with sheer number. You have removed Yoda and Mace, so this is becoming much harder now.

Palpatine is already capable of striking faster than Windu, Anakin and Maul can react (all in their prime):

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

-- Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor. Then Sidious seized his former apprentice with the Force, hurling him against the wall. Maul’s vision swam. He tried to get up, but realized he was already in the air, held aloft by the Force. Sidious slammed him into the floor. Then Maul was off the ground again, legs kicking for purchase in empty air. He could taste blood in his mouth. His head hit the wall with a sickening crunch.

-- Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

@VegetaStark said:

Round 1; Mace Windu all thats needed

No. As shown above, Mace lacks the ability to even react to Palpatine's blows. He only managed to do so because he was amped significantly, and was capable of being killed by Windu with his Lightning.

@ShootingNova said:

Then we have the fact that Palpatine had the ability to kill Windu with Lightning whenever he desired:

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

And finally, even though Mace was amped:

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center
And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

He only ever duelled Palpatine to an impasse, in other words, a stalemate:

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Additionally, as Silver, has noted, contrary to popular belief, Mace's ultimate disarming of Palpatine was not achieved through skill, it was achieved through Palpatine's fear that Mace exploited (the following two are Silver's exact quotes to illustrate the point):

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

The problem is, all of this fear was not Palpatine's in the first place, in fact, it was Anakin's. Apparently, Palpatine had misdirected the sense of fear to make it seem like it was being projected by him.

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel ismine?"
Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—And Palpatine was not afraid.Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Which leads to an ultimate conclusion: it seems most likely that Palpatine set up the entire fight, as he did sense the Jedi Masters and Anakin's arrival prematurely.

The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy. The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception. In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air. This, too, was good.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Round 2: Master Obi Wan, & Qui Gon Jin (if he's alive/ or force ghost) if not Qui Gon then... Obi Wan, Plo Koon and Ki-Adi-Mundi

Again, as shown above, Palpatine fights faster than all of these can react, and this is not a number great enough to overwhelm him.

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ImBoredLetsDebate

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@ascenscion said:

Right, firstly, Sidious is THE most powerful Sith ever. In the whole of the Star Wars universe. It was said that Anakin had more potential, but Obi Wan ruined him. Sidious would break Revan, Bane, etc. So this is going to be an insanely difficult fight even for an elite Jedi team. He held back from Mace and appeared to let him win so Anakin would convert to the Dark side; he defeated Yoda in a battle that was not too taxing for him; he cut down Maul (one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy) and Savage Opress with ease, without even tapping into his ridiculous force abilities too much. Not even going to bother mentioning his feats post-Republic era. Team 1: Yoda, Mace Windu, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku (if counting pre-corruption, if not the Jedi have lost a great team member), Cin Drallig, Kit Fisto, Yaddle, Shaak Ti. This is the MINIMUM I'd personally send to take on Sidious- even then, very few of these will survive. I see Yoda, Kenobi, Dooku (if applicable), Mace and possibly Drallig surviving. Yoda is very powerful, one of the most powerful Jedi ever (top 5 definitely), but Sith power is just so much more effective at killing people that someone of Sidious' power would have no trouble decimating this assault. Team 2: Probably not possible. Led by Mundi; team members are Kenobi, Jinn, Plo Koon, Drallig, Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Yaddle, Luminara Unduli, Shaak Ti, the rest of the Jedi High Council members, and at least ten other Jedi Masters. Even then I don't really see how they can strictly BEAT the Chancellor; he would likely escape. Best bet for the Jedi is to do a wall-of-light style attack to negate Palpatine's inevitable Sith lightning, and leave about ten Jedi to focus on containing him/holding him with the force whilst the others duelled him. You saw how easily he took down three exceptional Jedi Masters in Episode 3, as well as being able to PRETEND to be beaten by Mace- this would be a very difficult fight.

You overestimate Sidious' abilities or underestimate the Jedi. Yoda was able to give him a good fight by himself. There is no indication that Sidious was holding back against him and they were completely equal until the ending of the battle because Yoda was growing weaker as Sidious grew stronger. Sidious gets ROFLstomped vs 20+ Jedi. Yoda and Mace could take him themselves if Yoda started fighting him and Mace watched for a bit allowing Sidious' rage to fuel his Vaapad so he could keep up. Since we are only using prequel jedi, I don't think bringing in EU feats is relevant.

