CAV ILS (Maul & Savage) vs ShootingNova (Obi-Wan & Anakin)

Let's get this show on the road The voting for this CAV is finished.

In the red corner, weighing in at a combined total of 496 pounds of hatred..

Darth Maul and Savage Opress

VS

In the blue corner, weighing in at an amount of pounds I didn't bother to check..

Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker

This legendary rivalry finally comes to a head in this clash of the titans..

Settings

• In character, morals on
• Fight to the death/KO/incapacitation
• Standard Gear
• Maul is TCW. Savage is pre-death.
• Obi Wan and Anakin are ROTS (but Anakins emotions are not hindering him)

Location

CAV rules for viewers

• Do not interfere with the debate. This means you cannot post scans, videos or quotes, correct either of us or anything, or in general post your opinion on the fight. This is a debate between me and ShootingNova and we'd appreciate that you let us get on with it. Having said that, if you feel the need to point something out you can send it to us in a PM, otherwise, wait till votes are open.
• Please, I know it's going to be exciting, but try not to get popcorn everywhere.

Voting Rules

• Must vote based on who debated better, not who you think would win personally.
• Must provide a reason related to our arguments as to why you voted, i.e "ShootingNova showed Obi Wan was faster" or something to that effect.
• Voting will be up for a week, unless the votes are obviously one sided. This is mostly just here to remind myself.. so voting will end on the 18th April.

@shootingnova Tis up

Ohhhhhh, tag me for votes. I've been noticing I_like-swords recently, and he's been getting pretty good. Of course he isn't anywhere near me, that is impossible within itself, but simply catching the Wolverine08's attention is a feat worth mentioning.

But.. I thought I already was pretty...

You were ugly.

Should be good

Tag me in.

@wolverine08: Lol it's cool I knew you meant good*. Of course I'm not ugly. Goes without saying.

@whirlwind_33 said:

Tag me in.

• Please, I know it's going to be exciting, but try not to get popcorn everywhere.

I'm watching you.

@i_like_swords: hehe. You're cool peoples bro. I hope you do well. Watch out though because ShootingNova is going to come hard. However, I know you'll do great.

@whirlwind_33: Thanks bro.

@i_like_swords: Are you sure you actually CAN win this debate? Not sure about the balance of The Force in these two teams.

@penderor: I'm sure as sure can be.

Tag pls

@i_like_swords: Good luck. I'll respond in many hours time :P

And there'll be time issues, but I should be able to manage at least one response per day.

@penderor: Don't worry about it. He knows what he's doing.

@shootingnova: Good luck broski. One response a day is my average aswell to be honest. Should be good.

@i_like_swords: Heh. Do you want to start first?

@shootingnova: Sure, I'll have a post up in the next few hours.

@shootingnova:

Offensive Force Powers

First off, I think I need to point out that Maul and Savage are in no way lacking in force abilities, whether they be using them together or individually.

Gallery

Maul nonchalantly force choking and lifting a guy about 10 feet above the ground while sitting in a bar. Then snapping his neck around the back of his head. Collapsing a massive amount of debris. And nonchalantly force pushing a large group.

Maul sending a ready and lunging Obi-Wan flying through a cave with the force, and then collapsing part of the cave. Then if you skip to 6:09, Maul, clearly not at full strength after being injured and while outrunning blaster bolts, drags a ship a fair distance and then off a cliff. Not sure of the exact weight of the ship but an impressive feat nonetheless.

As for Savage...

We see him force pushing Obi Wan and Anakin here, and also force pushes them and dozens of droids later on in one powerful blast. Also note he temporarily managed to deflect omni-directional blaster fire.

Skip to 1:45. Savage similarly to Maul pushes a ship off an edge. Also later on his fight with Dooku and Ventress, while they are both ready, he TK throws both of them. Yes, the force choking part when they were fighting isn't impressive. But when they were both facing him combat ready he was still able to throw them. I hold my stance that this isn't PIS and that Savage has a lot of untapped potential with his raw force power. He also downs Dooku with one of his hardest hits and overpowers Obi Wan and Anakin combined physically earlier in the video. He has a lot of physical and force strength and I believe consistently shows it.

Now take both of these monsters and combine their force strength and what do you get?

On panel, they send flying hundreds of feet in all directions, at the bare minimum 87armored and armed soldiers. That isn't counting the ones in the background off panel. And in this comic this particular army was easily in the 400+ range in other battles which further shows the mass amount of bodies that were sent flying here. Do Anakin and Obi Wan have anything to top this?

I'd also like to quickly note that Maul has on two occasions gotten the better of Obi Wan telekinetically during fights.

It spelled Obi Wans defeat here, despite the fact he was amped by force rage at the time due to the death of Qui Gon. And also in the video already posted above where Maul tele-throws Obi Wan. Likewise, Savage has telekinetically launched Obi Wan and Anakin even on full alert. So I think you'll be hard pressed to make the case that Obi-Wan and Anakin have the edge in force power here. Anakin has a lot of raw power don't get me wrong, but does his application of it during battle stack up to what the Nightbrothers have accomplished?

I think the issue of force powers in battle is such a large topic that we could do with tackling it separately from everything else, so I'll end this here. We can get onto other factors later on when we've said our pieces on this.

I look forward to your next post man!

*leans back with arms crossed*

Tag me for votes.

I_like_swords is slowly but surely rounding up into becoming a premier Star Wars debater on the Vine; and that makes me a little happy on the inside, considering how far Star Wars related threads have fallen these days.

Tag me for votes.

I_like_swords is slowly but surely rounding up into becoming a premier Star Wars debater on the Vine; and that makes me a little happy on the inside, considering how far Star Wars related threads have fallen these days.

Never been into Star Wars, but I'm keen to learn more. Good luck.

Ha, thanks man. Honestly though my knowledge doesn't extend far past Maul and Savage when we're talking about your level of knowledge. I'll get there one character at a time xD

@i_like_swords: Quoting all of that might not be necessary and probably is tedious, so I'll just reply.

Now, in respects to power, I do agree Obi-Wan is definitely last place, but it's not as if he doesn't have some power himself. For instance, manipulating Durge's ship with no evident strain:

Forming a giant wave with the Force:

Using the Force, Obi-Wan created a wave behind them. He reached out to every molecule of water, calling on the Force to bind them into a giant, cresting black wave.

Source: The Desperate Mission

So while he is the least powerful, he should have some credit for his powers. Now we know Maul is powerful enough to beat Obi-Wan solely by TK, but I'm not so sure about Savage. Opress is definitely more powerful, and probably stronger, but Obi-Wan might be comparable in strength, and his own martial ability and significantly greater combat skill afforded him the ability to land several hits on Savage (and two on Maul), and eventually break Savage's leg. Savage is more powerful, but Obi-Wan by RotS was able to deflect telekinetic blasts from Anakin,

They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Now, yes, that was a hindered Anakin, but Anakin himself has more powerful than Savage in general (I will get to this later) and I do think that Savage wouldn't be powerful enough to outright Choke Obi-Wan, and he never displayed enough finesse or skill with his power to do so against a seasoned Force-sensitive (excluding Dooku and Ventress who were fighting each other anyways). He would have to use telekinetic blasts against Kenobi, and I am confident in Kenobi's Deflection to be able to deflect Force Blasts from Savage, but even if he couldn't, Savage would never beat Obi-Wan solely by virtue of power. We saw Obi-Wan could physically win against Savage in Revival, and the feat from Witches of the Mist was just inconsistent and wouldn't really apply to regular EU Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I will quote a section of your post that I would like to discuss.

