Both combatants start within 500 feet of each other
The location is unpopulated
Neutral location unknown to both
Challenge a Viner Rules:
For your vote to be counted at least one reason must be provided and it must not be based off the character, only the debater.
Regular posting, or making comments is perfectly fine. However, you are not permitted to interfere in the debate, post scans, nor start any separate debates with another user.
If you must correct either of us on a point or ask us a question regarding the debate, it would be appreciated if you would resort to asking us in a P.M.
@lukehero: Alright, if everything looks good, and nothing needs to be changed, then feel free to go for it. As discussed, I will post a little something within the next day or so!
Rouge(That's right kiddies in their most recent brawl during Avengers vs X-Men she was whopping dat power stealing a$$, till a Phoenix Force Magik came and rescued Rouge)
@lukehero: Alright, gathered my scans, and I feel I am good to start my intro.
Aspen Matthews
Now, I am pretty positive that there are quite a few Ms. Marvel fans that must be thinking I am just plain out of my mind here. Aspen is one of these characters that sure, a few people know a little about, and with that little bit of knowledge, they feel that there is no way in hades that she can take down a powerhouse such as Ms. Marvel. Well boys and girls, I am going to see if I can change a few minds, and educate a few of you on just what this little hottie is capable of.
This first post will be fairly short and sweet, with just the basics. Yes, there will be glaring holes in a few things based on what has been presented so far, it will probably leave many of you scratching your heads as to just how she could pull a win here, but hey, it's just an intro post. We'll get into the good stuff as we get into this little debate.
The Origin Stuff:
Aspen is a unique being in the world, the only person to be born of a union of the races of the Blue and the Black. As such, she has the ability to manipulate water and energy for a variety of effects. Aspen is also a world renowned marine biologist, and of course a bit of a genius.
Water Manipulation:
Both of the races Aspen is descended from are beings that live deep in the ocean's depths. From her Blue heritage, Aspen gained the abilities and powers of an Elite Blue. As such, she can manipulate water:
She can tag multiple foes with pinpoint accuracy and can cover large areas with her attacks:
Did I also mention that she can turn into water form?
And she can even take flight if she needs to:
Not to mention some various other applications:
Energy Manipulation:
From her Black heritage, Aspen has learned to produce and manipulate energy. She can fire off energy blasts:
And she can also take an energy form:
Durability:
Aspen as you can imagine is also pretty darn durable. She would have to be if her body can survive the pressures and temperatures of the deep, as can be seen when she travels to a city way, way down in the ocean's depths:
She has also tanked hits from tonners and kept on going (bear in mind that Tormo as shown in one of the scans has been shown to do things like casually toss an army jeep):
Now sure, these guys may not exactly be on the level of Carol, but it shows she knows how to take a hit=)
Combat Proficiency:
You may be thinking that they probably didn't train combat techniques in her marine biology classes...and you would be right in that thought. Good thing that Aspen has in fact been trained in combat by Killian. She learned how to use her powers for destructive purposes, and learned how to use weapons and so on.
While she may not be taking down Batman in pure hand to hand, with her powers in the mix, she is more than a match for the majority of foes. Take for instance, Killian's daughter, Kiani. Kiani is an Elite Blue who has trained since childhood, and is considered a penultimate warrior. She has taken down some top names in the Fathom universe, and with her combination of power and skill, Aspen manages to keep pace with and beat her (two separate fights shown below):
She can definitely hold her own against skilled and trained opponents.
Speed and Reaction:
Aspen is no slouch in the speed and reaction department. Her alternate forms make for a great defensive measure in combat:
Also, you get her in the water, and she can definitely put on some speed, such as keeping up with dolphins:
She can also propel herself through the water:
And while I am no mathematical genius, the next scans lead me to believe that while in the water, she can more than likely match Ms. Marvel's flight speed:
And the mean "streets" of Venice give her plenty of travel opportunity. Ms. Marvel may own the air, but the water is all Aspen's.
In Conclusion:
Alright, that is enough for a start. There are some things that I am definitely going to have to address, since what I have presented so far, in no way guarantees Aspen's victory. Basically all I have done is lay out the groundwork, and hopefully have given you a pretty good idea of what Aspen is about and capable of. What I can say is that while Ms. Marvel may be pretty durable and hard to damage, Aspen has options to become hard to damage, has options for fast travel and taking the fight to the air if needs be, and has plenty of water for offensive and defensive purposes.
Alright, the floor is yours my friend...though before I go...mandatory hawtness in bound:
Very Nice, very well done. RESPECT. I love this girl...why do we have to fight? Why can't be friends :).
Let's Address some things though.
First, your girl is fast...But Ms Marvel is ridiculously fast. In these scans she is moving faster than the eye can see in an extreme blur. She clocks in at Mach-3 has her base level speed. Mach 3 is Supersonic. If she needs to, Ms Marvel can burn off extra energy and move at Re-Entry Speeds.
What are Re-Entry Speeds? Well because Ms Marvel needs to be able to fly in & out of Space. She needs to be able to exit & reenter the Earth's Atmosphere.
Next if Aspen is unfortunate enough to try any energy attacks then she is going to power up Ms Marvel, giver her more energy for blasts, higher levels of super strength, and Aspen may even cause her own death & be sucked into nothingness as Klaw was.
Aspen has had some training, but Ms Marvel is Training Goddess that has trained & worked with a ridiculous amount of Super Teams;
Avengers
Guardians of The Galaxy
Invaders
Lady Liberators
Operation Lighting Storm
SHIELD
Secret Avengers
Star Jammers
The Initiative
And more...
Next point, lets get to that water form. What temperature does water boil at? 100 C. So unless the laws of physics have been suspended. Ms Marvel will point her Photon Blasts at her and heat up the water and she will evaporate.
