Battle for most powerful Marvel Team

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#1  Edited By owie  Moderator

Three Marvel teams of heroes battle it out, round-robin style.  Then the winner of those teams fights your choice of other powerful Marvel team to determine the Most Powerful Marvel Team.
 
The teams:
Original Defenders: Classic Strange, Silver Surfer, Hulk, Namor
 

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Excalibur: Rachel Summers with Phoenix, Captain Britain, Nightcrawler, Meggan, Shadowcat, Kylun, Cerise, Widget, Lockheed
 
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X-Men, right before Dark Phoenix: Jean Grey as Green Phoenix, Cyclops, Professor X, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Storm, Colossus
 
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Round 1: Defenders vs Excalibur
Round 2: Excalibur vs X-Men
Round 3: X-Men vs Defenders
 
Round 4: Winner of the first 3 rounds (whoever wins the most) vs your team

 

Rules: 
Your team has to be a Marvel team of heroes (not villains; Dark Phoenix counts as a villain here).  It has to be a real team with a specific roster that has existed in comics, and has actually gone to battle together.  Characters have the power levels they had when they were in those teams.
(Note: I'm not super-knowledgable about the X-Men in the era when Jean became WPOTC, but my impression is that when she finally became WPOTC, she left this dimension and wasn't with them in any battles.  So if that is more or less true, then no WPOTC because of the "must have gone to battle together" rule.)
No "races" of heroes: all the Inhumans, all the Eternals, etc.
No prep.
Morals on.
Battle is on an uninhabited world with earth-style atmosphere.
Teams start within eyesight of each other.
Win is through KO or incapacitation or death.
No speed blitzing.
No alliances of teams (for instance, "everyone who joined up against the Fault in War of Kings") 

Feel free to choose another era of these teams, or teams with these characters.  For instance, different eras of Jean or Rachel (for instance, Rachel when she was with the X-Men or Starjammers).  If two teams fight and have the same character (for instance, two Rachels against each other), then both characters are in the fight, at the power levels they had in those respective teams. 

Teams you might want to consider to be your team, but feel free to think of others (you need to select a specific roster for the team though):
Avengers (I would have put them in here myself, but got too lazy researching which era had the most powerful roster)
Champions
Annihilators
X-Factor
X-Force
New Mutants
Fantastic Four
Guardians of the Galaxy
Squadron Supreme
West Coast Avengers
Great Lakes Avengers
God Squad
Power Pack (can include Franklin as Tattletale, but consider whatever limitations he put on his power at the time)
Thunderbolts
Agents of Atlas 
Secret Wars hero team
Starjammers
 
SO:
Who wins each of the first 3 rounds?
Who is your team (you need a specific roster)?
Who wins round 4?
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Saren

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#3  Edited By Saren
@Enzeru said:
This looks like a great thread, but I think that I'm going to skip this one, since I would probably end with only a 2-man-team in the round 4: "X-Man and the Sentry" and that wouldn't be accepted :-|
Come on, even those two can't beat Classic Strange. He's one of the two most powerful heroes in comics ever, along with SA Dr. Fate.
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#5  Edited By Killemall
@CitizenBane said:
@Enzeru said:

Come on, even those two can't beat Classic Strange. He's one of the two most powerful heroes in comics ever, along with SA Dr. Fate.
Yep.. have to agree with that..
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#6  Edited By owie  Moderator
@Enzeru said:
@CitizenBane said:
Come on, even those two can't beat Classic Strange. He's one of the two most powerful heroes in comics ever, along with SA Dr. Fate.
Actually, I believe that they can. Not even classic Dr. Strange was able to do something against the Void, while Sentry was. 
Sentry also already resisted Strange's magic with the explanation that he was always too powerful for that kind of magic (Dr. Strange was using black magic) and knocked Strange out.
Was it really Classic Strange?  By which I would mean the Strange in the 60s through maybe 80s?
 