To be fair, that Obi-Wan had hardly any telekinetic feats that I know of. He did casually stomp a few battle droids, but that's not much. With just as much ease, an older Kenobi manipulates Durge's ship.

Now, this will undoubtedly prompt me to show a number of Anakin's telekinetic feats, but frankly, I would like to suggest something regarding your comment of Savage beating both Obi-Wan and Anakin.

1. That was just an inconsistent feat. TCW Anakin (and probably Obi-Wan, too) have no power or general feats that match regular EU Anakin and Obi-Wan. At least, in that episode (around that time). Especially Anakin, whose general feats just aren't as good. He had a few feats within the realms of TK and Strength that were quite good in the series, but that was it.
2. Savage seemed to be bloodlusted, but even then, using a Force Push may not necessarily indicate greater power. Sora Bulq used a Push against Windu, but that doesn't necessitate that Bulq was more powerful at all. Something like Choke and Grip on a character is more indicative of greater power than just a Push, and I still maintain that these iterations of Anakin and Obi-Wan had nothing to match regular EU Obi-Wan and Anakin.

With respects to his own power, Anakin's feats are just plainly superior to anything either of the brothers have ever shown. Here's some examples.

Manipulating a massive escape pod which dwarfed Durge in size and hurling it into a star:

Here he collapses a massive thirty by ninety meter dome with a Force Scream:

In the ruined archive hall of LiMerge Power's plasma facility, Count Dooku waited for Kenobi and Skywalker to arrive. The room was enormous by any standard, thirty meters high and three times that in circumference.

More droids appeared. To Dooku, this was nothing more than a game, Obi-Wan told himself. But if it was a demonstration of Force ability Dooku wanted, then Anakin was still more than willing to provide it.

"Dooku!" he howled.

With such force and wrath that the ceiling of the vast hall began to collapse.

Dragging himself out from under plasteel girders and chunks of ferrocrete, Count Dooku came shakily to his feet and gazed in astonished disbelief at the shambles of the control room. Had the containment dome been so weak that it had succumbed to flurries of ricocheting blaster bolts, or had Skywalker's voiced rage actually called the ceiling down? Had Dooku not leapt forcefully at the last moment, he might have been buried, as the two Jedi were, somewhere below, in the expanse of rubble that covered the archive room. He was certain that they had survived. But if nothing else they were trapped, which had been the intent from the start.

But Skywalker... Assuming that he had grown powerful enough to have collapsed the dome, the end result was simply further evidence that he would someday undo himself. Wasn't it? Because admitting to any alternative explanation meant accepting that Skywalker was potentially a greater threat to the Sith than anyone realized.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

(Yes, I am aware that this is not a voluntary power, but it may be used for at least a minority, and it still showcases power).

Repeatedly stomping Asajj Ventress with the Force:

Yes, I'm aware Anakin was getting angry, but he was also just a padawan at this time, and he did stomp Ventress once with TK before he was really getting enraged anyways.

Ventress doesn't seem like a particularly overwhelming character, but pertaining to power, she has collapsed stone ceilings and incited avalanches before. She is at least comparable to Savage, considering how even in TCW she was able to project blasts that staggered Anakin and floored a number of Clone troopers without being enraged.

Among Anakin's other TK feats are hurling Tusken Raiders thirty meters:

A third came at him, thrusting forth a spear, but Anakin lifted an empty hand and set up a wall of Force energy as solid as stone. Then he shoved out with that hand, and the Tusken spearman flew away, fully thirty meters, smashing through the wall of yet another hut.

Source: Attack of the Clones

Hurling boulders the size of huts:

Soon none were standing against him, all trying to flee, but Anakin would have none of that. He saw one group rush into a hut and reached out across the way, to a large boulder in the distance. It flew to his call, soaring across the sand, smashing one fleeing Tusken down and flying on. Anakin dropped it on the hut full of Tuskens, crushing them all.

Source: Attack of the Clones

Manipulating Conqueror-class Dreadnaughts (you can see just how much Obi-Wan's starfighter pales in size):

All of these feats were accomplished when Anakin was just a Padawan. He wasn't even in his prime.

He has a few more feats, like this one, but I think you get my point.

In terms of overall power level, Anakin is just more powerful than any member of your team, which compensates for Obi-Wan being weaker. Now, in regards to combative applications of TK, Anakin has a few, but they aren't as good as say, Dooku. That said, Maul's is actually not that good either. His massive TK feats never really occurred while fighting seasoned Force-users, and as I recall, each time he stomped Kenobi with the Force, it was because he had a respite opportunity.

Regarding speed, this shouldn't be an issue. We know that Anakin and Obi-Wan have fought entire armies (more than once). For instance, in this showing, they fend off hundreds (if not thousands) of droids' worth of blaster fire.

Gallery

Yes, they were definitely having trouble, but then, during the events of the Clone Wars, while Anakin and Obi-Wan would have been rapidly approaching their prime, I don't think they made it just yet. Their primes would be RotS. After all, by RotS, Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to deflect omnidirectional, simultaneous blaster fire from entire armies all by himself, and with only a little help from terrain, rather than having Anakin by his side and still having issues:

An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there...

Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center's superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

And Anakin has generally been portrayed as faster than Obi-Wan. Here's a few of his speed feats:

Fighting fast enough to appear in multiple places at once (this happens a number of years prior to AotC, so this is something he accomplished years before his prime):

Never had Obi-Wan seen such a display of the Force from a Padawan. From the great Jedi Masters, yes. From Qui-Gon, near the end of his life.

But from someone so young? Anakin's power astonished him. He had glimpsed it before, but now he had seen it unfurl, and it staggered him.

He had not had a chance to move, to help. Anakin had been a blur. He had seemed to be everywhere at once. He had destroyed ten attack droids, disarmed his aggressors, and disabled two laser cannons without hesitation, with even a slight smile on his face.

Credit to Silver2467

Fighting fast enough to coat himself in the light of his blade, which was also only achieved during AotC, three years before his prime:

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

Source: Attack of the Clones

Fighting fast enough to envelop Dooku's vision and make him see blue light everywhere:

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Moving fast enough to generate a rather impressive number of afterimages:

I think it's clear enough at this stage that Obi-Wan can match Maul in speed and pretty much should exceed Savage, with Anakin just exceeding them all, but not by a large margin.

With respects to strength, your team is superior to Kenobi, but probably not by a tremendous margin, and not better than Anakin, who has struck against an opponent's blade hard enough to shatter stone beneath them:

(8:45-8:53)

Pertaining to Maul and Savage's greater strength feats than Kenobi, it is worth noting that Kenobi knows Immovability, which might not have very much merit and likely wouldn't turn up in a fight but if Savage attempted a massive attack or something to floor Kenobi, I doubt he would be successful in replicating the feat against Dooku, even though I consider that feat inconsistent anyways.

And then he was sliding, back up the sloping skirt and across the platform, towed by the rocket-man. With reflexes honed by years of intensive training, and with the Force-strength of a Jedi Master, Obi-Wan snap-rolled his body forward, back up over his outstretched arms, tumbling to his feet, then leaping out to the side as the towline again went taut, jerking him along. He rolled about a pylon and came back to his feet again, now having the leverage of the metal pole helping to hold him there.

Reaching deeply in the Force once more, he grounded himself, becoming, for an instant, almost as one with the platform.

