@higorm will be debating for Azrael (feats for multiple variations of his armor will apply, due to general lack of showings)
I, Kaang, will be debating for Cardiac (armed with power staff, but no flight attachment)
Bio/powers:
I see no point in typing out a paragraph when I can just show his handbook page instead.
I also have a pretty large folder full of Cardiac scans. I'll select a few of them to showcase his capabilities.
For the record, his handbook description, like many handbook descriptions, is inaccurate. I really wouldn't put him at the 15 ton level. Spider-Man is a 10 tonner when he's not pissed off, and I don't think Cardiac is quite on Spidey's level. Based on his feats, I'd place his strength somewhere between 5 or 10 tons.
Cardiac's main advantages are his strength, durability, and long-range attacks. Azrael is around the 2-5 ton level, while Cardiac is more of a 5-10 tonner, and has managed to trade a few blows with guys like Spider-Man and Scorpion.
I don't know a lot about Azrael, but I'm anticipating having to admit that he has the advantage in speed/agility and fighting skill. Cardiac isn't a martial artist at all, and his best speed and agility feats only put him around Olympic level.
So what this really comes down to is speed vs strength. Jean-Paul is much more skilled, and is likely faster and more agile. Elias is a bit stronger, is very durable, and can deal out more damage long-range.
I'm really curious about the capabilities of Azrael's armor and weapons. How durable does his armor make him, and how good are the flaming sword and bundi daggers?
@kaang_the_watcher: Just a clarification, about Azrael's strength, as you said:
Azrael is around the 2-5 ton level, while Cardiac is more of a 5-10 tonner
Strength
Right at the end of his solo series, his strength went into meta human levels and he no longer needed his costume to access "The System." At this time, he is able to lift tree trunks and large boulders weighing an estimated 7-8 tons.
Feats:
So, while I agree with Cardiac's strength superiority, Azrael is also known for his physicals, and considering those feats, he shouldn't be that far behind his enemy here, not enough gap to place Elias in a comfortable advantage.
I'm really curious about the capabilities of Azrael's armor and weapons. How durable does his armor make him, and how good are the flaming sword and bundi daggers?
Durability
Using his suit, Azrael already manage to take and survive to bullets and explosions. Also survived 100 foot falls from cliffs into the water. Most of his adversaries in his series were regularly people packing super human strength, so he is a character who is used to take great amounts of punishment.
Feats:
Gear
All right, so it would seem that our characters are rather similar in several ways, but there are definitely some advantages to be made note of.
Those were some good feats for Azrael. Cardiac still has a strength advantage, but it is not huge.
Despite the impressiveness of some of Azrael's feats, I'm still inclined to give this advantage to Cardiac. He's been hit with some pretty serious stuff by Spider-Man, Rhino, and Scorpion (all of whom are stronger than him, and two of whom have no reason to ever hold back) without being taken down. He's really good at taking hits and still going strong.
I'd say they're roughly equal in this area, with Azrael maybe getting a small majority just because he tends to actually utilize his agility a bit more often in his fighting style.
This is one area where I'll have to admit that Jean-Paul has the advantage. He was, after all, a temporary Batman.
Major advantage to Cardiac here. Azrael's only ranged attack seems to be launching one of those flaming knives in his forearms. To be fair, it was powerful enough to slice through a tree, but that showing is still small beans compared to Cardiac's power blasts. And if Cardiac can avoid bullets (which I've shown he can) I don't think he has much to worry from a projectile blade.
Flaming knives vs bo staff. Small advantage to Azrael. Spider-Man was able to break Cardiac's staff, so it seems reasonable that a knife that can cut a tree could also cut the staff if given a good chance to apply pressure.
So in the end, it really boils down to strength/durability and long range attacks vs skill and close range weapons.
If Azrael is to beat Cardiac, he'll have two challenges to overcome. 1: close the gap between them without getting tagged by energy blasts. And 2: land enough hits in close range to beat a guy who is stronger and more durable than himself.
From Cardiac's perspective, he has to either blast his opponent away before he can close the gap,.or land enough hits in close range to beat a guy with more skill than himself.
Those were some good feats for Azrael. Cardiac still has a strength advantage, but it is not huge.
Agreed.
