2 of the Combine would technically be nearly powerless at this location since the Dead isn’t near any deceased and Idol isn’t powered by people’s belief.
2 of the Combine would technically be nearly powerless at this location since the Dead isn’t near any deceased and Idol isn’t powered by people’s belief.
I'll edit the thread to make the location near a graveyard, and that Idol is powered by the same amount of people as when fought Thor.
If they’re reasonably powered like when they fought the Avengers then I’d think the Combine would win. I don’t think they have an answer to Lord Ennui’s powers or the Dead’s illusions. I think the remaining members can at least hold the rest of the League off.
Like she has armies inside her, and given the strength of a couple of her warriors is significant against Vision, then I say the Ashen Combine will win via attrition.
More than half of the Combine can fly/levitate and Lord Ennui, who doesn't, has an entropic field that prevents that:
It doesn't matter if they can fly or levitate. Cyborg can boom tube them into a black hole. Ennui was overwhelmed after Carol exploded a fuel tanker around herself and she had more power output than his entropy field could handle. I could argue there are members of the JL capable of replicating that but given Victor manipulates gravity vortices with his boom tubes and Ennui is obviously subject to gravity he's getting the BFR too.
She needed the tanker to ignite her binary form. If it was a fuel tanker that overloaded him, idk why she didn’t just throw it at him directly, lol. Specifically, Ennui explicitly compared the output she was giving to that of a star.
Also, how is Cyborg doing that if he’s being overwhelmed by both illusions from Dead and an army of minions that can overwhelm Vision?
She needed the tanker to ignite her binary form. If it was a fuel tanker that overloaded him, idk why she didn’t just throw it at him directly, lol. Specifically, Ennui explicitly compared the output she was giving to that of a star.
Also, how is Cyborg doing that if he’s being overwhelmed by both illusions from Dead and an army of minions that can overwhelm Vision?
The "army of minions" is nothing. Victor generates a protective force field and booms all of them away.
Whom has Dead overwhelmed with illusions? Can Dead even create illusions that Cyborg won't see through? Illusions need to fool Superman's senses, Aquaman's senses, Wonder Woman's senses, two GL rings sensors, and Cyborg's senses that have the best feats here.
Wanda wasn't overwhelmed and BFR'd Dead away from that power source and Cyborg can repeat that.
Which leads to my next question,,, Why are two members of the Ashen Combine attacking Cyborg at all when they're already outnumbered here? This is a morals off / blood lusted 8 person JL team with a massive speed advantage over a 5 person team that has virtually no feats from the only fight they have in comics.
Under those conditions Cyborg can also scramble their brains into goo through hax.
Getting back to 2 people going for Cyborg, that leaves 7 JL members on 3 AC members. How are they surviving Barry Allen who can kill most of them before they can think? Or Aquaman when he uses his telepathic abilities offensively under those conditions?
The JL has numbers, speed, and hax; and the AC isn't going to start dogpiling Cyborg in a random encounter just because I pointed out he can take an easy win via BFR ;-)
She needed the tanker to ignite her binary form. If it was a fuel tanker that overloaded him, idk why she didn’t just throw it at him directly, lol. Specifically, Ennui explicitly compared the output she was giving to that of a star.
Also, how is Cyborg doing that if he’s being overwhelmed by both illusions from Dead and an army of minions that can overwhelm Vision?
Lord Ennui says he'd have just eaten the fuel tanker up.
That said these Leaguers have atrocious anti-feats lol so it's a Pyrrhic victory at best
The "army of minions" is nothing. Victor generates a protectiveforce field and booms all of them away.
In a bloodlusted state, I'm sure Victor's first priority is to focus on creating protection and not immediately attacking.
Whom has Dead overwhelmed with illusions? Can Dead even create illusions that Cyborg won't see through? Illusions need to fool Superman's senses, Aquaman's senses, Wonder Woman's senses, two GL rings sensors, and Cyborg's senses that have the best feats here.