Immovable.Source: Attack of the Clones

With respects to combat skill and lightsaber adroitness, we know Obi-Wan has fought evenly with TCW Maul in the past (he sort of did lose one, but he also lost his composure, and in general, he managed to fight Maul evenly), so his combat skill is worth noting in of itself. Nick Gillard also stated that Anakin was a tier 9 while Obi-Wan was only a tier 8, and therefore Anakin should be the best duelist here. I can't find the video, though. I'll have to try find it eventually. With respects to his own abilities, Anakin has stalemated Dooku, fought evenly with Obi-Wan while hindered, sparred evenly with Kenobi, beaten Cin Drallig and Serra Keto while hindered, beaten a clone of Count Dooku, stomped some Magnaguards, etc. In this department, the advantage should come fairly quickly to my side. Kenobi alone is an equal to Maul, and Anakin is even more skilled, while Savage is more or less brute strength. He has evolved so as to gain some finesse and skill, but still, a majority of his physical combat feats, if not all, were decided by his strength and power, rather than his skill.

So in short, my team should have roughly equivalent power, has answers for your team's strength (especially Anakin's own strength, which is preponderant to your team's anyways), is faster thanks to Anakin, and has a significant skill edge, and it tends to be skill that decides a fight, and that, combined with my team's obviously superior fighting synergy (quotes below) to your team's, I think, can score my team a 7-8/10 win.

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

His lightsaber came up in an instinctive parry. They had sparred together so often that they knew each other's favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin's attack. Lightsabers humming, they battled their way down the hall and into the control center. It felt.... familiar, like another practice session, except for the exploding equipment.

Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

Still, the fight continued, even as the collection tower sank slowly into the lava. And still, neither man could gain an advantage.Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

Years of fighting side-by-side left these warriors evenly matched, and their exhausting duel crossed the fiery landscape of a Mustafar refinery.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

I do want to address, however, that Maul's cybernetic legs could potentially, but not definitely, have some impact on the fight. Obi-Wan displayed Electronic Manipulation on both Grievous and Anakin's cybernetic hands:

Because all there on the bridge was one in the Force, from the gross structure of the ship itself to the quantum dance of the electron shells of individual atoms—and because, after all, the nerves and muscles of the bio-droid general were creations of electronics and duranium, not living tissue with will of its own—it was just barely possible that with exactly the right twist of his mind, in that one vulnerable quarter of a second while Grievous was distracted, flinching backward from a spray of flame hot enough to burn even his armored body, Obi-Wan might be able to temporarily reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in the general's mechanical hands.

Which is exactly what he did.

Durasteel fingers sprang open, and two lightsabers fell free.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice - but it was a very good trick.

It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous...

He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.

Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

And Anakin has displayed technometry when he controlled a pair of Super Battle Droids to attack each other:

Now, to address the circumstances. Anakin has only displayed this power once, so the chance of it being used again, especially in a fight against seasoned Force-users is slim to none. However, Obi-Wan has also displayed electronic-manipulating power, and if it is successful, it could be a catalyst for Anakin to attempt this power as well. However, the issue is whether this would even work. Obi-Wan required Anakin to be hindered during their fight, and Grievous to be momentarily distracted in order to successfully apply this power. However, there is a possibility for Maul to be distracted for a brief moment, and if that would happen (I doubt this would happen for more than one or two rounds at best, honestly), then he might be able to use this power. However, considering Maul is a Force user and Grievous isn't, it might be more difficult to utilize. So I have doubts regarding whether this tactic would really work, but it is plausible that it could happen for a round or two which would benefit my team.

On a side and final note, I think just posting scans and quotes and videos might not be the best way to debate. It's obvious that we would need to provide some supporting evidence, but technically, I think it would be more important to also discuss how they would come into effect and how they would play in this fight, rather than just posting them, and I don't think I can manage posting this much every day. I'll be having RL issues for at about another full week, which would definitely cause issues relating to time.

@i_like_swords: I apologize regarding the scans, which are all, for some reason, unreadable due to their strange sizing. I've had this issue in the past and I don't know how I fixed it. If it's necessary, I'll try to repost any scans you want.

Tag me. Ill promise not to be too harsh on Maul!

Nah joking, this comes allways in handy to check feats

@shootingnova:

I'm glad we're in agreement that Maul and Savage surpass Obi-Wan in force power, even if it isn't by a whopping amount. We both knew this would be a close fight from the beginning, but these finer details need to be taken into account. Obi-Wan is incredibly knowledgeable, has a solid defensive style and rarely makes stupid or arrogant mistakes, and is definitely someone to look to as a role model or teacher. However, the raw power simply isn't there, where it is in abundance for Savage and Maul. And while Savage is a bit of a brute when it comes to force refinement, I do need to note that when he lets loose as he often does, he has accomplished very impressive feats of raw power that could serve to unbalance Obi Wan and Anakin in this fight. Likewise Maul is a very powerful telekinetic, but he himself has shown a lot of refinement in his force ability. The raw power is there, but he is also intelligent with it.

Gallery

Here Maul, using TK, pushes a button across a room to release Savage from Carbonite. Now people will be reading this and thinking "what on earth is impressive about that.. pressing a button is easy!". And it does seem that way. But it has been stated that to pull off a feat like this does take a considerable amount of refinement. Think of it like this - is it easier to play soccer/football with a regular ball, or a tennis ball? Of course, with a regular ball. But what Maul is doing here is, he's playing with a tennis ball. He's showing how refined and attuned his telekinetic abilities where people less experienced have failed.

Gallery

Here, Maul engineers an elderly mans heart attack without any real knowledge of the guys medical history. I find this extremely impressive. Think of it this way. If you were groping around inside someones chest, how easy do you think it'd be to mess something up? Knock a vital organ, maybe put just too much pressure on their heart? Especially if it's an old guy. Well that's what Maul does here with the force. He's groping around inside this guy, and is able to put the perfect amount of pressure on his heart to cause him to go into a heart attack. He uses it to inspire his soon-to-be army, and then kills him at the end. Another showing of Mauls refinement with the force.

With that I think I can close the topic of force powers. I think we stand in agreement that while both Maul and Savage are more powerful telekinetically than Obi-Wan, Anakin is more powerful than both of them. However, I do tend to favor two average links opposed to one weak link. In the past we have seen Obi Wan and Anakin be separated by a superior telekinetic. Dooku in AOTC put a younger and weaker Anakin out of the fight with force lightning (albeit due to recklessness), and in ROTS he put Obi-Wan out the game early on with his TK, separating the partnership. And while Maul and Savage are no Dooku in terms of force power, they both have been successful with using the force on the pairing in the past. And I think if Obi-Wan is caught out, and is thrown away to the side in this fight, it could prove to be a huge disadvantage for Anakin in a 2v1 situation, no matter how brief or prolonged it may be. And as for Anakins combative applications of TK, stomping Ventress is not the hugest feat (not to mention one of the fights you listed was in the overly-action packed original cartoon which exaggerated a lot of peoples abilities). Maul and Savage themselves have never stomped her in TK directly apart from the time Savage threw her, but they do both have better feats than her.

