Nova, Richard Rider, probably the most well-known and famous Nova Corpsmen, and also a member of the Annihilators He's a protector of the universe, and also a protector of earth, using the Nova Force he helps take down some of the most powerful villains Marvel knows.
After annihilation, it was discovered that all the other Nova Corpsmen were dead. Leaving Richard Rider as the sole Nova Force user in the universe, so he was than imbued with all the Nova Force energies from every other corpsmen making him much more powerful.
Richard gains the Full Nova Force.
Richard Rider has a wide variety of powers which consist of
These powers and abilities have been greatly increased after gaining full power to the Nova Force. Well although Richard has all of the Nova Force, he can't necessarily tap into all of it as it would be too much power and would drive him crazy. This has been stated by another thing Richard Rider will have in this battle. World Mind!
World Mind is all the knowledge, energy and power from the planet Xander, and Nova Corps. World Mind is what gave Richard the full Nova Force not to mention the same thing that keeps it's power in check. Being that Richard has all the Nova Force, World Mine speaks to him a lot, and often gives him strategic approaches and information in battle.
Now to get into what Richard has done with the Nova Force.
Before even inheriting the Nova Force, Richard was incredibly strong. He's not nearly as strong as the heavy hitters like Hulk, Wonder Man or Thor, but he can still do damage to beings of that level. Here he displays just that. A mind-controlled Thor is struck by Rider with such force that it sends him hurling and causes him to be rattled quite a bit. Whether it was because of the strike or the mind control running off, the Odinson surely felt such a hit.
This is impressive also because 1) Nova mostly relies on energy projection, so seeing him hurt Thor with physical strength shows he can hurt Firestorm in a physical, with a power he's weaker at and 2) This is before he got the full Nova Force, so he would be much stronger now.
Here is an example to display just that.
After obtaining the full Nova Force, Richard was doing incredible feats of strength to show that he can in fact hurt beings with incredibly durability.Firestorm would get overpowered quite easily if Rider goes in close. Rider has shown he's capable of hurting Xenith a Strontian. In a way they are like Marvel's versions of Kryptonians. Richard didn't just hurt her, he drew blood from her too. Though he did weaken her beforehand (mental dampener to take away her mental focus, loosing confidence and loosing power and invulnerability) , it should be known that her durability would still be above Firestorm's being able to go rounds with her cousin Gladiator herself.
To show how strong he is to an even greater degree, here is Nova Prime pulling 5 giant boats quite easily with nothing but ropes tied to his body.
If Rider gets close to Firestorm he can quite easily overpower him.
I believe that Rider can either match or overpower Firestorm's energy output which would allow him to take Firestorm in an area he's heavily versed in. While Firestorm does have some incredible fire power, it's not quite on the level of Rider's, so he may be on the defensive end of the battle if Rider is seriously letting it loose.
Here is how potent his energy blasts can be.
Yeah, that's a creature from the Cancerverse, and if you know the Cancerverse, you would know that the creatures and beings there are extremely powerful. Heck Captain America was way more powerful there than in the 616 universe. Even Lord Marvel was several times more powerful than Captain Marvel of the 616 universe. Thor better watch out.
As well as being an energy manipulator, Nova can also manipulate gravity to multiple effects. Although one way he really seems to like to use it is something called a Gravitational Pulse. Where he sends a pulse of gravitational energy towards an enemy and sends them hurling. This attack can be shot through his hand and throughout his body. It can also do a lot of damage
This is not the only thing Rider can do with his gravitational abilities though. He can put beings or objects in gravitational bubbles to trap them. Most likely can't hold Firestorm for long, but they can surely give Nova the time he needs to do anything else. Seeing as how he can easily make one, it's more than likely he can make multiple ones or just increase it's intensity.
He's not only powerful, but he can also take a hit if need be, and has shown time and time again that he's pretty damn durable. Firestorm isn't quite a physical being, but here is how durable Prime can be when physicals is mixed with energy blasts. The Silver Surfer has flat out bull-rushed Rider into the power below making a big explosion, and he got up as if it was nothing at all. That's real durability as the Surfer and Nova were also exerting energy going down.
Also Firestorm can fire blasts of fire or energy, which Rider can block with his force-fields. He's used his force-fields to block heat vision from a pissed off Gladiator, so it should be quite effective. He can also increase them in size and power.
Just so you get an idea of how powerful Gladiator's heat vision is, here are some feats and descriptions.
Yeah, and Rider blocked it from a pissed Gladiator.
I'm not going to lie, I don't know a whole lot on Firestorm other than he can fly, fire blasts of energy, and transmute things. I don't really know how fast he is, but one thing I know for sure is he's not faster than Nova Prime. He didn't get the name "The Human Rocket" for no reason. It's because he's insanely fast, and I mean insanely. Even before having the full Nova Force, Rider was already faster than light which was greatly increased as he gained the Nova Force. Just to give you a little glimpse as to how fast Nova's can travel. Here is Sam Alexander who is currently wielding a black Nova Helmet. He's not nearly as experienced as Rider nor is he even close to as powerful (Rider has all the Nova Force, while Sam would have a portion, the difference is vast), yet Sam was capable of traveling from one galaxy it seems to another. Nova Prime would be much faster than this.
That's the type of travel speed Rider has. He's a guy who likes to bull-rush his opponents too, so coming in at those speeds will do incredible damage. Rider's speed has always given him an advantage over most in battles. Rider has the potential to blitz Firestorm.
If you want an example of Rider blitzing, here he does it to Drax easily. He had no chance.
In fact he's so fast he can engage multiple opponents at the same time with ease.
Rider's strength coupled with his speed should allow him to overwhelm Firestorm. Seeing as he has force-fields and energy projection, he can block or counter Firestorm's blasts. There is also the fact that he's too fast so he'll just avoid most things.
I think that's enough for an opener.
Football player Ronnie Raymond and nuclear physicist Martin Stein were fused as a result of an accident in Stein's lab, thus creating the entity known as Firestorm. An extraordinarily powerful being, Firestorm could manipulate non-organic matter, fly at astounding speeds, and spew flames from his body. Frequent banter between Stein and Raymond was a hallmark of their adventures. Firestorm was a member of the Justice League of America.
Firestorm has been a member of the Justice League, and one of their most powerful members. He's fought the highest order of team-busters including Despero, Darkseid, and Anti-Monitor, and sometimes even defeating them. In this debate, I will demonstrate on why Nova Prime, though powerful, has nothing on the Nuclear Man.
The Firestorm Matrix has the energy of a big bang itself, and primarily it is used to restructure matter. However, everything is made up of matter, so with the right tweaks, a host of other powers become readily accessible to Firestorm as well.
Firestorm is not known for his physicals, but my first order of business will be to show that he is more than capable of contending with Nova Prime in that category. However, this is not what will be the deciding factor in this debate. Firestorm's reaction time, shields, intangibility, and teleportation make him extremely difficult to tag, even for Nova, while his energy manipulation will ensure that Nova's blasts will do nothing, or even hurt Rider.
Transmutation and constructs will ultimately prevail in this debate. Firestorm often traps his opponent in a sort of atomic cage, or and I see no reason that Nova would not be susceptible to such an attack. He can immobilize Nova with promethium, or in the worst case scenario, BFR Rider to the Matrix.
@heirtothekingdom: you're up mate! Let's give these people a show!
@thenewbluebeetle007: Great opener!
Firestorm is not known for his physicals, but my first order of business will be to show that he is more than capable of contending with Nova Prime in that category.
I'm guessing as the battle progresses you'll highlight some of Firestorm's feats. Though I really don't seem him being as fast as Nova Prime or capable of keeping up with him throughout the battle. Rider's speed is pretty much unmatched by most, and I mean that entirely.
Just to give you an indication of how fast Prime is, and how difficult it will be for Firestorm to keep up. Here is a Nova corpsman who is far weaker than Prime bltizing multiple phalanx scouts. He's doing this quite easily too.
I also really doubt Firestorm is anywhere on Nova's physical range either. Firestorm seems to be more of a ranged fighter, oppose to Prime who is kind of a mixture of both, which in fact gives him an advantage. He can take the fight physically and range. Physically he out-classes Firestorm, and ranged he can contend or match with him. Possibly even overpower him. The Nova Force greatly enhanced Rider's strength after obtaining it to the point he could toss a Technarch. They are quite big, and have been capable of ripping stars apart. Most likely smaller stars, but stars nonetheless. Rider easily tosses one.
As I see it, Firestorm can't amplify his strength to Prime's levels. So he will always be weaker than Rider, and seeing as how Rider can gain more power from the Nova Force the more he taps into it, than he's going to be in more of a struggle.
However, this is not what will be the deciding factor in this debate. Firestorm's reaction time, shields, intangibility, and teleportation make him extremely difficult to tag, even for Nova, while his energy manipulation will ensure that Nova's blasts will do nothing, or even hurt Rider.
Prime pretty much has the same abilities as Firestorm, but he also has abilities which could cancel out those ones too. Like using his gravity manipulation to make teleporting difficult, and such.
Firestorm doesn't have any insane reaction speed from what I know that suggests he's capable of reacting to most of Rider's attacks. His shields can actually be destroyed by powerful striking power or energy projection which Rider does indeed have. It may hold up against a single attack that Rider let's loose, but when he ups the power. Firestorm's shields won't be able to sustain it. Even before his Nova Force upgrade, Rider could do things like this to Namor.
