Six people with Cosmic Cubes vs six people with the six Infinity Gems.
The Infinity Gems cannot be combined into the Infinity Gauntlet or use their powers in conjunction with each other in any way. (Nor can the people using the Cosmic Cubes amp each other's powers or anything like that).
The people on each team are all normal people, but they all have extensive knowledge and training on how to use their Cubes/Gems. They will do anything to win. Battle starts on Earth in a spare meeting room in Microsoft headquarters.
Who wins and why?
6 Cosmic Cubes vs 6 Infinity Gems (separated)
Well if these are gems before the retcon the gems should win, why because they have better feat.
- Magus tanked UN blast with power gem.
- and most importantly, during Cosmic Powers Unlimited #1, Thanos was about to use the reality gem to warp entire marvel reality to make Lady Death love him, but later choose not to do it.
@Trolled said:
@Killemall: it is not a nick name, it is a user name.
They are of greater power because they have more power
That is an amazing argument...
xD
Gems....
Reality: out powers the finite reality warpings of the Cubes
Mind: Renders the Cube users useless
Soul: Renders the Cube user useless
Power: Absorbs the Cubes
Space: Brings the Cube to the Space Gem holder
Time: Stops, reverse all the Cube users from having a Cube.
The reality gem part might be true, it might out-power any one cube. As for the others, there's no specific effect there that the cubes can't mimic. They could theoretically just wish the gems and their users away...or at least that wish is just as likely to have an effect as the things you said there. In fact, the cubes have a wider range of powers than the gems, which might give them an advantage. For instance, a cube wielder might attack the space wielder through the powers of time and mind.Gems....
Reality: out powers the finite reality warpings of the Cubes
Mind: Renders the Cube users useless
Soul: Renders the Cube user useless
Power: Absorbs the Cubes
Space: Brings the Cube to the Space Gem holder
Time: Stops, reverse all the Cube users from having a Cube.
@Killemall said:
Well if these are gems before the retcon the gems should win, why because they have better feat.
- Magus tanked UN blast with power gem.
- and most importantly, during Cosmic Powers Unlimited #1, Thanos was about to use the reality gem to warp entire marvel reality to make Lady Death love him, but later choose not to do it.
Questions--I don't know those issues, so I'm just asking--if the Reality Gem itself was enough to warp the entire Marvel reality to that degree, why did he even need the other Gems to get the Infinity Gauntlet's level of power? Being able to warp the entire reality seems good enough already.
Also, being able to tank the Ultimate Nullifier is certainly good. You wouldn't happen to have a scan of that, just curious to see it?
On the other hand, I can make a decent argument on around that level for the cubes. The battle between the post-retcon Molecule Man and the Beyonder (the version he took out of Kosmos) had specific effects on other dimensions, distant times, and across the universe. Since they (in those versions) are both just cosmic cubes--and in fact together are only one cosmic cube--this suggests that they might be able to influence reality to a similar extent.
@Trolled: lol
@Killemall said:
Well if these are gems before the retcon the gems should win, why because they have better feat.
- Magus tanked UN blast with power gem.
- and most importantly, during Cosmic Powers Unlimited #1, Thanos was about to use the reality gem to warp entire marvel reality to make Lady Death love him, but later choose not to do it.
@Killemall: I think it is pretty clearly shown that the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet the Magus had was still operating far beyond what the gems normally accomplish individually. Drax, Thor, and Champion have had the Power Gem at one point, and they could not accomplish anything close to that.
All Thanos actually did in that issue was resurrect Captain Marvel. He was considering attempting to use it to make Death Love him, but as Captain Marvel pointed out, the reason he "tested" it on CM first, was to subconsciously convince himself that it was a terrible idea. In other instances, it has been hinted that using the Reality Gem is an incredibly dangerous and uncontrollable task, and that the main reason it had been given to Thanos in the first place was because he would know better than to use it. With his full concentration he brought back CM with no real consequences, but Thanos is has one of the greatest intellects and wills in Marvel Comics; I'm doubtful an ordinary person would be able to control the Reality Gem to any great degree.
I'll also point out that during Infinity Crusade, the Goddess was in a perfect position to take the Reality Gem and use it to her ends. Instead, she opted to use the Cosmic Egg. I feel the only sensible reason for her to not use both is because the Reality Gem is too unstable to reliably control, at least to any great extent. And if one of Warlock's crazy zealous personas doesn't think they can handle something, it's a safe bet it shouldn't be messed with.
