Now as we see Ult. HE has superhuman sight. He can see father or closer than any human. He can zoom in or out with his eyes naturally and he also sees the world in a Black and White way noticing things others wouldn't. He knew Fury was behind a one way mirror for example. He also has another ability...
He also has Superhuman ability called TWITCH factor (Second Panel) that allows him to bury Playing Cards into a wall. He also shows his SHIELD training and skill to spot a weakness and overcome it.
Finally is his ability to know at all times his surroundings and coordinates. Its very hard to get the drop on him or to hide from one of his shots.
All right good to know. Sorry it took me so long to respond.
Now as we see Ult. HE has superhuman sight. He can see father or closer than any human. He can zoom in or out with his eyes naturally and he also sees the world in a Black and White way noticing things others wouldn't. He knew Fury was behind a one way mirror for example. He also has another ability...
Impressive.
He also has Superhuman ability called TWITCH factor (Second Panel) that allows him to bury Playing Cards into a wall.
Well using playing cards as a weapon is impressive how ever the thing is, this is an ability bullseye is capable of. He practically invented the reality warping accuracy shtick
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Now am I saying because daredevil beats bullseye he beats ultimate hawkeye? No. That would be ABC logic, and bullseye and hawkeye are 2 different characters and hawkeye is probably a bit more accurate. However we do know daredevil has bested or matched bullseye on a number of occasions so we at least know this sort of accuracy isn't anything new to him. He even matched him with one broken arm!
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All though as I said there are differences between bullseye and hawkeye I do believe bullseye is at least in the same tier as ultimate hawkeye (Ultimate hawkeye being a bit better). If daredevil can match bullseye with a broken arm imagine what he can do with both arms? Even with a broken arm daredevil is still blocking and dodging projectiles, and is still swatting bullseyes ninja stars out of the air, and catching sais thrown at him by Lester. With both arms daredevil is a lot more effective and its only easier for him to dodge and block projectiles. This isn't the fact daredevil was able to beat bullseye it was the manor he has been able to do it in. Sure ultimate hawkeye might be better than bullseye but by how much? Daredevil has beaten other great marksmen as well but bullseye is probably the most comparable to ultimate hawkeye. Point being is daredevil does have a good track record against skilled marksmen, in order for ultimate hawkeye to tag daredevil he will need to be a lot better than bullseye.
He also shows his SHIELD training and skill to spot a weakness and overcome it.
I'm not quite sure what is happening here but it looks like ultimate hawkeye is staring at an enemy army and he sees a weak spot in there defense, right? I don't know if this will apply to this fight unless I am reading the scan wrong or something. Spotting the weakness in a armies defenses and the technique of someone like daredevil are 2 different things.
Finally is his ability to know at all times his surroundings and coordinates. Its very hard to get the drop on him or to hide from one of his shots.
Hawkeye seems to be able to see red skull just fine in your scan. He seems to be only a couple of feat away from red skull, if daredevil goes for stealth ultimate hakweye wont be able to see daredevil and know which coordinates daredevil is at and thats all that matters. Daredevil isn't going to stay stationary or walk slowly the way red skull was in your scans.
I think daredevil can take this due to his experience with marksmen like ultimate hawkeye, his reflexes and agility, and his own accuracy with his billy club.
Now part of being a good marksmen is you ability to set your opponent up. Ultimate hawkeye is likely going to try and make daredevil go arial in a position he can't maneuver himself, but with acrobatic feats like the one below it will be hard to put daredevil into that position.
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Even if Matt can't maneuver his body into a position causing hawkeye to miss he can probably either catch or deflect hawkeyes arrows. Here are a few occasions where Matt has swatted bullets out of the air (some times multiple bullets). Can ultimate hawkeye fire his arrows at a rate faster than a machine gun?
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Once daredevil gets within throwing range he can hit ultimate hawkeye with his billy club. Now I am sure you will agree when street levelers dodge bullets they are dodging the aim of the shooter and not the actual bullet correct? The quality of the marksmen does matter. Has ultimate hawkeye dodged someone as accurate as daredevil?
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Just for clarification I am not saying daredevil is a better shot than ultimate hawkeye (because he isn't close to ultimate hawkeyes level) but he is good enough to tag someone of ultimate hawkeyes speed and agility.
And if ultimate hawkeye can't dodge his billy club will he be standing after it hits him? Daredevil has tossed his billy club with enough force to go into what looks like a concrete pillar.
Can ultimate hawkeye shrug off a billy club to the face thrown with that much force? Thrown in with the fact that daredevil knows where to hit to make a hit from a billy club really hurt?
This one interests me. Not to go off topic, but did Daredevil intentionally throw his billy club with such precision that Punisher's bullet ricochetted into his own leg, or was Frank just reeeaallly unlucky?
This one interests me. Not to go off topic, but did Daredevil intentionally throw his billy club with such precision that Punisher's bullet ricochetted into his own leg, or was Frank just reeeaallly unlucky?
I'm not really sure if daredevil did that on purpose or not. I think its debatable. I mean its possible he could have known frank was pulling the trigger due to radar sense, and bullets don't just randomly ricochet like that. It must have had something to do with the way he tossed his club I would think.
Well using playing cards as a weapon is impressive how ever the thing is, this is an ability bullseye is capable of. He practically invented the reality warping accuracy shtick
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Now am I saying because daredevil beats bullseye he beats ultimate hawkeye? No. That would be ABC logic, and bullseye and hawkeye are 2 different characters and hawkeye is probably a bit more accurate. However we do know daredevil has bested or matched bullseye on a number of occasions so we at least know this sort of accuracy isn't anything new to him. He even matched him with one broken arm!