Not that Aspen will have a chance to change to water form, as Ms Marvel will speed blitz her & knock her out with an energy punch. In her scan with Spiderwoman she even remarks how she loves to speed up and knock out an opponent out before they know what happened.
Ms Marvel isn't just strong, she is ridiculously strong when she MAXES out. Here she breaks a armed chair that is made of a Adamatium/Vibrainum Composite by powering herself up. The chair is supposed to be a "Power Inhibitor". Due to Ms Marvel's molecular control, she can defy that.
This is a random encounter, but Ms Marvel is very much used to dealing with Super Humans. It won't take her long to adjust to any of Aspen's super powers as I have already explained that about Aspen's water & energy attacks being turned against her. If she tries to drown Ms Marvel, that won't work either as Ms Marvel can go long periods without breathing which is shown in her travels through space.
Ms Marvel is used to fighting Under Water Foes, as she has defeated Tiger Shark(100 Toner Namor villain, who beat up Namor & Wolverine)
You really need to know you're not drowning Ms Marvel? Was she just talking under water?
If Aspen tries anything, water, energy, speed, using her intellect...it will be turned against her.
Even if she tries to do something like pull the water from Ms Marvel's body...that won't work either. Mrs Marvel has Kree physiology not human. Therefore the rule of a human body being 50%-70% water does not apply at all to her. She can also defeat that by using her molecular control & protect herself with energy shields.
I just noticed my energy force field scan was missing from my last post. Well, here it is. Ms Marvel even commits how easy it is to make them.
In Conclusion Aspen is an awesome character with a very diverse power set. But, she is running into a power truck called MS MARVEL.
Let's Look at some more cool pictures of Ms Marvel. Look she takes down a whole squad of HAMMER agents & then busts Iron Patriot's armor with a number of speed punches.
Scan 1: Marvel Knocks Out A Villain, 2: She Fights Tiger Shark Again, 3:Describes How Invulnerable She Is, 4: Uses Speed To Dodge A Laser Beam, 5: Beats Down Another Wave of Super Powered Skrulls
“Very Nice, very well done. RESPECT. I love this girl...why do we have to fight? Why can't be friends :). “
Well, they can't be friends because two bored dudes decided to make them fight=)
Anyhow, nice response brother. Now let's up my game a bit...
More Speed and Reflexes:
“First, your girl is fast...But Ms Marvel is ridiculously fast.”
Speed, speed, speed...always seems to be an issue. Mach 3, that's pretty darn fast, and one would need to have at least supersonic reaction timing to stand a chance. Good thing she is fighting in the atmosphere, and achieving re-entry speeds isn't an instantaneous process, though I am doubtful that is going to be her first tactic. It's not like she is charging Iron Man, the Hulk, or any number of imposing, armored, or known super durable foes. This is a petite, young woman she will be looking at.
Now, I can argue Aspen's travel speed in the water being a good match, but travel speed doesn't equate to combat speed. Good news is, Aspen has consistently shown the ability to react to supersonic speeds. She may have a low showing or two (much like I am more than positive Ms. Marvel does as well, along with every other comic character in existence), but her reaction timing is pretty darn consistent.
Let's start on the slower end here. One of the more common missiles fired from a military helicopter per my research is the hellfire. That thing travels roughly mach 1.3, and here we have Aspen reacting to one:
How about we up it to a missile fired from a fighter jet? Shrike missiles can achieve up to mach 1.5, and the ever famous sidewinder missile can achieve up to mach 2.5 by the sources I can find. These missiles were fired before Aspen saw them, and yet in the time she finally did see them, which is when they were basically on top of her, she was able to pull her and Canon beneath the waves, out of range of the blast:
Now this next one, I had a pretty difficult time finding a good equivalent for, since this is advanced tech firing these missiles. I went with a shoulder fired missile system, and read up on the Stinger missile which has been in service with the US since at least 1981. These bad boys can travel roughly mach 2.2. So now check out this last second reaction timing feat
Let's give you some more reaction timing, shall we? One of the common military rounds is the Nato 5.56. These little bad boys definitely break the sound barrier at roughly 3100 feet per second when fired from a military rifle (mach 3 only being 3375 feet per second). Aspen consistently shows the needed speed to react to the little buggers:
It should also be noted, that while you may question how is she going to tag something that can go mach 3? Let's point out, she was able to make water react fast enough (and it should be pointed out she was also able to harden it, making it bullet proof) to stop supersonic projectiles. I'd say she can make the water move when she needs to. Not to mention that she has tagged fighter jets:
And again, she can cover large areas if she needs to:
And to reiterate on her water shielding, it is bullet proof, and explosion proof (should be more than capable of tanking some hits):
“Not that Aspen will have a chance to change to water form, as Ms Marvel will speed blitz her & knock her out with an energy punch. In her scan with Spiderwoman she even remarks how she loves to speed up and knock out an opponent out before they know what happened.”
She has the speed to respond to supersonic attacks, and I doubt Ms. Marvel will commonly go re-entry speeds right off the bat in combat=)
More Energy Manipulation:
“Next if Aspen is unfortunate enough to try any energy attacks then she is going to power up Ms Marvel, giver her more energy for blasts, higher levels of super strength, and Aspen may even cause her own death & be sucked into nothingness as Klaw was.”
While your concern is touching my friend, I don't think we have anything to worry about here. This point kind of ties in with another point, so, let me hit that one up, and I will tie them both together.
“Next point, lets get to that water form. What temperature does water boil at? 100 C. So unless the laws of physics have been suspended. Ms Marvel will point her Photon Blasts at her and heat up the water and she will evaporate.”