Your go.
@heirtothekingdom: let's get this started!
I'm guessing as the battle progresses you'll highlight some of Firestorm's feats. Though I really don't seem him being as fast as Nova Prime or capable of keeping up with him throughout the battle. Rider's speed is pretty much unmatched by most, and I mean that entirely.
Here's the thing: Firestorm doesn't need to be as fast as Nova Prime. If he can react and get his shields up, then he will certainly be able to defeat Prime in the ways I mentioned in my intro. More on that later.
Just to give you an indication of how fast Prime is, and how difficult it will be for Firestorm to keep up. Here is a Nova corpsman who is far weaker than Prime bltizing multiple phalanx scouts. He's doing this quite easily too.
And exactly how fast are these Phalanx scouts?
I also really doubt Firestorm is anywhere on Nova's physical range either. Firestorm seems to be more of a ranged fighter, oppose to Prime who is kind of a mixture of both, which in fact gives him an advantage. He can take the fight physically and range. Physically he out-classes Firestorm, and ranged he can contend or match with him. Possibly even overpower him. The Nova Force greatly enhanced Rider's strength after obtaining it to the point he could toss a Technarch. They are quite big, and have been capable of ripping stars apart. Most likely smaller stars, but stars nonetheless. Rider easily tosses one.
I seriously doubt that Nova Prime will be able to outclass Firestorm in either category.
Regarding physicals, Firestorm has been shown to be extremely strong and fast, with superb reaction times. Let's look at Firestorm Volume 3, #35 to sample his physical prowess.
Here, Firestorm trades blows with an amped Kalibak for multiple pages - especially impressive considering the same Kalibak defeated Orion in one shot. Orion, for reference, has Superman level strength and durability, perhaps even surpassing Supes.
He then oneshots Kalibak with a blast.
As I see it, Firestorm can't amplify his strength to Prime's levels. So he will always be weaker than Rider, and seeing as how Rider can gain more power from the Nova Force the more he taps into it, than he's going to be in more of a struggle.
I don't really see why Firestorm would want to go physical in this fight, considering he is a ranged combatant. He could easily teleport away, or go intangible to avoid Nova Prime's attacks. Just to show that Firestorm has what it takes to react:
Firestorm, who just got out of the hospital, casually reacts to the beams of Dr. Light. In case you didn't know, Light controls, well, light, and his blasts move at the speed of light. So the fact that a weakened Firestorm was able to react to such a blast from a few feet away means that he can easily react to Nova and go intangible / get his shields up / teleport.
Prime pretty much has the same abilities as Firestorm, but he also has abilities which could cancel out those ones too. Like using his gravity manipulation to make teleporting difficult, and such.
And how exactly would gravity make teleportation more difficult? That doesn't make much sense.
Firestorm doesn't have any insane reaction speed from what I know that suggests he's capable of reacting to most of Rider's attacks. His shields can actually be destroyed by powerful striking power or energy projection which Rider does indeed have. It may hold up against a single attack that Rider let's loose, but when he ups the power. Firestorm's shields won't be able to sustain it. Even before his Nova Force upgrade, Rider could do things like this to Namor.
I'd wager that a weakened Firestorm reacting at the speed of light is enough to say he could react. His shields easily withstood the blasts of Killer Frost and Dr. Light, who have hurt Wonder Woman and Superman in the past (respectively). And besides, Firestorm isn't going to just let you fire at him. He's going to get out of the way, or teleport, or absorb the energy.
Well, for starters, Nova can't do anything to him. What if Firestorm were to go intangible, and stay that way while absorbing Nova's energy based attacks? Could Nova feasibly hit him?
And Firestorm will win this fight like he wins most of his other fights: transmutation.
A viable opening move would be to cage Rider.
Firestorm can just turn the air around Nova to solid titanium or, if Nova starts to break out, promethium. Either one should be effective, as Firestorm can simply blast a now-immobile Nova until he has been defeated.
Now, obviously, there is a lot more Firestorm can do, and as counters are made and the debate goes on, I will bring up Firestorm's other attacks. But this is round 1, and we're still getting a feel for each others' characters.
@heirtothekingdom: you're up!
Here's the thing: Firestorm doesn't need to be as fast as Nova Prime. If he can react and get his shields up, then he will certainly be able to defeat Prime in the ways I mentioned in my intro. More on that later.
You are correct, though the speed difference between the two is quite big. I mean don't get me wrong, Firestorm is fast in his own right, but Rider's whole character kind of revolves around speed. He may get his shields up in time to shield against Rider's attacks, though it may not hold. Not to mention if it's destroyed, Rider can easily adapt to the situation and just move faster to get there before shields are up. It's better to just show you the sheer speed advantage Nova holds over Firestorm.
While fighting Sphinx, Nova is overwhelmed by the powerful KA stones Sphinx possesses. So what does he do? He grabs the stones at extremely fast speeds out of Sphinx's helmet, flies to the sun, tosses it in there, and returns to the battlefield in no time at all. He moves so fast that by time he starts his sentence on earth, he finishes it when he reaches the sun. This indicates he probably reached the sun before he could finish a sentence.
Nova should be fully capable of reaching Firestorm before his shields are even put up. Also I would like to note that this is Nova before he got the Nova Force so he is much faster than that now.
And exactly how fast are these Phalanx scouts?
It's not really indicated, but there was a number of them. They have fought the Kree, and X-Men in the past though.
I seriously doubt that Nova Prime will be able to outclass Firestorm in either category.
He definitely out-classes Firestorm in physical strength as he has shown much better feats of lifting and striking than he has. I mean Firestorm does have some rather impressive striking feats, but none which would put him above Rider. As for energy projection, that one is more debatable.
Regarding physicals, Firestorm has been shown to be extremely strong and fast, with superb reaction times. Let's look at Firestorm Volume 3, #35 to sample his physical prowess.
Here, Firestorm trades blows with an amped Kalibak for multiple pages - especially impressive considering the same Kalibak defeated Orion in one shot. Orion, for reference, has Superman level strength and durability, perhaps even surpassing Supes.
I think this scan doesn't indicate exactly what you just said.
He then oneshots Kalibak with a blast
This part is apparent and quite impressive if I might add. To knock out a being of that level with a single blast shows his power.
That blasting power is troublesome, but like Firestorm, Rider can make force-fields. Which I might add can possibly be even more durable. Here his force-fields take repeated blasts from Blaastar who is in possession of the Cosmic Control Rod.
Just so you don't think the Cosmic Control Rod is some featless artifact which amplifies power, here is what another character has done with it when tapping into probably more power. Johnny Storm used it to amplify his fire control to the point he could melt through Celestial amour and cut off one their arms.
Blaastar wasn't as powerful as Johnny was with it, but he did posesses it in the showing above. It would still put him at extremely high levels.
I don't really see why Firestorm would want to go physical in this fight, considering he is a ranged combatant. He could easily teleport away, or go intangible to avoid Nova Prime's attacks. Just to show that Firestorm has what it takes to react:
It's not really what he wants here. Rider likes to fly up to characters and knock them around just as much as he does blasting them, so Firestorm is going to have to deal with it. He can teleport, but I can guarantee Rider could reach him before he does that. This is even more true as the fact that he can boost his combat speed making it so he can move faster in combat. This would make it so he can strike and land more blows on Firestorm whether he tries to evade them or teleport. I mean it's not hard to believe the human rocket can reach Firestorm before he teleports.
As for intangibility, Prime can simply just stay in a force-field until Firestorm comes out or simply attack him before he turns intangible. I don't think Firestorm can attack while he's intangible, so he'll have to come out eventually.
Firestorm, who just got out of the hospital, casually reacts to the beams of Dr. Light. In case you didn't know, Light controls, well, light, and his blasts move at the speed of light. So the fact that a weakened Firestorm was able to react to such a blast from a few feet away means that he can easily react to Nova and go intangible / get his shields up / teleport.
I've seen Doctor light being used multiple times on this site as an indication of beings have faster than light reaction speeds because they either dodge or block his light speed attack. This isn't correct. It is true that he can fire blasts of light which move obviously at the speed of light, but his bodily speed isn't on that level. When Doctor Light turned and was ready to blast Firestorm that speed was well below light speed, it's once his attack leaves him that it's light speed as the light is by itself. It's a common misconception when using Doctor Light's attacks as a speed feat. Firestorm does not have faster than light reaction speeds while weakened, let alone when he's healthy. His best bet at avoiding Nova is intangibility, and even with that he'll have to eventually come out.
And how exactly would gravity make teleportation more difficult? That doesn't make much sense.
As I've shown, Nova can make gravitational bubbles which can contain beings in them. I'm not sure whether Firestorm could teleport within one of them, so I said that. There is also the fact that he can trap Firestorm in a gravity field and increase it's intensity to 20x normal. I think it would be rather difficult to telport in those conditions, don't you?
Whether Firestorm teleports by moving his body one place to the other, by opening portals, or if he can even teleport out of the gravity field, he'll still have trouble doing it. Nova will have time to make a strategy, prepare, or attack while he's in it.
I'd wager that a weakened Firestorm reacting at the speed of light is enough to say he could react.