Anyway, you can certainly have a Sentry entry here by putting him in with the New Avengers.  It wouldn't be Void though, per the no villains rule.
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#8  Edited By TheMightyAvenger

The Defenders win from those three teams, because of Classic Strange. I'll post my own team later.

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#9  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

Classic Strange and Silver Surfer on the same team?
 
Defenders stomp.

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#10  Edited By owie  Moderator
@JediXMan said:
Classic Strange and Silver Surfer on the same team?  Defenders stomp.
So you'd say Classic Strange + Surfer are more powerful than either Jean or Rachel as Phoenix to the degree its a stomp?  I'm not necessarily arguing that they wouldn't win, just curious.  I mean Rachel did go up against Galactus, that's a fairly Classic Strange level feat.  I don't think Jean had a ton of feats on that level pre-Dark Phoenix, but I could be wrong.  Of course, there are those (and I would tend to agree) who would say that Dark Phoenix wasn't actually more powerful than Green, just more evil, so Dark's feats might apply.
 
@Killemall
@CitizenBane:
So who do you guys think would win?  Have any teams you'd put against them?
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#11  Edited By daak1212

Classic Strange!!!!!!!!

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#12  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
@Owie said:
@JediXMan said:
Classic Strange and Silver Surfer on the same team?  Defenders stomp.
So you'd say Classic Strange + Surfer are more powerful than either Jean or Rachel as Phoenix to the degree its a stomp?  I'm not necessarily arguing that they wouldn't win, just curious.  I mean Rachel did go up against Galactus, that's a fairly Classic Strange level feat.  I don't think Jean had a ton of feats on that level pre-Dark Phoenix, but I could be wrong.  Of course, there are those (and I would tend to agree) who would say that Dark Phoenix wasn't actually more powerful than Green, just more evil, so Dark's feats might apply.
Rachel isn't here. It also appears that this version of the Phoenix is a weaker version. Classic Strange has done battle with powerful Cosmic beings, the Living Tribunal being one.
 
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lord_oraculous016

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@JediXMan said: 
Rachel isn't here. It also appears that this version of the Phoenix is a weaker version. Classic Strange has done battle with powerful Cosmic beings, the Living Tribunal being one.
true.. Rachel as Phoenix is far weaker than Jean as Phoenix.. the only time Rachel rivaled Jean was when she fought the Beyonder.. also, Doctor Strange didn't actually fought the Living Tribunal in the conventional manner.. LT had no intentions of killing Strange.. the whole point of the battle is for Doctor Strange to prove to LT that he is a powerful sorcerer, for if not LT would destroy the Earth.. 
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#14  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
@lord_oraculous016 said:
@JediXMan said: 
Rachel isn't here. It also appears that this version of the Phoenix is a weaker version. Classic Strange has done battle with powerful Cosmic beings, the Living Tribunal being one.
true.. Rachel as Phoenix is far weaker than Jean as Phoenix.. the only time Rachel rivaled Jean was when she fought the Beyonder.. also, Doctor Strange didn't actually fought the Living Tribunal in the conventional manner.. LT had no intentions of killing Strange.. the whole point of the battle is for Doctor Strange to prove to LT that he is a powerful sorcerer, for if not LT would destroy the Earth.. 
I know. Still a good feat, though.
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@JediXMan said: 
I know. Still a good feat, though.
well, yes.. but its not as huge of a feat as some may think.. the point is, LT could have easily destroyed Strange then and there.. but true, it is still impressive..
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#16  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
@lord_oraculous016 said:
@JediXMan said: 
I know. Still a good feat, though.
well, yes.. but its not as huge of a feat as some may think.. the point is, LT could have easily destroyed Strange then and there.. but true, it is still impressive..
I in no way mean that Classic Strange can beat LT. But he's still formidable. That and he's up against a weaker version of the Phoenix.
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#17  Edited By cattlebattle
@JediXMan said:
Classic Strange and Silver Surfer on the same team?  Defenders stomp.
This is the correct answer, not to mention they have Hulk and what looks to be classic Namor, and half of Excalibur and X-Men teams are fodder for characters of that level
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Defenders all rounds.
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lord_oraculous016