This isn't something I think Aspen really has to worry about. This is the kind of character that kind of transcends the need for a physical form. Ever hear of the Blue Sun? No? Well, let me break this down for you. The Blue Sun was a creation of Blue technology that was powered in part thanks to Aspen's water and energy manipulation:
Yes, she was in a machine and was in the middle of performing nuclear fusion. After doing this several times, Killian was able to power satellites that brought about the Blue Sun. The Blue Sun was capable of evaporating and pushing back a nice area of the ocean, and was melting through the Earth's crust:
Of course, Killian being the evil guy that he is, tossed Aspen's body into the Blue Sun, disintegrating her body:
It was a minor setback as you will see, and of course, she creates her own little Blue Sun effect, and returns the favor to Killian:
She then steps into the Blue Sun itself, channels it's energies taking out the satellites and satellites charging stations, and then reforms her own body:
Of course, she has replicated the Blue Sun effect on other occasions, such as taking down Kiani:
And has done it to take down a city busting attack that the Black were about to use:
Beyond just the Blue Sun effect, let's take a look at the size of this giant beastie:
She is able to one shot two at same time:
With her control over energy and energy output, I am doubtful she will go the way of Klaw, especially if she can channel the Blue Sun, and reconstitute her body afterwards. Not to mention, I know for a fact that Ms. Marvel can be overloaded. Norman has done it before, and with the energy that Aspen is capable of putting out (not to mention she has whole body of water that she can release the energy from), I see no reason why she couldn't do the same. Not that energy attacks are her only option here.
As you can see though, a little water evaporation isn't going to do much to Aspen, and trying to drain her may not be the best option for Ms. Marvel, especially since overloading someone is not a new tactic to Aspen. Here she is overloading someone to help them evict an unwanted guest:
The Other Stuff:
“Aspen has had some training, but Ms Marvel is Training Goddess that has trained & worked with a ridiculous amount of Super Teams”
And while that is all good and well, Aspen's training and experience coupled with her powers make her more than a match for Ms. Marvel here.
“This is a random encounter, but Ms Marvel is very much used to dealing with Super Humans. It won't take her long to adjust to any of Aspen's super powers as I have already explained that about Aspen's water & energy attacks being turned against her. If she tries to drown Ms Marvel, that won't work either as Ms Marvel can go long periods without breathing which is shown in her travels through space.”
Well, as I said, her attacks aren't getting turned against her. While she may have dealt with some watery foes and superhumans, none of them quite have the unique powerset of my girl Aspen here. And drowning? Nah, we have more creative things to try than that. But I will say, older scans of her talking underwater aside, modern times show she actually does need air. She may be able to hold her breath for a good amount of time, but she does need air eventually:
And I do believe that it was the scene right before this that she thinks to herself that she didn't take a big enough breath in before flying into space to fight some bad guy. What happens if Aspen does a little something before she realizes she needs to take a giant gulp of air in and hold it?
“If Aspen tries anything, water, energy, speed, using her intellect...it will be turned against her.”
Haven't seen enough proof of that. From where I am sitting, the advantage is still on Aspen's side here.
“Even if she tries to do something like pull the water from Ms Marvel's body...that won't work either. Mrs Marvel has Kree physiology not human. Therefore the rule of a human body being 50%-70% water does not apply at all to her.”
Unless Kree are some sort of rock or metal based lifeform, then I beg to differ. Water is part and parcel of the flesh and blood package (and I have seen scans of bleeding Kree, I have seen blood drawn on Ms. Marvel, as well the fact that she relies on air to breath, which shows her physiology still being fairly human), not to mention that Ms. Marvel isn't full Kree from what I have read. Regardless, this is a subject that will be left for another time, since this post is already getting to be a bit too long as is.
“She can also defeat that by using her molecular control & protect herself with energy shields.”
The only thing I have ever seen with Ms. Marvel and molecular control is being able to do stuff with her costume. With Aspen's ability to reform and heal her own body, it would be a difficult tactic to try regardless. As for energy shields...unless she clears all the moisture out of the air between her and that shield, Aspen can still get her. Yes, Aspen can use the water in the air, which makes it a might bit difficult to dodge such an attack (technically the last scan was Hawke's doing, but Aspen's water control is way beyond his, and as such, is fully beyond capable of it). In the second scan, the first water use you see is actually a shield as she is blocking his tentacle type weapon attacks, the water surrounding the target was drawn from the moisture in the air (for clarification):
In Closing:
Alright, I did have a few more points I wanted to bring out, but I think I dropped enough intel into the mix here. I'll save some stuff for another post or two down the road. The way I see it, Ms. Marvel's base speed isn't too fast for Aspen to deal with, having reacted to supersonic attacks. Aspen also has the ability to overload Ms. Marvel, can cover large areas with her attacks, and going water or energy form or creating her own shields, can defend against Ms. Marvel's attacks. If Ms. Marvel creates her own shields, Aspen can still use the moisture in the air to get to her.
@neongamewave: Glad you like it brother. I'll be busting out some more little used/known characters against the well knowns here soon=)
It was tough finding the right opponent for Aspen here, but Ms. Marvel has the benefit of being a bit more than just a brick. She has some versatility to her that should make for a good debate (and has so far).
Alright, let's make this very clear. Aspen has speed, but Ms Marvel has ridiculous blurring combat speed. She body slams Rouge so fast she is just a trail of light in the 2nd scan. Speed blitzing is in character for her & will be her fist tactic. As she clearly explains to Spiderwoman that she loves to knock out an enemy before they can know what happened.
The Blue Sun
"Yes, she was in a machine and was in the middle of performing nuclear fusion."
OK, exactly where in this random encounter will she have time to make that Blue Sun effect? Even she does, it's not problem as I will show.
Ms Marvel & Energy & Norman Osborn
Yes Osborn was able to overload & capture her...with massive amounts of prep & resources that Blue will not have. Osborn was trying to recruit Ms Marvel to the Dark Avengers during Dark Reign. She told him to screw himself. He sets her up along with Dark Reign Ms Marvel aka Moonstone.