As I've shown in an above post, Firestorm doesn't have faster than light reaction speeds because he supposedly reacted to Doctor Light's light blast. Doctor Light's blast are faster than light, not himself. Meaning Firestorm would just have to put up his shield as soon as Arthur fired. There is the fact that he had his shields up already because he was blocking Killer Frosts his attack before with one hand. All he did was put an extra hand up because it was probably too much for him to handle with one. In the end all he really did was block Arthur's attack with a shield that was already up, at most he did was turn his body a bit clockwise.
His shields easily withstood the blasts of Killer Frost and Dr. Light, who have hurt Wonder Woman and Superman in the past (respectively).
It is indeed doing just that, but I would like to note that Nova Prime has more power than Killer Frost and Doctor Light together. He's pretty easily blasted around the Revengers (Cancerverses version of the Avengers) who are extremely powerful. As I said in an earlier post, the Cancervese beings are just as powerful as their counterparts if not more powerful. As you can see Revengers Thor is among them.
And besides, Firestorm isn't going to just let you fire at him. He's going to get out of the way, or teleport, or absorb the energy.
That's true, but that's whether he can do that in time. I believe he can, but more times than not? Not likely.
Well, for starters, Nova can't do anything to him. What if Firestorm were to go intangible, and stay that way while absorbing Nova's energy based attacks? Could Nova feasibly hit him?
When has Firestorm ever absorbed anything while he was intangible, that's probably the first of ever hearing a character who could do just that. Can I see a scan of that? Though even if it was true, you know how much power Nova has? He has the entire Nova Force. I don't think Firestorm could simply absorb that all out of him.
And Firestorm will win this fight like he wins most of his other fights: transmutation.
A viable opening move would be to cage Rider.
The difference between Orion and Nova Prime is Rider often utilizes his speed meaning he could easily evade that happening to him oppose to Orion. There is also the fact that he can fire omni-directional gravitational pulses to destroy that titanium block and release him.
Keep in mind those were all other Nova Corpsman. Though not nearly as powerful as him, they were still Nova's.
Firestorm can just turn the air around Nova to solid titanium or, if Nova starts to break out, promethium. Either one should be effective, as Firestorm can simply blast a now-immobile Nova until he has been defeated.
I think i'm going to need some scans to show he can do it out of thin air. I thought Firestorm's whole thing was transmuting one thing into another. Doesn't he actually need material to work with? Even if he did, making Promethium out of thin air doesn't seem likely as he's never done that before. Even titanium, as in that scan he used the metal Orion was holding up to transmute into the metal box around him. Only way I see Rider can stuck in that is if it's actually Promethium and that may be a stretch in itself.
Now, obviously, there is a lot more Firestorm can do, and as counters are made and the debate goes on, I will bring up Firestorm's other attacks. But this is round 1, and we're still getting a feel for each others' characters.
Sounds good.
Your turn.
You are correct, though the speed difference between the two is quite big. I mean don't get me wrong, Firestorm is fast in his own right, but Rider's whole character kind of revolves around speed. He may get his shields up in time to shield against Rider's attacks, though it may not hold. Not to mention if it's destroyed, Rider can easily adapt to the situation and just move faster to get there before shields are up. It's better to just show you the sheer speed advantage Nova holds over Firestorm.
While fighting Sphinx, Nova is overwhelmed by the powerful KA stones Sphinx possesses. So what does he do? He grabs the stones at extremely fast speeds out of Sphinx's helmet, flies to the sun, tosses it in there, and returns to the battlefield in no time at all. He moves so fast that by time he starts his sentence on earth, he finishes it when he reaches the sun. This indicates he probably reached the sun before he could finish a sentence.
Nova should be fully capable of reaching Firestorm before his shields are even put up. Also I would like to note that this is Nova before he got the Nova Force so he is much faster than that now.
Here's the thing about the speed advantage: Nova almost never blitzes with his full speed straight away, and he has been tagged my much slower beings than Firestorm.
For example, in Nova, volume 4, issue 3, Nova was tagged by Venom, Radioactive Man, and Penance. Those are three characters that probably aren't even faster than bullets, and yet they all got hits on Nova.
9 issues in the same series later, he was tagged by a Technarch, something that has no speed feats whatsoever.
I can post other instances of him being tagged by lesser beings all day. And before you accuse me of lowballing, I am simply pointing out that Rider does not consistently utilize his great speed in combat. I highly doubt that in character, he would go superluminal or above. In the blitz scenario, that's what he'd need to do.
I think this scan doesn't indicate exactly what you just said.
- For starters, Firestorm's attack did little to nothing to Kalibak. It did phase him quite a bit at first, but it's quite clear it did nearly no damage. That's not impressive in my opinion as you stated he was trading blows. What it looks like to me is Firestorm is going all out on Kalibak physically, and he's doing little to no damage.
- Second off, Kalibak didn't even strike Firestorm so we don't know if he could have one-shotted him or not. (I would believe he could if he could one-shot Orion)
- As for Firestorm showing superb reaction speed, it's not apparent here either. If his furry of blows was to show that, it wasn't that good. Kalibak isn't fast at all, and is quite almost always being out-paced when fighting beings with speed.
1. It did phase him, meaning that it did do something... no, it didn't knock him out but the punches still hurt him.
2. Here you go:
Firestorm remains conscious after this, and later defeats him. His durability ostensibly eclipses Orion's by this feat.
3. His reaction speeds aren't apparent here, but they are in other showings.
That blasting power is troublesome, but like Firestorm, Rider can make force-fields. Which I might add can possibly be even more durable. Here his force-fields take repeated blasts from Blaastar who is in possession of the Cosmic Control Rod.
Just so you don't think the Cosmic Control Rod is some featless artifact which amplifies power, here is what another character has done with it when tapping into probably more power. Johnny Storm used it to amplify his fire control to the point he could melt through Celestial amour and cut off one their arms.
Blaastar wasn't as powerful as Johnny was with it, but he did posesses it in the showing above. It would still put him at extremely high levels.
I don't see how you can use Human Torch's feats with the Control Rod for Blastaar's. Show me Blaastar's own feats and then we can talk.
Firestorm has planet-busting power in his blasts; it's going to be extremely tough to keep the shields up if he decides to go that route (which he probably won't).
"A comet that came within six hours of wiping of wiping out the planet". This indicates that Elemental Firestorm is capable of wiping out planets with his blasts. We know that the comet refers to Firestorm because on the very next page, the light dissipates and it turns out to be Firestorm.
I'll need to see planetary level feats for your shields.
It's not really what he wants here. Rider likes to fly up to characters and knock them around just as much as he does blasting them, so Firestorm is going to have to deal with it. He can teleport, but I can guarantee Rider could reach him before he does that. This is even more true as the fact that he can boost his combat speed making it so he can move faster in combat. This would make it so he can strike and land more blows on Firestorm whether he tries to evade them or teleport. I mean it's not hard to believe the human rocket can reach Firestorm before he teleports.
As for intangibility, Prime can simply just stay in a force-field until Firestorm comes out or simply attack him before he turns intangible. I don't think Firestorm can attack while he's intangible, so he'll have to come out eventually.
He may be able to reach Firestorm before he teleports, but will he? In character, Rider isn't going to bullrush Firestorm with all he's got. Especially when Firestorm has FTL reflexes.
And to debunk your claim of being unable to attack while intangible:
Firestorm first phases through a window while simultaneously turning a crook's gun into a cucumber, and stays intangible as they shoot him. I have more instances of using intangibility and transmutation in combination if you're not convinced, but this should be enough.
I've seen Doctor light being used multiple times on this site as an indication of beings have faster than light reaction speeds because they either dodge or block his light speed attack. This isn't correct. It is true that he can fire blasts of light which move obviously at the speed of light, but his bodily speed isn't on that level. When Doctor Light turned and was ready to blast Firestorm that speed was well below light speed, it's once his attack leaves him that it's light speed as the light is by itself. It's a common misconception when using Doctor Light's attacks as a speed feat. Firestorm does not have faster than light reaction speeds while weakened, let alone when he's healthy. His best bet at avoiding Nova is intangibility, and even with that he'll have to eventually come out.
Doctor Light did not "turn". He was already in attacking position, as shown in the panel above. The feat makes him FTL in reaction speeds, and this was when he was weakened.
Firestorm doesn't have to "come out" of intangibility. He can keep attacking Nova while Rider can't affect him.
As I've shown in an above post, Firestorm doesn't have faster than light reaction speeds because he supposedly reacted to Doctor Light's light blast. Doctor Light's blast are faster than light, not himself. Meaning Firestorm would just have to put up his shield as soon as Arthur fired. There is the fact that he had his shields up already because he was blocking Killer Frosts his attack before with one hand. All he did was put an extra hand up because it was probably too much for him to handle with one. In the end all he really did was block Arthur's attack with a shield that was already up, at most he did was turn his body a bit clockwise.
He does, because Light was already in position to attack. And besides, he's tagged Kid Flash in the past.
And this is Firestorm when he just received his powers too - he had little to no experience using them. In addition, this is New 52 Firestorm, significantly weaker than his Pre-52 counterpart.