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@JediXMan said: 
I in no way mean that Classic Strange can beat LT. But he's still formidable. That and he's up against a weaker version of the Phoenix.
true.. nice fact is, during the Korvac Saga, Korvac removed three heroes as he thinks that they are the only ones who actually pose a threat to him.. they were Doctor Strange, Phoenix and Silver Surfer.. 
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#20  Edited By Saren
@Owie: Classic Strange went up against the Living Tribunal once, and even he remarked that Strange was extremely powerful. I think the Defenders take this handily. 
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@CitizenBane said:
@Owie: Classic Strange went up against the Living Tribunal once, and even he remarked that Strange was extremely powerful. I think the Defenders take this handily. 
actually as that battle is not really serious as LT was only testing Doctor Strange, i would the battle between Rachel and Galactus to be more impressive.. 
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#22  Edited By Saren
@lord_oraculous016 said:
@CitizenBane said:
@Owie: Classic Strange went up against the Living Tribunal once, and even he remarked that Strange was extremely powerful. I think the Defenders take this handily. 
actually as that battle is not really serious as LT was only testing Doctor Strange, i would the battle between Rachel and Galactus to be more impressive.. 
I know. But LT was impressed with Strange.
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@CitizenBane said: 
I know. But LT was impressed with Strange.
true.. but Phoenix and Galactus with every intention to actually defeat the other.. that level of battle still tops a form of simulation which Doctor Strange had with LT, imho.. 
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#24  Edited By progenitorigin
@JediXMan said:
Classic Strange and Silver Surfer on the same team?  Defenders stomp.
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#25  Edited By owie  Moderator
@JediXMan said:

Rachel isn't here. It also appears that this version of the Phoenix is a weaker version. Classic Strange has done battle with powerful Cosmic beings, the Living Tribunal being one.
 
Rachel is here; her picture shows her a bit smaller than the rest because it's an action shot, so it might not have been as obvious.
 
I would certainly that classic Strange is extremely powerful, at the very upper echelon.  And I know the Rachel/Galactus fight was with a weakened Galactus, and LT is more powerful than Galactus.  But from what Rachel said, she could have theoretically drawn on more power from future lives to amp up her power enough to defeat him.  So in my mind, that puts Rachel and Strange on at least a close level.  I'm a little ambivalent in this fight, but I lean towards the Defenders myself.  But I wouldn't say stomp.
 
@lord_oraculous016 said:
@JediXMan said: 
Rachel isn't here. It also appears that this version of the Phoenix is a weaker version. Classic Strange has done battle with powerful Cosmic beings, the Living Tribunal being one.
true.. Rachel as Phoenix is far weaker than Jean as Phoenix.. the only time Rachel rivaled Jean was when she fought the Beyonder.. also, Doctor Strange didn't actually fought the Living Tribunal in the conventional manner.. LT had no intentions of killing Strange.. the whole point of the battle is for Doctor Strange to prove to LT that he is a powerful sorcerer, for if not LT would destroy the Earth.. 
This is an interesting point to me.  I've heard people say Rachel is weaker than Jean (remember this is the original Jean Pheonix, not a later one), and perhaps that she even admitted it, but I don't know much in the way of actual feats for Jean as Green Phoenix.  What did she do in that form to put her above Rachel?
 
A later Rachel made a black hole, for instance, in addition to the various Beyonder fights, various other Secret War activities, and Galactus battle she did when she was younger.  She's always just seemed more powerful to me--she really took on the Phoenix role and power happily, and in my mind that made her a more dextrous user of it.
 