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All though as I said there are differences between bullseye and hawkeye I do believe bullseye is at least in the same tier as ultimate hawkeye (Ultimate hawkeye being a bit better). If daredevil can match bullseye with a broken arm imagine what he can do with both arms? Even with a broken arm daredevil is still blocking and dodging projectiles, and is still swatting bullseyes ninja stars out of the air, and catching sais thrown at him by Lester. With both arms daredevil is a lot more effective and its only easier for him to dodge and block projectiles. This isn't the fact daredevil was able to beat bullseye it was the manor he has been able to do it in. Sure ultimate hawkeye might be better than bullseye but by how much? Daredevil has beaten other great marksmen as well but bullseye is probably the most comparable to ultimate hawkeye. Point being is daredevil does have a good track record against skilled marksmen, in order for ultimate hawkeye to tag daredevil he will need to be a lot better than bullseye.
I think Ult. HE is the BE of the Ult. Verse. I think the SHIELD Tech put him ahead but with just Arrows and whats around it would be almost simliar to fighting BE. The key difference is debating HE SHIELD Black Ops skills as well Accomplishments.
I'm not quite sure what is happening here but it looks like ultimate hawkeye is staring at an enemy army and he sees a weak spot in there defense, right? I don't know if this will apply to this fight unless I am reading the scan wrong or something. Spotting the weakness in a armies defenses and the technique of someone like daredevil are 2 different things.
When HE was solo working with BW he ran entire operations as head shot caller. He also leads Nick Fury's Ultimate Black Op Teams and never fails a task thus far. So he is a very experience tactician. Something akin to Captain Aerica himself. He has a habit of being Tactical like Punisher when spotting weakness, area of approach, how to avoid a target, ect. This is that Tarining from SHIELD comes in. He is SHILEDS best man for a operation.
Hawkeye seems to be able to see red skull just fine in your scan. He seems to be only a couple of feat away from red skull, if daredevil goes for stealth ultimate hakweye wont be able to see daredevil and know which coordinates daredevil is at and thats all that matters. Daredevil isn't going to stay stationary or walk slowly the way red skull was in your scans.
I think daredevil can take this due to his experience with marksmen like ultimate hawkeye, his reflexes and agility, and his own accuracy with his billy club.
Now part of being a good marksmen is you ability to set your opponent up. Ultimate hawkeye is likely going to try and make daredevil go arial in a position he can't maneuver himself, but with acrobatic feats like the one below it will be hard to put daredevil into that position.
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Hawkeye feat with Red Skull is not so much targeting a slow target as proving he carries coordinates of everything around him to set up shots or know where a enemy can attack from next at all times. it helps to someone who doesn't know there surroundings till its too late.
I wont deny DD fighting just normal Arrows HE could take alot of rounds myself. This is a very even match from what see.
I will show some scan below that also show highly skilled and acrobatic people who are easy tag by HE aswell.
Even if Matt can't maneuver his body into a position causing hawkeye to miss he can probably either catch or deflect hawkeyes arrows. Here are a few occasions where Matt has swatted bullets out of the air (some times multiple bullets). Can ultimate hawkeye fire his arrows at a rate faster than a machine gun?
Actually I would say thanks to his describe "Twitch Factor) HE has scans of faster than Machine Gun fire feats.
As seen his Arrows are praticaly near eachother in droves. Also the Kree feat have 3 Arrows near simultaneously head shots.
Once daredevil gets within throwing range he can hit ultimate hawkeye with his billy club. Now I am sure you will agree when street levelers dodge bullets they are dodging the aim of the shooter and not the actual bullet correct? The quality of the marksmen does matter. Has ultimate hawkeye dodged someone as accurate as daredevil?
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Just for clarification I am not saying daredevil is a better shot than ultimate hawkeye (because he isn't close to ultimate hawkeyes level) but he is good enough to tag someone of ultimate hawkeyes speed and agility.
As show below HE has tagged his fair share of Super Speed and Agile foes as well. Some with Bullet Time Feats and training.
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Here HE tags Hulk from a moving Chopper while Hulk is jumping around at 200 MPH.
BW who has Super Human Reflexes and Agility. She jumps from her hospitable bed ready to tangle and HE pins her with 2 shots to the wall and finishes her.
Ult. Sabertooth who is raging around on Warren and HE eye shots him from a distance.
Venom Eye shotted as well while HE is moving fast.
Kraven here was already Peak human before Genetic Modification.
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Here HE tags a broken ankle Toad (no big deal) then tags Rogue (highly train from Weapon X) with Toads Power while she is airborn with that superhuman agility/jump.
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The we have this most important feat of Tagging a super speed foe with a most inaccurate weapon from a mile away.....
I think he should keep up with DD.
And if ultimate hawkeye can't dodge his billy club will he be standing after it hits him? Daredevil has tossed his billy club with enough force to go into what looks like a concrete pillar.
Can ultimate hawkeye shrug off a billy club to the face thrown with that much force? Thrown in with the fact that daredevil knows where to hit to make a hit from a billy club really hurt?
Hawkeye ha great dodging Ability as well. Here is a good showing of Bullet Dodging from Asian Soldiers over 2 miles of Warzone while keeping his team alive.@jashro44:
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Also the Feat of Speed he possesses Here below he has Guns to his head and the guards give the order to fire. HE so fast that he kills them first with no weapons at first in his hands. Whats more impressive is the fact he has been brutally tortured for days before breaking free for this.
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I think he can dodge the Billy club and hold a advantage right then.
I think Ult. HE is the BE of the Ult. Verse. I think the SHIELD Tech put him ahead but with just Arrows and whats around it would be almost simliar to fighting BE. The key difference is debating HE SHIELD Black Ops skills as well Accomplishments.
All right.
When HE was solo working with BW he ran entire operations as head shot caller. He also leads Nick Fury's Ultimate Black Op Teams and never fails a task thus far. So he is a very experience tactician. Something akin to Captain Aerica himself. He has a habit of being Tactical like Punisher when spotting weakness, area of approach, how to avoid a target, ect. This is that Tarining from SHIELD comes in. He is SHILEDS best man for a operation.
For a fight against a more tactical marksmen daredevil has beaten the punisher.
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Now all though punisher isn't as skilled as ultimate hawkeye he is still skilled. Punisher is also quite the tactical thinker as well but it doesn't help him out much against daredevil in this fight. I don't believe hawkeyes tactical mind will be a huge advantage that daredevil can't compensate for.