More like they need resistance against TP better than Wanda's who has insane resistance in that regard. She's dropped planetary telepaths in weaker versions and in recent years defeated characters with casual planetary feats while they're insanely amped. I *highly* doubt Victor, or most of the JL, has resistance against magic TP on the level that Wanda does.
Wanda wasn't overwhelmed and BFR'd Dead away from that power source and Cyborg can repeat that.
The point is she struggles greatly with it despite having insane TP resistance. Unless Cyborg has better, he's never going to do be able to do anything at all.
Which leads to my next question,,, Why are two members of the Ashen Combine attacking Cyborg at all when they're already outnumbered here? This is a morals off / blood lusted 8 person JL team with a massive speed advantage over a 5 person team that has virtually no feats from the only fight they have in comics.
This isn't a 1v1, it's a team fight, and two characters can generate armies instantly and endlessly, so the better question would be why wouldn't these armies or visions target everyone indiscriminately, including Victor, when the entire team is in the same area? lol.
Under those conditions Cyborg can also scramble their brains into goo through hax.
With what? It could be easily countered by any of the Combine for all I know, you make no reference to what Victor is doing or why he'd do it faster than anyone else can react.
Getting back to 2 people going for Cyborg, that leaves 7 JL members on 3 AC members. How are they surviving Barry Allen who can kill most of them before they can think?
If he tries what you're saying, he's going to run straight towards the Combine and get one-shotted by Lord Ennui's entropy field seeing as how he'd be near them at the start, lol. Practically all of the Combine aren't glass cannons, so idk what kind of AP you think Rebirth Flash is packing here.
Or Aquaman when he uses his telepathic abilities offensively under those conditions?
I *highly* doubt Rebirth Aquaman has anywhere close to as good TP showings as Wanda.
The JL has numbers,
Two characters in the Combine can literally spawn an endless army (one of which was overwhelming Vision and the other the Scarlet Witch, two characters who are either stronger than most or all of the JL individually), so I love that you think you can bring numbers up here, lol
speed, and hax;
You've demonstrated none of these things for anyone, you're just declaring that it's the case. And what hax have you even brought up? The ability to create a portal? lol
and the AC isn't going to start dogpiling Cyborg in a random encounter just because I pointed out he can take an easy win via BFR ;-)
Yeah, I'm sure none of the hundreds and thousands of armies will even notice Cyborg.
I'd love to see feats Rebirth Cyborg instantly BFRing thousands of people too in combat before they react, btw. Also, bloodlusted means he's going for the kill, so even if BFR is a win condition, that's not what's going to do here.
Lord Ennui says he'd have just eaten the fuel tanker up.
That said these Leaguers have atrocious anti-feats lol so it's a Pyrrhic victory at best
True, and Ennui even compares the power Binary was outputting to that of a star:
And yeah, Rebirth has a lot of anti-feats (like Superman being overpowered by a steamroller), but a lot of people when arguing for them like to exclusively use high-ends, lol.
If he tries what you're saying, he's going to run straight towards the Combine and get one-shotted by Lord Ennui's entropy field seeing as how he'd be near them at the start, lol.Practically all of the Combine aren't glass cannons, so idk what kind of AP you think Rebirth Flash is packing here.
The underlined part is something that also occurred to me. I could see him running and then getting knocked out by the barrier since it's practically invisible. And I'd also say that the number of members Dead can conjure is practically enormous since, according to Wanda, one million souls were accessible to his power. So I would agree that he has more than enough souls to attack all of them simultaneously. I think this battle mostly depends on him and Ennui.
And that's not even accounting for the one that could also just absorb the JLA into the pocket dimension, and let her minions tire them.
If they’re reasonably powered like when they fought the Avengers then I’d think the Combine would win. I don’t think they have an answer to Lord Ennui’s powers or the Dead’s illusions. I think the remaining members can at least hold the rest of the League off.
What are lord ennul's powers and Diana's lasso can undo and see through illusions far more powerful.