Despite the impressiveness of some of Azrael's feats, I'm still inclined to give this advantage to Cardiac. He's been hit with some pretty serious stuff by Spider-Man, Rhino, and Scorpion (all of whom are stronger than him, and two of whom have no reason to ever hold back) without being taken down. He's really good at taking hits and still going strong.
Once again I can't really argue against it. It's pretty clear that Cardiac's armor is superior to Azrael's in terms of durability, especially considering his Vibranium Mesh Skin. Although I must say that Jean Paul doesn't rely on his suit as much as Elias IMHO. Not to mention that blunt force damage isn't a way Azrael would choose to put him down, he's smart enough to realize that, the flaming blade combined with his strength should be enough to pierce through his durability.
I'd say they're roughly equal in this area, with Azrael maybe getting a small majority just because he tends to actually utilize his agility a bit more often in his fighting style.
Ok, moving on..
This is one area where I'll have to admit that Jean-Paul has the advantage. He was, after all, a temporary Batman.
Once again, there is nothing to discuss here.
Major advantage to Cardiac here. Azrael's only ranged attack seems to be launching one of those flaming knives in his forearms. To be fair, it was powerful enough to slice through a tree, but that showing is still small beans compared to Cardiac's power blasts. And if Cardiac can avoid bullets (which I've shown he can) I don't think he has much to worry from a projectile blade.
Well, yes, the advantage is quite clear, but nothing abyssal, I mean, since I'm using composite feats, it's time to present you a capability of Azrael gauntles, which consist in long range attack. It's called "Angel's wrath", which consists in a blast he projects from his gauntlets that are able to disrupt human's central nervous system through a magnetic mechanism. Check this out:
So, JPV can use this to neutralize the strike coming from his enemy or as a surprise attack since it's a random encounter and Cardiac has no clue of it's capabilities.
Flaming knives vs bo-staff. Small advantage to Azrael. Spider-Man was able to break Cardiac's staff, so it seems reasonable that a knife that can cut a tree could also cut the staff if given a good chance to apply pressure.
Yeah, I believe this would be a major problem for Cardiac if Azrael manage to close the gap to cut his staff. From this point I don't think he'd have many options avaiable to keep standing up to JPV fighting prowess. I guess this will be a key factor to determinate the winner.
So in the end, it really boils down to strength/durability and long range attacks vs skill and close range weapons.
That's for sure.
If Azrael is to beat Cardiac, he'll have two challenges to overcome. 1: close the gap between them without getting tagged by energy blasts. And 2: land enough hits in close range to beat a guy who is stronger and more durable than himself.
From Cardiac's perspective, he has to either blast his opponent away before he can close the gap,.or land enough hits in close range to beat a guy with more skill than himself.
I accept the fact that he is fast enough, agile and etc but I don't see he being that much fast, not enough to put him above Azrael. Even if he was close, it's not by much, considering Azrael is a guy who is often seen fighting quite fast and agile enemies as well, like Batman for example. Dealing with that kind of threats isn't new for him, it's something he is used to. As said before, he is a bullet-timer, being able to dodge gunfire, block and even catch projectiles from respected marksman characters such as Huntress. Next scans proves what I've just said:
2. Close range hits
I'd say that once in close range, the fight would turn to Azrael's favor, no matter how durable Cardiac is. Being more skilled by a considerable margin, I doubt he could manage to tag JPV unless he wants to. This is a guy who beat the batman and stalemated Deathstroke, I mean, this is more than enough to corroborate my statement. It would be just a matter of time really..
His fight against Bane can illustrate what I'm trying to say here. Keep im mind that he wasn't using his blades against him, so you could imagine that fight not lasting that longer. Also note how much pain he manage to take, including falling from a cliff to quickly emerge afterwards.
Now that brings me to some questions, like Cardiac's Weakness. I'd like to hear from you about this:
Since Azrael can provide him a good and long hard fight, also considering both of them are durable enough and can take a large amount of damage, it wouldn't be a matter of time until Cardiac start to over taxing and consequently losing the battle?
One last issue I'd like to bring to the table is:
Honestly, this isn't an aspect Cardiac can rely on. Azrael has a clear advantage and will be able to successfully use said skill over him. Azrael received training from Batman, so it's safe to say he is pretty much covered in this department. Not to mention he was The Batman himself back in the Knightfall story arc. He is more than capable of disappear right in front of his eyes.
Elias has any sort of stealth feats? Either by avoiding it or using it to his advantage?