Other than that, the individual Gems tend to have pretty narrow range of powers, and even the degree of their power seemed quite limited in the hands of the Infinity Watch. On the other hand, the Cosmic Cube Thanos used was basically like a downgraded Infinity Gauntlet; it could still reality warp and cause all kinds of effect. It also easily imprisoned Kronos. When Dr. Doom had the Cube, he defeated Galactus. I haven't read the old Captain America arc with Redskull yet, but my understanding is he rewrote time to some extent with it.
I think the Cubes would take this. They have a much greater scope of abilities than the individual gems (save possibly the Reality Gem, which I think would either do nothing, or run amok endangering both sides), and their overall performance just seems much more potent and impressive than what the individual gems have normally shown. An exception might be the Soul Gem, since I think Cosmic Cubes can't affect souls, but they don't really need to in order to win this kind of a fight.
@Owie said:
Questions--I don't know those issues, so I'm just asking--if the Reality Gem itself was enough to warp the entire Marvel reality to that degree, why did he even need the other Gems to get the Infinity Gauntlet's level of power? Being able to warp the entire reality seems good enough already.
No worries i understand. While Reality Gem give you the ability to warp reality it only makes you as powerful as say Mad James Jasper, or Franklin Richards. Remember with only reality gem someone with superspeed can always KO you before you could think, someone like Kosmos or Cronos(he actually tried that to thanos with IG) could always dump you into past, someone like Prof X could always mindrape you. These limitations are overcome by having the remaining gems, power gem gives you unlimited durability which means no one can actually speedblitz you because you cant be hurt. Time gem lets you control time, so no one can dump you in the past, mindgem gives you ability to read and control mind so people like Prof. X cant actually mindrape you.
The instance i am referring to is from Cosmic Power Unlimited 1, would you like to see scans? I certainly could post it.
. Also, being able to tank the Ultimate Nullifier is certainly good. You wouldn't happen to have a scan of that, just curious to see it? On the other hand, I can make a decent argument on around that level for the cubes. The battle between the post-retcon Molecule Man and the Beyonder (the version he took out of Kosmos) had specific effects on other dimensions, distant times, and across the universe. Since they (in those versions) are both just cosmic cubes--and in fact together are only one cosmic cube--this suggests that they might be able to influence reality to a similar extent.
The scan is very small, i had to look through respect thread to find it, i am still posting the link. Hard to read though, apology.
Quasar firing UN at magus
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/2843/igvsun2pi1.th.jpg
Magus tanking it
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8928/igvsun3sw2.th.jpg
Well the destruction was a side effect of the battle, and you have to admit neither molecule man nor beyonder are stand cosmic cube entity, they are much more powerful than a normal cosmic cube. We have various limitation with cosmic cube, it runs out of juice, it was unable to even KO thanos in Thanos Imperative etc. Also there feats are lackluster compared to infinity gem, we have Adam warlock juggling and rearranging an entire solar system to show Dr. Strange the true potential of power gem, havent seen cosmic cube do such a thing.
@Freefa11 said:
@Killemall: I think it is pretty clearly shown that the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet the Magus had was still operating far beyond what the gems normally accomplish individually. Drax, Thor, and Champion have had the Power Gem at one point, and they could not accomplish anything close to that.
All Thanos actually did in that issue was resurrect Captain Marvel. He was considering attempting to use it to make Death Love him, but as Captain Marvel pointed out, the reason he "tested" it on CM first, was to subconsciously convince himself that it was a terrible idea. In other instances, it has been hinted that using the Reality Gem is an incredibly dangerous and uncontrollable task, and that the main reason it had been given to Thanos in the first place was because he would know better than to use it. With his full concentration he brought back CM with no real consequences, but Thanos is has one of the greatest intellects and wills in Marvel Comics; I'm doubtful an ordinary person would be able to control the Reality Gem to any great degree.
I'll also point out that during Infinity Crusade, the Goddess was in a perfect position to take the Reality Gem and use it to her ends. Instead, she opted to use the Cosmic Egg. I feel the only sensible reason for her to not use both is because the Reality Gem is too unstable to reliably control, at least to any great extent. And if one of Warlock's crazy zealous personas doesn't think they can handle something, it's a safe bet it shouldn't be messed with.
Other than that, the individual Gems tend to have pretty narrow range of powers, and even the degree of their power seemed quite limited in the hands of the Infinity Watch. On the other hand, the Cosmic Cube Thanos used was basically like a downgraded Infinity Gauntlet; it could still reality warp and cause all kinds of effect. It also easily imprisoned Kronos. When Dr. Doom had the Cube, he defeated Galactus. I haven't read the old Captain America arc with Redskull yet, but my understanding is he rewrote time to some extent with it.
