All versions of the Beyonder against each other!

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owie

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#1  Edited By owie  Moderator

All the versions of the Beyonder battle each other. What order do they come in?

I'm going to intentionally split some hairs here when it comes to what it means to be a "version" of the Beyonder. You might argue that some of them are not really different incarnations. But I think they were at the very least all treated somewhat differently, and have different levels of feats. For instance, I think the Secret Wars I and II versions have somewhat different levels of feats, even though we normally treat them as the same incarnation. I don't want people calling spite on account of Secret Wars II Beyonder being in here--the point isn't just to see who wins, but what order all the others come in.

They combatants are:

--Pre-retcon Secret Wars I Beyonder

--Pre-retcon Secret Wars II Beyonder

--Post-Retcon Beyonder (symbolized here by his appearance post-Secret Wars II, before merging into the Cube with Reece. Technically we could include Post-retcon Secret Wars I Beyonder, Post-retcon Secret Wars II Beyonder, and Post-retcon Pre-Cube Beyonder as entirely separate combatants, but I decided to simplify things somewhat. You can consider all feats from Secret Wars I and II, as well as FF #319, as those feats are to be understood through the perspective of the Cosmic Cube retcon, for this combatant.)

--Kosmos

--Kosmos-Beyonder (the retro-looking Beyonder that Reece pulled out of Kosmos)

--The Maker

--Mutant Inhuman Beyonder (I think it's best if we limit him to his Illuminati appearance, since its very arguable what his retcon means in relation to the Beyonder's feats in Secret Wars I and II, but if you really want to use the SW I and II appearances, through the perspective of this retcon, you can)

You can judge them on their feats as well as their putative place in the cosmic hierarchy.

Pre-retcon Secret Wars I Beyonder
Pre-retcon Secret Wars I Beyonder
Pre-retcon Secret Wars II Beyonder
Pre-retcon Secret Wars II Beyonder
Post-retcon Beyonder
Post-retcon Beyonder
Kosmos
Kosmos
Kosmos/retro Beyonder
Kosmos/retro Beyonder
The Maker
The Maker
Mutant Inhuman Beyonder
Mutant Inhuman Beyonder
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#2  Edited By jeanroygrant

Pre Recton Beyonder

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#3  Edited By owie  Moderator

@jeanroygrant said:

Pre Recton Beyonder

But what order do all the others come in? That's what I'm really looking for.

Also, we're matching up the performance of pre-retcon Beyonder as seen in Secret Wars I against the performance of pre-retcon Beyonder as seen in Secret Wars II. I'd argue personally, for instance, that pre-retcon Secret Wars I Beyonder was shown to be somewhat less capable than pre-retcon Secret Wars II Beyonder---SWII Beyonder wouldn't be able to be beaten by Doom's tech.

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#4  Edited By Killemall

@jeanroygrant said:

Pre Recton Beyonder

Well by PR Beyonder if you mean secret war 2 version rather than secret war 1 version than i am with you :).

@Owie: This is how i feel the hierarchy should be:

  1. Secret War 2 Beyonder
  2. Secret War 1 Beyonder
  3. Post Retconned Beyonder that faught and lost against him.
  4. And all other beyonder that barely have any feat to match anyone of the above :)
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#5  Edited By owie  Moderator

OK, here's how I see it:

1. Pre-retcon Secret Wars II Beyonder. He has the best battle feats, taking on the Celestials, the Molecule Man, and scaring off all the other cosmic entities, as well as being capable of erasing the entirety of existence. He did have a few moments of weakness, saying that he was vulnerable to Dr. Strange, Rachel's Phoenix, and the assembled heroes with the Molecule Man, as well as the Beyondersbane weapon. But overall he was essentially unbeatable in practice. He was mentally unstable, but he was able to keep his head in a fight.

2. Pre-retcon Secret Wars I Beyonder. He erased a galaxy and assembled a planet from parts. He easily rebuffed Galactus in the first issue, and was beating Doom with Galactus' power later on, before losing his power due to Doom's use of his technology, something I would argue just wasn't possible for SWII Beyonder. We didn't see him do too much with his power beyond that in a direct fashion, but we did get to see Doom use his power, and from Doom's own claims can assume that SWI Beyonder was more powerful than anyone else in existence. However, due to his naivete and inexperience, he was capable of being beaten by guile and technology. He also took quite some time to defeat the Galactus-powered Doom when he attacked the Beyonder in his own realm, which is something that SWII Beyonder could do in an instant.