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#16  Edited By ShootingNova

@ImBoredLetsDebate: Depends on the Jedi. If they are Padawans, then yeah....

Besides, Mace seriously wouldn't be much of a point when you are talking about Palpatine.

Since we are only using prequel jedi, I don't think bringing in EU feats is relevant.

And this is just the most irrelevant thing I have ever heard. So what if it is Prequel Jedi? The OP explicitly stated that it was EU Palpatine.

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#17  Edited By ShootingNova

@Owie said:

I agree but I know there are people who would at least argue the point.

It cannot be argued. Canon says:

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

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@ShootingNova said:

@ImBoredLetsDebate: Depends on the Jedi. If they are Padawans, then yeah....

Besides, Mace seriously wouldn't be much of a point when you are talking about Palpatine.

Since we are only using prequel jedi, I don't think bringing in EU feats is relevant.

And this is just the most irrelevant thing I have ever heard. So what if it is Prequel Jedi? The OP explicitly stated that it was EU Palpatine.

They aren't Padawans, obviously. He said the Jedi High Council and at least 10 other Jedi Masters, along with the others he named.

And by EU I meant his cloned bodies and such, as ascension mentioned that he doesn't need to mention "post-republic feats".

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ascenscion

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#19  Edited By ascenscion

@ImBoredLetsDebate: I don't agree. Sidious took down Tiin, Fisto and that other guy whose name escapes me before Mace even realised what happened. He defeated Maul and Opress in less than a minute. He broke Yoda in a few minutes, battling him to a relative standstill. It'd take a LOT of Jedi to take Palpatine down properly. Even if my team 1 started to beat down on him, there's potential for an escape; it is by no means a wipeout team. Team 2 have little chance of beating him, without the only two people who haven't been blitzed by Sidious.

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#20  Edited By VegetaStark

geroge lucas said himself that the only ones able to defeat sidius are; yoda, mace windu and anakin skywalker..so therefore everything else is moot to the argument...

mace could solo if it comes down to lightsaber fight

yoda would back him up with force powers

the end

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@ascenscion said:

@ImBoredLetsDebate: I don't agree. Sidious took down Tiin, Fisto and that other guy whose name escapes me before Mace even realised what happened. He defeated Maul and Opress in less than a minute. He broke Yoda in a few minutes, battling him to a relative standstill. It'd take a LOT of Jedi to take Palpatine down properly. Even if my team 1 started to beat down on him, there's potential for an escape; it is by no means a wipeout team. Team 2 have little chance of beating him, without the only two people who haven't been blitzed by Sidious.

I know he did. Mace was only able to keep up because of Vaapad. Yoda was able to keep up in general. That is why I am saying Mace can watch for a bit while the dark side fuels his Vaapad, then join the fight when he can keep up. Vaapad+Yoda's moral support, and I think Mace could take Sidious in a lightsaber fight. Define "a LOT". If 3 is a lot, then I guess it would take a lot; otherwise it could take just 2-3. Yoda and Mace or Yoda/Mace/Qui-Gon.

@VegetaStark said:

geroge lucas said himself that the only ones able to defeat sidius are; yoda, mace windu and anakin skywalker..so therefore everything else is moot to the argument...

mace could solo if it comes down to lightsaber fight

yoda would back him up with force powers

the end

Yoda > Mace in lightsaber combat

Yoda > Mace in force powers

Mace would get killed by Sidious before he can react; just like Sidious did the 3 masters Mace brought with him. He is a liability to Yoda unless he is amped by Vaapad before he engages in the fight.

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#22  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@VegetaStark said:

geroge lucas said himself that the only ones able to defeat sidius are; yoda, mace windu and anakin skywalker..so therefore everything else is moot to the argument...

mace could solo if it comes down to lightsaber fight

yoda would back him up with force powers

the end

Where was this stated?

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#23  Edited By Jorgevy

@Owie said:

@Jorgevy said:

Qui Gon jinn solos both rounds with his awesomeness and ghost girth

I'm not sure if you're serious, but if so, has Qui-Gon had any real feats since turning into a ghost? I know he appeared to various people and taught them to become ghosts, but has he done anything other than that? Again, otherwise, I don't think he's more powerful than Yoda, who could not beat Sidious. I do think he could be a very effective team member along with some other characters though.