Also, on the topic of Anakin and Obi-Wan manipulating Mauls legs.. were you referencing his massive robotic legs from Mother Talzin? Because he had them changed to normal sized prosthetic legs by the Deathwatch. And also, the type of technometry you are showing has exclusively been used on droids, and never on prosthetic limbs, at least in my experience. Droids have special mechanical components that force sensitives can manipulate. Maul himself has stated that he can do it in Darth Maul Shadow Hunter although I'd need to dig for the exact quote. Likewise with Grievous, he has electrodrivers in his system that can be manipulated. So I don't really see how Maul could be technologically manipulated here, especially given this is a combat situation which will afford the Jedi little chance to pull off such a tactic even if it was possible. It just doesn't seem like this level of technometry can extend to the type of artifical replacement limbs that Anakin and Maul both have.

Now speaking physically I must disagree that there is a large advantage in speed for your team. In fact I think I'd put the speed somewhere like this:

Anakin > Maul > Obi-Wan=Savage

And even then, as we have agreed in other threads, the speed difference between Maul and Anakin is close to negligible. And while Obi-Wans feat of deflecting omni-directional blaster fire is impressive, Savage has replicated it. In my video in my previous post (Anakin and Obi Wan vs Savage, where he overpowers them) Savage at one point is deflecting close range, 100% omnidirectional blaster fire from a small army of droids. He gets overwhelmed, sure, but he was holding it down for at least 5-7 seconds. And in Obi-Wans feat he was at least able to run while deflecting the blaster bolts, indicating they weren't all as close range or on-target as the ones fired at Savage. Also, Savage has never had an issue keeping up with people like Obi Wan or Ventress. He looks big and brutish, but he is just as fast as Obi Wan. And Maul has demonstrated just how superior in speed and finesse he is to his brother:

Anyway. I think I've at the very least made my point that Savage is equal to Obi Wan in speed.

Now I'm just going to drop all of Mauls best speed feats. Not in the hopes of surpassing Anakin, but in matching his speed feats. People can decide for themselves who is more impressive, but I really only want to show that the difference in their speed is so small it's not even important.

Activates his lightsaber just in time to deflect seven blaster bolts from a bounty hunter at close range, his hands moving in a blur.

He thumbed on both blades as the next blaster bolt and half a dozen more came his way in rapid succession. The Sith apprentice’s hands were a blur as he let the dark side take him over completely, giving in to its power and allowing it to control and manipulate him. Blaster bolts struck the lightsaber’s spinning blades and were deflected into the walls, the ceiling, the floor. No time to aim, though a bolt or two did hit the bounty hunter without apparent effect.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Dodges a wrist-launcher rocket after it was fired at extremely close range, disappearing in a blur before the bounty hunter's eyes.

Desperate, she reached for her wrist launcher. Her only chance was to hit the horned one squarely and hope that the explosion would be contained enough by the other’s body to allow Lihnn to survive. But as she triggered the launcher the tattooed man seemed to disappear in a blur. All of a sudden there was a hole in the wall where an instant ago it had been solid.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul running five times faster than a human can travel.

But there was an even quicker way to overtake them. He called upon the Force, moving easily five times faster than a human could travel at a dead run. There was no way they could escape him now.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul spins a web of light out of his lightsaber blades during a fight.

He pressed the attack viciously, blocking and thrusting, the twin radiant blades spinning a web of light about him.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Dodges a freight train coming at him at over 100km/h (or, over 60mph).

He landed lightly. The entire tunnel was shaking as with the roar of some titanic beast. Maul looked up to see a driverless freight transport bearing down on him at better than one hundred kilometers an hour. Anyone else, even a trained athlete raised in a heavier gravity field, would have been crushed to paste. But Maul seized the Force, let it whip him up and to the side as if he were attached to a giant elastic band. The metal behemoth missed him by millimeters.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Spins his blade during combat, so fast, it forms a shield.

But they did not prevent her from deflecting his strikes as he again moved within range, his twin blades spinning so fast they seemed to merge into a crimson shield.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Moves so fast that recording equipment needs to be slowed down to see him.

When he was satisfied that he had committed the results of his reconnaissance to memory, he shrugged out of his cloak and leapt straight up over the fence, landing precisely where some of the rocks he had tossed rested. Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.

Episode I Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul

Moves faster than a droid can see.

Maul delivered a sharp kick to the droid's spherical underside. The droid soared toward the ceiling but regained control before impact and flew back toward the Sith. Maul leaped aside, moving faster than the droid's photoreceptor could follow. The droid raced past him and smashed hard against the cell wall.

During a training exercise, Maul is facing a droid that can throw blows imperceptibly fast. Despite this, he still perceives his surroundings as if time had slowed down.

Rapier lunged at full extension, its metal knee joint bent almost to the floor. The needle point flickered toward Maul's heart, almost too fast to see.

The dark side blossomed in Darth Maul, the power of it resonating in him like black lightning, augmenting his years of training, guiding his reactions. Time seemed to slow, to stretch.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

States he can kill four or five beings in the flicker of an eyelash.

The Raiders shake their gaderffii and begin to surround me. There are just too many of them. I can take out four or five in the flicker of an eyelash, but that will just infuriate the rest. Frustration boils inside me. These interruptions deflect me from my mission.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Slashes a droid twice, so fast an onlooker couldn't even see either blow delivered.

Anger rises in me, which is good. The darkness crests and roars. I twist in the air, my lightsaber twirling, revolving. Its balance is perfect in my hand. I strike one hard blow to the left flank of the droid. I feel the power of the move reverberate all the way to my shoulder. It gratifies me. The other blow to the right follows a fraction of an instant later, so close that an observer would not be able to tell which blow came first.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul speedblitzes multiple squads of battle droids. A squad is made up of 8 droids. He would of been deflecting dozens of blaster bolts from numerous angles while doing this.

Calling his long lightsaber to his hand, he made short work of the squad, decapitating them with his blade or exploding them by deflecting blaster bolts back at them. The brief altercation drew several more patrols, the members of which he similarly dismembered.

End Game

And I also need to stress: This is The Phantom Menace Maul. Maul has been stated to have improved overall when he was revived. So these feats aren't even his best.

In regards to strength, I will say that I agree Savage and Maul are stronger than Obi-Wan. Maul has a long list of great strength feats and I believe Savage overpowering your team in a past encounter is alone a good indication of his strength. In the section of my first post discussing Savage's force abilities, there are two videos to note. The first one of Savage fighting Obi-Wan and Anakin and overpowering both of them. And the other one where I talk about Savage moving a ship, Savage earlier in that video threw both Obi Wan and Anakin off of him even when they tried their hardest as a team to overpower him. I think it has been consistently shown that Savage even surpasses Anakin in physical strength. And as for Anakin crumbling stone with his strikes.. honestly it's a very shaky feat. It's very difficult to even put out that level of striking power without disarming your opponent before breaking stone, and again, it's from the very inconsistent original Clone Wars cartoon which had everyone performing overly excessive feats. So I see strength like this:

Savage > Anakin > Maul > Obi-Wan

I'm going to go ahead and put it out there that durability easily goes in my teams favor aswell. Savage as you've seen in videos has tanked blaster fire on his armor numerous times without being even scathed. As Zabraks him and Maul are naturally more resistant to damage than humans, and Mauls durability feats speak for themselves:

Maul stomping Dookus old apprentice, Korami Vosa, right after he took a blaster shot to the shoulder. He also kills a huge worm even though his arm felt like it was on fire.