I think the Cubes would take this. They have a much greater scope of abilities than the individual gems (save possibly the Reality Gem, which I think would either do nothing, or run amok endangering both sides), and their overall performance just seems much more potent and impressive than what the individual gems have normally shown. An exception might be the Soul Gem, since I think Cosmic Cubes can't affect souls, but they don't really need to in order to win this kind of a fight.
As always you make very good points but i do not necessarily agree with this, perhaps because we might have different ways we are looking at it.
When you say Magus with incomplete IG (he was only missing reality gem, but then thats the most potent gem anyways) was operating far beyond what normal gems to, i dont necessarily agree. While Warlock was trying to show powers of individual gems we know he was able to juggle planet and rearrange solar system, and even asked Strange to hit him with his best magic attack, mind you this was classic strange and he simply laughed off his attack and Strange was specifically calling upon Oshtur's powers, who being a Vishanti i would assume was very powerful.
Also when we are talking about gems vs cubes i would assume one using the gem knows how to use it. We know apart from Reality Gem, Adam warlock looked more competent with IG so i would assume anyone who know how to use it would be able to use it in similar fashion. Also thanos thing i did address, while he never actually used the gem it was pretty clear from the conversation that he knew he could do so, that is why he called upon Mar Vell back to life, after Thanos was banned from death's realm, and later did not sure it. Out of context, i really like how Mar Vell says "the reason you were trusted with reality gem was, in the end you are smart enough not to actually use it".
Used to full potential they dont really have narrow scope its just because they arent used to full potential , and now thanks to Hickman they have been downgraded. Lets look at power gem, it gives you infinite strength , infinity durability and lets you call upon any superpowers in the universe, thats not narrow, thats as wide as it can get. Reality gem, before retconned, was stated to have unbridle reality warping potential, which we both agree. Time gem gives you absolute control over time, so if you actually have a fight with a user with a cosmic cube you can always stop time and take the cube away, or you can always de-age the person you are fighting to a child where he no longer knows what he is doing, or age him to death. A complete mastery of time is a very interesting power, make you virtually unbetable. You can dump people willy-nilly into past and future.
Beating Galactus isnt comparable when we are talking about gems that can wrap entire marvel universe or let you have any powers you want, what stopping the person weilding power gem to gain access of Eternity's power because eternity is the part of the universe (LT however isnt) and with Eternity's power one should be able to be pawn a fully fed galactus, time gem would be able to age galactus so that he starves of death, mind -gem can mind-rape galactus and reality gem would give you the power to warp galactus out of reality (and when abraxas comes you could always do the same to him).
Redskull did change the time line but it was Marvel earth's time line history that was change, i dont think that was universal in nature, while we have evidence to believe reality gem could potential wrap entire reality.
I still think, if used properly infinity gems are more potent, makes sense because IG was pretty much used to make thanos more omnipotent that what we was while he had the cosmic cube. Also cosmic cube has a major limitation, after big use it runs out of juice, gems have no such limitations.
Many good points. As always, part of the issue with cosmic stuff is that things get revamped quite a bit over time. I'd say for instance that the cosmic cubes were probably considered to be more upper-echelon back in the 70s/80s, then were downgraded a bit in the Infinity Crusade when the Goddess had so many of them (that's my impression anyway, I haven't got my hands on all the issues of that yet). Whereas the Infinity gems were upgraded (consider what they do now vs. what they were when the Elders had them originally).@Owie said:
Questions--I don't know those issues, so I'm just asking--if the Reality Gem itself was enough to warp the entire Marvel reality to that degree, why did he even need the other Gems to get the Infinity Gauntlet's level of power? Being able to warp the entire reality seems good enough already.No worries i understand. While Reality Gem give you the ability to warp reality it only makes you as powerful as say Mad James Jasper, or Franklin Richards. Remember with only reality gem someone with superspeed can always KO you before you could think, someone like Kosmos or Cronos(he actually tried that to thanos with IG) could always dump you into past, someone like Prof X could always mindrape you. These limitations are overcome by having the remaining gems, power gem gives you unlimited durability which means no one can actually speedblitz you because you cant be hurt. Time gem lets you control time, so no one can dump you in the past, mindgem gives you ability to read and control mind so people like Prof. X cant actually mindrape you.
The instance i am referring to is from Cosmic Power Unlimited 1, would you like to see scans? I certainly could post it.
. Also, being able to tank the Ultimate Nullifier is certainly good. You wouldn't happen to have a scan of that, just curious to see it? On the other hand, I can make a decent argument on around that level for the cubes. The battle between the post-retcon Molecule Man and the Beyonder (the version he took out of Kosmos) had specific effects on other dimensions, distant times, and across the universe. Since they (in those versions) are both just cosmic cubes--and in fact together are only one cosmic cube--this suggests that they might be able to influence reality to a similar extent.The scan is very small, i had to look through respect thread to find it, i am still posting the link. Hard to read though, apology.