If he tries what you're saying, he's going to run straight towards the Combine and get one-shotted by Lord Ennui's entropy field seeing as how he'd be near them at the start, lol.Practically all of the Combine aren't glass cannons, so idk what kind of AP you think Rebirth Flash is packing here.
The underlined part is something that also occurred to me. I could see him running and then getting knocked out by the barrier since it's practically invisible. And I'd also say that the number of members Dead can conjure is practically enormous since, according to Wanda, one million souls were accessible to his power. So I would agree that he has more than enough souls to attack all of them simultaneously. I think this battle mostly depends on him and Ennui.
And that's not even accounting for the one that could also just absorb the JLA into the pocket dimension, and let her minions tire them.
I forgot about the comment of one million souls, that's a good point. I think Idol is a threat as well since she has AP/AoE that could have potentially killed Cosmic King Thor over time. World Forger may be the weakest link but he still proved to have a lot of crowd control in addition to the armies thanks to his TK.
If they’re reasonably powered like when they fought the Avengers then I’d think the Combine would win. I don’t think they have an answer to Lord Ennui’s powers or the Dead’s illusions. I think the remaining members can at least hold the rest of the League off.
What are lord ennul's powers and Diana's lasso can undo and see through illusions far more powerful.
Lord Ennui has an entropy field surrounding him that instantly withdraws the energy from any object that enters it. It's explained/demonstrated pretty well below:
@wastelandman: ok, that's a cool power but aquaman's TP should be able to affect him or cyborg boom tubing him away.
One member's TP was overwhelming Wanda so I'm doubtful Aquaman would do any better.
I don't think Viktor would be interested in BFR when he's bloodlusted. Also, as soon as the fight starts there's going to be two massive armies summoned and and bunch of city-level environmental manipulation, how would he BFR before he gets attacked? And is there even an instance of Viktor instantly BFRing an army like that?
I forgot about the comment of one million souls, that's a good point. I think Idol is a threat as well since she has AP/AoE that could have potentially killed Cosmic King Thor over time. World Forger may be the weakest link but he still proved to have a lot of crowd control in addition to the armies thanks to his TK.
Jed actually based the location on Rockwood Cemetery in Australia. Hence, the one million graves. And yea, I forgot about Idol, but speaking of her, Idol's control could have progressively projected itself on a geometric level over time, so the more time elapses, the stronger they keep getting with worshippers.
@wastelandman: ok, that's a cool power but aquaman's TP should be able to affect him or cyborg boom tubing him away.
One member's TP was overwhelming Wanda so I'm doubtful Aquaman would do any better.
I don't think Viktor would be interested in BFR when he's bloodlusted. Also, as soon as the fight starts there's going to be two massive armies summoned and and bunch of city-level environmental manipulation, how would he BFR before he gets attacked? And is there even an instance of Viktor instantly BFRing an army like that?
> Overwhelming? Wanda wasn't overwhelmed, she handled it well-- she didn't even fall for the illusions even though she was fighting a city of dead soldiers. I'll even post the scans.
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And lord Ennui doesn't have TP so how is he going to block Arthur? Why do you even think that Wanda has better TP defenses that the JLA, I would say that she doesn't even have better defenses than Diana much less Arthur.
> Why would victor suddenly want to not use his teleportation? Fighting an army isn't a new thing to the JLA, Diana just recently fought an army while holding back, you're also forgetting that the JLA hve post crisis and new52 which makes this a stomp, Lor Ennui is the only threat here and he isn't immune to hax or BFR. Heat Vision, MFTL speeds, phasing, Telepathy, atom splitting sword that can ignore durability, hydrokinesis and weather manipulation from aqauman, giant constructs that can hold back the army. Those armies have nothing on flash speed + phasing, supes HV and speed, diana's fires of hestia has one shot and burn black lanterns and many more attacks. Please tell me how they don't get stomped?