“Your right arm is slowing you down. Even your weapon is betraying you.” Maul kept coming, relying more and more on his left arm, saving the right for when he’d need it most. But Vosa seemed to anticipate everything he was doing, dropping low and then springing up and outward into an open space along a row of diagnostic machinery in the corner of the medbay. Maul’s lower lip drew back to reveal his teeth. If defeating Vosa was what he needed to do in order to get the weapon in the hands of the Gora, so be it. Gripping the lightsaber’s hilt, he squared his shoulders and swung again, thrusting his blade at her in a series of perfectly angled slashes. Vosa came back at him on the offense, both blades spinning.

“Jar’Kai,” Maul snarled, deflecting her assault on reflex. “Predictable.” He swung the lightsaber down, but at that moment the corridor shook again, jerking sideways, throwing them both off. Vosa recovered first, darting back, again too quick, and the speed with which she evaded his attack only inflamed the rage inside Maul’s mind, stoking his wrath until it crystallized into a kind of malignant grace. Now he gripped the lightsaber in both arms, forcing his damaged right arm into service and gripping the hilt of his saber with his full strength. It was time for Juyo, the Way of the Vornskr— the last of the Seven Forms. He seized upon it eagerly, allowing himself to be swept up in the chaotic frontal assault of thrusts, slashes, and jabs.

“Maul—” A tremor of new fear pulsed across Vosa’s face, disrupting her composure, as if she’d finally recognized the true ferocity of his purpose. Darting backward into a desperate evasive measure, Vosa whirled one of her blades behind her, hacking loose a massive shelf of surgical instruments from its place on the wall, and with a swing of the hand she used a Force push to fire them at him in a glinting storm of steel. Maul ducked the flying instruments and bobbed back up with a silent snarl. In his mind, the duel was all but over— his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.

He charged at it, the makeshift lightsaber swinging sideways in both hands as he thrust it directly into the thing’s gaping maw, then planted his feet and spun the blade in a 360-degree arc. His right arm felt like it was on fire. His right shoulder was screaming at him. He ignored it, sweeping the saber around again, carving the very teeth from its mouth, slashing at the mandibles from the inside, then spinning it the other way until he’d chopped the mouthparts themselves to ribbons.

Star Wars: Maul: Lockdown

Here, Maul gets run over by Skycar repulsors. They were set to a force output meant to leave Maul unconscious long enough for his targets to drive away in escape. Maul is up off his feet before they barely get in the skycar, amazing everyone, even a droid.

The skycar passed right over the robed figure at a height carefully calculated to deliver a force from the repulsors sufficient to stun but not kill. It worked; as the vehicle lurched and moved on, Darsha looked behind them and saw the mysterious assailant lying in the street, the fuliginous robes a darker blot against the general darkness. Then Master Bondara brought the skycar to a stop near the two fugitives. Darsha noted with surprise that one of them was a droid.

“Get in,” Master Bondara said to the human. “He’s unconscious, but I don’t know how long he’ll be—” “Not long,” the droid said, and pointed back toward the pursuer. Darsha glanced back and saw to her astonishment that the dark one was already rising to his feet. She could scarcely believe he had recovered from the repulsors’ hammering so fast.

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Maul being cooked alive at well over 200 degree heats. Despite this he endures the sheerly overwhelming amount of physical pain and injury this would have caused and busts open a steel elevator hatch.

He closed his eyes, summoning the power of the dark side, searching the hatch, probing it for structural weakness. It didn’t budge. Blinking back sweat, he rededicated himself to the task at hand. It was growing feverishly hot inside the lift, where Warden Blirr had no doubt intended to roast him alive, or until she broke down whatever rebellious aspect she saw in him, and turned him into … what? Her mascot, her house pet, or something even more servile?

The notion revolted him, and he jammed the metal strip in deeper between the locked hatch and its housing, wiggling it back and forth. Boiling with impatience, he released a concentrated energy field against the hatch, battering it, but it still wouldn’t budge.

Maul cursed, the anger rising up inside him from wherever it lived and toiled endlessly. Tightening his grip on the makeshift tool, he started working again on the hatch, forcing himself to take his time, fighting to ignore the suffocating heat, the baked air that filled his lungs, as if he were drawing breath directly from a blast furnace.

He fixed his gaze straight up. The hatch itself, an unremarkable twelve-by-eighteen-centimeter rectangle, had become his entire world. Twelve by eighteen, and in the end it represented the difference between completing his mission and perishing in shame and obscurity.

Slipher— Radique— the khipus—

He clenched his teeth , the heat very close to him now, pressing in from all sides, clinging to him like a second skin. By now the walls had become scalding steel plates, burning the palm of his hand and the fingers holding him in place. The inside of his mouth felt cool by comparison. A drop of sweat hit the floor and he realized that he could actually hear it sizzle. If the temperature kept going up like this, he guessed that he might have another minute or two before he blacked out from heat prostration, and then—

He kept working. There was an odd, meaty smell rising up around him, and when his blistered palm shifted slightly on the wall, he realized that it was his own flesh beginning to roast. Master. I will not fail.

He breathed in, breathed out. An odd, narcotic dizziness had started to take hold of him , and he reached down deep into whatever remained of his consciousness, forcing himself to focus. He needed to find Eogan Truax. If he could just— All at once, the hatch popped open.

Star Wars: Maul: Lockdown

And aside from that, Maul was trained to be durable. Sidious regularly tortured him with force lightning as punishments for his failures. During his Sith trials he left him stranded for a month in deserts, mountains and swamps with no food, and left him to fight armies of droids constantly. Maul is easily one of the most durable Star Wars character to date. And this goes a massively long way when we consider things like kicks, punches and elbows during a fight. Or even superficial cuts. No amount of pain or injury will slow Maul unless you cut him in half - oh wait, he came back from that too.

So right now I'd say things are like this. Anakin is a strong link for your team, although I honestly rate Maul very closely to him in regards to speed and skill. Obi Wan, despite being more skilled than Savage alone, is the weakest person here in the grand scheme of things, and the way I'm looking at it in terms of force abilities, physicals and combat effectiveness, Obi-Wan is bordering on a weak link for your team. Especially when Maul has bested him on two occasions decisively already.

Skill

Going to put it out there. I see skill like this.

Anakin = Maul > Obi-Wan > Savage. While Savage has the physicals over Obi-Wan, he is just not as skilled as him. But I'm fine with accepting that. Because skill is in my opinion the lone area where you get the slightest advantage. Mostly due to Anakin. But I think it's safe to say Maul has shown his superiority over Obi-Wan, and I'm going to try and show why he is at the very least equal to Anakin.

Anakin for a start is not better than Dooku, I think we need to clear this up. I mean I haven't read the ins and outs of the Revenge of the Sith novelization but it's clear to see that Dooku has always been testing Anakin for Palpatine. He always used telekinesis or lightning to knock him out in their fights, and has only ever really disarmed him. And he was getting the better of Anakin during Revenge of the Sith until his Dun Moch backfired and made Anakin go into an amped force rage mode. Which was Sidious' plan all along, while Dooku himself thought he was just his untouchable apprentice. The power struggle between Anakin and Dooku was always there but Anakin is not a better duelist than him. His Djem So is just incredibly effective against his Makashi lightsaber form, and there has always been some situational factor involving Dooku not planning to kill him in their fights.

Next, fighting while "hindered" were some of your feats pertaining to Anakins skill above. This is not something foreign to Maul. He outright stomped a former apprentice of Dookus with a blaster bolt injury almost negating use of his fight arm. In his first fight with Qui Gon Jinn Maul had a serious leg injury from an axe wound and he still managed to force Qui Gon to flee. And in terms of Maul overcoming amped fighters, he's done it three times. He defeated a force rage induced Obi-Wan after beating Qui Gon, he defeated Darsha Assant who had a massive force amp boosting her to levels above her own master, Anoon Bondara, and he has defeated another amped padawan who's name I forget, who witnessed Maul kill his master. Maul is no stranger to facing overwhelming circumstances and still being the decisive victor.