Quasar firing UN at magus
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/2843/igvsun2pi1.th.jpg
Magus tanking it
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8928/igvsun3sw2.th.jpg
Well the destruction was a side effect of the battle, and you have to admit neither molecule man nor beyonder are stand cosmic cube entity, they are much more powerful than a normal cosmic cube. We have various limitation with cosmic cube, it runs out of juice, it was unable to even KO thanos in Thanos Imperative etc. Also there feats are lackluster compared to infinity gem, we have Adam warlock juggling and rearranging an entire solar system to show Dr. Strange the true potential of power gem, havent seen cosmic cube do such a thing.
@Freefa11 said:
@Killemall: I think it is pretty clearly shown that the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet the Magus had was still operating far beyond what the gems normally accomplish individually. Drax, Thor, and Champion have had the Power Gem at one point, and they could not accomplish anything close to that.
All Thanos actually did in that issue was resurrect Captain Marvel. He was considering attempting to use it to make Death Love him, but as Captain Marvel pointed out, the reason he "tested" it on CM first, was to subconsciously convince himself that it was a terrible idea. In other instances, it has been hinted that using the Reality Gem is an incredibly dangerous and uncontrollable task, and that the main reason it had been given to Thanos in the first place was because he would know better than to use it. With his full concentration he brought back CM with no real consequences, but Thanos is has one of the greatest intellects and wills in Marvel Comics; I'm doubtful an ordinary person would be able to control the Reality Gem to any great degree.
I'll also point out that during Infinity Crusade, the Goddess was in a perfect position to take the Reality Gem and use it to her ends. Instead, she opted to use the Cosmic Egg. I feel the only sensible reason for her to not use both is because the Reality Gem is too unstable to reliably control, at least to any great extent. And if one of Warlock's crazy zealous personas doesn't think they can handle something, it's a safe bet it shouldn't be messed with.
Other than that, the individual Gems tend to have pretty narrow range of powers, and even the degree of their power seemed quite limited in the hands of the Infinity Watch. On the other hand, the Cosmic Cube Thanos used was basically like a downgraded Infinity Gauntlet; it could still reality warp and cause all kinds of effect. It also easily imprisoned Kronos. When Dr. Doom had the Cube, he defeated Galactus. I haven't read the old Captain America arc with Redskull yet, but my understanding is he rewrote time to some extent with it.
I think the Cubes would take this. They have a much greater scope of abilities than the individual gems (save possibly the Reality Gem, which I think would either do nothing, or run amok endangering both sides), and their overall performance just seems much more potent and impressive than what the individual gems have normally shown. An exception might be the Soul Gem, since I think Cosmic Cubes can't affect souls, but they don't really need to in order to win this kind of a fight.
As always you make very good points but i do not necessarily agree with this, perhaps because we might have different ways we are looking at it.
When you say Magus with incomplete IG (he was only missing reality gem, but then thats the most potent gem anyways) was operating far beyond what normal gems to, i dont necessarily agree. While Warlock was trying to show powers of individual gems we know he was able to juggle planet and rearrange solar system, and even asked Strange to hit him with his best magic attack, mind you this was classic strange and he simply laughed off his attack and Strange was specifically calling upon Oshtur's powers, who being a Vishanti i would assume was very powerful.
Also when we are talking about gems vs cubes i would assume one using the gem knows how to use it. We know apart from Reality Gem, Adam warlock looked more competent with IG so i would assume anyone who know how to use it would be able to use it in similar fashion. Also thanos thing i did address, while he never actually used the gem it was pretty clear from the conversation that he knew he could do so, that is why he called upon Mar Vell back to life, after Thanos was banned from death's realm, and later did not sure it. Out of context, i really like how Mar Vell says "the reason you were trusted with reality gem was, in the end you are smart enough not to actually use it".
Used to full potential they dont really have narrow scope its just because they arent used to full potential , and now thanks to Hickman they have been downgraded. Lets look at power gem, it gives you infinite strength , infinity durability and lets you call upon any superpowers in the universe, thats not narrow, thats as wide as it can get. Reality gem, before retconned, was stated to have unbridle reality warping potential, which we both agree. Time gem gives you absolute control over time, so if you actually have a fight with a user with a cosmic cube you can always stop time and take the cube away, or you can always de-age the person you are fighting to a child where he no longer knows what he is doing, or age him to death. A complete mastery of time is a very interesting power, make you virtually unbetable. You can dump people willy-nilly into past and future.