Hawkeye feat with Red Skull is not so much targeting a slow target as proving he carries coordinates of everything around him to set up shots or know where a enemy can attack from next at all times. it helps to someone who doesn't know there surroundings till its too late.
I wont deny DD fighting just normal Arrows HE could take alot of rounds myself. This is a very even match from what see.
I will show some scan below that also show highly skilled and acrobatic people who are easy tag by HE aswell.
Oh well daredevils radar sense allows him to recognize his surroundings as well pretty easily.
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This is shortly after Matt lost his radar sense. After getting retrained by stick he gets it back. As matt describes it "I can feel it stick. Everything. The target. You."
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With daredevils radar sense it is impossible for anyone to get the drop on daredevil. Where as Hawkeye needs to know what coordinates daredevil is at to hit him.
Actually I would say thanks to his describe "Twitch Factor) HE has scans of faster than Machine Gun fire feats.
All right. Very impressive. All though daredevil only has to swat a few arrows out of the air. He only needs to do that while he is Arial which is only for a second at the most.
Here HE tags Hulk from a moving Chopper while Hulk is jumping around at 200 MPH.
Impressive all though daredevil is more agile and also has a better sense of timing then the hulk does.
BW who has Super Human Reflexes and Agility. She jumps from her hospitable bed ready to tangle and HE pins her with 2 shots to the wall and finishes her.
Impressive. I believe daredevil has been stated to have superhuman/enhanced reflexes before, if he doesn't than I would rank him there by feats. But what has black widow done thats on par with daredevil in terms of reflexes?
Ult. Sabertooth who is raging around on Warren and HE eye shots him from a distance.
Hitting him in the eye is impressive but he did seem a little distracted and I don't know about ultimate sabretooth but 616 sabretooth does tend to tank attacks as opposed to dodge them. Does ultimate sabretooth operate the same way as 616?
Venom Eye shotted as well while HE is moving fast.
Pretty much the same as above. 616 Brock was always capable of dodging but he never bothered to because he never needed to. Does ultimate venom dodge attacks in character?
Kraven here was already Peak human before Genetic Modification.
Pretty cool all though kraven was running in a straight line. Daredevil in this scenario will be flipping around and also diving behind cover.
Here HE tags a broken ankle Toad (no big deal) then tags Rogue (highly train from Weapon X) with Toads Power while she is airborn with that superhuman agility/jump.
The we have this most important feat of Tagging a super speed foe with a most inaccurate weapon from a mile away.....
I think he should keep up with DD.
These last 2 are very impressive admittedly.
Hawkeye ha great dodging Ability as well. Here is a good showing of Bullet Dodging from Asian Soldiers over 2 miles of Warzone while keeping his team alive.
As nice a feat as this is do these soldiers have any feats? I mean as I said daredevil isn't any where near as accurate as hawkeye but he is still quite accurate. Hawkeye as far as I am concerned is dodging the aim of the shooter, this would be a lot harder to do against a competent marksmen.
As for the feat of taking on multiple solider you sure he dodged gun fire from them? I assumed he gun blitzed them.
Well using playing cards as a weapon is impressive how ever the thing is, this is an ability bullseye is capable of. He practically invented the reality warping accuracy shtick
Gallery
Now am I saying because daredevil beats bullseye he beats ultimate hawkeye? No. That would be ABC logic, and bullseye and hawkeye are 2 different characters and hawkeye is probably a bit more accurate. However we do know daredevil has bested or matched bullseye on a number of occasions so we at least know this sort of accuracy isn't anything new to him. He even matched him with one broken arm!
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All though as I said there are differences between bullseye and hawkeye I do believe bullseye is at least in the same tier as ultimate hawkeye (Ultimate hawkeye being a bit better). If daredevil can match bullseye with a broken arm imagine what he can do with both arms? Even with a broken arm daredevil is still blocking and dodging projectiles, and is still swatting bullseyes ninja stars out of the air, and catching sais thrown at him by Lester. With both arms daredevil is a lot more effective and its only easier for him to dodge and block projectiles. This isn't the fact daredevil was able to beat bullseye it was the manor he has been able to do it in. Sure ultimate hawkeye might be better than bullseye but by how much? Daredevil has beaten other great marksmen as well but bullseye is probably the most comparable to ultimate hawkeye. Point being is daredevil does have a good track record against skilled marksmen, in order for ultimate hawkeye to tag daredevil he will need to be a lot better than bullseye.
I think Ult. HE is the BE of the Ult. Verse. I think the SHIELD Tech put him ahead but with just Arrows and whats around it would be almost simliar to fighting BE. The key difference is debating HE SHIELD Black Ops skills as well Accomplishments.
I'm not quite sure what is happening here but it looks like ultimate hawkeye is staring at an enemy army and he sees a weak spot in there defense, right? I don't know if this will apply to this fight unless I am reading the scan wrong or something. Spotting the weakness in a armies defenses and the technique of someone like daredevil are 2 different things.
When HE was solo working with BW he ran entire operations as head shot caller. He also leads Nick Fury's Ultimate Black Op Teams and never fails a task thus far. So he is a very experience tactician. Something akin to Captain Aerica himself. He has a habit of being Tactical like Punisher when spotting weakness, area of approach, how to avoid a target, ect. This is that Tarining from SHIELD comes in. He is SHILEDS best man for a operation.
Hawkeye seems to be able to see red skull just fine in your scan. He seems to be only a couple of feat away from red skull, if daredevil goes for stealth ultimate hakweye wont be able to see daredevil and know which coordinates daredevil is at and thats all that matters. Daredevil isn't going to stay stationary or walk slowly the way red skull was in your scans.
I think daredevil can take this due to his experience with marksmen like ultimate hawkeye, his reflexes and agility, and his own accuracy with his billy club.
Now part of being a good marksmen is you ability to set your opponent up. Ultimate hawkeye is likely going to try and make daredevil go arial in a position he can't maneuver himself, but with acrobatic feats like the one below it will be hard to put daredevil into that position.