As I've shown, Nova can make gravitational bubbles which can contain beings in them. I'm not sure whether Firestorm could teleport within one of them, so I said that. There is also the fact that he can trap Firestorm in a gravity field and increase it's intensity to 20x normal. I think it would be rather difficult to telport in those conditions, don't you?
Whether Firestorm teleports by moving his body one place to the other, by opening portals, or if he can even teleport out of the gravity field, he'll still have trouble doing it. Nova will have time to make a strategy, prepare, or attack while he's in it.
No, I don't, and there are no feats to say that increased gravity hinders teleportation.
It is indeed doing just that, but I would like to note that Nova Prime has more power than Killer Frost and Doctor Light together. He's pretty easily blasted around the Revengers (Cancerverses version of the Avengers) who are extremely powerful. As I said in an earlier post, the Cancervese beings are just as powerful as their counterparts if not more powerful. As you can see Revengers Thor is among them.
So? Killer Frost has "blasted around" Wonder Woman, and Dr. Light has done the same to Superman, beings comparable to Thor in durability.
When has Firestorm ever absorbed anything while he was intangible, that's probably the first of ever hearing a character who could do just that. Can I see a scan of that? Though even if it was true, you know how much power Nova has? He has the entire Nova Force. I don't think Firestorm could simply absorb that all out of him.
Why would he need to be tangible to absorb the energy? That makes no sense.
Each and every one of Firestorm's abilities comes from matter manipulation. He goes intangible by reducing the density of his own molecules. He blasts by expelling energy out of his hands. He uses size shifting by enlarging his molecules. So logically, if he could transmute himself to intangibility, he could use all of his other powers while intangible.
And if he couldn't absorb it while tangible, he could simply transmute the attacks into something harmless.
Here he transmutes Blue Devil's energy attack into the road, meaning he could do the same to Nova's blasts.
The difference between Orion and Nova Prime is Rider often utilizes his speed meaning he could easily evade that happening to him oppose to Orion. There is also the fact that he can fire omni-directional gravitational pulses to destroy that titanium block and release him.
Keep in mind those were all other Nova Corpsman. Though not nearly as powerful as him, they were still Nova's.
Hm, he might be able to do this. But what if Firestorm were to transmute Nova directly? As in turn him into cement or water? Does Nova have any defense for that?
I think i'm going to need some scans to show he can do it out of thin air. I thought Firestorm's whole thing was transmuting one thing into another. Doesn't he actually need material to work with?
No. Anything that he has seen, he can transmute. He has also made air in space (essentially, out of nothing), so he doesn't need a material to work with.
Even if he did, making Promethium out of thin air doesn't seem likely as he's never done that before. Even titanium, as in that scan he used the metal Orion was holding up to transmute into the metal box around him.
Before the fight, Firestorm transmuted the arch into lead instead of stone, because Orion was about to throw it at him. He did no such thing, and he's transmuted things out of thin air in the past when the material was not readily available.
Honestly at this point I don't even feel the need to bring up Firestorm's other abilities - transmutation and blasts counter everything.
He can transmute Nova's blasts into bubbles.
He can blast Nova until he dies - and he tagged Kid Flash, so I think it's fair to say he should be able to tag Nova.
Thus, Firestorm wins.
Here's the thing about the speed advantage: Nova almost never blitzes with his full speed straight away, and he has been tagged my much slower beings than Firestorm.
If your significantly faster than your opponent, you wouldn't need to utilize all of your speed to blitz them. The Flash is much faster than almost everyone he faces, yet he doesn't need to go full speed to blitz them. Not to mention being tagged by slower beings doesn't make him look any less faster as he's still done it. If Rider is serious he's going to blitz Firestorm and there won't be much Firestorm can do against it. He lacks the physicality to actually do much back and he won't be capable of using his intangibility and such before get slapped around.
For example, in Nova, volume 4, issue 3, Nova was tagged by Venom, Radioactive Man, and Penance. Those are three characters that probably aren't even faster than bullets, and yet they all got hits on Nova.
He's also been capable of easily dodging Venom before too.
We all know that he operates on levels highly above those guys, so let's not try to say he's not consistently above them.
9 issues in the same series later, he was tagged by a Technarch, something that has no speed feats whatsoever.
Well if you look at how big a Technarch can be, it's not any less impressive that it Rider. It's quite big meaning it would be harder to dodge a strike coming from it. Here is a scan for the voters when they see how big a Technarch is and how being struck by one isn't too bad.
I can post other instances of him being tagged by lesser beings all day. And before you accuse me of lowballing, I am simply pointing out that Rider does not consistently utilize his great speed in combat. I highly doubt that in character, he would go superluminal or above. In the blitz scenario, that's what he'd need to do.
In a way you are kind of low-balling, I mean yes he can be tagged I've stated that. Even a Flash can be tagged, but it's just that they can dodge most of the attacks sent at them. Showing scans of Rider doesn't really take away from his insane speed as when he wishes to, it's quite hard to land a blow on him as he can quite literally evade it without too much trouble. The scans of the beings who've tagged him fought Richard when he wasn't too serious. Richard will fight Firestorm seriously as his power is very high, and regardless of what you rank his speed it's still much above Firestorm's. Rider is going to land more attacks than Firestorm can evade or counter. By the way I can easily show scans of Firestorm being tagged by a lot slower too, but I won't do that.
1. It did phase him, meaning that it did do something... no, it didn't knock him out but the punches still hurt him.
Just because something phases someone, doesn't mean it did any damage. He punched Kalibak multiple times, and at most all he did was get the New God's attention. It's not like it's anything bad, Firestorm isn't know for his physical strength anyways. The attack didn't nothing other than sway Kalibak's body around. It reminds me of when Carol Danvers punched Doc Green recently in Avengers, she' punched him around yet it did literally nothing. Same concept here.
2. Here you go:
Firestorm remains conscious after this, and later defeats him. His durability ostensibly eclipses Orion's by this feat.
Don't tell me you actually believe such a thing. Firestorm is in no way more durable than Orion, nor has he even been. Orion has always been shown to have durability on the level of Superman, sometimes above, yet you wish to disclaim all of that because Firestorm took more punches than Orion did from an amped Kalibak? For starters, I'm pretty sure that Kalibak struck Orion much harder than he did Firestorm there because he knows his capabilities and durability and the fact that he's a bigger threat. It's even more clear that Firestorm is capable of taking multiple blows and not falling which would mean he could take a shot which one-shotted Orion. That doesn't sound right in any way, and I think you know it too. Also one-showing isn't enough to showcase Firestorm's superiorty in durability to Orion, not that is.
3. His reaction speeds aren't apparent here, but they are in other showings.
Can I get some of those showings, because i'm hearing you say he can react to most of Nova Prime's attacks, yet there hasn't been evidence.
I don't see how you can use Human Torch's feats with the Control Rod for Blastaar's. Show me Blaastar's own feats and then we can talk.
Wait, what? When did I do that? I showed Human Torch'es feats with it to give you an idea of the capabilities of the Rod, not to say it's levels apply to everyone who wields it. Blaastar wasn't as powerful with it as Johnny was, but he was still really powerful. He was capable of taking blasts from two Nova corpsmen without moving an inch, than quite easily one-shotting them with a single energy blasts. Something he wouldn't be capable of doing so easily without it.
As you can see, the blast that was capable of knocking down the Nova Corpsmen was easily blocked by Rider with a force-field. I think that should suffice.
Firestorm has planet-busting power in his blasts; it's going to be extremely tough to keep the shields up if he decides to go that route (which he probably won't).
Firestorm does not have planetary destruction level blasts, and it's not like he ever has. I never got why people think destruction capablities for a blasts shows how powerful it is. I can have the most powerful blasts which just vaporizes Thanos and you can have one that destroys a planet, and mine would still be more powerful. The destruction from an attack shouldn't matter much unless it's physical in my opinion.
"A comet that came within six hours of wiping of wiping out the planet". This indicates that Elemental Firestorm is capable of wiping out planets with his blasts. We know that the comet refers to Firestorm because on the very next page, the light dissipates and it turns out to be Firestorm.
All I see is a white light getting bigger which each panel. Nothing shows a planet getting destroyed, so no this doesn't prove much.
I'll need to see planetary level feats for your shields.
I would believe force-fields easily tanking a blast from a Cosmic Control Rod Blastaar would be enough, but here is something more impressive. Rider has produced a force-field which protected him from Galactus's blast which spread out across the solar system and took out the Annihilation Wave in almost everything else. Yes I said a solar system. Yet, Rider's force-field tanked it.
Even if Firestorm had planetary energy blasts, this is beyond even his limits. I'm not saying he can't get pass prime's shielding, because he can, but it will cause him much trouble.
He may be able to reach Firestorm before he teleports, but will he? In character, Rider isn't going to bullrush Firestorm with all he's got. Especially when Firestorm has FTL reflexes.
Better yet, does Firestorm even teleport in combat, or is it simply a means of transportation. In all honesty, Rider bull-rushing is much more consistent than Firestorm teleporting. He literally bull-rushes in every other fight, how is it not in-character? He's bull-rushed Gladiator, Silver Surfer, Venom, Moonstone, Darkhawk, Thanos, and much more. It's in-character. Nova Prime is much faster than Firestorm, especially it's not lookin good on your part as you haven't shown anything otherwise. Where's your speed feats at? Most notably Firestorms acclaimed faster than light reflexes?