I thought the word "girth" would have made it clear wether I was or not being serious...

guess it didn't, at least for you.

although Qui Gon Jinn is the best ever, obviously his "awesomeness and ghost girth" aren't tools to take down Sidious

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#24  Edited By VegetaStark

@dccomicsrule2011: in a commentary on the blue ray of revenge of the sith...i think or in an interview.. i will try and find it

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#25  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

@darkelf35 said:

@ascenscion: Actually common belief is that he is the 2nd most powerful behind Vitiate

Common to whom, exactly? No, Vitiate is not second to Palpatine. Just... just no. Not even close.

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#26  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

Oh God... I see where this thread is going fast.

See ya.

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#27  Edited By goblin123

@Nightflash said:

Round 1: The jedi order

Round 2: The jedi order w/o yoda and mace

LOL THAT'S COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL!

The OP said ''1. You must use the minimum number of characters it takes to win.''

If your team in Round 2 can win (entire jedi order w/o mace and yoda) than how can the entire jedi order (including mace and yoda) be the MINIMUM required to win in Round 1?

Just playing with your own logic here...

If the entire jedi order w/o two specific jedis can win in round 2 then there is no reason the same team can't win in round 1 logically. Instead, you clearly violated the rule of using a MINIMUM number of people by using a team that violates the rules in round 1 (one that has 2 more members than necessary).

Shouldn't you have said the jedi order w/o yoda and mace for both of your answers?

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#28  Edited By JamesKM716

@MorganFreeman said:

@darkelf35 said:

@ascenscion: Actually common belief is that he is the 2nd most powerful behind Vitiate

What has Vitiate done to put himself above Sidious?

Nothing.

@ascenscion said:

Right, firstly, Sidious is THE most powerful Sith ever. In the whole of the Star Wars universe. It was said that Anakin had more potential, but Obi Wan ruined him. Sidious would break Revan, Bane, etc. So this is going to be an insanely difficult fight even for an elite Jedi team. He held back from Mace and appeared to let him win so Anakin would convert to the Dark side; he defeated Yoda in a battle that was not too taxing for him; he cut down Maul (one of the best swordsmen in the galaxy) and Savage Opress with ease, without even tapping into his ridiculous force abilities too much. Not even going to bother mentioning his feats post-Republic era. Team 1: Yoda, Mace Windu, Ki-Adi Mundi, Plo Koon, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku (if counting pre-corruption, if not the Jedi have lost a great team member), Cin Drallig, Kit Fisto, Yaddle, Shaak Ti. This is the MINIMUM I'd personally send to take on Sidious- even then, very few of these will survive. I see Yoda, Kenobi, Dooku (if applicable), Mace and possibly Drallig surviving. Yoda is very powerful, one of the most powerful Jedi ever (top 5 definitely), but Sith power is just so much more effective at killing people that someone of Sidious' power would have no trouble decimating this assault. Team 2: Probably not possible. Led by Mundi; team members are Kenobi, Jinn, Plo Koon, Drallig, Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Yaddle, Luminara Unduli, Shaak Ti, the rest of the Jedi High Council members, and at least ten other Jedi Masters. Even then I don't really see how they can strictly BEAT the Chancellor; he would likely escape. Best bet for the Jedi is to do a wall-of-light style attack to negate Palpatine's inevitable Sith lightning, and leave about ten Jedi to focus on containing him/holding him with the force whilst the others duelled him. You saw how easily he took down three exceptional Jedi Masters in Episode 3, as well as being able to PRETEND to be beaten by Mace- this would be a very difficult fight.

This post is filled with win.

Anywho, on topic:

Round 1: Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Kit Fisto, Shaak Ti, Dooku, Cin Drallig, Yaddle, Agen Kolar, Sasee Tiin, A'Sharad Hett, Eeth Koth, Jax Pavan, Ferus Olin, Evan Piell, Colemon Trebor, K'Kruhk, Aayla Secura, Quinlan Vos, Plo Koon, and Luminara Unduli

This round only possibly wins because Yoda should be able to face Sidious on some level, and if the other Jedi back him up they might be able to win. Especially if their able to use Force Light. That signifacently helps them out.