1.Fight Mode. Yes, that's correct. But the things is that he won't need much time to realize Cardiac's main attack, which is blasting his enemies with the staff. Like I said, he's smart enough to realize that Elias is quite dependent on his staff so it's a matter of time for him to neutralize it. Also, it's more likely for Azrael to surprise his enemy than the opposite, given that JPV doesn't depend only on his blades.
2.Ranged Strike. I didn't mean he would dispute which blast is the best, I meant he'd use said weapon to neutralize a possible strike coming from Cardiac. I'm aware that Cardiac's blast is the superior weapon, the thing is Azrael is fast enough to dodge it since he's a bullet timer and all. JPV won't use this tactic as the main resource, but only an option among others.
3. Surprise Attack. About the surprise attack, I agree it work both ways, but the advantage still goes to Azrael, since Cardiac doesn't have much options if he loses the staff, the same can't be said about his enemy. Azrael can use either his blades, fists, flame sword, etc..
4. Staff durability. No I didn't, I was more aiming for the lack of versatility from Cardiac's part. Since both fighters are quite a hard warriors, at some point Azrael would end up cutting his staff or neutralizing it some how. From this point forward, the fight would more likely favor him. Now considering Azrael break the weapon, the chance of him acting the way you mentioned is possible but I don't see it happening. I mean, JPV isn't the backing off type, he most likely would keep attacking him with everything he got. Not to mention that one blast from him won't be enough to put Azrael down for good, especially when we are talking about someone who survives explosions.
5.Agility/Speed. I'm aware of that. But, Azrael is not only agile but also skilled, much more skilled than Cardiac, and that makes a huge difference when it comes to battle situations.
If Cardiac can hit freaking Spider-Man in close range (which he has), he can hit Azrael.
Well, that it true but we also need to remember and consider his morals. Peter Parker, most of the time is portrayed holding on instead of going all out showing and giving everything he got. I don't know much about Scorpion but he doesn't seem to be skilled, not enough to place him on the same level of most of Azrael's foes.
6. Cardiac Weakness. Alright, fair enough, I'll take your word on this one.
7. Stealth. I was expecting an answer like this. That's why I can bring a major stealth feat from him, against none other than the master in the art of disappearance, the goddam Batman!
"Where is he?" "He could be anywhere" - Not only Batman but also Nightwing and Robin were there and couldn't tell or see him disappearing either. Can you reall say he cannot do the same thing in this scenario?
Furthermore, you've already showcased Azrael's long-range attacks and said he can use them to try to block Cardiac's beta blasts and tag Cardiac from a distance. But he can't fire off long-range energy blasts and be super-duper stealthy at the same time, so which is it? Would he try to go all gunslinger and trade energy blasts with Cardiac, or would he try to go all ninja and somehow close the gap without being spotted? He can't do both.
No, Azrael's long-range attacks would only be used as an possible option, to neutralize his blats, not the ultimate answer for him. It would be a way to close the distance, where JPV is superior at H2H combat. He could use it to distract him and then use his stealth prowess to strike his enemy from the shadows for example. He would never trade blasts with him, that would be a stupid way of acting, and he packs no stupidity among his skill set.
And that's exactly where Azrael is going to get surprised too. Cardiac does indeed use his staff more than he uses other attack methods, but he is not at all dependent on it. And assuming that he is will leave Azrael open to being blasted when he thinks his enemy is helpless.
That's true but, I still don't see Cardiac being able to do much without his staff. As you said, Elias has recognized that the hand blasts are not as powerfull as when he uses the staff, so for someone like Azrael with enough durabilty to sustain an explosion, even if he got hit, that won't mean much for him. So Cardiac will be the most affected by the surprise between the two, since JPV can either dodge, neutalize a less powerfull blast or even sustain it and keep fighting up close where he is far superior at close combat.
I guess we're on different pages about what "neutralize the strike" means then. Because it sounds like you're saying that Azrael could use his own energy blasts to stop Cardiac's blasts in mid-air if necessary. But, TBH, I don't see that as possible at all. To be able to stop Cardiac's blast, Azrael's blast would have to be somewhere close to a comparable power level, and I really don't think that it is.
And yes, Azrael is a bullet-timer, but so are Spider-Man and Scorpion (to an even greater degree) and Cardiac has handled them just fine.