And to debunk your claim of being unable to attack while intangible:
Firestorm first phases through a window while simultaneously turning a crook's gun into a cucumber, and stays intangible as they shoot him. I have more instances of using intangibility and transmutation in combination if you're not convinced, but this should be enough.
You know he didn't do those at the same time, the scan even shows that he's doing one after the next. He's not transmuting while intangible. He phased through the window than transmuted the gun. They shot after him, in-which he turned intangible. In all honestly, instead of using that incorrect context, you could have used that as a speed feat. Firestorm turning intangible before bullets strike him.
Doctor Light did not "turn". He was already in attacking position, as shown in the panel above. The feat makes him FTL in reaction speeds, and this was when he was weakened.
C'mon, Firestorm already had his shield up, it's not like he activated it. It's nothing special as all he did was react to Arthur before he could fire the blast. He was in attacking postion, but he didn't have his energy up or anything. Firestorm just literally turned slightly in his direction. Not close to light speed reaction speeds. People love to throw out light speeds like it's nothing. Whether he is weakened or not, he doesn't have faster than light reaction speeds.
Firestorm doesn't have to "come out" of intangibility. He can keep attacking Nova while Rider can't affect him.
You stated this, attempted to show it, yet it's untrue and hasn't been properly shown by you, so no he cannot. He's going to get struck by Prime.
He does, because Light was already in position to attack. And besides, he's tagged Kid Flash in the past.
That first sentence doesn't mean anything, just because he was in position doesn't mean he was any quicker on the draw. It's his attack that's faster than light, not Arthur himself. By the way the scan shows Kid Flash sending multiple strikes at Firestorm in-which it apparently shows he couldn't react to them. He had to take multiple blows to land one. By the way, Kid Flash isn't faster than light in the New 52 yet, while Richard has been before even receiving the Nova Force.
No, I don't, and there are no feats to say that increased gravity hinders teleportation.
Alright.
So? Killer Frost has "blasted around" Wonder Woman, and Dr. Light has done the same to Superman, beings comparable to Thor in durability.
Nova Prime's durability is different from those guys when being compared to tanking energy blasts. (Other than Thor). Superman and Wonder Woman are more durable on the physical side, and they never were hurt majorly by them.
Why would he need to be tangible to absorb the energy? That makes no sense.
My mistake, but Rider can quite easily do the same.
Each and every one of Firestorm's abilities comes from matter manipulation. He goes intangible by reducing the density of his own molecules. He blasts by expelling energy out of his hands. He uses size shifting by enlarging his molecules. So logically, if he could transmute himself to intangibility, he could use all of his other powers while intangible.
That doesn't make sense, just because all of his abilities come from one, doesn't mean he can use them all at once. It hasn't been shown, which means he obviously can't do it then. If you show me he can than I can think otherwise, but as of now I don't think so.
And if he couldn't absorb it while tangible, he could simply transmute the attacks into something harmless.
The only thing Prime couldn't replicate, but Rider could do something Firestorm can't, and that's open Stargates. He can simply just open up a Stargate to let Firestorm's energy past through, and than send it somewhere else in the galaxy.
Here he transmutes Blue Devil's energy attack into the road, meaning he could do the same to Nova's blasts.
Impressive.
Hm, he might be able to do this. But what if Firestorm were to transmute Nova directly? As in turn him into cement or water? Does Nova have any defense for that?
This isn't Deathstorm, and he's the only one who can transmute organic matter. Even if he could, I'm pretty sure the Nova Force would protect him from such a dreadful assault.
No. Anything that he has seen, he can transmute. He has also made air in space (essentially, out of nothing), so he doesn't need a material to work with.
I wouldn't say anything, but I see what you mean.
Before the fight, Firestorm transmuted the arch into lead instead of stone, because Orion was about to throw it at him. He did no such thing, and he's transmuted things out of thin air in the past when the material was not readily available.
I still don't see a strategy like that working on Rider as he can get through whatever Firestorm tries to transmute around him by opening a Stargate.
Honestly at this point I don't even feel the need to bring up Firestorm's other abilities - transmutation and blasts counter everything.
I feel like you should because most of your things won't be enough because of Prime's shielding, and speed.
He can transmute Nova's blasts into bubbles.
That's if he can react to Rider who is fast enough to speed around Lord Marvel. Lord Marvel has faster than light travel speed from what I remember, so his reaction speeds should be quite up there too.
He can blast Nova until he dies - and he tagged Kid Flash, so I think it's fair to say he should be able to tag Nova.
That's if he tags him or gets pass Rider's shielding, and his durability which would keep him alive for a while. Also I've stated and shown that Nova Prime is faster than Firestorm and New 52 Kid Flash.
Thus, Firestorm wins.
Nope.
Your turn.
Here's the thing about the speed advantage: Nova almost never blitzes with his full speed straight away, and he has been tagged my much slower beings than Firestorm.
If your significantly faster than your opponent, you wouldn't need to utilize all of your speed to blitz them. The Flash is much faster than almost everyone he faces, yet he doesn't need to go full speed to blitz them. Not to mention being tagged by slower beings doesn't make him look any less faster as he's still done it. If Rider is serious he's going to blitz Firestorm and there won't be much Firestorm can do against it. He lacks the physicality to actually do much back and he won't be capable of using his intangibility and such before get slapped around.
I own Nova Volume 4, where Richard was Nova Prime for a time, and I NEVER saw him blitz anyone in character. He only did it to the Phalanx scouts because he was trying to save the Kree homeworld Hala, and he was tagged by much lesser beings such as Venom, Penance, and a Technarch as I've already shown.
Unless you show him blitzing in a RANDOM ENCOUNTER, he's not going to blitz. In addition, I don't think you've shown combat speeds for Rider, only travel speed.
And by the way, Firestorm can use zeta radiation to travel even faster than Nova.
They went from Rann (which is multiple light years away) to Earth in an instant.
For example, in Nova, volume 4, issue 3, Nova was tagged by Venom, Radioactive Man, and Penance. Those are three characters that probably aren't even faster than bullets, and yet they all got hits on Nova.
He's also been capable of easily dodging Venom before too.
We all know that he operates on levels highly above those guys, so let's not try to say he's not consistently above them.
I know he's faster than Venom. I was demonstrating the point that he does not utilize his great speed in combat except in special scenarios, while this is a random encounter.
9 issues in the same series later, he was tagged by a Technarch, something that has no speed feats whatsoever.
Well if you look at how big a Technarch can be, it's not any less impressive that it Rider. It's quite big meaning it would be harder to dodge a strike coming from it. Here is a scan for the voters when they see how big a Technarch is and how being struck by one isn't too bad.
It doesn't matter how big they are. If they have no speed feats, then being tagged by one is downright shameful.
And besides, Firestorm can grow in size as well.
I can post other instances of him being tagged by lesser beings all day. And before you accuse me of lowballing, I am simply pointing out that Rider does not consistently utilize his great speed in combat. I highly doubt that in character, he would go superluminal or above. In the blitz scenario, that's what he'd need to do.
In a way you are kind of low-balling, I mean yes he can be tagged I've stated that. Even a Flash can be tagged, but it's just that they can dodge most of the attacks sent at them. Showing scans of Rider doesn't really take away from his insane speed as when he wishes to, it's quite hard to land a blow on him as he can quite literally evade it without too much trouble. The scans of the beings who've tagged him fought Richard when he wasn't too serious. Richard will fight Firestorm seriously as his power is very high, and regardless of what you rank his speed it's still much above Firestorm's. Rider is going to land more attacks than Firestorm can evade or counter. By the way I can easily show scans of Firestorm being tagged by a lot slower too, but I won't do that.
Look brother, the fact remains that
I believe that the speed advantage has been mitigated.
1. It did phase him, meaning that it did do something... no, it didn't knock him out but the punches still hurt him.
Just because something phases someone, doesn't mean it did any damage. He punched Kalibak multiple times, and at most all he did was get the New God's attention. It's not like it's anything bad, Firestorm isn't know for his physical strength anyways. The attack didn't nothing other than sway Kalibak's body around. It reminds me of when Carol Danvers punched Doc Green recently in Avengers, she' punched him around yet it did literally nothing. Same concept here.
In the first panel Kalibak grunted in pain. That's all I have to say.
2. Here you go:
Firestorm remains conscious after this, and later defeats him. His durability ostensibly eclipses Orion's by this feat.
Don't tell me you actually believe such a thing. Firestorm is in no way more durable than Orion, nor has he even been. Orion has always been shown to have durability on the level of Superman, sometimes above, yet you wish to disclaim all of that because Firestorm took more punches than Orion did from an amped Kalibak? For starters, I'm pretty sure that Kalibak struck Orion much harder than he did Firestorm there because he knows his capabilities and durability and the fact that he's a bigger threat. It's even more clear that Firestorm is capable of taking multiple blows and not falling which would mean he could take a shot which one-shotted Orion. That doesn't sound right in any way, and I think you know it too. Also one-showing isn't enough to showcase Firestorm's superiorty in durability to Orion, not that is.
Oh, you want more showings? Why didn't you ask?
Firestorm tanked a blast that oneshotted Captain Atom, the blasts of Rannian space armada, and a blow from Helix, who is literally a walking nuclear reactor (this is the N52 version so that explains why they took so long to get up).