3. Kosmos "retro" version of the Beyonder: This is a version that looks like the old Beyonder; Reece pulls his essence out of Kosmos some time after the Cosmic Cube retcon. He only has feats from one issue, but strangely he was now less powerful than Owen Reece. This is chalked up due to Reece's extra recent practice, and from the fact that Reece is human, and thus has more "potential" than a "mere" abstract entity. Either way, their battle has physical ramifications throughout time, space, and other dimensions, indicating that between the two of them they have multiversal-level power. This version also seems somewhat delusional, and unaware of the Cosmic Cube retcon, as he talks about being the supreme being in the universe, which is patently untrue according to the Cosmic Cube retcon. So in this battle, his mental state might retard his success more than as his raw power suggests. His power seems somehow more than what the normal Kosmos, or the other Cubes, normally seem capable of.

3. Kosmos. Although we haven't seen too much in the way of feats from Kosmos, just by assuming that she was as powerful as the other sentient Cosmic Cubes like Shaper and Kubik makes it logical that she would be pretty powerful. We can also assume that she should be more powerful than Post-retcon Beyonder from SWI and SWII, since he was in fact just part of a Cosmic Cube, and thus the post-retcon Beyonder should theoretically have only, say, two-thirds of her power. According to Kubik, he is less powerful than the Celestials, so Kosmos should be too. This puts her far below either 1 or 2 above, but it is possible that she is above 3. However, she didn't have any multiverse-level feats like the retro-Beyonder (#3) did.

4. Post-retcon (Cosmic Cube-powered) Beyonder: This is the Beyonder that we saw in SWI and SWII, but many (we don't know exactly which, however) of his feats were actually illusions created by the other cosmic entities. He was, in essence, only part of a sentient cosmic cube. Based on the power of other cosmic cubes, he may still have had universal-level power, but was (according to the Molecule Man's description of himself), below Eternity and the Tribunal (which, I would like to point out, are much higher yardsticks than the Celestials used by Kubik to measure his power). The hardest part in evaluating his power level is that we don't specifically know what he really did do, and what was just an illusion. However we do know that when Kubik battled him, they were more or less stalemated. On the other hand, he was powerful enough for his energy to create an entire universe in his Beyond-realm. By definition, he is not as powerful as the above 4 versions.

6. This is where it gets tricky. Mutant Inhuman Beyonder has very few feats, so it is unclear where he falls. He might be #3 on this list, or he might be 4 or 5. He is powerful enough to create a false Manhattan within the asteroid belt, but to a cosmic being this should not be too difficult. It is unclear whether his retconned feats in SWI and SWII are now real, or whether they were still illusions created by the other cosmic entities; it could be either way. (My own guess is that this whole story is going to be written off as an illusion some day.) Once again he's nuts, and I just find his feats to be generally sub-universal. Anyway, I'm sticking him here at #6. I know some others believe he is back up around 3.

7. The Maker. This is a further-evolved version of Kosmos, and the most in-universe chronologically recent. Once again, she is very unstable mentally. She is so vulnerable they are able to keep her prisoner in the Kyln, and she is defeated and put in a coma by an attack by Thanos (without any Infinity Gems or whatnot). She eventually dies when the Kylns are destroyed. This is a fighting and power level that is far below any of the other Beyonders above, even though she ought to have been more developed in power and emotional state than any of them.

So overall, I would put them in this order for a fight not only due to power, but also mental stability. Generally speaking, the less powerful he's been, the less mentally stable he's been too. I think Mutant Inhuman Beyonder is the wildcard, and would be glad to hear any arguments that would put him higher up on this list, using logic and feats.

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@Owie: Can God create a rock he can not lift?

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#7  Edited By owie  Moderator

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Owie: Can God create a rock he can not lift?

Some versions of this god could, and some couldn't.

The question is, which are which?

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