In terms of who he's beaten of note. Qui Gon Jinn, Anoon Bondara (stated to be one of the Jedi's premier fighters), Obi-Wan Kenobi, Savage who he outright stomped which is something neither Anakin or Obi Wan have done, Darsha Assant while amped, Korami Vosa while he was injured, as well as numerous no-name force users with complete ease, giving him a kill count in the 10+ even before The Phantom Menace.

Aside from that, Maul has an extremely wide variety of technical knowledge. He has mastered Juyo, Teras Kasi and Jar Kai. He has shown expertise in Niman, the form which is the most balanced of them all with no real strengths of weaknesses, and he also learned how to use Dun Moch effectively, even against Obi-Wan. He has shown that he can fight with a single lightsaber, double bladed lightsaber and with dual lightsabers all with the same amount of skill level and no preference. And aside from that he's had far more extensive combat training than anyone here under Sidious himself. He easily dwarves everyone here in overall knowledge and has a massive kill count under his belt. There is no disparity in skill between him and Anakin.

Summary

• In terms of force powers I believe I have the advantage. Maul and Savage have both shown massive amounts of raw power on their own and while working as a team, and there is a massive chance that Obi-Wan could be separated from Anakin during this fight. And Maul would love nothing more than to slay Obi-Wans apprentice before his eyes. I see it as a very plausible scenario that Obi-Wan, being the weakest here in force power by a decent margin, gets separated from Anakin, leaving Anakin in a 2v1 for quite a fair portion of the fights. 2 average links > 1 weak link and 1 somewhat strong link. Anakin by no means dwarves Savage or Maul in force power as the Zabraks feats show
• In terms of physicals, I believe I also have the advantage. Frankly Maul and Savage are both stronger and more durable than Kenobi by a fair margin, and I also believe Maul is the most durable here while Savage is the strongest. Speedwise I see Savage being equal to Kenobi while Anakin and Maul tie for first place. Savage has replicated Obi-Wans best speed feats, and there is no denying he is not slow and is completely able to compete in terms of speed here. And Anakin and Mauls speed feats are so closely knit there is no real advantage there.
• In terms of skill, this is where you garner a slight advantage in that both of your team members surpass Savage in skill. But again this takes nothing away from the blatant advantages in raw power Savage holds here, especially over Obi Wan. Maul could be considered the most skilled here or minimally equal to Anakin. He has a massive kill record/win record against competent force sensitives, and against opponents where he was at a massive disadvantage. His vast knowledge of lightsaber forms, physical and mental martial arts and being able to wield single, double and dual lightsabers all with mastery, shows that he is superior if not equal to Anakin. And he is also the most well trained person here without a shadow of a doubt.

It's a very close fight, and it's a shame it never happened in the EU at some point, but I think I can take a 6/10 win here.

@i_like_swords: Regarding the TK feats, I still don't see anything beyond what I listed as Maul's most impressive TK feats. Honestly, crushing hearts/instigating heart attacks is something Bane could do before he even had any Force-based training or recognition, and even by his prime Bane's power feats do not outstrip TCW Maul's. I think we're pretty much done discussing power; it's just plainly obvious how power would fit anyways.

With respects to the physical feats, I am rather doubting that TCW Maul would have improved. It was stated he became more powerful, which is in relevance to the Force, not his speed or skill or anything of that sort.

There's a few things I would like to discuss quickly, though.

1. Hardly. The only inconsistent feats from CW were Grievous's feat on Hypori and Windu's feat on Dantooine. Anakin has also torn apart spider droids with his bare hands, and I'll try to find it for you, but I am suffering from time quite heavily today.

2. I never said Anakin was better. In fact, he has never beaten Dooku without circumstances, but he was listed by Nick Gillard as in the tier with Windu, who is Dooku's equal. That, and Dooku holding back has never been stated. You can fight to your maximum ability and still not try to kill your opponent. Dooku may not have been planning on outright killing Anakin, but he was still willing to fight Anakin, and based off the RotS novelization's description, it was clear Dooku was reaching his own limits anyways, and this was before Anakin was getting the Force Rage amp.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker - Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.Source: Revenge of the Sith

I underlined the most important parts, which is quite a bit. Dooku was beginning to suffer from fatigue, something he has only been seen to suffer during his duels with Yoda, who is clearly above anybody here. Dooku continuously notes how powerful Skywalker is, and how much more powerful he has become. The quote outright states Dooku had to spend lavishly of his own reserves to merely meet the attacks without being overwhelmed, and the fact that hyperbole like "each block aged him a decade". He was being repeatedly driven back and he was forced to use everything he had to keep going, to the point that he couldn't even strike back anymore. By the time of TCW, there had been dueling roughly evenly (that said, Anakin has also gained the advantage at points but it was never permanent). However, the version we are using is RotS Anakin, against whom Dooku could hardly even defend himself. Now, to be fair, Djem So has an advantage against Makashi (though this particular element is overrated) and Dooku has been capable of fighting Pre-TCW Grievous, somebody at least as strong as Maul, and likely somewhat stronger, without issues.

So honestly, Dooku not trying to kill Anakin means little. He was never outright stated as holding back, and it's clear enough that he was struggling profusely and had reached his own limits in the RotS novel. If he was only toying with Anakin, he would have been able to simply use more of his skills to match Anakin, but he couldn't.

Now yes, I am aware his Dun Moch was partially successful later, but that was the thing that even let him meet Skywalker's attack properly. Before that, he was practically getting overwhelmed.

3. I do agree, but to be fair, Anakin, while hindered, outfought Cin Drallig, who frankly just exceeds anybody you listed save for Qui-Gon, but even then, Qui-Gon has limited feats in dueling (IIRC, he was able to outspar two padawans individually, but he lost when they attacked him together). He is mostly just accolades. Anoon Bondara is also pretty much featless, but he does have accolades to suggest his own technical skills and knowledge, but that shouldn't be beyond Cin Drallig's reach. Not only did Dooku have a rather high opinion of Drallig in LoE, but Drallig was, IIRC, listed as the most skilled swordsman in the temple at the time of Anakin's attack. Jedi vs Sith clearly indicates Drallig's own technical skill and knowledge pertaining to lightsaber forms and the likes, and as I have heard, his skills have also been listed as among the best in the Order itself, which rivals Qui-Gon. And Anakin defeated Drallig with more ease than Maul did Qui-Gon and Bondara. Against Qui-Gon, Maul was injured himself and still winning, but to be fair, he never conclusively won, but it's heavily implied by sources that Qui-Gon would have been killed had he continued fighting any longer. Still, Qui-Gon had just been running through the desert for quite some time, so he might not have been at his peak level. That, and on Naboo, when Maul was utilizing a weapon Qui-Gon was unaccustomed with, Jinn was still able to contend with him for a period of time on his own.

4. Certainly, but Maul's sole lightsaber should be a clear indication that Jar'Kai wouldn't really matter, and his preferred form is Form VII, not VI. Yes, he is required to be a master of multiple forms to be a master of Form VII, but even then, he tends to utilize Juyo more than anything else. That, and both he and Savage were surprised by Obi-Wan's aggressive fighting during their Florrum duel.