3. His reaction speeds aren't apparent here, but they are in other showings.
Can I get some of those showings, because i'm hearing you say he can react to most of Nova Prime's attacks, yet there hasn't been evidence.
It seems you have forgotten about the lightspeed attack.
I don't see how you can use Human Torch's feats with the Control Rod for Blastaar's. Show me Blaastar's own feats and then we can talk.
Wait, what? When did I do that? I showed Human Torch'es feats with it to give you an idea of the capabilities of the Rod, not to say it's levels apply to everyone who wields it. Blaastar wasn't as powerful with it as Johnny was, but he was still really powerful. He was capable of taking blasts from two Nova corpsmen without moving an inch, than quite easily one-shotting them with a single energy blasts. Something he wouldn't be capable of doing so easily without it.
As you can see, the blast that was capable of knocking down the Nova Corpsmen was easily blocked by Rider with a force-field. I think that should suffice.
Dude, all this really shows is that Nova Prime's forcefields are stronger than the average Nova Corpsman. This is common knowledge and means nothing.
Firestorm has planet-busting power in his blasts; it's going to be extremely tough to keep the shields up if he decides to go that route (which he probably won't).
Firestorm does not have planetary destruction level blasts, and it's not like he ever has. I never got why people think destruction capablities for a blasts shows how powerful it is. I can have the most powerful blasts which just vaporizes Thanos and you can have one that destroys a planet, and mine would still be more powerful. The destruction from an attack shouldn't matter much unless it's physical in my opinion.
"A comet that came within six hours of wiping of wiping out the planet". This indicates that Elemental Firestorm is capable of wiping out planets with his blasts. We know that the comet refers to Firestorm because on the very next page, the light dissipates and it turns out to be Firestorm.
All I see is a white light getting bigger which each panel. Nothing shows a planet getting destroyed, so no this doesn't prove much.
If you read the scan, you'd see that it says that "the comet came within six hours of WIPING OUT THE PLANET". And the comet referred to Elemental Firestorm, who was shown on the next page.
I'll need to see planetary level feats for your shields.
I would believe force-fields easily tanking a blast from a Cosmic Control Rod Blastaar would be enough, but here is something more impressive. Rider has produced a force-field which protected him from Galactus's blast which spread out across the solar system and took out the Annihilation Wave in almost everything else. Yes I said a solar system. Yet, Rider's force-field tanked it.
Even if Firestorm had planetary energy blasts, this is beyond even his limits. I'm not saying he can't get pass prime's shielding, because he can, but it will cause him much trouble.
So you're saying that Rider's forcefield tanked a solar system busting blast? And you accuse me of highballing?
Also, by the looks of that scan Firestorm was in teh Negative Zone, which IIRC was not affected by Galactus's blast.
He may be able to reach Firestorm before he teleports, but will he? In character, Rider isn't going to bullrush Firestorm with all he's got. Especially when Firestorm has FTL reflexes.
Better yet, does Firestorm even teleport in combat, or is it simply a means of transportation. In all honesty, Rider bull-rushing is much more consistent than Firestorm teleporting. He literally bull-rushes in every other fight, how is it not in-character? He's bull-rushed Gladiator, Silver Surfer, Venom, Moonstone, Darkhawk, Thanos, and much more. It's in-character. Nova Prime is much faster than Firestorm, especially it's not lookin good on your part as you haven't shown anything otherwise. Where's your speed feats at? Most notably Firestorms acclaimed faster than light reflexes?
Firestorm does teleport in character if he needs to but honestly the shields just negate any of your attacks. He did it against the Royal Flush Gang.
Scans of the bull-rushing please? And you're saying that he'll blitz AS SOON AS THE FIGHT STARTS, which he did NOT do against Venom or Moonstone. I'm not sure about the others but Silver Surfer, Gladiator, and Thanos aren't random encounters either.
And to debunk your claim of being unable to attack while intangible:
Firestorm first phases through a window while simultaneously turning a crook's gun into a cucumber, and stays intangible as they shoot him. I have more instances of using intangibility and transmutation in combination if you're not convinced, but this should be enough.
You know he didn't do those at the same time, the scan even shows that he's doing one after the next. He's not transmuting while intangible. He phased through the window than transmuted the gun. They shot after him, in-which he turned intangible. In all honestly, instead of using that incorrect context, you could have used that as a speed feat. Firestorm turning intangible before bullets strike him.
Dude, there's absolutely no reason that he wouldn't be able to do both at the same time. I already explained that he's literally transmuting his own molecules, and you think that he can't transmute two things at once?
But fine, if you want to play that game, then Nova will eventually have to rest while Firestorm can stay intangible forever, after which Firestorm will defeat him.
Doctor Light did not "turn". He was already in attacking position, as shown in the panel above. The feat makes him FTL in reaction speeds, and this was when he was weakened.
C'mon, Firestorm already had his shield up, it's not like he activated it. It's nothing special as all he did was react to Arthur before he could fire the blast. He was in attacking postion, but he didn't have his energy up or anything. Firestorm just literally turned slightly in his direction. Not close to light speed reaction speeds. People love to throw out light speeds like it's nothing. Whether he is weakened or not, he doesn't have faster than light reaction speeds.
He expanded the shield's range. And besides, I have another nice little feat that's going to demolish any non-physical claims you have. I'll get to it at the end of the post.
He was WEAKENED, and then Doctor Light fired, and then he put his hand up to expand the shield and block it. How does he not have lightspeed reaction speeds?
He does, because Light was already in position to attack. And besides, he's tagged Kid Flash in the past.
That first sentence doesn't mean anything, just because he was in position doesn't mean he was any quicker on the draw. It's his attack that's faster than light, not Arthur himself. By the way the scan shows Kid Flash sending multiple strikes at Firestorm in-which it apparently shows he couldn't react to them. He had to take multiple blows to land one. By the way, Kid Flash isn't faster than light in the New 52 yet, while Richard has been before even receiving the Nova Force.
New 52 FS is significantly less powerful than Pre-52, and he still tagged KF.
No, I don't, and there are no feats to say that increased gravity hinders teleportation.
Alright.
Good, glad that we could agree on this.
So? Killer Frost has "blasted around" Wonder Woman, and Dr. Light has done the same to Superman, beings comparable to Thor in durability.
Nova Prime's durability is different from those guys when being compared to tanking energy blasts. (Other than Thor). Superman and Wonder Woman are more durable on the physical side, and they never were hurt majorly by them.
Yes it did hurt them "majorly". Superman tanked Brainiac 13's planet busting explosion by the way. Just putting that out there.
Light's blasts DID hurt Superman. If you want the scans I can get them.
Why would he need to be tangible to absorb the energy? That makes no sense.
My mistake, but Rider can quite easily do the same.
So?
Each and every one of Firestorm's abilities comes from matter manipulation. He goes intangible by reducing the density of his own molecules. He blasts by expelling energy out of his hands. He uses size shifting by enlarging his molecules. So logically, if he could transmute himself to intangibility, he could use all of his other powers while intangible.
That doesn't make sense, just because all of his abilities come from one, doesn't mean he can use them all at once. It hasn't been shown, which means he obviously can't do it then. If you show me he can than I can think otherwise, but as of now I don't think so.
Yes, it does. All he's really doing is transmuting multiple targets.
And if he couldn't absorb it while tangible, he could simply transmute the attacks into something harmless.
The only thing Prime couldn't replicate, but Rider could do something Firestorm can't, and that's open Stargates. He can simply just open up a Stargate to let Firestorm's energy past through, and than send it somewhere else in the galaxy.
What? I said that Firestorm would transmute the attacks, and you're redirecting the attack? That makes no sense, sorry.
Here he transmutes Blue Devil's energy attack into the road, meaning he could do the same to Nova's blasts.
Impressive.
Hm, he might be able to do this. But what if Firestorm were to transmute Nova directly? As in turn him into cement or water? Does Nova have any defense for that?
This isn't Deathstorm, and he's the only one who can transmute organic matter. Even if he could, I'm pretty sure the Nova Force would protect him from such a dreadful assault.
Common misconception.
Here Firestorm transmutes some enemies into water.
No. Anything that he has seen, he can transmute. He has also made air in space (essentially, out of nothing), so he doesn't need a material to work with.
I wouldn't say anything, but I see what you mean.
Before the fight, Firestorm transmuted the arch into lead instead of stone, because Orion was about to throw it at him. He did no such thing, and he's transmuted things out of thin air in the past when the material was not readily available.
I still don't see a strategy like that working on Rider as he can get through whatever Firestorm tries to transmute around him by opening a Stargate.
Okay, but what if Firestorm were to transmute Rider himself? He can't open a stargate into that.
Honestly at this point I don't even feel the need to bring up Firestorm's other abilities - transmutation and blasts counter everything.
I feel like you should because most of your things won't be enough because of Prime's shielding, and speed.
All right then, let's do it. But remember that you asked for it.
He can transmute Nova's blasts into bubbles.
That's if he can react to Rider who is fast enough to speed around Lord Marvel. Lord Marvel has faster than light travel speed from what I remember, so his reaction speeds should be quite up there too.
Travel speed =/= reaction speed. Firestorm has travelled to the sun in less than a minute which is 8x the speed of light, but he hasn't reacted at that speed.