Round 2: Same as above, But honestly I don't really think they could win. Round 1's best chance is Yoda, without him, I don't think tehy can win.

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#29  Edited By Silver2467

@ImBoredLetsDebate said:

You overestimate Sidious' abilities or underestimate the Jedi. Sidious gets ROFLstomped vs 20+ Jedi.

Agreed. Sidious defeating six to eight notable Jedi is already pushing it; him contending with over a dozen Jedi, including all of the Council members, is more than a little silly.

For Round 1, Yoda and a couple others should suffice.

Pertaining to Round 2, the best chance any team has is to combine the right skills in ample numbers to overwhelm Sidious. All a team really needs to win is one solid lightsaber stroke. To achieve that, my party for Round 2:

1. Kit Fisto: I want Fisto selected for my team because of his Shii-Cho proficiency. Although this has never been verified in any sources to my knowledge, I still maintain that the reason Kit survived for a more protracted period against Sidious than Saesee or Agen did is Shii-Cho. Shii-Cho is designed for engaging more than one opponent or a single opponent with multiple weapons. While Sidious only brandished a single lightsaber against Mace, Kit, Agen, and Saesee, the speed disparity between Sidious and Fisto is sizable enough that to Fisto's eye, it would appear that Sidious is swinging several blades. With the visual illusion of myriads of blades, Shii-Cho would have an occasion for its centermost technique to afford Fisto an advantage that his confederates lacked. However, because there are no sources to validate this, you can take or leave this theory at your own discretion, but it makes sense to me based on the mechanics of Kit's form. He still only lasted for a brief time against Sidious, but I am confident he can replicate that effect here. With his allies reinforcing his efforts, Fisto's bladework could be useful, whether offensively or defensively.

2. Obi-Wan Kenobi: Considering his status as the defensive master, Obi-Wan could be beneficial to my team. Under normal circumstances, Obi-Wan's talent for Soresu would be immaterial if he confronted Sidious on account of the latter's speed, but again, this is where strength in numbers can compensate for him. I doubt he would deliver any killing blows to Sidious, but he could possibly provide protection for himself or his teammates.

3: Quinlan Vos: Quin is a notch or two below Kit and Obi-Wan as a swordsman, but I want an Ataru adept in this fight. Ataru is primarily an offensive combat style that employs fluid acrobatics and is acclimated toward dueling a single enemy. Dexterity and speed would be important here in order to counter Sidious' own degree of agility and attack speed so as to connect a blow on him. While Quin might not be reflexively fast enough to outreact Sidious, he does stand a superior chance of surviving by exploiting his acrobatics to evade hits.

4. Aayla Secura: Same reason as Quin; she is adroit with Ataru, not to mention should would have a level of synergy with Vos (though whether that would become a factor before either one is killed depends on how the fight bears itself out).

5. Qui-Gon Jinn: Once again, Ataru master, and Qui-Gon's sensitivity to the Living Force could lead him to the most favorable approach of combating Sidious and working with his allies.

6. Dooku: (Dooku never left the Jedi Order until after the events of The Phantom Menace; he was a Jedi his entire life before then, meaning he was a Jedi in the prequel era. If the TC wants to forbid him, fair enough, but I will point out that Dooku was not as powerful as a Jedi as he was as a Sith.) The reason Dooku could be advantageous for my team is because of the precision of Makashi. I somehow doubt Dooku would fare well against the aggressive speed and striking power that Sidious could unleash on him should the latter choose to target him, but on the inverse perspective, if his party members assist him properly, Dooku might have the finesse and expertise to release an opportunely timed saber stroke that could impale Sidious. As with Quin and Aayla, Dooku may perform better alongside Qui-Gon.

7. Anoona Bondara: Bondara, I mainly choose for his skill and technical knowledge. He can add further offensive maneuvers to supplement the others.

8. Oppo Rancisis: Not choosing him for combative purposes as much as coordinative ones. Oppo knows Battle Meditation and could bolster the efforts of his allies with it. With that said, it has already been shown in the Republic series that Rancisis' Battle Meditation failed to pierce the dark veil Sidious had constructed around Sith intent. So Oppo would not succeed here in diminishing Sidious' fighting capabilities, but he could still enhance the fighting capabilities of the Jedi.