Pertaining to his martial arts and Teras Kasi mastery, that is something that could compensate for Anakin's superiority in strength, speed and dueling, which are all minimal anyways. Regarding Maul being even with Anakin, that's not really true. Anakin is above Obi-Wan (who fought Maul as an equal during their duel on Florrum) and is within the tier of Windu and even Yoda, as per Nick Gillard.

Now, I'm not referencing the end part because that was circumstantial, but rather, the beginning, in which Maul had no real advantage (Obi-Wan was even able to score a kick against him), and that was TCW Obi-Wan, who might have been fast approaching his prime, but was not quite there yet (RotS was his prime). And a hindered Anakin was performing just as well against RotS Obi-Wan, pertaining to skill. In fact, Obi-Wan was capable of holding his own against Maul and Savage even with only one blade, and they still never really held any noticeable advantage over him.

So honestly, Maul should only be as skilled as Kenobi, who pretty much fought him as an equal. During their first fight, Maul had the edge, but after that, physically, Maul had no real advantage and had to resort to telekinesis to beat him.

Needless to say, I disagree with your assessment.

1. Anakin outclasses Maul almost as much as Savage does Obi-Wan, and as I said, Savage has never shown the ability to utilize Choke against non-distracted, seasoned beings. He uses telekinetic blasts, which Obi-Wan could more or less utilize Deflection to defend himself against. There shouldn't be much of a reason for Obi-Wan to be separated. His own defensive traits can hold against anything Savage utilizes, and Maul would not break his attention on Anakin to utilize Choke on Obi-Wan, because if he did, he would be felled rather quickly.

If the inverse, Maul could stomp Obi-Wan with the Force, but his morals and their history would make the fight more of a saber based one. RotS Anakin outclasses Savage in almost everything everything (but not strength, though he should still be superior), particularly speed and skill. His power is greater as well. By RotS, he should just beat Savage every time.

2. I doubt it. Obi-Wan has been sent through walls without any real harm, has endured bone-shuddering blows from Boba and Jango without harm, has endured blows from Anakin and Grievous, both of whom are at least as strong as Maul, without actually suffering physical damage. Obi-Wan's resistance to blunt physical force is rather impressive. That, and honestly, durability would only serve to prolong the fight rather than actually score a win.

Savage has never replicated Obi-Wan's speed feats, not to mention his own general clumsiness and reaction times. Obi-Wan and Anakin have both exhibited sub-light reaction speeds, which Savage hasn't done.

Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Savage managed to deflect blaster fire from a number of droids, but was getting overwhelmed and had to rely on durability to tank the bolts, not to mention his own bloodlust and inconsistency throughout the episode anyways. While it is also a matter of skill and Soresu, RotS Obi-Wan was able to deflect blaster fire from more droids without being overwhelmed at all. It should just be superior.

3. Hardly. Anakin's skill feats just outstrip TCW Maul's, who has only beaten featless beings and fought evenly with Obi-Wan, who is below Anakin. Maul's own ability to utilize multiple blades is completely irrelevant as both Obi-Wan and Anakin have done the same, and Maul has only one blade here anyways so this is inconsequential and in no way indicates greater skill than Anakin, somebody who is placed within the tier of Yoda by Nick Gillard pertaining to skill.

Training honestly means nothing. Grand Master Luke Skywalker's students aren't vastly outclassing Obi-Wan or Anakin. Considering how Sidious has fought faster than Maul could even see more than once, I don't really think this would matter. I could just as easily cite Anakin's greater power and potential, but that isn't really relevant. Maul had a harsher upbringing, and more focused on physical traits, but Anakin's incredibly fast learning and acceleration rates more or less cancel that out altogether.

I still think the Electronic manipulation may work for at least one round, and you failed to address my team's vastly greater synergy than your's, and with all things noted, I think my team should get at least a 6-7/10 win.

Bump for ILS.

@shootingnova: Don't worry, I haven't forgotten this. Just need some time to structure my counter amongst other stuff.

@i_like_swords: Alright.

@shootingnova: I just typed a bible of a post and it got deleted by accident... I think I'll sum up my points and we can go to votes? You can reply to this next bit if you want but it'll be my final post. We'd be arguing semantics at this point anyway. Here goes

• I see Anakin and Maul as equals in skill. Anakin outfighting Cin Drallig, who was considered the best Jedi in the temple during Order 66, more or less equates to Maul stomping Anoon Bondara, who was considered one of the best Jedi in the temple while Qui Gon, Yoda, Mace and Dooku were all present. Same with Maul forcing Qui Gon to escape while he was injured, and Maul outright defeating Qui Gon and his apprentice Obi Wan. As for Anakins fight with Dooku - in the quotes you provided, in my opinion, they only portray that Anakin had a strength advantage and Dooku's stamina was failing. It was an indication of power, not skill. And seeing as Maul and Anakin have very similar strength feats barring the one stone feat (inconsistent IMO), I don't see a disparity between them in any category. The gap between Maul and Anakin pales in comparison to the gap between Maul and Obi Wan. And Savage has every advantage over Obi Wan barring skill. I see Obi Wan as somewhat of a weak link while Maul can contend very well with Anakin.
• As for Obi Wan vs Maul. Obi Wan was outright outmatched by Maul during their earlier fight during TCW when Maul used Dun Moch. And with Obi Wans apprentice fighting alongside him he'll be even more susceptible to Dun Moch when Maul starts talking about how he'll kill Anakin before his eyes. Obi Wan has been susceptible to Dun Moch from Dooku as well so it's consistent. Also, Maul defeating Obi Wan during TPM just furthers improves his track record against him.
• I think my team has the overall advantage in force power. Kenobi has been outright stomped by Maul in force power numerous times whether it's been by being blown through a cave, off a ledge or force gripped/choked. He also has less raw power showings than both Maul and Savage. If he gets an advantage over either guy, which he shouldn't in Mauls case, they can fall back on force and send him flying. Anakin is a bit better in force than both guys but not to the extent they out-weight Kenobi. Two average links > One clear weak link and minimally stronger link
• In terms of physicals I'd say speed is equal all around with Anakin taking a slight advantage over anyone. Physical strength and durability goes to my team quite handily seeing as Obi Wan is the only one lacking in the department, and Savage beats everyone. Maul and Anakin are very similar here.
• In terms of skill, you take a minimal advantage. Maul has shown he is superior to Obi Wan and only a little bit behind Anakin if not even given their very similar showings. Savage is the lowest in skill here but he compensates in his raw physical and force strength.
• Basically what I'm saying is, I think Obi Wan is going to go down here, whether it be by being dominated in the force or being distracted by Dun Moch, or just losing to Maul again. Savage has enough raw power to throw his weight around before going down to either guy, and I see Maul and Savage taking Anakin down in a 2v1. In the most simple statement, I'm saying, Power > Skill. Especially when the gap in power is quite large, and the gap in skill is quite small.
• I know that Anakin and Obi Wan have the teamwork advantage, but I don't think it's infalliable. Obi Wan gets separated by a force attack and he synergy is out the window..

@i_like_swords: Alright. I do want to clear some misconceptions/express disagreements, and I apologize for not being able to spend much time on this. Today onwards was when I'd be more free, LOL.

Anakin practically stomped Drallig and won just as easily, if not more easily, as Maul did, but he was also at least somewhat hindered at the time. That, and he actually won conclusively. Bondara committed suicide because he knew he was going to lose, but he put up a better fight than Drallig, especially since Anakin was choking other Padawans at the time.