He can blast Nova until he dies - and he tagged Kid Flash, so I think it's fair to say he should be able to tag Nova.
That's if he tags him or gets pass Rider's shielding, and his durability which would keep him alive for a while. Also I've stated and shown that Nova Prime is faster than Firestorm and New 52 Kid Flash.
Look, your speed doesn't matter if I can get my shielding up or go intangible. And you have NOT shown Rider blitzing someone with supraluminal speed in a RANDOM ENCOUNTER, so he's not going to blitz here.
Thus, Firestorm wins.
Nope.
Your turn.
Yup. He wins, pretty easily too.
Now for the feat that will destroy my opponent's case completely.
Firestorm was able to think a sentence after Darkseid's Omega Beams were fired, and was able to redirect them.
This is a HUGE feat, and one that I was saving for the latter end of the debate. It shows that Firestorm is capable of manipulating ANY energy that Nova throws at him, considering that the Omega Force is much, much more powerful.
In addition, the Omega Effect has tagged Superman, multiple times in fact.
And Firestorm was able to not only react to, but THINK AN ENTIRE SENTENCE BEFORE the Omega Beam came close to him. He then redirected the blast.
Essentially, this narrows my opponent's case down to beating Firestorm up physically. I believe I've provided sufficient evidence to say that it wouldn't work with the Kalibak feat and intangibility, but let's remove ANY doubt you might have with two simple powers.
Elemental Firestorm has the ability to heal himself at will. There was a freaking hole in his chest, and he healed it with absolutely no effort.
So even if FS's durability is bypassed, his healing factor will give him excellent endurance for the fight with Rider.
So now that energy attacks are out of the way because of the Omega Beam feat and Firestorm's ability to absorb energy, let's just recap what exactly Nova Prime would have to go through.
I don't see that happening before Nova gets blasted, transmuted, or....
Before I describe the feat shown above, allow me to divulge into a short digression on the nature of Firestorm's powers. Don't worry, it relates to the feat.
Firestorm gets his powers from something entitled the "Firestorm Matrix". It's where he gets his transmutation powers and stemming from transmutation, his various other abilities. It's sort of like an alternate dimension that Firestorm draws energy from.
Firestorm can effectively trap opponents into the Matrix for an easy victory. There, he is essentially a deity, and he can do whatever he wants to Nova. There's absolutely nothing Nova can do with brute force, because in Forever Evil, Martian Manhunter and Stargirl - two 100 tonners on their own - were unable to break out.
So what Firestorm can do is trap Nova in the Matrix with no means of escaping, thus incapacitating him.
Overall, FS is way too versatile for Nova to handle. And the best part is that Firestorm STILL has numerous feats and powers that I haven't gotten into yet.
Whew, that should do it... you're up mate. @heirtothekingdom: can we have the next round be the last?
I own Nova Volume 4, where Richard was Nova Prime for a time, and I NEVER saw him blitz anyone in character. He only did it to the Phalanx scouts because he was trying to save the Kree homeworld Hala, and he was tagged by much lesser beings such as Venom, Penance, and a Technarch as I've already shown.
Just because he hasn't blitzed anyone at light-speeds or such doesn't mean it's not a blitz, i'm not sure on what your getting on. Rider has always flown into beings at fast speeds as a form of an attack, I don't see why you who reads his stories doesn't see that. You've sited times when he's been tagged by slower beings, but that doesn't mean anything as I can easily do the same, though I won't because it results to nothing. When Rider doesn't want to be tagged, he won't as shown in his fight with Drax.
Unless you show him blitzing in a RANDOM ENCOUNTER, he's not going to blitz. In addition, I don't think you've shown combat speeds for Rider, only travel speed.
Thor has blitzed in a random encounter. Here he blitzes the Cancerverse's version of the Avengers (Revengers) Thor quite easily, and he knew nothing about him other than what he knew of the past Thor likely.
Also I've shown Rider's combat speed already when I displayed the feat of him fighting the Revengers, but here it is again. Here he's continuously fighting most of the Revengers alone, by jumping from one to another, and countering their attacks with his one.
And by the way, Firestorm can use zeta radiation to travel even faster than Nova.
That's not something Firestorm uses during combat though. It's more of a means to travel quickly from a location.
They went from Rann (which is multiple light years away) to Earth in an instant.
That's impressive though.
I know he's faster than Venom. I was demonstrating the point that he does not utilize his great speed in combat except in special scenarios, while this is a random encounter.
That's not fair to say as Firestorm hasn't shown any amazing reaction or combat feats against random beings he doesn't know. All of the ones you've shown or recurring enemies, or one's he's had Intel on.
It doesn't matter how big they are. If they have no speed feats, then being tagged by one is downright shameful.
I don't see why we have to go the low-balling route, I can easily show Firestorm being tagged by less, but that's not the kind of debator I am. Like seriously, how many times has Gorilla Grodd tagged Flash? How many times has Lex Luthor tagged Superman? Yet, no one downplays there speed from being tagged by much slower beings. That's one showing, he's not going to speed his way away from every opponent or else he would never be hit.
And besides, Firestorm can grow in size as well.
Just makes him an easier target to be honest.
Look brother, the fact remains that
I believe that the speed advantage has been mitigated.
I believe the speed advantage stands as it is.
In the first panel Kalibak grunted in pain. That's all I have to say.
He didn't really seem all to effect though, whether Firestorm's attack hurt Kalibak or not, it was completely little regardless.
Oh, you want more showings? Why didn't you ask?
Firestorm tanked a blast that oneshotted Captain Atom, the blasts of Rannian space armada, and a blow from Helix, who is literally a walking nuclear reactor (this is the N52 version so that explains why they took so long to get up).
Here is more impressive durability from Rider.
Rider has tanked two blasts from Magus, and one from the Cancerverses version of Quasar (the evil Quasar should be around Firestorm's level and Magus would be above). He tanked it, and didn't looked too damaged afterwards.
He's been in Galactus's energy reservoirs for his ships, which have the stored energy of absorbed planets. His suit even displays it can repair itself.
Richard has even been inside a neutron star, and was capable of surviving long enough to open a wormhole to get him out of there.
All better feats better than the ones displayed by you.
It seems you have forgotten about the light-speed attack.
He doesn't have light-speed attacks.
Dude, all this really shows is that Nova Prime's forcefields are stronger than the average Nova Corpsman. This is common knowledge and means nothing.
No it doesn't, it shows he can take attacks from a being who's wielding more power than even Firestorm himself. It shows that he can take Firestorm's blasts, and continue on fighting as he's done so with more powerful beings aka Blastaar with the Cosmic Control Rod. His shields show he can take the blasts, though it cracks at more higher potency. So even if Firestorm breaks through the shield, than Rider's durability will suffice enough.
If you read the scan, you'd see that it says that "the comet came within six hours of WIPING OUT THE PLANET". And the comet referred to Elemental Firestorm, who was shown on the next page.
Even if it's true, I can't even see how big the planet is. it doesn't show the planet's size in the scan as you cannot get a proper glimpse of it.
So you're saying that Rider's forcefield tanked a solar system busting blast? And you accuse me of highballing?
It's not high-balling at all, the blast kind of went in a large wave, so all the energy wasn't focused in one spot. Had it been, Rider would have most certainly have died from such an attack, but since it was spread out, he was capable of shielding from it.
Also, by the looks of that scan Firestorm was in teh Negative Zone, which IIRC was not affected by Galactus's blast.
I think you mean Nova Prime, and he was in the exact same place as Galactus was or else he wouldn't have needed to shield from the blast.
Firestorm does teleport in character if he needs to but honestly the shields just negate any of your attacks. He did it against the Royal Flush Gang.
.Why not show me a scan, or elaborate more on it so I know more of what your speaking about, because from what I've seen Firestorm rarely teleports in battle. One encounter cannot show that he'll do it from now on. Though as I've shown Rider is fast enough to attack from all angles as shown in his fight with Lord Marvel. Can Firestorm shield from all sides?
Scans of the bull-rushing please? And you're saying that he'll blitz AS SOON AS THE FIGHT STARTS, which he did NOT do against Venom or Moonstone. I'm not sure about the others but Silver Surfer, Gladiator, and Thanos aren't random encounters either
Obviously not right at the beginning, but as the battle progresses you'll be sure to see that he would do such a thing.
Dude, there's absolutely no reason that he wouldn't be able to do both at the same time. I already explained that he's literally transmuting his own molecules, and you think that he can't transmute two things at once?
Just because he can transmute his own molecules, doesn't mean he can do to of those things at once. If the writers haven't shown it, that's a clear enough indication that he's not capable of doing such a thing or else he would have already.
But fine, if you want to play that game, then Nova will eventually have to rest while Firestorm can stay intangible forever, after which Firestorm will defeat him.
Though Firestorm has never done such a tactic, so why would he now. Doesn't make any sense.
He expanded the shield's range. And besides, I have another nice little feat that's going to demolish any non-physical claims you have. I'll get to it at the end of the post.
That makes it even less impressive. He see's Doctor Light getting ready to fire a blast, and he expands his shields so he can block his attack. I don't see how that shows him reacting to light-speed attacks. I swear, if I go by the logic you guys pull on this Vine, everybody will have light-speed attacks.