My party will lose many members in this fight, and which ones exactly will die, I have no idea. Who Sidious would target in particular out of this group is unclear; so there are any number of ways this fight could end. But I am still confident in my team's chances, even if Sidious has the good sense to and manages to cut down Rancisis even with interference from the other Jedi. This team could beat Sidious for a moderate majority even without Rancisis' support, but if Rancisis does endure the fight, he would only solidify my team's victory.

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#30  Edited By ShootingNova

@VegetaStark said:

geroge lucas said himself that the only ones able to defeat sidius are; yoda, mace windu and anakin skywalker..so therefore everything else is moot to the argument...

No, he didn't. Show me. People think saying "Lucas said this" or "Lucas said that" is a strong point because Lucas the the highest class of canon. But making up information ends here. You either put up evidence, or you say nothing.

Lucas himself has edited and approved the RotS novelization, henceforth, it is G-Canon (in fact, I believe all the movie novelizations are). Even if the others aren't, at least the RotS one is and there is actually canonical evidence saying Palpatine won against Yoda, and fights faster than Windu and Skywalker and so on, in fact, Lucas already approved of most of this.

Therefore, your entire point is moot until you show evidence.

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#31  Edited By VegetaStark

@ShootingNova: okay...

here it is on swtor forums on this very debate mace vs sidious

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2339501

and one of the comments on there is "Regarding the actual duel, Lucas confirmed in RotS 2005 commentary that Windu had won the duel, then Sidious feigned defeat so Anakin would intervene and betray the Jedi, Sidious then dropped the act and killed Windu, much to Anakin's surprise."

so its not just me saying it...and i watched the Rots commentary and he says it himself

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#32  Edited By darkelf35

http://www.the-top-tens.com/items/darth-vitiate-sith-emperor-366365.asp

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#33  Edited By owie  Moderator

I appreciate all the detailed answers.

Let me start by saying to all those who want to use the Jedi version of Dooku, that that is totally fine.

I've had two ideas about how this battle could play out, and it's interesting to me to see that both approaches have had their advocates in this thread.

The first approach (for round 1) is basically the "Yoda and a couple other guys" approach, and seems to mostly be based on the fact that if Yoda more or less stalemated Sidious, then he would only need a couple more (formidable) guys to help him win outright.

The second approach (possibly for round 1, and more so for round 2) is the "they might not win no matter what" approach. This seems based on the idea that Sidious' power, as seen more in the EU, has had massive effects that (as far as I know, and I could well be wrong) have not been matched by Yoda and especially the other Jedi, and so perhaps Sidious and Yoda's movie duel was not as evenly balanced as it seemed. Examples of this level of power for Sidious would include his force storm, his mental control over a planet, etc. So according to this approach, Sidious is just too far above the rest of the Jedi for them to cope unless they come at him with an army. When this approach is applied to round 2 specifically, this approach also seems to imply that Yoda is so far above the rest of the Jedi that the others have no hope without him. I find this sort of interesting. I'm more of a Star Wars dabbler than expert, but is it really generally accepted that Yoda is that far above the other Jedi? I mean, clearly he is the grandmaster of his time and is the best. But is he exponentially better than the rest?

I tend to lean towards the first approach, which is that Sidious is a very big danger to any team, but that in round 1, Yoda and a couple guys like Windu, Jinn, or Dooku could take him.

Round 2, I would be less sure of what exact team could do it, but I would think that it is at least possible. The emperor has had moments of weakness and isn't totally undefeatable. For instance, while it's outside the scope the kind of fight in this thread, Sidious was taken out by a special gas attack in the Ghost Prison comic. And after all he was ultimately killed by Luke and (mostly) Vader. There may be more to that final battle than I know, but basically Anakin was able to kill him by tossing him down a shaft. My personal take on his fight with Yoda, based just on the movie, is that it was pretty even; it basically ends with Palpatine shooting lightning at Yoda, Yoda firing it back, and them both falling apart from each other. Sidious trounced Maul and Opress, but it did take a certain amount of time, which implies that with more help, a team could win. So with all that taken together, I think he is at least vulnerable to defeat by the right team.