Gallery
Hawkeye feat with Red Skull is not so much targeting a slow target as proving he carries coordinates of everything around him to set up shots or know where a enemy can attack from next at all times. it helps to someone who doesn't know there surroundings till its too late.
I wont deny DD fighting just normal Arrows HE could take alot of rounds myself. This is a very even match from what see.
I will show some scan below that also show highly skilled and acrobatic people who are easy tag by HE aswell.
Even if Matt can't maneuver his body into a position causing hawkeye to miss he can probably either catch or deflect hawkeyes arrows. Here are a few occasions where Matt has swatted bullets out of the air (some times multiple bullets). Can ultimate hawkeye fire his arrows at a rate faster than a machine gun?
Actually I would say thanks to his describe "Twitch Factor) HE has scans of faster than Machine Gun fire feats.
As seen his Arrows are praticaly near eachother in droves. Also the Kree feat have 3 Arrows near simultaneously head shots.
Once daredevil gets within throwing range he can hit ultimate hawkeye with his billy club. Now I am sure you will agree when street levelers dodge bullets they are dodging the aim of the shooter and not the actual bullet correct? The quality of the marksmen does matter. Has ultimate hawkeye dodged someone as accurate as daredevil?
Gallery
Just for clarification I am not saying daredevil is a better shot than ultimate hawkeye (because he isn't close to ultimate hawkeyes level) but he is good enough to tag someone of ultimate hawkeyes speed and agility.
As show below HE has tagged his fair share of Super Speed and Agile foes as well. Some with Bullet Time Feats and training.
Gallery
Here HE tags Hulk from a moving Chopper while Hulk is jumping around at 200 MPH.
BW who has Super Human Reflexes and Agility. She jumps from her hospitable bed ready to tangle and HE pins her with 2 shots to the wall and finishes her.
Ult. Sabertooth who is raging around on Warren and HE eye shots him from a distance.
Venom Eye shotted as well while HE is moving fast.
Kraven here was already Peak human before Genetic Modification.
Gallery
Here HE tags a broken ankle Toad (no big deal) then tags Rogue (highly train from Weapon X) with Toads Power while she is airborn with that superhuman agility/jump.
Gallery
The we have this most important feat of Tagging a super speed foe with a most inaccurate weapon from a mile away.....
I think he should keep up with DD.
And if ultimate hawkeye can't dodge his billy club will he be standing after it hits him? Daredevil has tossed his billy club with enough force to go into what looks like a concrete pillar.
Can ultimate hawkeye shrug off a billy club to the face thrown with that much force? Thrown in with the fact that daredevil knows where to hit to make a hit from a billy club really hurt?
Hawkeye ha great dodging Ability as well. Here is a good showing of Bullet Dodging from Asian Soldiers over 2 miles of Warzone while keeping his team alive.@jashro44:
Gallery
Also the Feat of Speed he possesses Here below he has Guns to his head and the guards give the order to fire. HE so fast that he kills them first with no weapons at first in his hands. Whats more impressive is the fact he has been brutally tortured for days before breaking free for this.
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I think he can dodge the Billy club and hold a advantage right then.
Is it some self imposed rule that you're not allowed on Comic Vine unless you're completely hammered? Why was I quoted?!
@jashro44: Damn I was hoping to continue this today but have to go to my second job in a hour and work my first again tommorow. So I will replay tommorow night (since i can sleep in the next morning).
@nickzambuto: I come on after work and I drink my wine to relax... so yeah :)
@laflux: Like I said if HE had his SHIELD Gear it be kinda unfair.
For a fight against a more tactical marksmen daredevil has beaten the punisher.
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Now all though punisher isn't as skilled as ultimate hawkeye he is still skilled. Punisher is also quite the tactical thinker as well but it doesn't help him out much against daredevil in this fight. I don't believe hawkeyes tactical mind will be a huge advantage that daredevil can't compensate for.
I never saw the whole fight of part 2 but I dint like how Punisher was written out of character of going trigger happy at all. That was WIS a bit as Punisher always calmly fires control burst instead of full auto. He says as much in his own comics.
Also we both know Punisher holds back alot as well against DD. Tho Punisher win probably only 2 random Encounter fights he always hold back.
Anyway Hakweye wont have this problem of inaccurate fire from lost of control. He never lost control while fighting. When he did lost control he killed 10+ Super humans with Captain Britain Suits. (Confirmed 60+ Toners with matching Durability and flight)
As seen the Suits are tough...
Hawkeye killed all these guys by himself. Saving Quick Silver.
Oh well daredevils radar sense allows him to recognize his surroundings as well pretty easily.
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This is shortly after Matt lost his radar sense. After getting retrained by stick he gets it back. As matt describes it "I can feel it stick. Everything. The target. You."
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With daredevils radar sense it is impossible for anyone to get the drop on daredevil. Where as Hawkeye needs to know what coordinates daredevil is at to hit him.
Wow I cant believe I forgot the Radar sense. His only real power and it slip my mind. lol.
So either way I dont think anyone will get the drop on anyone then.
All right. Very impressive. All though daredevil only has to swat a few arrows out of the air. He only needs to do that while he is Arial which is only for a second at the most.
It really comes down to how many can he swat from HE Machine Gun like fire rate.
Impressive. I believe daredevil has been stated to have superhuman/enhanced reflexes before, if he doesn't than I would rank him there by feats. But what has black widow done thats on par with daredevil in terms of reflexes?
BW has some real good feats.
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Above she can shoot with complete accuracy without aiming at her targets as well not pay full attention to her shooting thanks to her enhancements. It even distracts HE how she talks casually and kills in droves.
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One of the most Impressive feats is her Superhuman Speed and Skill aloow her to kill targets at superhuman run (Scan 3) but also jumps from one building to the other while catching and accurately firing a sniper rifle before sliding to a stop.
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The X-Jet (muitple Machs) Blasts off and she saves not only her team from being spalt but manages to get on the jet and place bombs and then land safely from the altitude.
None of these Super feats (and others) help her from HE Aim and Arrows.