If you notice in that last scan Osborn had her doped up & tied down to an Adamantium/Vibrinum Power Inhibitor Chair. He had prep for taking down Ms Marvel way in advance. Yet, do to her molecular & energy control she defies that anyway & does this. She gets out of the chair, takes down a squad of HAMMER SOLDIERS & beats the brakes off of Iron Patriot(Osborn) until he calls for Ms Moonstone. Ms Marvel even tells Osborn she is powering up & getting stronger by the minute.
***Sorry the scans are in the wrong order.***
More on Ms Marvel's Molecular Control
In these sets of scans, she separates Mac Gargon Venom from his suit with ease. The suit naturally fights backs & grabs the nearest most powerful host nearby, which is Ms Marvel. After that, the suit takes over her body & starts to enjoy her powers. She uses her molecular control to separate herself from the Venom Symbiotite. So her minor monocular control can do a lot more than just make her costume.
****Sorry if these are in the wrong order.****
She has complete control of her mind & body. Yon-Rogg returns as a Kree Supervillain with incredible power boosts. With his new powers he tries to enter Ms Marvel's mind & body...she locates him & pushes him out.
Breathing Air
Yes Ms Marvel needs air, but she can survive with out it for long periods of time as she flies around space & can go underwater. That specif scan you posted will be taken out of context if you don't see the whole picture. During a big battle with a Space Creature she was; A. Tired, B. Had Burned Up Her Own Air back in a fight at the warehouse, C. Even remarks how she forgot to take a deep breath, D. Still over comes that any way & fights the creature in space, pwns the alien Cru(A very powerful member of the Brood Race) & lives through it.
She has no problem with holding her breath in space while in combat. Also her speed blitzing someone while going into Reentry Speed mode is something I have already shown. She speed blitzed Skrull Hulk & pushed him into space. Once again she loves to speed blitz.
While she can't BFR Aspen into Space(which is why I requested to take BFR off the table in this fight...that would make things too easy for Ms Marvel & wouldn't be very fun). She can grab Aspen & burn her up while in the upper atmosphere.
Energy Attacks, once again Aspen's energy attacks are useless & will only power up Ms Marvel & maker her stronger. Aspen is not overloading Ms Marvel...not in least bit.
I hate to go scan crazy, but I want to make it very clear.
Here we have Warren Traveler sorcerer that is above Dr. Strange level & he has even prepped for Ms Marvel before their fight. During their battle he uses massive amounts of energy attacks to try & beat Ms Marvel. Then he steals some of Dr. Strange's Mojo & still can't beat Ms Marvel. In the end Dr. Strange needs Ms Marvel's help to redirect the energy and beat Warren Traveler.
Aspen packs a punch, she isn't packing above Dr. Strange level energy attacks.
Ms Marvel Kree Biology
From the Marvel Database Wiki http://marvel.wikia.com/Kree
Biology
Kree philology originally developed through heavier gravity, higher nitrogen-to-oxygen air content, and a form of dependency centered around the Cotati (a highly intelligent and extremely mature species of telepaths in-tune with nature). Though as intelligent the Kree's were ignorant eventually ignoring nature, forging towards technology advancement then millennia of War.
Outwardly the Kree resemble humans, with little exception through skin color or modified genetics. Denser skin with increase muscles flexibility give the Kree endurance, durability, and stamina-- twice the level of humans. They also have "duplicates" of several internal organs and usually require more nitrogen to breathe comfortably on earth.
The Kree were an evolutionarily stagnant race. This was due to a single member of the Kree race attempting to gain control of The Crystal of Ultimate Vision[3]. This un-named Kree found the crystal, but attempted to use it to become akin to a god, with powers as of those of the Phoenix Force. As punishment, the crystal "genetically froze their evolution in place" allowing the rest of creation to pass them by.
In an attempt to further their development, some Kree bred with other species, producing the "pink-skinned" Kree, who are similar in appearance to Caucasian humans. These pinks (also called "whites") eventually outnumbered the blue-skin Kree.
So while Ms Marvel appears human...she is not Human, she is a nitrogen based life form, not water(Oxygen) based. Kree bodies are adapted to environmental characteristics on Hala that are un-Earthlike.
However, if Aspen goes to water form, she is still H2O. Ms Marvel will heat her up with photon blasts & make her evaporate.
Because of Venice's extremely polluted waters. When Ms Marvel heats up the water, it will create a massive chemical bomb, explode, & blow Aspen to smithereens.
Articles on Venice Water Pollution; http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1990-05-02/news/9001060027_1_canals-venice-adriatic-waters
Training: Last Point For Now...Sorry if I am posting to much :), But I am up against a veteran debater.
Aspen has some very nice training experience. It is nothing on the level that Ms Marvel has endured. Not only has she worked with tons of different Super Teams, but she has even fought against beings as powerful as Thanos(2nd Scan), and trained personally under Captain America & Spiderman.
Captain America even says she has some of the greatest combat skills he has ever seen.
In conclusion no matter how you slice it. Ms Marvel is going to defeat Aspen.
Anyhow, this one will be a bit wordy, but there are points I have been putting off, and want to get them in there, while responding to your points. So, here we go:
“OK, exactly where in this random encounter will she have time to make that Blue Sun effect? Even she does, it's not problem as I will show.”
Considering I have shown you several instances already where she has done what I have termed as a little Blue Sun effect I'd say she'd do it if and whenever needed, not to mention she doesn't have to be in a form that Carol can even hit. This doesn't require prep in any way, shape, or form. I have shown where she has done it to Killian, to Kiani, to take down the attack of the Black...all of that without any extra time or prep.
Bit of an Overload
“Yes Osborn was able to overload & capture her...with massive amounts of prep & resources that Blue will not have.”