Beating Galactus isnt comparable when we are talking about gems that can wrap entire marvel universe or let you have any powers you want, what stopping the person weilding power gem to gain access of Eternity's power because eternity is the part of the universe (LT however isnt) and with Eternity's power one should be able to be pawn a fully fed galactus, time gem would be able to age galactus so that he starves of death, mind -gem can mind-rape galactus and reality gem would give you the power to warp galactus out of reality (and when abraxas comes you could always do the same to him).
Redskull did change the time line but it was Marvel earth's time line history that was change, i dont think that was universal in nature, while we have evidence to believe reality gem could potential wrap entire reality.
I still think, if used properly infinity gems are more potent, makes sense because IG was pretty much used to make thanos more omnipotent that what we was while he had the cosmic cube. Also cosmic cube has a major limitation, after big use it runs out of juice, gems have no such limitations.
I couldn't read the scans but I will see if I can find any other versions. I'm going to have to go back and check through the Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos Imperative (don't remember the cube in there) etc.. So much for my memory.
I would say that the cosmic cube versions of MM and Beyonder are in fact supposed to be at the same basic power level as a normal cosmic cube (as would be Shaper and Kubik).
Thinking about the various Infinity Gems, I was thinking somewhat along the lines of Frefa11, in that when, for instance, Moondragon had the mind gem, or Drax the power gem, or Warlock the Soul gem, they were hardly unbeatable characters. In other words, I would put a normal person with a cosmic cube against any of them with their gems, and I think the cosmic cube person would win. When Thanos had any of the other gems, it seems to me to be another story, they can amp his existing powers and his willpower/ingenuity is on another level than just about anyone.
The reality gem might be different from the other gems in this regard though. It's the one with powers most similar to a cube, and I could buy that its scale of power is greater than that of a cube.
But I think the cubes could mimic all the effects of the other gems, and again, use other powers besides. For instance with the power gem, it doesn't help to be invulnerable if the person with the cube turns you into a potato. The time gem might be an issue, but again I think the cubes can affect time as well. Perhaps not at the same level, so that might be an issue of which user is quicker on the draw and more creative. Basically I think the soul, mind, space, and power gems would lose against a cube, but the reality and maybe time gems could win.
Regarding the thing with Strange and Adam Warlock, I haven't read that issue, but if we're talking 90s? then I wouldn't really call that classic Strange, I'd say classic Strange is more 60s-early 80s. His power level, even starting in his '88 series, wasn't at the level it had been before. I any case, he calls on beings like Ohstur all the time, their power level doesn't necessarily translate into the power level of the spell. If he said it was his best magical attack, then I guess I'd believe that, but I'm just saying that his power at that period wasn't the same as his most powerful period, and whoever he called upon is somewhat irrelevant.
Regarding the last thing about the IG being more powerful than Thanos' cube, I think the gems work more powerfully when together than they would as a sum of their parts--they are in synch with each other and amplify each other's effects--so their power as a whole doesn't necessarily connote their power apart.
@Owie said:
Many good points. As always, part of the issue with cosmic stuff is that things get revamped quite a bit over time. I'd say for instance that the cosmic cubes were probably considered to be more upper-echelon back in the 70s/80s, then were downgraded a bit in the Infinity Crusade when the Goddess had so many of them (that's my impression anyway, I haven't got my hands on all the issues of that yet). Whereas the Infinity gems were upgraded (consider what they do now vs. what they were when the Elders had them originally). I couldn't read the scans but I will see if I can find any other versions. I'm going to have to go back and check through the Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos Imperative (don't remember the cube in there) etc.. So much for my memory. I would say that the cosmic cube versions of MM and Beyonder are in fact supposed to be at the same basic power level as a normal cosmic cube (as would be Shaper and Kubik). Thinking about the various Infinity Gems, I was thinking somewhat along the lines of Frefa11, in that when, for instance, Moondragon had the mind gem, or Drax the power gem, or Warlock the Soul gem, they were hardly unbeatable characters. In other words, I would put a normal person with a cosmic cube against any of them with their gems, and I think the cosmic cube person would win. When Thanos had any of the other gems, it seems to me to be another story, they can amp his existing powers and his willpower/ingenuity is on another level than just about anyone. The reality gem might be different from the other gems in this regard though. It's the one with powers most similar to a cube, and I could buy that its scale of power is greater than that of a cube. But I think the cubes could mimic all the effects of the other gems, and again, use other powers besides. For instance with the power gem, it doesn't help to be invulnerable if the person with the cube turns you into a potato. The time gem might be an issue, but again I think the cubes can affect time as well. Perhaps not at the same level, so that might be an issue of which user is quicker on the draw and more creative. Basically I think the soul, mind, space, and power gems would lose against a cube, but the reality and maybe time gems could win. Regarding the thing with Strange and Adam Warlock, I haven't read that issue, but if we're talking 90s? then I wouldn't really call that classic Strange, I'd say classic Strange is more 60s-early 80s. His power level, even starting in his '88 series, wasn't at the level it had been before. I any case, he calls on beings like Ohstur all the time, their power level doesn't necessarily translate into the power level of the spell. If he said it was his best magical attack, then I guess I'd believe that, but I'm just saying that his power at that period wasn't the same as his most powerful period, and whoever he called upon is somewhat irrelevant. Regarding the last thing about the IG being more powerful than Thanos' cube, I think the gems work more powerfully when together than they would as a sum of their parts--they are in synch with each other and amplify each other's effects--so their power as a whole doesn't necessarily connote their power apart.