Hitting him in the eye is impressive but he did seem a little distracted and I don't know about ultimate sabretooth but 616 sabretooth does tend to tank attacks as opposed to dodge them. Does ultimate sabretooth operate the same way as 616?
Sabertooth was distracted but the point was a Eye Shot on a thrashing Mutant who is ontop of another trashing mutant. He also does tend to avoid attacks.
Wolverines Attacks.
Like Beast Attack (Beast who is also super human Agile).
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Here he does his best to avoid any damage and succeeds for the most part against the speed and skill of Wolverine as well Storm.
Pretty much the same as above. 616 Brock was always capable of dodging but he never bothered to because he never needed to. Does ultimate venom dodge attacks in character?
Venom is a tank.... nothing to be siad here. I like how HE is just jumping around and eye shots him.
As nice a feat as this is do these soldiers have any feats? I mean as I said daredevil isn't any where near as accurate as hawkeye but he is still quite accurate. Hawkeye as far as I am concerned is dodging the aim of the shooter, this would be a lot harder to do against a competent marksmen.
As for the feat of taking on multiple solider you sure he dodged gun fire from them? I assumed he gun blitzed them.@jashro44:
The Soldiers feats are the fact there train Marksmen with some skill and knowledge on aiming and firing a gun vs the dodge feats of Thugs, Gangsters, Pimps, wannabe Bank Robbers, ect who never been train to any degree or work with tactics and fire plans.
That is were the feat is impressive. He dodging well train gun fire and killing for over 2 miles of war zone.
Another thing i like to point out is his HE determination and ability to tank Pain.
Here he is shot many times and still shows accuracy with kitchen utensils.
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Then after being shot and tortured for days since he kills a room full of Body Armour Guards with his fingernails to escape. He then in his crappy state joins the Ultimates vs the Liberation Front Super Humans.
This goes to show the length HE is willing to go.
Also you showed Morals is on which is a slight benefit to HE as well. HE will kill to win (he was recruited in prison because he murder someone) where DD will try non lethal means of fighting. This is always a huge benefit of Someone going all out vs someone holding back.
I never saw the whole fight of part 2 but I dint like how Punisher was written out of character of going trigger happy at all. That was WIS a bit as Punisher always calmly fires control burst instead of full auto. He says as much in his own comics.
Also we both know Punisher holds back alot as well against DD. Tho Punisher win probably only 2 random Encounter fights he always hold back.
I don't know if I would say its wis exactly. Personally I read it as punisher was put in severe pain by daredevil with a pressure point and the pain was to much he couldn't focus anymore (which considering his pain tolerance is a pretty incredible feat for daredevil) which through him off. I mean after the pressure point punisher was asking stuff like "what is he babbling about?" I don't think punisher has anything to be embarrassed about with daredevil unleashing a pressure point which is to much for Frank to handle. Daredevil has taken out Mr.Hyde (a thor villain) with a pressure point in the past.
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Not saying punisher has taken a pressure point strong enough to take out a thor villain per say, but daredevil knowing a pressure point which causes the punisher so much pain even he can't handle is possible IMO. The only character I think has better technical knowledge than daredevil is batman. Besides later on in the same series punisher and daredevil had this fight where they broke each others bones. So punisher didn't leave the series getting to badly treated. Its just when he tried to shoot daredevil he couldn't tag Matt due to his dodging skills, he was able to hold his own later on due to his pain tolerance and dirty fighting. All though it should be noted that they were fighting in an enclosed space which may have helped Frank out a little.
All though punisher does pull his shots sometimes and it is acknowledged Frank holds back this idea sometimes gets scrapped. For example punisher was willing to shoot spider-man. Its possible punisher was pulling his shot there admittedly all though the idea does sometimes get ignored so its also possible he wasn't.
Anyway Hakweye wont have this problem of inaccurate fire from lost of control. He never lost control while fighting. When he did lost control he killed 10+ Super humans with Captain Britain Suits. (Confirmed 60+ Toners with matching Durability and flight)
As seen the Suits are tough...
Hawkeye killed all these guys by himself. Saving Quick Silver.
If they have the durability to match how did he kill them with arrows?
Wow I cant believe I forgot the Radar sense. His only real power and it slip my mind. lol.
So either way I dont think anyone will get the drop on anyone then.
Well Hawkeyes ability to keep track of coordinates may help him know the environment how will it help him know where daredevil is? Daredevil isn't going to stay at one set of coordinates at all time. Where as daredevil will be able to sense everything in the environment.
It really comes down to how many can he swat from HE Machine Gun like fire rate.
Daredevil has been able to catch multiple arrows at a time before. Even when they were shot at him at the same time.
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And keep in mind all daredevil has to do is swat arrows while he is leaping for cover. It probably only takes him a second to leap for cover.
BW has some real good feats.
Above she can shoot with complete accuracy without aiming at her targets as well not pay full attention to her shooting thanks to her enhancements. It even distracts HE how she talks casually and kills in droves.
One of the most Impressive feats is her Superhuman Speed and Skill aloow her to kill targets at superhuman run (Scan 3) but also jumps from one building to the other while catching and accurately firing a sniper rifle before sliding to a stop.
The X-Jet (muitple Machs) Blasts off and she saves not only her team from being spalt but manages to get on the jet and place bombs and then land safely from the altitude.
None of these Super feats (and others) help her from HE Aim and Arrows.
The first 2 feats seem to be more so accuracy feats than they are speed and agility. All though the last feat is very impressive admittedly.
Sabertooth was distracted but the point was a Eye Shot on a thrashing Mutant who is ontop of another trashing mutant. He also does tend to avoid attacks.
Wolverines Attacks.
Like Beast Attack (Beast who is also super human Agile).
Here he does his best to avoid any damage and succeeds for the most part against the speed and skill of Wolverine as well Storm.
Very impressive, all though daredevil wont be distracted in this setup.
The Soldiers feats are the fact there train Marksmen with some skill and knowledge on aiming and firing a gun vs the dodge feats of Thugs, Gangsters, Pimps, wannabe Bank Robbers, ect who never been train to any degree or work with tactics and fire plans.