Massive amounts of prep and resources Aspen won't need. You have already seen Aspen overload a baddie, and again, recheck the scans, her energy abilities require no prep, no set up, no human form needed. If Carol tries to drain her, it would be a massive mistake, as I have shown.
The point is, Aspen's energy control is far beyond the likes of Klaw, and she has the ability to overload Carol, since it has been done to her. If Osborn did it once when he captured her, then it has happened at least 3 times, as she also seemingly died from an overload in Ms Marvel 37 thanks to a battle Norman set up, and she was once overloaded by what I think was called the Collective:
Moral of the story: She tries to drain Aspen, she can and will get overloaded. Which is really the whole point of the overload discussion.
“In these sets of scans, she separates Mac Gargon Venom from his suit with ease. The suit naturally fights backs & grabs the nearest most powerful host nearby, which is Ms Marvel. After that, the suit takes over her body & starts to enjoy her powers. She uses her molecular control to separate herself from the Venom Symbiotite. So her minor monocular control can do a lot more than just make her costume. ”
And while that is great, it won't help her here against Aspen. Aspen isn't a symbiote to be worn my friend. It's not like she has shown ability on the level of Molecule Man, or even Dr. Manhattan with his few showings.
“She has complete control of her mind & body. Yon-Rogg returns as a Kree Supervillain with incredible power boosts. With his new powers he tries to enter Ms Marvel's mind & body...she locates him & pushes him out.”
And while impressive, it's not the kind of attack that Aspen can perform on Ms. Marvel. An energy overload isn't an attack that takes over someone mind and body that you can just eject them. These would be two different mechanisms and forms of attack. Now to be clear, I am not stating that the energy overload is the sole road to a victory here. I do think that if she were to try and drain Aspen though, it would be a huge mistake, and a possible victory for Aspen based on Carol's history.
“She has no problem with holding her breath in space while in combat.”
She still has to breath and her body relies on oxygen. She even brings it up in the panel about not taking in enough oxygen. That doesn't mean that she can't drown, or can't pass out from lack of oxygen. It means she can hold her breath for longer than most people would be able to, but still requires oxygen at some point, and her body and it's systems relies on it. What's to stop Aspen from wrapping her head in water, and just simply going to a form Ms. Marvel can't harm until she passes out?
The answer is: Nothing.
The scan I showed is perfectly in context. There is nothing out of context about it, and I do thank you for posting the previous scene, because it works with what I am saying. Your scans defintiely reinforce what I have been saying all along: she needs oxygen. She was in an area where she couldn't get enough oxygen, and was suffering because of it...why? Because she needs oxygen, needs it to breath, and directly states that oxygen is what she lacking.
“Also her speed blitzing someone while going into Reentry Speed mode is something I have already shown. She speed blitzed Skrull Hulk & pushed him into space. Once again she loves to speed blitz.”
I never said she doesn't love to speed blitz. Now tell me one thing, does this look like a Skrull Hulk that she needs to kill (?):
Nope. Looks like a petite young woman. Are you going to tell me, that a morals on Carol, is going to just right off the bat, without any real reasoning, suddenly go Mach 5, and hit this girl with everything she has, and risk killing her, when she doesn't know who or what this girl is, she doesn't know this girl's durability, and a knock out is a winning option? Is this within Carol's morals? Is this how Carol handles every fight?
I may not know a whole lot about Carol, and while she may have no qualms about killing skrulls, I find it hard to believe that someone who runs with Cap does something like that consistently against every foe. What I believe is that while she may be able to achieve speeds of up to Mach 5, combat use of that speed is probably a bit more rare, and more for extreme cases or foes that are proven to be able to handle such attacks. I believe that most instances of her speed blitzes are more in the arena of mach 3 or so, which is sufficient enough to take down most foes.
“While she can't BFR Aspen into Space(which is why I requested to take BFR off the table in this fight...that would make things too easy for Ms Marvel & wouldn't be very fun). She can grab Aspen & burn her up while in the upper atmosphere.“
Here's the thing, it takes literally no time at all for Aspen to change forms. She has reacted at supersonic speeds, and even if in the odd instance that Carol manages to grab Aspen and fly up...this isn't an instantaneous trip. She still has to get up to the upper atmosphere, and Aspen will have changed forms. You can't bear hug water no matter how tightly you squeeze it. But again...Aspen has reformed herself from complete disintegration as I have shown. So just what would that tactic accomplish in the very odd and off chance she got Aspen up there?
“Aspen packs a punch, she isn't packing above Dr. Strange level energy attacks.”
I saw nothing in those scans that would indicate anyone ever once tried to overload her or that she was fully absorbing magical attacks, or even at risk of overload. Sure, he didn't beat her, but Warren sure as heck had her on the ropes and it took a double team to take him down from what I have seen. There is nothing in those scans that states she can't be overloaded. Warren smacked her around, blasted her, and sure as heck affected her. There was no improvement of strength and power on her part from the magical energy, and she even states that magic is one of those things that can usually kill her and usually she does not absorb. From what I saw, she didn't try any absorption until she tried to help Strange redirect the energy, which wasn't her taking on the full brunt of Strange's magical might and energy.
Aspen has shown to have more than enough energy output and control to be able to overload Ms. Marvel (which has happened 2 times I have directly seen, and once stated by you), and if she doesn't have the energy, she has a whole ocean to draw upon. She doesn't have to pack the punch of Strange's magical energy attacks. She just has to use what she already has, because I have seen nothing that would seem to indicate she needs anything more.
Controlling the Water Inside
“So while Ms Marvel appears human...she is not Human, she is a nitrogen based life form, not water(Oxygen) based. Kree bodies are adapted to environmental characteristics on Hala that are un-Earthlike.”