Apologies that i couldnt find a better scans, and these scans are not from Infinity Gauntlet saga but rather from when Adam Warlock gets the gauntlet (thats some issue from Infinity Watch, cant remember the exact issue), and Magus one was from when Magus gets the gauntlet i think the issue was Infinity Abyss or something like that with Infinity followed by another word.
Also i dont agree Beyonder , Molecule Man, Shaper of the World, or Kubik would be on the same level as other cosmic cube, because the biggest difference is they are sentinent cosmic cube and they had 2 big advantage over other cosmic cubes:
- Much like Infinity Gems cosmic cubes power fluctuates with how the user uses it, while thanos looked nearly omnipotent with the cube the Goddess in Infinity Crusade didnt, also add to the fact that in recent Thanos Imperative Nova with a fully charge cube couldnt KO Thanos while Kosmos did. Therefore, any limitations imposed by users are effectively nulled out because the cubes themselves are sentinent.
- Another, and more important difference is, other cosmic cubes have to be charged and have limited charge in them. This limitation was neither shown by Beyonder, Molecule Man or Shaper of the World. In terms of Kubik, i have only seen scans of him in comicvine havent read issue with him in it so i cannot comment, but i am fairly certain his powers were not shown to be limited and that he required to be recharged.
When you say 6 cubes vs 6 gem, i was under the impression that people who used gem knew how to use it. Because if you did not know how to use the gem you cant use it to full powers, but its the same story with cubes. There was a huge difference when thanos has the cube, and mind you he had only 1, as compared to what Goddess did when she had what 5/7 cubes, her feats still look lackluster. The only way Thanos lost was because he though he had become one with the cube, so in the end it was his mistake, while Goddess was actually beaten by Thanos and Warlock fighting together despite her having more amount of cubes.
I am glad we agree the full potential of reality gem is shown to be more powerful than cubes, because unlike cubes gems do not need to be recharged and the scope is unlimited.
I dont agree what you said about Power Gem though, power gem gives you the durability of the god and i dont think its only physical durability. Had it been so than Warlock would not have been able to tank magic attack from Dr. Strange (mind you it was the classic Strange) and durability against magic is not the same as physical durability. Also there is the instance of Magus tanking an ultimate nullifier and we know nullifier isnt just a power gun (not like the one Genis Vell had) because it has re-created a damaged marvel multiverse at the end of Abraxas saga, i do own this issue and can post scans if required. So i am not convienced its only physical durability. Also there is the fact that power gem allows you to have access to ANY POWERS in the universe, at least thats the description it was given during Thanos Quest 2 as well as its bio, and i have no reason to believe this to be untrue.
Now with time gem, there is this advantage, we know Cronos (i dont know if its spelled with K) the cosmic embodiment of Time (along side Infinity, i dont know why we have two but well thats that) tried to BFR thanos to the past and it didnt work. So what we have is a concrete proof that if you have time gem time manipulation doesnt work againt you, the same cant be said about cosmic cubes.
In short, although gems have their powers restricted and gems like soul gem and mind gem are not that potent, one on one i think gems have more powers while cubes are more versatile. With the added advantage that gems done need to be recharged, while cubes do, gems dont have limit to what they can do, while cubes do, i am fairly convinced that gems are more powerful.
@Freefa11 said:
@Killemall: I think it is pretty clearly shown that the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet the Magus had was still operating far beyond what the gems normally accomplish individually. Drax, Thor, and Champion have had the Power Gem at one point, and they could not accomplish anything close to that.
All Thanos actually did in that issue was resurrect Captain Marvel. He was considering attempting to use it to make Death Love him, but as Captain Marvel pointed out, the reason he "tested" it on CM first, was to subconsciously convince himself that it was a terrible idea. In other instances, it has been hinted that using the Reality Gem is an incredibly dangerous and uncontrollable task, and that the main reason it had been given to Thanos in the first place was because he would know better than to use it. With his full concentration he brought back CM with no real consequences, but Thanos is has one of the greatest intellects and wills in Marvel Comics; I'm doubtful an ordinary person would be able to control the Reality Gem to any great degree.