That is were the feat is impressive. He dodging well train gun fire and killing for over 2 miles of war zone.
Well sure they do have training but I doubt there accuracy is as good as daredevils. Its generally agreed that when street levelers dodge bullets and stuff there dodging the aim of the shooter (unless they have showings of reacting to the bullets themselves). Even though they have training they still aren't as accurate as Matt is. I doubt these soldiers can hit the bullseye on an archery target several times in a row. Even from 2 miles there is a strong chance ultimate hawkeye is dodging the aim. With super human sight (you yourself said in your first post he can zoom in on targets) he can easily tell the aim of a shooter even from 2 miles away. Its impressive but I don't think its enough to dodge a billy club toss from daredevil.
Also even if Matt does miss initially his billy club could ricochet off the wall and hit ultimate hawkeye in the back of the head. Or he can set ultimate hawkeye and force him to dodge by richocheting his billy club off multiple walls in a certain direction making it easier for daredevil to close the gap.
Another thing i like to point out is his HE determination and ability to tank Pain.
Here he is shot many times and still shows accuracy with kitchen utensils.
Then after being shot and tortured for days since he kills a room full of Body Armour Guards with his fingernails to escape. He then in his crappy state joins the Ultimates vs the Liberation Front Super Humans.
This goes to show the length HE is willing to go.
Very impressive all though I have all ready uploaded scans of daredevil over loading the pain tolerance of the punisher. And punisher has his own insane pain tolerance feats. For example the fight where Daken killed him is pretty crazy. The damage punisher takes is the following before he falls:
Gets shot in the leg
Had a broken leg (sewage also fills the hole in his calf)
impaled through the stomach by Dakens claws
Stabbed in the chest
kicked in the face
Stabbed through the wrist
Gets half his face cut off
his throat slashed
Both his arms chopped off
And that's what it takes to causes the punisher to fall down. And he remarked how a pressure point from daredevil hurt really badly and the pain made punisher unfocused. And he has dropped Hyde a thor villain before as well.
Not to say pain tolerance isn't a big deal but I believe daredevils pressure points are enough to over come that pain tolerance.
And daredevil has his own pain tolerance as well
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Also you showed Morals is on which is a slight benefit to HE as well. HE will kill to win (he was recruited in prison because he murder someone) where DD will try non lethal means of fighting. This is always a huge benefit of Someone going all out vs someone holding back.
I will admit Hakeye is more willing to kill but he needs to be able to land a kill shot to do it ;). I doubt hawkeye has hand to hand feats so he needs to be able to be able to hit daredevil with arrows or something else in the environment. I still think daredevil takes this 6/10 in a very tough fight.
I don't know if I would say its wis exactly. Personally I read it as punisher was put in severe pain by daredevil with a pressure point and the pain was to much he couldn't focus anymore (which considering his pain tolerance is a pretty incredible feat for daredevil) which through him off. I mean after the pressure point punisher was asking stuff like "what is he babbling about?" I don't think punisher has anything to be embarrassed about with daredevil unleashing a pressure point which is to much for Frank to handle. Daredevil has taken out Mr.Hyde (a thor villain) with a pressure point in the past.
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Not saying punisher has taken a pressure point strong enough to take out a thor villain per say, but daredevil knowing a pressure point which causes the punisher so much pain even he can't handle is possible IMO. The only character I think has better technical knowledge than daredevil is batman. Besides later on in the same series punisher and daredevil had this fight where they broke each others bones. So punisher didn't leave the series getting to badly treated. Its just when he tried to shoot daredevil he couldn't tag Matt due to his dodging skills, he was able to hold his own later on due to his pain tolerance and dirty fighting. All though it should be noted that they were fighting in an enclosed space which may have helped Frank out a little.
All though punisher does pull his shots sometimes and it is acknowledged Frank holds back this idea sometimes gets scrapped. For example punisher was willing to shoot spider-man. Its possible punisher was pulling his shot there admittedly all though the idea does sometimes get ignored so its also possible he wasn't.
We never know Punishers thoughts without the Black Bubble.
Also to note Pressure Points are not meant to beat someone with pain, it hurts like funny bone can hurt but the real point of a Pressure Point is to temporary disable said body part and control bleeding.
The thing is Punisher hit by PP should have not been so much disabled by pain at all. That whole thing just dont sit well with me.
If they have the durability to match how did he kill them with arrows?
HE is just that awesome. ;)
Wonder Woman dilemma. Blunt Damage not piercing damage.
Still impressive against train killers who can one shot HE and cramped in a a small room. :)
Well Hawkeyes ability to keep track of coordinates may help him know the environment how will it help him know where daredevil is? Daredevil isn't going to stay at one set of coordinates at all time. Where as daredevil will be able to sense everything in the environment.
I think HE Mental Coordinates helps vs any surprise attacks on DD side when he ducks out of sight as well helps HE aim.
Daredevil has been able to catch multiple arrows at a time before. Even when they were shot at him at the same time.
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And keep in mind all daredevil has to do is swat arrows while he is leaping for cover. It probably only takes him a second to leap for cover.
I will say 2 things here.
1) Arrows from both those scans are traditional bows. HE uses a SHIELD issue Composite Bow and considering the fastest bow in the world can be around 420+ FPS I say its safe to say HE is that speed. Those bows are Re-curve and Long Bows. Looking at 120-180 FPS Average. Big Difference in Speed and DD effectiveness to catch the arrows like those.
2) Those guys accuracy and skill in Bows are far less to HE.
Not to say DD cannot snatch a few. I just think there is major difference in Speed and Skill of HE arrow shots.
The first 2 feats seem to be more so accuracy feats than they are speed and agility. All though the last feat is very impressive admittedly.
There good speed feats. You have to at the least 3 times faster than the average Sprint Runner to make that jump from across the street and have faster than human reflexes to catch the gun during drop, timing of drop, and accurately rapid fire a Sniper Rifle. She also as shown her incredible reaction ability by holding a casual conversation and shooting where she not even looking to hit targets.