Round 2 is pretty much going to have to be throwing on as many names as possible simply to overwhelm Palpatine with sheer number. You have removed Yoda and Mace, so this is becoming much harder now.

Round 2 is certainly not easy to figure out...what's your take on Round 1?

@Jorgevy said:

@Owie said:

@Jorgevy said:

Qui Gon jinn solos both rounds with his awesomeness and ghost girth

I'm not sure if you're serious, but if so, has Qui-Gon had any real feats since turning into a ghost? I know he appeared to various people and taught them to become ghosts, but has he done anything other than that? Again, otherwise, I don't think he's more powerful than Yoda, who could not beat Sidious. I do think he could be a very effective team member along with some other characters though.

I thought the word "girth" would have made it clear wether I was or not being serious...

guess it didn't, at least for you.

although Qui Gon Jinn is the best ever, obviously his "awesomeness and ghost girth" aren't tools to take down Sidious

Well, I figured, but I was also curious about whether Jinn has any post-death battle feats.

@JediXMan said:

Oh God... I see where this thread is going fast.

See ya.

Sorry...I was actually hoping to hear what your answers might be.

@Silver2467: Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I like your approach of matching up styles. I especially like your idea about Fisto and how he might have been able to use Shii-Cho against Sidious' seemingly-multiple lightsabers in ROTS. In fact, Sidious does have 2 sabers in this battle (which I took from his Clone Wars fight against Maul and Opress this week), so it might actually be even more effective here.

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#34  Edited By Silver2467

@VegetaStark said:

@ShootingNova: okay...

here it is on swtor forums on this very debate mace vs sidious

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2339501

and one of the comments on there is "Regarding the actual duel, Lucas confirmed in RotS 2005 commentary that Windu had won the duel, then Sidious feigned defeat so Anakin would intervene and betray the Jedi, Sidious then dropped the act and killed Windu, much to Anakin's surprise."

so its not just me saying it...and i watched the Rots commentary and he says it himself

Lucas never made either of those remarks in the commentary. If you think he did, then quote it and tell me during which scene he said it.

Seriously, it should be against the rules on this site for a user to say "Lucas said..." without properly citing it.

@Owie said:

Sidious trounced Maul and Opress, but it did take a certain amount of time, which implies that with more help, a team could win.

In fairness, both the show and the novel Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy outlined fairly plainly that Sidious was holding back profusely. Near the beginning, he Force pushed Maul and Savage to a wall and left them pinned there; they only came down when Sidious allowed them down. After Savage died, the novel described how Sidious began gradually increasing his speed until he eventually started fighting so fast that Maul was unable to follow his movements and instead saw countless lightsaber strokes head toward him simultaneously, despite the fact that Sidious was only handling two blades (ShootingNova provided a quote of this on the previous page). If Sidious had chosen to, he could have fought that fast from the outset and left them no means of reacting to him (similar to what he did to Saesee and Agen in RotS).

@Owie said:

The emperor has had moments of weakness and isn't totally undefeatable. For instance, while it's outside the scope the kind of fight in this thread, Sidious was taken out by a special gas attack in the Ghost Prison comic. And after all he was ultimately killed by Luke and (mostly) Vader.

That gas literally melted people from the inside out, and it killed everyone else in the palace. The fact that the Emperor could harness the Force to repel it at all is impressive. Regarding his death in RotJ, that was a prophesied death that Anakin entered Oneness to achieve. Palpatine honestly has very few low showings that were not circumstantial. For instance, people often reference his loss to Luke in a duel in Dark Empire; what they neglect to mention is that Leia and Anakin were repulsing Palpatine's powers by an application of Force Harmony. So he was not fighting at his peak then, and he defeated Luke in their first duel. More frequently, users mention Palpatine being shot in the back by Han Solo in Empire's End; the contextual circumstance they disingenuously ignore is the fact that Palpatine's clone bodies had been genetically sabotaged. When the Emperor was shot by Han, his body was so weak due to the genetic tampering that he could barely stand on his own, and it was his plan to die anyway so that he could release his spirit and possess Anakin. Really, I would say Palpatine's ability to fight armies; defeat Maul in a duel while holding back tremendously; wreck Maul and Savage while holding back; quickly kill Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto; fight a monumentally amped Mace Windu to an impasse (I also am of the opinion Sidious held back against Mace, but even if not, Mace's fighting state was augmented to preposterous levels in that fight); fight evenly with and outmatch Yoda; and beat Luke overshadow circumstantial low showings. His track record in normal situations is more impressive than not.