In a bloodlusted state, I'm sure Victor's first priority is to focus on creating protection and not immediately attacking.
So are you arguing that because of the blood-lust condition everyone in the match, including the AC, is opting to no protect themselves? I disagree that blood-lust equals making tactical decisions that poorly but it does work both ways making the AC easier targets given the massive speed advantage the DC characters have.
More like they need resistance against TP better than Wanda's who has insane resistance in that regard. She's dropped planetary telepaths in weaker versions and in recent years defeated characters with casual planetary feats while they're insanely amped. I *highly* doubt Victor, or most of the JL, has resistance against magic TP on the level that Wanda does.
Meanwhile in the real world...
Just kidding a little and Wanda does have psychic defenses but she often gets TP'd facing X-men. Give those planetary telepath feats and I'll look at them.
You can *highly* doubt anything you want though because Wonder Woman and Cyborg both resisted Braniac's telepathy when he had harnessed enough minds to casually dominate the earth and was on the verge of being able alter reality on a universal scale with that telepathic power. Martian Manhunter was also capable of resisting that level of telepathy.
The Dead's aura is psychic in nature but The Dead doesn't even have city level feats to demonstrate any appreciable power. Their feats are scaring normal people who would run away anyway and failing to overwhelm Wanda. You're scaling them off of second person high ends when you talk about powerful telepaths.
They do harness a million fodder defenseless souls (city level) but city level is nothing for most of these characters as shown for Wonder Woman and Cyborg with the Braniac feat. Aquaman is one of the most powerful telepaths on the planet with feats that should very easily counter that psychic aura if he becomes within it.
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Aquaman heard the Voidsong at the deepest part of the ocean. This psychic attack froze the entire planet including Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter.
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The Celestial Isthmus
The Celestial Isthmus is a realm of pure thought that connect Aquaman more closely to sea life. Aquaman has shown that he has the skill and power to rip Kordax, who has similar power and hundreds of years of experience, into that realm of pure thought and then use that realm to consume Kordax's mind. Kordax has better feats than The Dead.
Aquaman forced Warhead (another powerful telepath) to see visions of the future. Warhead also has better telepathic feats than The Dead. You might want to reverse your stance and ask yourself how the AC deals with a blood-lusted morals off Aquaman's illusions.
I can give much higher feats if you want to go into this more, but this should be enough based on the argument you just gave. I would also point out that because Wanda fairly easily ignored The Dead's aura (she was aware of it but never overwhelmed) it doesn't take her level of resistance; it takes resistance beyond those that The Dead successfully overwhelmed, which was no one, really.
Note that Wanda dropping amped planetary telepaths "in recent years" being taken into consideration is like Superman walking through the event horizon of a black hole in recent years. It's silly to point to Wanda's high ends while ignoring low ends and the point to JL low ends calling out "anti-feats" (AKA low-balling) while pretending the high ends don't exist.
The point is she struggles greatly with it despite having insane TP resistance. Unless Cyborg has better, he's never going to do be able to do anything at all.
Cyborg has resisted amped Brainiac and Eclipso but we're still back to not everyone is attacking Cyborg and the number of JL members is almost double the number of AC members. We're also at the point where it looks like The Dead is just a low showing for Wanda based on the defense level you claim and the feats The Undead has that are nowhere near that level.
At no point does her fight show she's "struggling greatly". We only see her acknowledging what's happening and the hits The Dead with a BFR.
This isn't a 1v1, it's a team fight, and two characters can generate armies instantly and endlessly, so the better question would be why wouldn't these armies or visions target everyone indiscriminately, including Victor, when the entire team is in the same area? lol.
"Endlessly" is NLF. They were survivors from other planets existing withing tesseract space. Just because the limit is unknown doesn't mean it's endless. Either GL can seal the opening with their rings to prevent opponents from coming out. Cyborg can use a forcefield to seal the opening preventing opponents from coming out.