@lord_oraculous016 said:
@JediXMan said: 
I in no way mean that Classic Strange can beat LT. But he's still formidable. That and he's up against a weaker version of the Phoenix.
true.. nice fact is, during the Korvac Saga, Korvac removed three heroes as he thinks that they are the only ones who actually pose a threat to him.. they were Doctor Strange, Phoenix and Silver Surfer.. 

That is a cool fact.
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#26  Edited By owie  Moderator

Also, any other teams you think can take the Defenders (or X-Men or Excalibur)?
 
Annihilators?  Power Pack with a self-limited Franklin Richards? The God Squad?

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#27  Edited By LordOfAllHumans
@Owie said:
@JediXMan said:

Rachel isn't here. It also appears that this version of the Phoenix is a weaker version. Classic Strange has done battle with powerful Cosmic beings, the Living Tribunal being one.
 
Rachel is here; her picture shows her a bit smaller than the rest because it's an action shot, so it might not have been as obvious.
 
I would certainly that classic Strange is extremely powerful, at the very upper echelon.  And I know the Rachel/Galactus fight was with a weakened Galactus, and LT is more powerful than Galactus.  But from what Rachel said, she could have theoretically drawn on more power from future lives to amp up her power enough to defeat him.  So in my mind, that puts Rachel and Strange on at least a close level.  I'm a little ambivalent in this fight, but I lean towards the Defenders myself.  But I wouldn't say stomp.
 
@lord_oraculous016 said:
@JediXMan said: 
Rachel isn't here. It also appears that this version of the Phoenix is a weaker version. Classic Strange has done battle with powerful Cosmic beings, the Living Tribunal being one.
true.. Rachel as Phoenix is far weaker than Jean as Phoenix.. the only time Rachel rivaled Jean was when she fought the Beyonder.. also, Doctor Strange didn't actually fought the Living Tribunal in the conventional manner.. LT had no intentions of killing Strange.. the whole point of the battle is for Doctor Strange to prove to LT that he is a powerful sorcerer, for if not LT would destroy the Earth.. 
This is an interesting point to me.  I've heard people say Rachel is weaker than Jean (remember this is the original Jean Pheonix, not a later one), and perhaps that she even admitted it, but I don't know much in the way of actual feats for Jean as Green Phoenix.  What did she do in that form to put her above Rachel?
 
A later Rachel made a black hole, for instance, in addition to the various Beyonder fights, various other Secret War activities, and Galactus battle she did when she was younger.  She's always just seemed more powerful to me--she really took on the Phoenix role and power happily, and in my mind that made her a more dextrous user of it.
 

@lord_oraculous016 said:
@JediXMan said: 
I in no way mean that Classic Strange can beat LT. But he's still formidable. That and he's up against a weaker version of the Phoenix.
true.. nice fact is, during the Korvac Saga, Korvac removed three heroes as he thinks that they are the only ones who actually pose a threat to him.. they were Doctor Strange, Phoenix and Silver Surfer.. 
That is a cool fact.
Jean as Phoenix was more powerful than Rachel simply because Rachel, unlike Jean could not tap the full power of the Phoenix, the only time she touched this power was when it was given to her by another.  
 
Rachel would seem more powerful because also unlike Jean the did not hold back with the amount of Phoenix she could tap.  Jean immediately placed blocks on her powers after she saved all that is from the M'Kraan crystal, but even with these blocks in place each time she used her power, they grew exponentially.  The main difference is that Jean shows more restraint than Rachel. 
 