@Owie said:

@Silver2467: Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I like your approach of matching up styles. I especially like your idea about Fisto and how he might have been able to use Shii-Cho against Sidious' seemingly-multiple lightsabers in ROTS. In fact, Sidious does have 2 sabers in this battle (which I took from his Clone Wars fight against Maul and Opress this week), so it might actually be even more effective here.

Ah, I overlooked that in the OP. I agree with you then that that may work even better to Fisto's style.

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#35  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Silver2467:

@Owie said:

Sidious trounced Maul and Opress, but it did take a certain amount of time, which implies that with more help, a team could win.

In fairness, both the show and the novel Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy outlined fairly plainly that Sidious was holding back profusely. Near the beginning, he Force pushed Maul and Savage to a wall and left them pinned there; they only came down when Sidious allowed them down. After Savage died, the novel described how Sidious began gradually increasing his speed until he eventually started fighting so fast that Maul was unable to follow his movements and instead saw countless lightsaber strokes head toward him simultaneously, despite the fact that Sidious was only handling two blades (ShootingNova provided a quote of this on the previous page). If Sidious had chosen to, he could have fought that fast from the outset and left them no means of reacting to him (similar to what he did to Saesee and Agen in RotS).

Ah, OK. I saw the quote but didn't know it referred to the same storyline. Yes, it seemed clear from the quote that Maul was totally at his mercy, so I can interpret the scene as if he is just playing with them.

@Owie said:

The emperor has had moments of weakness and isn't totally undefeatable. For instance, while it's outside the scope the kind of fight in this thread, Sidious was taken out by a special gas attack in the Ghost Prison comic. And after all he was ultimately killed by Luke and (mostly) Vader.

That gas literally melted people from the inside out, and it killed everyone else in the palace. The fact that the Emperor could harness the Force to repel it at all is impressive. Regarding his death in RotJ, that was a prophesied death that Anakin entered Oneness to achieve. Palpatine honestly has very few low showings that were not circumstantial. For instance, people often reference his loss to Luke in a duel in Dark Empire; what they neglect to mention is that Leia and Anakin were repulsing Palpatine's powers by an application of Force Harmony. So he was not fighting at his peak then, and he defeated Luke in their first duel. More frequently, users mention Palpatine being shot in the back by Han Solo in Empire's End; the contextual circumstance they disingenuously ignore is the fact that Palpatine's clone bodies had been genetically sabotaged. When the Emperor was shot by Han, his body was so weak due to the genetic tampering that he could barely stand on his own, and it was his plan to die anyway so that he could release his spirit and possess Anakin. Really, I would say Palpatine's ability to fight armies; defeat Maul in a duel while holding back tremendously; wreck Maul and Savage while holding back; quickly kill Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto; fight a monumentally amped Mace Windu to an impasse (I also am of the opinion Sidious held back against Mace, but even if not, Mace's fighting state was augmented to preposterous levels in that fight); fight evenly with and outmatch Yoda; and beat Luke overshadow circumstantial low showings. His track record in normal situations is more impressive than not.

I certainly agree with the last statement in particular. I just wanted to point out that he has had, as you put it, at least some circumstantial low showings and is not totally omnipotent. What exactly does it mean for Anakin to have entered Oneness? I know the death was prophesied, but what did Anakin do to him, beyond tossing him in the pit? Or was it more a question of Anakin being able to ignore the Emperor's power?

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#36  Edited By Floopay

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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Mace Windu alone beat him, so yeah.

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#38  Edited By Silver2467

@Owie said:

I certainly agree with the last statement in particular. I just wanted to point out that he has had, as you put it, at least some circumstantial low showings and is not totally omnipotent.

Which is agreeable, and considering some of the comments in this thread, I can certainly understand the need to establish that point. I do think Sidious is being overestimated here.

@Owie said:

What exactly does it mean for Anakin to have entered Oneness? I know the death was prophesied, but what did Anakin do to him, beyond tossing him in the pit? Or was it more a question of Anakin being able to ignore the Emperor's power?