Well sure they do have training but I doubt there accuracy is as good as daredevils. Its generally agreed that when street levelers dodge bullets and stuff there dodging the aim of the shooter (unless they have showings of reacting to the bullets themselves). Even though they have training they still aren't as accurate as Matt is. I doubt these soldiers can hit the bullseye on an archery target several times in a row. Even from 2 miles there is a strong chance ultimate hawkeye is dodging the aim. With super human sight (you yourself said in your first post he can zoom in on targets) he can easily tell the aim of a shooter even from 2 miles away. Its impressive but I don't think its enough to dodge a billy club toss from daredevil.
Also even if Matt does miss initially his billy club could ricochet off the wall and hit ultimate hawkeye in the back of the head. Or he can set ultimate hawkeye and force him to dodge by richocheting his billy club off multiple walls in a certain direction making it easier for daredevil to close the gap.
To clear up some things I notice here. Examples being 2 miles. the Longest shots in the world with Sniper Rifles are barely over a mile. Also these Soldiers are in ruin fill streets, they barely have 100 feet of Line of Sight much less a single quarter mile. So HE is dodging close shots. Also you may be right on hitting bulls eyes seven times a row. However soldiers are train to hit center mass. The point of they are train soldiers as a feat is we have 5 or more of these accurate shooters all missing. HE is dodging close to accurate shots from guys who train to hit center mass from barely a quarter mile away.
Its also not his only Dodge feat.
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Here HE reacts and dodges a Bomb. Same bomb kills over 600 SHIELD agents. HE not only finds the best way to survive and doge the blast but manages to save a agent as well with him. Pretty good dodging Bombs Blast.
Very impressive all though I have all ready uploaded scans of daredevil over loading the pain tolerance of the punisher. And punisher has his own insane pain tolerance feats. For example the fight where Daken killed him is pretty crazy. The damage punisher takes is the following before he falls:
Gets shot in the leg
Had a broken leg (sewage also fills the hole in his calf)
impaled through the stomach by Dakens claws
Stabbed in the chest
kicked in the face
Stabbed through the wrist
Gets half his face cut off
his throat slashed
Both his arms chopped off
And that's what it takes to causes the punisher to fall down. And he remarked how a pressure point from daredevil hurt really badly and the pain made punisher unfocused. And he has dropped Hyde a thor villain before as well.
Not to say pain tolerance isn't a big deal but I believe daredevils pressure points are enough to over come that pain tolerance.
And daredevil has his own pain tolerance as well
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Another reason why Punisher tends to lose to guys like Wolverine, Daken, DD, Spider Man is because he gets into H2H. HE stays at range or just out of attack range.
Like he did to Wolvie.
This is a good showing as HE takes on Doc Ock. Doc Ock is attacking HE but HE Dodges himself the same attacks that peg Ultimate Spidey as well staying at a safe reaction rage and un loading.
Point is DD will constantly trying to close a Gap where HE will be making distance. If DD did close the Gap HE is beyond helpless. He is a train H2H fighter as well.
He in this shows off some of that said skill by taking out 2 Eternals (yes super powered level humans) with a single attack.
My point is he should more than parry and dodge the main attacks enough to gain distance again and fight on his terms while DD is constantly dodging Machine Gun Fire 420+ FPS Arrows.
I will admit Hakeye is more willing to kill but he needs to be able to land a kill shot to do it ;). I doubt hawkeye has hand to hand feats so he needs to be able to be able to hit daredevil with arrows or something else in the environment. I still think daredevil takes this 6/10 in a very tough fight.
I will post this last battle as point driven home of why HE can win this.
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Here we have 3 Eernals. All have flight. One has Light Constructs. One has Cyke Beams. The first one (Red one) ripped a Heli Carrier in half with his Magnetic Powers. These are also train soldiers. HE kills all 3 of them in moments.
HE shows his exceptional Dodge, tactics, Accuracy, and willingness to go all out all the time. To me these are the real key elements he possess to help win here.
I'm fresh out of HE scans as of now and ready for votes after your rebuttal.
We never know Punishers thoughts without the Black Bubble.
Well its not stated that the pain is what made punisher unfocused and lose control but it seems to be what is shown. Up until the pressure point we see daredevil and punisher talking with each other, and then after the pressure point we see punisher remark the pain and then he starts thinking "whats he babbling about?" when daredevil is talking to him after the pressure point.
Also to note Pressure Points are not meant to beat someone with pain, it hurts like funny bone can hurt but the real point of a Pressure Point is to temporary disable said body part and control bleeding.
The thing is Punisher hit by PP should have not been so much disabled by pain at all. That whole thing just dont sit well with me.
Well this maybe the case in real life (I'm not an expert on pressure points in real life) but in comics pressure points allowed skilled fighters to do all sorts of things. its comic so the pressure point is made up but it is an ability daredevil has shown. In real life daredevil wouldn't be able to drop Hyde but it happens (and so does stuff similar to that like black panther affecting luke cage, wolverine taking out kid gladiator, etc). IN comics there are various made up techniques and pressure points. Daredevil just knows some pain inducing ones.
HE is just that awesome. ;)
Wonder Woman dilemma. Blunt Damage not piercing damage.
Still impressive against train killers who can one shot HE and cramped in a a small room. :)
All right.
I think HE Mental Coordinates helps vs any surprise attacks on DD side when he ducks out of sight as well helps HE aim.
It might help him keep track of daredevils exists and give him an idea where daredevil can possible go but if he does lose track of daredevil it is still possible daredevil ca sneak up on him. In hawkeyes case not so much.
I will say 2 things here.
1) Arrows from both those scans are traditional bows. HE uses a SHIELD issue Composite Bow and considering the fastest bow in the world can be around 420+ FPS I say its safe to say HE is that speed. Those bows are Re-curve and Long Bows. Looking at 120-180 FPS Average. Big Difference in Speed and DD effectiveness to catch the arrows like those.
2) Those guys accuracy and skill in Bows are far less to HE.
Not to say DD cannot snatch a few. I just think there is major difference in Speed and Skill of HE arrow shots.