It should also be noted (in regards to Classic Strange), that Inferno was something that even he could not deal with and he needed Rachel and the Phoenix, in the end the Phoenix in Maddie reconnected with Jean and Inferno was wiped away in one shot.
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#28  Edited By owie  Moderator
@LordOfAllHumans said:
Jean as Phoenix was more powerful than Rachel simply because Rachel, unlike Jean could not tap the full power of the Phoenix, the only time she touched this power was when it was given to her by another.   Rachel would seem more powerful because also unlike Jean the did not hold back with the amount of Phoenix she could tap.  Jean immediately placed blocks on her powers after she saved all that is from the M'Kraan crystal, but even with these blocks in place each time she used her power, they grew exponentially.  The main difference is that Jean shows more restraint than Rachel.  It should also be noted (in regards to Classic Strange), that Inferno was something that even he could not deal with and he needed Rachel and the Phoenix, in the end the Phoenix in Maddie reconnected with Jean and Inferno was wiped away in one shot.
I guess in my mind this is an acts versus potential situation then.  Since Rachel was willing to use it, she accomplished more impressive things, while Jean was "gunshy" of the power, essentially.  Which means that if Jean didn't want to/was afraid to use the full power, then she essentially was not as powerful; she couldn't handle it.  So Rachel was more powerful by deeds, or at least on a regular basis.
 
I've always thought of Rachel as a fairy innate and natural user of the Phoenix, rather than just using it second-hand, so to speak.  I haven't read the early 2000s stuff where Jean takes it back from everyone though, that might have put a different spin on Rachel's affinity for hosting.
 
The M'Kraan crystal thing is a major feat for Jean as Phoenix though.
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#29  Edited By LordOfAllHumans
@Owie said:
@LordOfAllHumans said:
Jean as Phoenix was more powerful than Rachel simply because Rachel, unlike Jean could not tap the full power of the Phoenix, the only time she touched this power was when it was given to her by another.   Rachel would seem more powerful because also unlike Jean the did not hold back with the amount of Phoenix she could tap.  Jean immediately placed blocks on her powers after she saved all that is from the M'Kraan crystal, but even with these blocks in place each time she used her power, they grew exponentially.  The main difference is that Jean shows more restraint than Rachel.  It should also be noted (in regards to Classic Strange), that Inferno was something that even he could not deal with and he needed Rachel and the Phoenix, in the end the Phoenix in Maddie reconnected with Jean and Inferno was wiped away in one shot.
I guess in my mind this is an acts versus potential situation then.  Since Rachel was willing to use it, she accomplished more impressive things, while Jean was "gunshy" of the power, essentially.  Which means that if Jean didn't want to/was afraid to use the full power, then she essentially was not as powerful; she couldn't handle it.  So Rachel was more powerful by deeds, or at least on a regular basis.  I've always thought of Rachel as a fairy innate and natural user of the Phoenix, rather than just using it second-hand, so to speak.  I haven't read the early 2000s stuff where Jean takes it back from everyone though, that might have put a different spin on Rachel's affinity for hosting. The M'Kraan crystal thing is a major feat for Jean as Phoenix though.
Jean is gunshy because she was trained by Xavier to restrain her power, his first lessons with her began with him turning some of them off, there is a "song" that Jean and Rachel hear when using the Phoenix, Jean at times gave into the song, but also saw a vision of DP due to that, so she cut them down, she handled them pretty well considering she had just gotten them and contained M'Kraan on her own.   
 
Rachel was trained to be a hound and use as much force as possible to get the job done, killing friend and foe alike, her morals are little looser is all. 
 
I don't think it's about her not being to handle the power, because when Rachel got the full power she couldn't handle it either and was going to destroy the entire universe to put down one being.  what Jean did not want to handle was not being in control and being corrupted by power so she held back, once the blocks and restraint was gone, she used her power to the fullest and became Dark Phoenix.  It's not the power that she can't contain or handle because all in all she was basically built to be the physical body of the Phoenix, it's the consequences of using that power and how far removed from human she becomes when doing so that she does not want to deal with, which is why she spent most of her career after returning to the Xmen denying that at it's core Dark Phoenix was just as much her as it was the Phoenix Force, it even corrupted Maddie and drove her insane...until Death and again Prosh explained to her that in the end it was all her.
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God Squad beats all they have the God-Eater and the Chaos King let alone Hercules and Snowbird