In The Unifying Force, Jacen mused that when Anakin returned to the light to save Luke, he surrendered to the Force to achieve a heightened unity with it. Oneness is a state wherein a Force sensitive no longer imposes conscious control of their actions; the Force itself literally guides them, moving the character for them or in some other fashion directing the character without their input. Oneness is very similar to a being dying and returning to the Force; once one with the Force, they will not longer impose their individual identity or choices any longer and instead will reuinite with the universe and life as a whole (except in the case of Force Ghosts, which is a technique specifically for the purpose of retaining one's identity). There are more details on Oneness, such as its relation to the light and dark side, but I would rather not derail the thread with those. Basically, Anakin entering Oneness means that he will succumb entirely to the Force and be a perfect conduit for it to channel through. Under that circumstance, Anakin would naturally be more than capable of killing Palpatine.

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#39  Edited By owie  Moderator

@Silver2467: Thanks for the info. That helps me put Palpatine's final moments into a more understandable context.

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#40  Edited By VegetaStark

@Silver2467: okay guy..i've said they are on the commentary of the DVD or blue ray i cannot find a clip of it online but its on the dvd where lucas says what i said he said

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#41  Edited By Guardian_

@VegetaStark said:

geroge lucas said himself that the only ones able to defeat sidius are; yoda, mace windu and anakin skywalker..so therefore everything else is moot to the argument...

mace could solo if it comes down to lightsaber fight

yoda would back him up with force powers

the end

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#42  Edited By Bane_of_sith

Mace is never beating sidious,,movie or EU version.

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#43  Edited By Guardian_

@Bane_of_sith said:

Mace is never beating sidious,,movie or EU version.

But he did beat him in the movie, EU is different but in the movie he did win.

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Bane_of_sith

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#44  Edited By Bane_of_sith

Sidious let mace think he had the upper hand in order to begin Annakins journey down the path of the dark side. By first proving his loyalty to palpatine he began the transformation,,,,by later destroying the padawans in the Jedi temple he pretty much solidified his role in the sith. It was all a ploy to lure annakin in to destroy mace and show he is ready to become a sith

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Silver2467

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#45  Edited By Silver2467

@VegetaStark: Then find the clip on your DVD or blu-ray. I never asked for an online clip; I want you to quote Lucas's statement and then inform me which scene of the commentary he said it, because as it stands, your evidence is severely lacking.

@Owie: Sure thing.

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Bane_of_sith

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#46  Edited By Bane_of_sith

It's clear that was his intent in the film as well..palpatine even says.."I'm too weak"..than once annakin strikes.. He stops playing possum and screams "power,,unlimited power" it was a ploy to get annakin to take out mace and prove his loyalty

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ShootingNova

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#47  Edited By ShootingNova

@VegetaStark: Most of what is on the TOR forums is fanboyism or ignorance.

Again, I want proof. Show me him actually saying that. Your word and a link to a non-canon debate is not enough. Give me a clip of him saying that, or at least quote him and the section where it came from.

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ShootingNova

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#48  Edited By ShootingNova

@Owie: Sheer numbers is sufficient for either round, but it is much easier in round 1 with both Yoda and Windu. Add in a couple more and that should suffice.

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Silver2467

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#49  Edited By Silver2467

@ShootingNova said:

@Owie: Sheer numbers is sufficient for either round, but it is much easier in round 1 with both Yoda and Windu. Add in a couple more and that should suffice.

I might be misreading you here, and if I am, just tell me. But prohibiting Mace changes very little; prohibiting Yoda does. Mace would just constitute as one of the "sheer numbers" needed; he is hardly any more or less valuable than any other distinctly powerful Jedi from that era. He could be useful alongside several others due to his agility and the offensive nature of Vaapad, but that renders him no more effective than many of the characters I listed on my team. On the other hand, stipulating against Yoda's inclusion makes a difference because Yoda, unlike the other Jedi of his era, actually possesses the speed and power to pose a challenge to Sidious on his own.

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#50  Edited By VegetaStark

@ShootingNova: boy you getting on my nerves you dont seem to understand thats its on the COMMENTARY!!!!!!