Fair enough. All though daredevil has blocked bullseyes projectiles before
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He isn't using a shield bow but he does have some throwing speed feats like the ones posted in my first post that might compare.
There good speed feats. You have to at the least 3 times faster than the average Sprint Runner to make that jump from across the street and have faster than human reflexes to catch the gun during drop, timing of drop, and accurately rapid fire a Sniper Rifle. She also as shown her incredible reaction ability by holding a casual conversation and shooting where she not even looking to hit targets.
All right that is impressive. I don't know how fast daredevil is capable of running all though he has moved faster than thought before.
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And catching the gun is cool but daredevil has been able to deflect multiple bullets in the past (I posted those in one of my posts)
To clear up some things I notice here. Examples being 2 miles. the Longest shots in the world with Sniper Rifles are barely over a mile. Also these Soldiers are in ruin fill streets, they barely have 100 feet of Line of Sight much less a single quarter mile. So HE is dodging close shots. Also you may be right on hitting bulls eyes seven times a row. However soldiers are train to hit center mass. The point of they are train soldiers as a feat is we have 5 or more of these accurate shooters all missing. HE is dodging close to accurate shots from guys who train to hit center mass from barely a quarter mile away.
Its also not his only Dodge feat.
Here HE reacts and dodges a Bomb. Same bomb kills over 600 SHIELD agents. HE not only finds the best way to survive and doge the blast but manages to save a agent as well with him. Pretty good dodging Bombs Blast.
Fair enough all though even if daredevil can't hit him he can at least set him up in a position to make it easier for daredevil to close the gap (make him move in a certain position to trap him in a corner or something along those lines)
Another reason why Punisher tends to lose to guys like Wolverine, Daken, DD, Spider Man is because he gets into H2H. HE stays at range or just out of attack range.
Like he did to Wolvie.
I mostly posted the video to show punishers pain tolerance and I uploaded the scan of daredevil hurting punisher to show that if daredevil can do that to punisher with a pressure point he can drop hawkeye as well. The Hyde example could also work as well. If daredevil closes the gap he can over come hawkeyes pain tolerance in melee.
This is a good showing as HE takes on Doc Ock. Doc Ock is attacking HE but HE Dodges himself the same attacks that peg Ultimate Spidey as well staying at a safe reaction rage and un loading.
Point is DD will constantly trying to close a Gap where HE will be making distance. If DD did close the Gap HE is beyond helpless.
Pretty impressive all though daredevil has been able to dodge 616 ock as well. And it is true that hawkeye will be moving around and trying to keep his distance I think daredevil is probably faster. I have posted scans of daredevil moving faster than thought, disappearing in front of a sniper (that could be argued to be a part of stealth more so but even still). And then there are his agility feats. Daredevil is definitely more agile and his agility will allow him to cut corners. If he has to he can flip over the cover, and with his radar sense it makes it easier to tell where hawkeye is heading so he could head hawkeye of in a certain direction and head him off.
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If DD did close the Gap HE is beyond helpless. He is a train H2H fighter as well.
He in this shows off some of that said skill by taking out 2 Eternals (yes super powered level humans) with a single attack.
My point is he should more than parry and dodge the main attacks enough to gain distance again and fight on his terms while DD is constantly dodging Machine Gun Fire 420+ FPS Arrows.
I doubt hawkeye can go hand to hand with daredevil.
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As for taking out powerful meta humans there are scans of daredevil taking out Hyde as well. Daredevil has better showings of technical knowledge and better showings against other martial artists. He could maybe dodge a billy club but daredevil is capable of closing the gap. Another thing worth pointing out is in his battle with iron fist he shows some nice accuracy by tagging Danny with his Billy club. And iron fist has some pretty crazy reflexes as well.
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And yet daredevil can tag iron fist with his billy club despite iron fists reflexes.
I will post this last battle as point driven home of why HE can win this.
Here we have 3 Eernals. All have flight. One has Light Constructs. One has Cyke Beams. The first one (Red one) ripped a Heli Carrier in half with his Magnetic Powers. These are also train soldiers. HE kills all 3 of them in moments.
HE shows his exceptional Dodge, tactics, Accuracy, and willingness to go all out all the time. To me these are the real key elements he possess to help win here.
Very nice. Admittedly this is a very nice dodging feat. All though I still think Matt has a chance of tagging him (if he can hit iron fist its possible) all though even if he can't he can use his billy club to ricochet it off the many walls in this location which could set hawkeye in a corner. If Hawkeye is against the wall his only hope is to shoot daredevil and I believe Matts sufficient reflexes (deflecting multiple bullets, and projectiles from bullseye), his own small degree of accuracy with his billy club, his radar sense, agility, will allow him to close the gap. And once he closes the gap I believes Matts better martial arts ability will allow him to end the fight. He can over come hawkeyes pain tolerance with pressure points if need be.
I'm fresh out of HE scans as of now and ready for votes after your rebuttal.
Your choice. I'm fine with going to voting if that's what you want. This was a very good debate and I did actually learn a bit about ultimate hawkeye and enjoyed it a lot. Thank you and you did a very nice job defending ultimate hawkeye!
Tough one, if that gap is closed HE stands little chance as proven by Jashro44, but his ability to close that gap is very limited, as proven by CadenceV2.
I wanna say Hawkeye here, so I'm going to.
@CadenceV2: @jashro44:
Good debate from both though, was a tough decision.
@CadenceV2: I'm thinking about it all though I am not that good at arguing a side when I don't believe they are the winner, and also school is going to start soon so I don't know if I got enough time either.
nice match, very interesting scans and arguments, good job. I´ll vote for @jashro44 in this one. I believe he prooved that Daredevil can pull the win after a hard battle..
Are you voting based on who you think wins or who made the better argument?
did I say anything about an opinion or a vote? No... So why question me?
In challenge a viner threads your suppose to vote based on argument and not on who you think wins. I was just wondering if you were just putting your thoughts on the actual battle or putting a vote in because I wasn't really sure.
Very good debate for both sides, but I have to give the edge to Jashro. His feats were almost all directly applicable to the match, whereas Cadence was a little more generic with his debate.
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