Regarding Qui-Gon, I already addressed this. He is very skilled, but not as much as it might seem. He is one of the most skilled fighters in the Order and superior to Bondara, but then, he lost to Xanatos and Feemor in a spar. And while Maul did hold the advantage over Qui-Gon and Kenobi together, he never conclusively defeated them together. He had to separate them first.

Maul is not as strong as Anakin. I can't find where it is, but I am positive Anakin has torn spider droids apart and has crushed Magnaguard arms, came close to breaking Obi-Wan's bones while hindered, etc. (and Kenobi's durability feats are quite impressive).

Regarding the fight in general, I actually think Anakin hurting Dooku to that extent might be a little inconsistent (he did surprise Tyranus early, which may have given him an edge). I was mainly posting it to disprove your notion of Tyranus holding back, because the novel outright portrays him as having reached his limits. He was most certainly not the one holding back, and in his perceptions, it was Skywalker holding himself back.

Honestly I don't see Savage winning more than 2 or 3 rounds against Kenobi, if at all. Kenobi's own durability and Protection feats can withstand him getting slammed through walls, so if he gets hurled around, he shouldn't be too harmed. That, and as I said, he can deflect telekinetic blasts from Anakin, so all but the most concentrated Force blasts on Savage's part shouldn't really matter. I also portend that Kenobi is faster than Savage, and I'll get to this later.

Eh.... the second time, though, Dun Moch didn't really work, and Obi-Wan fought evenly with Maul. Obi-Wan seems to have trouble during his first-time engagements with his opponents. The second time, which I will be counting more, Obi-Wan was able to fight evenly with Maul and even land physical blows on him, twice, and Maul never even hit him once physically. He was also not in his prime, which is RotS. The difference is probably marginal, but I would be remiss to ignore it altogether.

Obi-Wan was more or less unaffected by all of Dooku's Dun Moch attempts in the RotS novel, and I can give you quotes if you want. He was also unaffected by Grievous's taunts about killing him, etc. By RotS, Kenobi handles situations very well and I have doubts about Maul successfully applying this tactic more than two or three rounds out of ten, again, if at all.

LOL. TPM Kenobi, who used an entirely different lightsaber form, who had no substantial feats in any area except speed, and was completely inexperienced in dealing with somebody like Maul. TPM Kenobi is hardly worth mentioning, and is the least of Maul's own combative feats.

I agree with Maul stomping Kenobi, but his morals would make him fight Kenobi first, if he isn't pressed against Skywalker. If he fights Skywalker, then Savage shouldn't be able to overwhelm Kenobi given his own propensity for Deflection which enabled him to repel telekinetic blasts from Anakin. That, and honestly, Anakin seems to be more inclined to utilize his powers in general. Maul and Savage tend to use their powers as a fallback option, not to outright wreck somebody from the onset. Neither does Anakin, typically, but he just has much in-combat usages.

Speed is not equal at all. Savage was getting overwhelmed by only a few dozen droids. Kenobi wasn't overwhelmed in RotS when he deflected fire from a ten-thousand-droid army. Based off his speed descriptions and feats in RotS, he should be clearly superior to Savage:

Obi-Wan exhibits sub-light reaction speeds:

Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.

But these particular pilots were far from merely human.

The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Obi-Wan shoots up so quickly it seems he vanished:

"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Kenobi forms a "wheel of lightning" out of his blade:

He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep - the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility - that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away ---

Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Obi-Wan riposts faster than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, fighting blindingly fast:

- and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

I haven't really seen Savage replicate these.

Hardly minimal. I still say Anakin is slightly ahead of Maul, but Savage's own terribly erratic combat style and lack of technique in general would indicate that my team is quite a bit more skilled. Yes, Savage has compensation for skill, but when you address skill, and solely skill, my team takes a solid lead. Kenobi and Skywalker are both well beyond Savage in terms of raw lightsaber skill.

Skill tends to take precedence over power in deciding the victor of a fight, and the gap in skill should be as large based on how unrefined Savage is. He's just strong, and even then, on Florrum, we saw how he couldn't utilize his power or strength against Kenobi when the latter scored a number of kicks and broke his knee. Martially speaking, Kenobi has the edge over Savage anyways.

So, frankly, I see Kenobi beating Savage for a majority, and Anakin beating Maul for a majority, and that's really it. Savage is strong, but Kenobi himself has faced strong opponents in his own right and can make himself immovable if Savage attempts to just overwhelm him. Kenobi having stood against Grievous, who is at least as strong as Savage, wields more blades, is significantly faster and is significantly more skilled, is particularly telling. Physically, I doubt Savage could defeat him, given how on Florrum, Obi-Wan was outright beating him. On Florrum, we also saw that he couldn't utilize his powers against Kenobi very effectively at all, and if he does manage to utilize a few small telekinetic bursts, Kenobi would be able to deflect them. So, Kenobi has the edge. Anakin is just better than Maul.

Addressing things the other way around, Maul would probably fight Kenobi than outright stomp him, and Anakin can defeat Savage every time by virtue of being superior in every category and outclassing Opress in most. Maul would only Choke Kenobi if he was desperate and saw Skywalker defeating Savage, honestly, and at that point, I'm not sure if it would even matter because Anakin can beat Maul for a small majority.

It's not infallible, but if they stand close, their own propensity for fighting together and their vastly superior synergistic advantages would matter. You also never addressed the electronic manipulation, which, in my opinion, would work for one or two rounds. All Anakin needs to do is distract them, and there's potential for that power to work.

Closing comments then, I guess. Throughout the debate, you've addressed the topic with enough skill to indicate that it is very debatable, and you've challenged me throughout the debate. While this fight is still highly arguable, I am still holding my team for a 6-7/10 victory, but I can understand your own disagreement with that.

And with that, I suppose, voting can begin. I'll call out the people who wanted to be called out, or seemed like it. @dccomicsrule2011@jedixman @wolverine08@whirlwind_33@iragexcudder @dondave

@shootingnova: Alrighty. Nice debate man. Now I know what Star Wars debates are really about on the vine.

@i_like_swords: Appreciate the compliments, and good discussion.

I think @monsterstomp and @penderor showed some interest aswell. If you want to vote - here it is.

Well, I apologize for missing them. Anybody is free to vote.

@shootingnova: I say we keep voting open for.. 4 days? Maybe a week? And shall we make it a rule that when voting people need to give a reason that is relevant to either of our posts, and not based on their own knowledge? We don't want Erkan coming in to vote for me just cause we both like Maul :p

@i_like_swords: Alright.

@deranged_midget@shroudofsorrow@beezlebub@ssjdarthplagueis Just in case any of you guys want to vote aswell.

If anybody wants me to reupload the scans, I can do that. Please don't judge the thread based on the scans being nearly unreadable :P

EDIT: Actually, I'll just fix them as quickly as possible.

Scans are fixed. They're just in the large format so they'll have to be in spoiler blocks.

I liked Nova's standpoint a bit more.

@i_like_swords: Dude, Maul has no fan on this forum. You will lose.

@erkan12: It's not all about who has more fans. It's about who debated better.

Wow. This is a great CAV.

Heh...... it's you again. How's it been going? And thanks.

Hardly. Maul's "badassery" imagery in TPM alone would be attractive to a number of users on this site, and I know this because I've seen it. And this has nothing to do with fanbase. It's about who debated better. That, and don't insult people by insinuating they would lose.

Appreciate the compliment.