Superman is strong and durable enough to super speed in and hold it shut. Or he could super speed give a toss towards Ennui and let Ennui's entropy aura do the trick instead. So could Wonder Woman. So could the Flash via IMP.
Most of the AC can be dealt with just by throwing them and Ennui. Cyborg's sensor will see the auras. Then BFR Ennui.
The visions are indiscriminately affecting the AC. Several JL members have appropriate resistance so that argument hurts the AC more than the JL.
With what? It could be easily countered by any of the Combine for all I know, you make no reference to what Victor is doing or why he'd do it faster than anyone else can react.
Victor does it before anyone else can react because he operates in nanoseconds and see light energy move in slow motion. It's one of his stated hax that's effective been used to disable Superman, Aquaman, and Starfire. He doesn't use it normally because it's dangerous.
His speed is a bit odd because it's perception and energy transmission that's fast but his movements don't match that. We've seen him interrupt and counter Captain Atom's quantum blast midstream before they hit anything, as an example.
Cyborg has had the ability to connect to any tech in the multiverse since his motherbox updated his tech with the multiversal engine. He can use that for data and for configuring his technology and replicate technology. For example, when he wanted to speak psychically with Raven he created psychic receptors for himself. Cyborg can be ridiculously powerful when he's not restraining himself.
Here's some boom tube stuff for him since I started with a BFR point.
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Cyborg is a mass teleporter, capable of creating hundreds of boom tubes at a time. This can be used on allies, or on opponents against their will.
After Cyborg's multiversal engine initialization he was capable of taking people directly into hypertime.
Cyborg needs to be careful not to accidentally destroy planets when he really starts using big boom tubes. In this example he's mass vacuuming an army. Numbers don't stop the boom tube strategy and he's easily well beyond planet level going into those feats.
Cyborg also needed to be careful with this scan that indicates he can knock the planets of the solar system out of alignment with the continent sized boom tube he created.
I can also add more for boom tubes if you want to get more into that discussion. Boom tubes manipulate time, space, and gravity.
He's also capable of absorbing matter and energy directly into his body or high end regeneration to the point he can regenerate a new body from almost nothing.
If he tries what you're saying, he's going to run straight towards the Combine and get one-shotted by Lord Ennui's entropy field seeing as how he'd be near them at the start, lol. Practically all of the Combine aren't glass cannons, so idk what kind of AP you think Rebirth Flash is packing here.
The issue with the entropy aura is that all kinetic energy in the multiverse is a manifestation of the speed force. Ennui's aura isn't likely to drain all that speed force energy in the time it takes Flash to close with an infinite mass punch or phase attack. Flash has a fairly recent high end where he was punching Anti-Monitor through realities and was capable of maintaining that for a bit before Anti-Monitor could fight back.
Flash also doesn't need to close to build a wind vortex. Ennui hasn't be destroying in.
I *highly* doubt Rebirth Aquaman has anywhere close to as good TP showings as Wanda.
Aquaman accomplished a feat similar to Ego when Arthur was cut off from his powers and his trident was drained. Echoes of his power and a drained trident was able to accomplish a feat that scales to Ego. Like I said, we can go farther into Arthur's high ends.
Two characters in the Combine can literally spawn an endless army (one of which was overwhelming Vision and the other the Scarlet Witch, two characters who are either stronger than most or all of the JL individually), so I love that you think you can bring numbers up here, lol
I love that you think your opinion is a fact, lol. I disagree that either of them is stronger than most or all of the JL individually.
When Aquaman needed an army against Orm he telepathically summoned beasts, heroes, and gods who all arrived in seconds. It's not like Arthur hasn't demonstrated billions to trillions of summons or that he hasn't summoned creatures who don't require to be in the water.
This battlefield favors the AC instead of Aquaman but he still has options when it comes to summons.
Cyborg is also capable of generating drones at will. We've seen these drones create force fields, illusions, and energy blasts. Victor can use them as AI backup for himself and they can operate independently from him.