Now, the Kree biology lesson is great and all, but Carol is not full Kree. She is a hybrid. She doesn't look like a Kree. She doesn't require nitrogen to breath like a Kree. She is again, a hybrid. She breathes and needs oxygen, she bleeds as seen in a few of your scans. I can even find scans of her eating and drinking, which I can provide on request, but they are kind of lackluster to be showing in a battle forum. I get the angle you are trying to play up, but it just doesn't work in this instance. There is nothing pointing to the idea that she is so different biologically as to not need water in her body. Everything points to her functioning more or less as a human on most levels.
I was going to save this bit, but since we are here, yes, Aspen can control the water in a person's body, and there is no real defense for it, unless you are some silicon based life form, which Carol is not. An early scan shows her actually killing a man:
But from a bio, it kind of expands on the idea that she actually has some range with the ability (an older bio before she could change forms or had even shown half the ability she has displayed):
Not to mention what she can do to someones insides with her manipulation, such as when she needed to expose a parasite to open air (bear in mind, she doesn't have to actually touch the source of water to affect it):
There is really nothing stopping her from temporarily removing the water from Carol's brain long enough for her to pass out, and taking the win via KO.
Explosions, Healing, and Energy Channeling
“However, if Aspen goes to water form, she is still H2O. Ms Marvel will heat her up with photon blasts & make her evaporate. Because of Venice's extremely polluted waters. When Ms Marvel heats up the water, it will create a massive chemical bomb, explode, & blow Aspen to smithereens.”
Again, not happening. Aspen can reconstitute her form from complete disintegration, has channeled the Blue Sun, and even worked nuclear fusion. There is nothing this boiling water theory will achieve here other than Ms Marvel giving up because Aspen keeps reforming. So the evaporation bit, and the being blown to smithereens bit is not going to fly.
Let's focus on the point that they are around water. Right now, I'll show you Aspen getting hit by an explosion while in human form after she had been in an environment where the moisture was being drained out of it to weaken her:
Note the lack of actual damage to her durable body.
You know what it took to bring her back? A dip in the water:
You know what will still be all around them? Water.
But heck, Carol's photon blasts are energy, and Aspen can redirect energies as well (besides channeling and redirecting the Blue Sun as we have seen). She does this best while in her alternate forms:
Sure, it may not hurt Carol much (unless Aspen goes for the overload), but energy attacks at Aspen's alternate forms is not the way to go here.
“Last Point For Now...Sorry if I am posting to much :), But I am up against a veteran debater.”
Stop, you are making me blush. Post what you need to post brother, no worries=)
Yup, More Water Control:
“It is nothing on the level that Ms Marvel has endured.”
And still, with her training and foes she has faced, none are like Aspen. None of them function like her, none of them fight like her, and still Aspen can hang with some of the best in the Fathom universe. She has faced trained types, those with powers, superstrength and so on, and still manages to come out on top with a combination of power, skill, and quick thinking/intellect. She's not really the type to draw out a battle. When it comes to water, Aspen is a full on bad arse. Elite Blue are notoriously hard to kill and put down. I can bring more to the table on the healing angle, but I think the point should be clear with full body reconstitution after complete and utter disintegration as seen in my previous post.
Even if we were to ignore the energy angle completely, she can still take water and use it pierce and take down fighter jets. You've seen that. Now how about blowing a hole through a concrete wall:
Taking down steel security doors:
Not enough? What about taking out a military submarine:
Or one shotting an entire naval fleet:
Even more mundane things like using the water in a building's piping system for echolocation to successfully locate someone:
Along with everything I have shown, this should drive home the point of her level of control over water here. She doesn't even need an ocean to back her, she can draw moisture from the air, and can use the water within a persons body. Being able to break mach 5 is great and all, but it's a bit of crutch here in your debate, as from everything I have seen, in a morals on battle, it is not likely to come into play, and IF it did, by that time, Aspen would have already realized she is dealing with superior speed and will spend more time in an alternate form.
She has the reaction timing to deal with Carol's more common mach 3 speed, and when you couple that with the possibility of an overload, manipulation of the water inside Carol, using the moisture around Carol for a variety of effects (entrapment in a water based force field, water around her head, etc), and so forth and so on, I just see a variety of ways for Aspen to take the win over Carol, and the majority of them allow her to act in character, within her morals, and won't kill Carol...though killing isn't out of the question if pushed.
If this were a morals off battle, then it might be something if she blitzed Aspen full speed and full force without holding back before Aspen knew what hit her. But this is a morals on, in character kind of thing.
In Conclusion:
Alright my friend, at this point, I feel I have thrown out what I need to throw out. As I have stated in other CaVs, I really don't want this dragging into the arena of us steadily repeating ourselves, throwing out the same points using slightly different wording and so on. It is kind of counterproductive to the debate/CaV process. So, I'd say go ahead and throw out your response, I'll lightly make a “riposte”, and then if you want to throw out another post, feel free, or we can just call it for a vote.
I had hoped for an interesting debate, had hoped that Ms Marvel as defended by you would provide one, and I was not disappointed.
And to close out this post, more hawtness, since we cannot have Aspen being outdone:
Alright, I'll check this for typos in the morning. Good night=)
I'm not going to repeat anything I have said. I just wanted to say...morals on and in character Carol can be a cold hearted SOB. She worked for the Innovative after the Civil War & even had to round up many of her allies.
She has fought many pretty little female foes like alternate reality War Bird, Rouge, and others, so the fact that Aspen is a pretty little women is not going to bother her.
Cap being on the team is irrelevant as Wolverine & Moonkinght have both served on the Avengers & are both killers. Also Black Widow & Hawkeye are both assassins. Also...Cap is a solider & has killed plently of people.
Ms Marvel has a Danger Sense that will warn her of trouble. As soon as she notices Aspen she is going to know what's up.
I've already shown in scans how Ms Marvel controls her body through molecular control and that Aspen is not going to overload her. Ms Marvel has absorbed enough energy to light up Seattle as I have already shown in a scan above.