I'll also point out that during Infinity Crusade, the Goddess was in a perfect position to take the Reality Gem and use it to her ends. Instead, she opted to use the Cosmic Egg. I feel the only sensible reason for her to not use both is because the Reality Gem is too unstable to reliably control, at least to any great extent. And if one of Warlock's crazy zealous personas doesn't think they can handle something, it's a safe bet it shouldn't be messed with.
Other than that, the individual Gems tend to have pretty narrow range of powers, and even the degree of their power seemed quite limited in the hands of the Infinity Watch. On the other hand, the Cosmic Cube Thanos used was basically like a downgraded Infinity Gauntlet; it could still reality warp and cause all kinds of effect. It also easily imprisoned Kronos. When Dr. Doom had the Cube, he defeated Galactus. I haven't read the old Captain America arc with Redskull yet, but my understanding is he rewrote time to some extent with it.
I think the Cubes would take this. They have a much greater scope of abilities than the individual gems (save possibly the Reality Gem, which I think would either do nothing, or run amok endangering both sides), and their overall performance just seems much more potent and impressive than what the individual gems have normally shown. An exception might be the Soul Gem, since I think Cosmic Cubes can't affect souls, but they don't really need to in order to win this kind of a fight.
I have to comment on this and what @Owie: said in regards to the Infinity Watch. You're both forgetting that when Adam Warlock selected the Inifinity Watch he selected people who wouldn't have full access to the powers of the Infinity Gems. Moondragon for instance had such vast psychic abilities that she never really actively used the Mind Gem because she didn't need it. Drax was too simple minded to access anything more then an increase in strength and durability. Pip had a simple mind and only focused on running away and never thought to use the Space gem for anything but that. Gamora was a fighter and existed in the here and now and in the physical so had no practical use in her mind for the time gem. Thanos was... as pointed out.. smart enough to know the risks of the Reality gem and not use. And Warlock? Warlock had the Soul Gem forever and knew what he was doing with it. So the Infinity Watch's lack of skill with the gems were intended and not a reflection of a lack of ability on the gems part.
@Killemall:
Apologies that i couldnt find a better scans, and these scans are not from Infinity Gauntlet saga but rather from when Adam Warlock gets the gauntlet (thats some issue from Infinity Watch, cant remember the exact issue), and Magus one was from when Magus gets the gauntlet i think the issue was Infinity Abyss or something like that with Infinity followed by another word.
No problem. Thanks for the details. (When I said I was going to have to go back and read Infinity Gauntlet I just meant in general and not for these scans in particular.)
Also i dont agree Beyonder , Molecule Man, Shaper of the World, or Kubik would be on the same level as other cosmic cube, because the biggest difference is they are sentinent cosmic cube and they had 2 big advantage over other cosmic cubes:
- Much like Infinity Gems cosmic cubes power fluctuates with how the user uses it, while thanos looked nearly omnipotent with the cube the Goddess in Infinity Crusade didnt, also add to the fact that in recent Thanos Imperative Nova with a fully charge cube couldnt KO Thanos while Kosmos did. Therefore, any limitations imposed by users are effectively nulled out because the cubes themselves are sentinent.
- Another, and more important difference is, other cosmic cubes have to be charged and have limited charge in them. This limitation was neither shown by Beyonder, Molecule Man or Shaper of the World. In terms of Kubik, i have only seen scans of him in comicvine havent read issue with him in it so i cannot comment, but i am fairly certain his powers were not shown to be limited and that he required to be recharged.
They are sentient, but their power source from the universe of the race of Beyonders is still the same, so I don't think there's any reason to think their power level is any different. Or are you saying that they are better able to use their powers because they know their potential? I could buy that. I can agree with #2.
When you say 6 cubes vs 6 gem, i was under the impression that people who used gem knew how to use it. Because if you did not know how to use the gem you cant use it to full powers, but its the same story with cubes. There was a huge difference when thanos has the cube, and mind you he had only 1, as compared to what Goddess did when she had what 5/7 cubes, her feats still look lackluster. The only way Thanos lost was because he though he had become one with the cube, so in the end it was his mistake, while Goddess was actually beaten by Thanos and Warlock fighting together despite her having more amount of cubes.
Yes, the users do know how to use the gems and cubes for this battle.
I am glad we agree the full potential of reality gem is shown to be more powerful than cubes, because unlike cubes gems do not need to be recharged and the scope is unlimited.