The JL can prevent those "endless summons" fodder (they are obviously not endless) as described or easily eliminate them. The AC hasn't show the ability to prevent Aquaman from summoning B0 clones or microscopic organisms or suitable critters from the surroundings (or the lost gods). They haven't shown they can prevent Cyborg from morphing countless drones for support even if he doesn't have much local tech outside of himself to use.
Aquaman probably isn't summoning in this environment under these conditions, tbf, unless he gets desperate but Cyborg creating independent AI drones can maintain the numbers advantage in the event Meridian cannot be easily contained by either GL in a force bubble as an easy counter.
You've demonstrated none of these things for anyone, you're just declaring that it's the case. And what hax have you even brought up? The ability to create a portal? lol
Scans are now available for you to look through. What scans have you provided for your feats? The AC is practically featless and you appear to be relying on 3rd person scaling to high ends while dismissing JL feats because you either don't know the feats or might be ignoring them.
Yeah, I'm sure none of the hundreds and thousands of armies will even notice Cyborg.
They don't exist in this battle. I've shown how they can be dealt with.
I'd love to see feats Rebirth Cyborg instantly BFRing thousands of people too in combat before they react, btw. Also, bloodlusted means he's going for the kill, so even if BFR is a win condition, that's not what's going to do here.
I'd love to see the feat where this army of thousands suddenly appeared before the JL could react. Where're your speed feats? I did show that a blood-lusted Cyborg could easily destroy the who planet and everyone on it, however.
Also, blood-lusted means Meridian is going for the kill and not wasting time summoning such an army. That argument still works both ways if you are going to make it.
True, and Ennui even compares the power Binary was outputting to that of a star
That's not going to protect Ennui from from a telepathic or magical attack, or from the BFR argument. I'll also add a star comparison for you.
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These aliens eat kinetic energy and using Atom's white dwarf powered belt Aquaman and Flash hit it with enough energy to ignite a sun and the alien absorbed it then redirected it. Arthur and Barry punched it with enough kinetic energy in there punches to kill it scaling that feat above the belt attempt.
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Here's Aquaman shattering an impenetrable barrier.
Here's an expression of what's going to happen to the planet. Complete loss of energy.
Flash was capable of drawing enough speed force to overwhelm one of those aliens and blow it's hull armor (which withstood the force of every current on Earth) wide open.
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That's Aquaman using his trident to annihilate a larger alien. Again, they eat kinetic energy beyond igniting a sun.
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Arthur and Barry generated and manipulaed enough energy from the stored up speed force the planet had eaten that they were able to free the people controlled, amp them to fight the opponents and fight the aliens, and destroy countless ships including the giant mothership.
Given that one of them was above the energy to ignite the sun several of them should be multi-star level. Looks like a better feat than Captain Marvel's based on references. Also, Barry is a scientist and a reliable source on the amount of power he's stating. Ennui has no cred to make the claim that Captain Marvel was generating that much power so Barry's statement is a more reliable statement on top of being the better set of feats.
And yeah, Rebirth has a lot of anti-feats (like Superman being overpowered by a steamroller), but a lot of people when arguing for them like to exclusively use high-ends, lol.
You're using high ends, lol.
That's Hawkeye, one of the best aims in Marvel, missing his target from a few feat away. There are gems like Hercules, one of the strongest characters, trying to destroy a mountain by breaking off small rocks at a time or Sych channeling Jean's TP and failing to affect fodder civilians because of their emotional state or Thing getting sent flying by the force of a slow-moving car.
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That's Hulk struggling and losing to a small wave Poseidon created.
When you say "anti-feat" all you're really trying to do is low-ball under another name to try and hide that it's low-balling. Marvel characters also have of anti-feats.
Poseidon said that Arthur can erase ppl (even gods) from existence with his trident among other things. Flash was IMP'ing Anti-Monitor throught different realities. The JL has much better feats than you seem to think when you bring up things like Wanda's TP or Vision's strength. ;-)
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