Speed isn't a crunch here...it's a matter of fact. Speed blitzing is one of her favorite moves. As soon as the fight starts off she will Speed blitz.
Also one thing you are missing is she doesn't have to kill Aspen...just knock her out. Two of the scans you posted show Aspen getting knocked the hell out..
Last point...those scans you posted of Ms Marvel being overloaded...that's when she was dealing with her Binary Phase...now if I'm not allowed to use Binary strengths? But, You get to use weaknesses?
Anyway she is past that & more recent forms of Ms Marvel like her vs Warren Traveler show that's not going to be a problem.
It was a fun debate...I don't think there is anything more to debate. I think we both covered everything. We can start to tag people & let the voters decide.
@wyldsong: :) Alright...it was a fun debate...tag people for voting when you are ready...
No problem bud. I am at work and am putting together my post in between runs. I'll do the close out/voting stuff once I get that post in.
It has been a good fun debate my friend. We got to work our brains here with creative arguments, and show of some scans of hot women. What more can you ask for? Anyhow, I’ll throw out that response post shortly, which will be scan lite with only a few new tidbits, and mainly my responses.
The issue with me using lesser known’s is that I have less resources to work with, but I think I brought some stuff of substance and quality to the table=).
@wyldsong: I like using characters that don't get used as much...as others
Well, that is why I was glad you chose Carol. You don't see her as often as some of these other characters. That's why I have been on a bit of a mission to CaV with lesser knowns. Whether I win or lose isn't really the point, it's just a matter of showing off what they are capable of.
@wyldsong: I like using characters that don't get used as much...as others
Well, that is why I was glad you chose Carol. You don't see her as often as some of these other characters. That's why I have been on a bit of a mission to CaV with lesser knowns. Whether I win or lose isn't really the point, it's just a matter of showing off what they are capable of.
@lukehero: Here we go, time to finish this up. It has been a fun ride, but like all rides, it has to end sometime=)
Sorry to break up your last post for my responses, but I put the comments I needed to respond to in the proper sections. I’ll try not to get too terribly wordy, but honestly, it’s a bad habit that I am not likely to break anytime soon.
Healing and Durability:
Before I go into attacking your points, let me go ahead and clear up some things with healing and durability here, then we’ll get to your points. I am not going to re-post all of those scans, but I feel it needs to pointed out and reiterated since it was brought up a few times: Aspen’s entire body was thrown into the Blue Sun, and it was completely and totally disintegrated. There was nothing left of her. She reformed herself in energy form, then you have seen the scans where she reformed her body. Elite Blue are notoriously hard to kill, yet in Aspen, we have someone who is also part Black.
Let me give you an example of why Elite Blue are hard to kill:
Now that is not Aspen, but considering she has already gone beyond that, I think you get the point. Get an Elite Blue near water, and they can heal pretty darn quickly. Another example for you is when a weapon that was made to fight Elite Blue was used on Aspen. It basically solidified and locked up her arm:
Again, a little water, and she was good to go. How about the time someone tried to freeze her:
Next panel, she heals right up (and you can see her deflecting a beam attack). It’s also a good durability feat, as the cold didn't drop her on the spot.
I have also shown you Aspen taking hits from tonners. Remember, she is exceedingly durable. Someone who can travel the crushing pressures of the ocean’s depths in her human form is not a weakling. Yes, an explosion dropped a weakened Aspen, but as you saw, there was no damage done to her body, and a dip in the water perked her right up. You also have to remember that she has also been in a machine performing nuclear fusion…and did it several times. If that doesn't speak volumes, then I don’t know what does.
She has proven durability, and killer healing=)
“Also one thing you are missing is she doesn't have to kill Aspen...just knock her out. Two of the scans you posted show Aspen getting knocked the hell out..”
Ah, but there is also some context to those scans, and at least one of them I already explained. A re-explanation on the first one: She was in an environment that they were draining the moisture out of to prevent her from using her powers. She was able to draw on enough moisture to get them out, and then gets hit by an explosion. She wasn't exactly at 100% there, and wasn't near the all-important water as I have explained above. So again, what is all around them this fight? Water.
The second scan you posted was before she had fully tapped into her powers, which pretty much was tapped into when she was thrown into the blue sun, and it was long before most of the other feats you have seen. So, let us not use a weaker version of the character to prove a point my friend (not to mention the fact that she wasn't near the water at that point; the Blue Sun had evaporated a huge area of water and was pushing back the rest).
Energy Manipulation:
No new scans here, just some closing thoughts on this. Channeling and redirecting the Blue Sun is an energy channeling feat that I am not sure Ms. Marvel would have survived without overload, not to mention that Aspen has pulled off blue sun type effects as seen in a few of my scans. I still contest that her control is a bit beyond what Carol has dealt with.
As for Warren...in the Warren scans, you have one scene where she passes a magical barrier of some sort. There is nothing in those scans that states how much she had to absorb, or that she was in danger of overload. All you get is her saying “Uhhh”, which is not surprising it hurt considering her thoughts on magic in the scene. There was no indication of just how much energy there was, nor any indication that there was fear of overload, just fear of magic. As well, when she helps Strange, again, she wasn't alone, and there wasn't any indication of just how much energy she took on, and no indication that she was going to be overloaded.
“I've already shown in scans how Ms Marvel controls her body through molecular control and that Aspen is not going to overload her. Ms Marvel has absorbed enough energy to light up Seattle as I have already shown in a scan above.”
That’s all good and well, but yes, Aspen would overload her. Aspen can disintegrate creatures, and performed nuclear fusion…not to mention the Blue Sun stuff, and here she has a whole body of water to draw on. Based on what I have seen, it is more than possible to overload Carol, and I have seen little to dissuade me of the notion that it couldn't happen.
Carol's molecular control hasn't prevented her from getting overloaded in past, not sure why it suddenly would now.