Like I said, that would be one of the possible ways to neutralize him. Azrael has many other options. For exemple, throw heavy stuff on him, considering this scenario greatly favors this kind of tactic. Or he could use his sword to compromise it, just like he did before in one instance. The main goal would be close the distance between them, and considering his agility/speed that would not be too hard.
He is strong and skilled enough to sucessfully perform those feats here against Cardiac.
The only option that Cardiac loses is his ability to use a melee weapon. He still has his fists and his energy blasts. You're seeming to say that Azrael will have a lot more options that Cardiac will have if the surprise attack works, but the only difference at all between then will be that Azrael will have close range weapons and Cardiac won't. That is as far as the differences in their options go.
Yes but, once unable to use his blast, the alternative will be fists, which according to you and Elias, less powerfull version in comparison to the staff. Azrael also has ranged attacks avaiable, not as standard but still possible, considering what the scenario provides to him, I can see him throwing something heavy but at the same time capable of flying at high speeds, like a manhole cover for example. I know that Cardiac can blast it off or dodge it like he did before against Spidey webs, but the purpose isn't hit him but distract for a aproximation. Azrael will still have the sword and blades at disposal.
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Well, it's certainly possible. Azrael's blades are pretty effective, for example, he was able to easily cut a concrete bridge in two slices. See scan:
When you have a combination of superhuman strength, at least 8 tons, with a bladed weapon, it's cutting capacity grows exponentially, especially when you have a skilled character using it.
I said that Cardiac will be vastly outmatched in melee combat because there's a clear skill gap between then. I agree with the other statements, comparable agility and speed, with he being stronger and more durable, and all that, but in the end of the day, what really decides the fight is skill. That's what's going to make the difference. As far as I'm concerned, Cardiac has never dealt with such skilled martial artists, who packs almost as much durability as he packs, at the same time being equally agile while using edged weapons, capable of easily slicing through big trees and concretes. When you add the skill factor, it's more likely to believe that Azrael will connect more hits, and not just that, he will connect the ones that really matters. The fatal ones.. Elias will be able to take and deliver some but he won't last standing in the end, he will fall eventually.
Yes, he does. Which is exactly why he tends to hold back his strength while using his speed and agility to their fullest potential. Spider-Man likes to be the guy who dances around the room untouched and then hits his enemies at his leisure. So since he tends to use his speed and agility to the max, its very impressive for someone else to be able to keep pace with him in combat.
I don't see that way. He holds everything, not just strength. Of course he tries to make sure to avoid most attacks, but saying he uses his full potential is too much, not in character. Also, I can see that in one of their fights, Peter wasn't aware of Cardiac's full capacity, when he said that he underestimate him..
The only reason he was able to disappear so effectively is because he threw a giant distraction in their face. He threw a giant hunk of scrap metal, and Batman and Nightwing were forced to turn their attention to it to avoid being crushed. But if Azrael tries the same thing here, it won't be nearly as effective. Cardiac owns the game when it comes to long range here. If Azrael shoots an energy blast to try to distract Cardiac, Cardiac will just sidestep it and shoot a bigger one right back. If Azrael throws a motorcyle or something at Cardiac, Cardiac won't have to shift his focus to make sure he gets out of the way. He'll just swat it out of the air without batting an eye. There's nothing Azrael can throw at him from long range that will take all of Cardiac's attention.
Also, cars explode. So, even if Azrael does manage to hide, Cardiac always has the option of turning all the available cover into explosives. That usually works pretty well at drawing people out.
Don't forget we are talking about Batman here, not a random foe. That's what makes a great stealth feat. There was 3 of them and just Azrael. He still manage to disappear right in front of them, inside the goddam Batcave!
If Batman wasn't able to detect JPV vanishing, what makes you think Cardiac would do any better? If Azrael throws a heavy object against him, he will have to deal with that, either by blasting it, or dodging it, doesn't matter, for a brief moment he'd have to draw his attention to it, he can't keep his always in two spots at the same time. A brief moment is all he needs to disappear. Once he does that, Cardiac will be in disadvantage. Considering he doesn't pack superhuman senses, there's no way he can assure the course of the battle. From ther it's all Azrael game to play.
Cars explode indeed, but there are not only cars avaiable for hiding, it's a fair large map with many options. If Elias start to explode everything, the way I see it, will only benefit JPV. He will be busy and distracted by the noise and everything while Azrael keeps track on him from distance, waiting for the perfect moment to strike him unnoticed.
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