He was WEAKENED, and then Doctor Light fired, and then he put his hand up to expand the shield and block it. How does he not have lightspeed reaction speeds?
There is nothing in that scan to show that Arthur fired before he expanded his shields, nothing. It doesn't make a difference if he was fully healthy too, because he still wouldn't have light-speed reaction feats. Your basing everything on this one feat, and it's out of context.
New 52 FS is significantly less powerful than Pre-52, and he still tagged KF
Even new 52 Kid Flash has speeds slower than Prime's travel speeds. Barry Allen in the new 52 can't even travel at light speed yet, let alone Kid Flash. All Kid Flash did was speed into him and punch him multiple times, it's not as if he pulled off some reaction speed or combat speed that Rider couldn't. If he had reacted to Pre-52 Kid Flash it would have been an exceptional counter to reacting to Rider.
Good, glad that we could agree on this.
Yep.
Yes it did hurt them "majorly". Superman tanked Brainiac 13's planet busting explosion by the way. Just putting that out there.
Yeah I know how durable Superman is, and it did hurt them but not to the extent your putting it out as. He's powerful, but not powerful enough to significantly hurt someone like Superman in a single blast.
Light's blasts DID hurt Superman. If you want the scans I can get them.
I'm aware of that, but it hasn't hurt him significantly.
So?
I'm stating that Rider can absorb energy just like Firestorm can, what's wrong with that?
Yes, it does. All he's really doing is transmuting multiple targets.
That doesn't make sense, as it's not what we were talking about. Firestorm hasn't shown he can go intangible and use his other abilities at the same time. As i'm saying, it's just something he has never done, so why could he all of a sudden now? He can transmute multiple targets yes, but the other things he cannot do.
What? I said that Firestorm would transmute the attacks, and you're redirecting the attack? That makes no sense, sorry.
Rider has the full Nova Force it's possible he can use it to redirect the transmutation blast right back at Firestorm. Probably wouldn't do anything, but it should repel the attack.
Here Firestorm transmutes some enemies into water.
Are those actual humans or living beings? Seems to me they can be robots or androids or such.
Okay, but what if Firestorm were to transmute Rider himself? He can't open a stargate into that.
It's more than likely that the transmutation wouldn't affect Rider as he's in possession of the full Nova Force which should be able of protecting him from such an attack. From my knowledge he hasn't faced someone who can transmute of such a level, nor has he been transmuted so it's hard to gauge, but Firestorm hasn't transmuted someone of his level so it's in the same boat.
All right then, let's do it. But remember that you asked for it.
Sounds good.
Travel speed =/= reaction speed. Firestorm has travelled to the sun in less than a minute which is 8x the speed of light, but he hasn't reacted at that speed.
I don't know where you got that idea. Thor has been shown shown flying at speeds faster than light, yet hasn't displayed reaction speeds of that level. Nova Prime has shown faster speeds than Firestorm like flying from the earth to the sun mid-sentence which blows your feat out of the water, so I guess his travel speed/reaction speed is loads above yours. Also than you state he hasn't reacted at that speed which makes me wonder, what are you even saying here? I've displayed that Rider is faster travel speed wise, and reaction wise.
Look, your speed doesn't matter if I can get my shielding up or go intangible. And you have NOT shown Rider blitzing someone with supraluminal speed in a RANDOM ENCOUNTER, so he's not going to blitz here.
You shields can't block from every angle, and what's stopping Rider from overcoming that with a powerful blast? He's shown that when pushed to use his more powerful blasts, that he'll use it. I don't see why it wouldn't happen here to overcome Firestorm's shields. Also Firestorm can go intangible, but I doubt he'll use it after every attack against him nor will he be fast enough to do it each time before an attack. Firestorm never fights the whole fight going intangible after every attack, so don't apply it here.
Also Rider has tried blitzing Gladiator before he got the Nova Force, it was ineffective, but it's aganinst Gladiator, a Superman level being. Firestorm would have been taken away by this blitz.
Heck once he becomes more adept with his powers and more powerful, he tries it again and it's more powerful. As you can see it's different here as he actually takes Gladiator back this time which shows the difference in power from him back than and here.
Though you can still believe that he hasn't done it to someone faster than Firestorm, oh wait Gladiator is much faster than him.
Oh yeah he's done it to Adam Warlock too, so yes he will do it here for sure.
Bull-rushes evil Quasar.
There is 3 incitations, and all 3 of those guys have incredible speed, most notably evil Quasar and Gladiator who have been shown to move at speeds near or faster than light (while traveling), and show nanosecond reaction speeds.
Yup. He wins, pretty easily too.
Okay I can understand you thinking Firestorm wins, but for you to say it's easy just shows you don't know how powerful Nova Prime is. Personally I think Nova Prime wins obviously, but I don't think it will be easy. Though Firestorm isn't exactly the most durable of beings despite what you've tried to represent. He's not going to tank much of Rider's attacks. Blasts like these from Rider will surely have Firestorm on the defensive side. Even Thanos was taken aback from such a blast. Though he was taking multiple blasts from the Cosmic Cube, Star Lord wasn't utilizing it properly, and Thanos has always been shown as one of the most durable Marvel villains out there.
I think a blast that could send Thanos hurling like that, and yelling out in pain would be capable of extremely hurting Firestorm who isn't anywhere near as durable.
As for your supposed amazing feats.
Feat 1: Darkseid's Omega Beams have been dodged by so many people it's hard to take them seriously. It's gotten to the point that when it's fired upon people I mostly just expect to see how they dodge it. The only incarnation who has shown amazing speed with those beams is the New 52 version of Darkseid who has shown capable of taking Superman flying at fasts speeds, and keeping a close distance to Flash who was running at fast speeds. Even in those scans, Superman was close to Darkseid, except for in the New 52 version. For Firestorm to deflect it is impressive, but he says Orion told him about the ability beforehand, so it could be he was prepared for it. Also Rider can amplify his speed, so it's something he could do to make his movement's faster so he could attack at speeds that would make Firestorm unable to do much to defend himself.
Feat 2: Instant healing is impressive and all, but Firestorm isn't durable all that much himself, and seeing as how you're taking up a composite version you have to find a consistent durability level. He can still be taken out quickly if he doesn't avoid Rider's blasts like above, which would could knock him out. He can heal while he's unconscious, but he'll still lose the battle. He could easily fire multiple gravitational blasts at Firestorm which I don't see Firestorm's shields blocking, or at-least the one's he uses (kind of hard to block a gravitational pulse)
Feat 3: Though that's impressive and all, that's something he simply wouldn't do. That's like me saying Rider will lobotomize Firestorm like he did Ego, which he wouldn't. Even if Firestorm did take Rider there, he could easily escape by opening a Stargate to take him back to the original battlefield. Even Sam Alexander the new Nova has easily opened Stargates. Here he opens one fast enough to evade the Phoenix Force's blast.
Nova doesn't blitz in character at speeds faster than Firestorm can react
Yes he does and i've shown evidence that he will and can. Firestorm can't do anything about it to stop it.
Any energy attacks are rendered useless because Firestorm can redirect energy
Doesn't mean he can redirect energy from all angles, which has a high potency. Rider has speed which would make it hard to counter his energy blasts.
To beat him physically, you'd have to bypass his shields, durability, AND healing.
Honestly if Rider can hurt Thanos with a blast, he should be powerful enough to get past Firestorm's durability, and healing factor. Wolverine's healing factor is better than Firestorm's yet he's been knocked out multiple times, which Rider could also do. Also Rider can easily attack from each angle or move faster than Firestorm can move his shield and blast or punch him. Rider is much stronger than Firestorm physically.
Nova has no counter to transmutation
The Nova Force has protected from virtually everything, black holes, stars going boom, Galactus's ships energies from other worlds, suppression on an extreme level, telepathy, planetary blasts, and such. I think it's capable of stopping him from being transmuted. How is it possible to transmute someone who wields the Nova Force which would be in his body still, it would likely just prevent it. There is also the fact that Firestorm hasn't transmuted anyone near Rider's level anyways.
BFR into the Matrix is a quick and easy method of victory
He rarely does that, and this is in-character so there is a small chance of it happening. There is also the fact that Rider can open a stargate to escape there.
Firestorm can probably blast him anyway.
Rider's energy projection is above Firestorm's, not to mention he's more durable. If there were no shields up, and both were to take a powerful blast from one another, Rider would come out without too much damage, while Firestorm would be hurt a lot. Rider's taken blasts from Lord Marvel, Magus, and such and continued to fight like it wasn't much. What does Firestorm have on that?
Overall, FS is way too versatile for Nova to handle. And the best part is that Firestorm STILL has numerous feats and powers that I haven't gotten into yet.
Versality doesn't always mean victory, and seeing how that's pretty much Firestorm's only advantage, it's not likely he would win. Also you can state he has more powerful abilities you haven't gotten into yet, but i'm pretty sure Rider could do something to counter or evade almost all of them.
Even though Firestorm is more versatile than Rider, he lacks any other real advantage to give him the win over the most powerful Nova corpsman.
In the end, Nova Prime would defeat Firestorm.
Your turn.
I think I am done here, and after your post we can go straight into voting if that's okay with you?
*cracks knuckles* let's do this
There's just no way that Nova Prime is going to win this matchup.
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