“Last point...those scans you posted of Ms Marvel being overloaded...that's when she was dealing with her Binary Phase...now if I'm not allowed to use Binary strengths? But, You get to use weaknesses?”
Binary is a more powerful form from what I understand. If that form can be overloaded with its increased power and ability, then it speaks volumes about what is possible with her base form. It is not like she suddenly becomes weak to energy when she is in binary mode, and I’d contest that if that enhanced form can be overloaded, that her base form is more than game for it. She has limits, regardless of her form.
Regardless, Aspen has other ways to win this, and overloading probably wouldn't come up unless Carol tried to give Aspen the Klaw treatment.
“Anyway she is past that & more recent forms of Ms Marvel like her vs Warren Traveler show that's not going to be a problem.”
I disagree, since she was tip toeing around the magic energy issue, was very cautious and wary about it, and well, I already did my breakdown of the situation above=)
Water Manipulation:
Not much to say here, other than her water control gives her options to take down Carol. She can harden water to the point to make force fields, one shot a naval fleet (she can strike with the force of some heavy hitters), take down fighter jets, and has even been shown to capture people and move them telekinesis style. She has plenty of options.
We can also add the control of the fluids on the inside of Carol’s body; but let’s expand on that bit, and give me something to talk about here. Carol is shown to be human for all intents and purposes as discussed in a post above (a human altered to be half Kree), and as such, when she breathes air into her lungs, that air will get taken up by blood cells, transported through her circulatory system, and oxygenate her body. There is no indication that it wouldn't, and all signs point her body systems functioning more or less like a normal human.
Sure, whatever happened to her gave her powers. Sure, she can hold her breath for a long time. But you still have the indicators that her body requires human things, like air and water. There is nothing stopping Aspen from doing just enough to make Carol pass out. She has more than shown that she has the control needed to do it.
“Ms Marvel has a Danger Sense that will warn her of trouble. As soon as she notices Aspen she is going to know what's up.”
And yet she can’t defend from a lot of what Aspen can do, not to mention she and other people with danger sense type powers aren't immune to getting hit. You can’t dodge having the liquids on your insides messed with, and how do you dodge something like this (?):
And I will re-post this one last time:
Speed and Reaction:
I've shown several times over that Aspen can react to supersonic attacks, which is more than enough for Carol’s normal supersonic speed.
“Speed isn't a crunch here...it's a matter of fact. Speed blitzing is one of her favorite moves. As soon as the fight starts off she will Speed blitz.”
I have to disagree. It is crutch for the sake of this debate. I can find plenty of scans of Carol not speedblitzing right off the bat. I do believe she can and will do it, but see the portion below for my expanded thoughts on that.
To Kill or Not to Kill:
“She has fought many pretty little female foes like alternate reality War Bird, Rouge, and others, so the fact that Aspen is a pretty little women is not going to bother her.”
And while that is all good and well, this is someone she doesn't know, has no beef with, and has no idea of her capabilities and durability. While she may have fought ladies before, I find it a hard pill to swallow that she is just going to go all out on the first attack for no reason and go for the kill. It’s not the fact that this is a pretty woman, it’s the fact that I am highly disbelieving that her morals are going to allow that.
I don’t think she is afraid to fight or get down and dirty just because it is a girl=)
“Cap being on the team is irrelevant as Wolverine & Moonkinght have both served on the Avengers & are both killers. Also Black Widow & Hawkeye are both assassins. Also...Cap is a solider & has killed plently of people.”
And they don’t just randomly or indiscriminately kill people. They do it when pushed, or if they have a reason. If they were put in this battle, neither of these characters with their morals would just go straight up and gut her. There is a difference between being willing to kill, and being a murderer. If Carol just killed everyone she faced, then I highly doubt Cap would keep her around, because again, there is a huge monumental difference between being willing to kill and killing indiscriminately.
None of the people you listed kill indiscriminately. They all again are willing to kill. Huge difference there, and they all have fought plenty of foes that they did not kill.
If a full force mach 5 speed blitz were her go to tactic in every fight, then there would be a lot of dead bad guys on the streets, and a few dead heroes (Rogue and quite a few others). Carol is not a murderer nor indiscriminate killer (as a lot of your scans have proven), and based on scans I have seen, I remain disbelieving of this idea of a full force mach 5 speed blitz to start the match.
I do believe she can and will speed blitz, and am more of the belief that it would be in the range of supersonic levels when she does it. The thing about Aspen is, her attacks don’t have to kill Carol. Everything she can do is well within her morals.
In Closing:
Carol is tough, she really is. I obviously don’t buy that she is going to jump straight into combat running Mach 5 hitting someone she doesn't know and doesn't have to kill full force. I don’t doubt that like Aspen, she can and will kill, but from what I have read of Carol, she is not this complete cold-hearted, kill everyone and everything kind of person. Based on showings I have seen, if she does use her speed, it will more likely be in the Mach 3 arena, as I have not seen anything to make me think otherwise.
She may or may not try a few blitzes against Aspen, who is fast enough to react to her supersonic speeds, and then Aspen can make the battlefield a difficult place for fliers by creating a multitude of water spouts or tsunami like effects, can go water form and blend in with the environment as it were, and has a multitude of options to take down Carol here.
Really the only thing I think I left out was Aspen's telepathy...but so far that has only been shown with members of the Black, so I guess it is really neither here nor there currently.
“It was a fun debate...I don't think there is anything more to debate. I think we both covered everything. We can start to tag people & let the voters decide.”
I agree my friend. We will do nothing but head into the arena of repetition if we continue with this further. I think a good solid case was made all around for both sides here. Why “water down” good debate with such…bah…even I can’t believe I went there=P
I think we are ready to close this bad boy out now! It has been fun, and I salute you @lukehero for coming on with it full force=)
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