After thinking about it, the point of the gems is that they are the universe's key into that particular aspect of the whole universe, as I remember, so I suppose the reality gem ought to be the last word on reality manipulation.
dont agree what you said about Power Gem though, power gem gives you the durability of the god and i dont think its only physical durability. Had it been so than Warlock would not have been able to tank magic attack from Dr. Strange (mind you it was the classic Strange) and durability against magic is not the same as physical durability. Also there is the instance of Magus tanking an ultimate nullifier and we know nullifier isnt just a power gun (not like the one Genis Vell had) because it has re-created a damaged marvel multiverse at the end of Abraxas saga, i do own this issue and can post scans if required. So i am not convienced its only physical durability. Also there is the fact that power gem allows you to have access to ANY POWERS in the universe, at least thats the description it was given during Thanos Quest 2 as well as its bio, and i have no reason to believe this to be untrue.
Hadn't heard the thing about how the power gem gives you access to any power in the universe. My impression was more that it was a power source--that it could power up anything, essentially. So in Drax's case, for example, it could amp up his powers to almost infinite extent. The magic/ultimate nullifier attacks certainly aren't normal attacks, but neither are they necessarily a form of reality manipulation, I think the cubes could still affect a power gem holder. Anyway I'm going to go back and look at the issues I have before I comment more on this.
@DangerousLoki said:
I have to comment on this and what @Owie: said in regards to the Infinity Watch. You're both forgetting that when Adam Warlock selected the Inifinity Watch he selected people who wouldn't have full access to the powers of the Infinity Gems. Moondragon for instance had such vast psychic abilities that she never really actively used the Mind Gem because she didn't need it. Drax was too simple minded to access anything more then an increase in strength and durability. Pip had a simple mind and only focused on running away and never thought to use the Space gem for anything but that. Gamora was a fighter and existed in the here and now and in the physical so had no practical use in her mind for the time gem. Thanos was... as pointed out.. smart enough to know the risks of the Reality gem and not use. And Warlock? Warlock had the Soul Gem forever and knew what he was doing with it. So the Infinity Watch's lack of skill with the gems were intended and not a reflection of a lack of ability on the gems part.
True to an extent (I would argue that they used the gems in the way that worked best for them, although that may not be the best way to use them overall).
@Owie: I can agree. Was just pointing out that using them as a measuring stick isn't a great idea. They didn't use them to the limits of their power. Some of them didn't use them at all actively. And those that did, used them in simple forms. It worked for them, true, but it wasn't what they were capable of.
Current Cubes vs Current Gems, I would say that Cubes win with difficulty from Reality Gem.
@Killemall:
OK, I've read through a bunch of old Infinity Gem-related series and picked up some new info and confirmed some ideas we've been tossing around.
I found a number of places in the comics, esp. Infinity Gauntlet and Thanos Quest, that described the Power Gem basically the way I described it: as a fuel source, something that can amp up the power levels of existing items, and which makes all the other gems work at a much higher level when combined. But I didn't see anything in Thanos Quest #2 about it giving you access to other super powers in the universe. I do see that most of the wikis describe it as allowing you to duplicate most other super powers, although that seems odd to me and I'd be curious to know where that actually comes from in a comic. But anyway it's not really relevant to this battle since any normal super power it would duplicate is certainly less effective than a cosmic cube's overall wishing power. When they say super powers I don't think they're talking about powers like the "power of Eternity."
I saw the issue where Cronos tries to stick Thanos back in time, but Thanos stops him. That certainly does indicate that the Time Gem, when in the IG, can override anyone else's time-control powers. It should be noted however that because the Time Gem was in the IG, its powers were automatically amped by the Power Gem, and so to a degree we don't know what its power level would be like on its own. But overall I feel like it's probably true that the Infinity Gems are better at controlling their particular power than any other source would be at controlling that power, so the Time Gem is better at controlling time than the cosmic cube would be, just as the Reality Gem would be better at controlling reality than a cosmic cube would be. Which is not to say that the cosmic cubes can't possibly defeat some of the gems by effectively using their greater breadth of powers.
I also found the source for the scans you showed with Quasar shooting the Ultimate Nullifier at Magus. It's from Infinity War #5. In fact, he does not actually shoot the Ultimate Nullifier, so there is nothing for the Magus to tank. It takes place over many pages, and I can scan them if you like, but here's what happened. It's complicated, and I'm including some other details because they're somewhat relevant to the whole question of the power of the gems:
Adam Warlock has the IG, but the Living Tribunal has ruled that the Gems can't work in unison anymore, so in Adam's words it's useless. So he lets Magus take it. Now this is interesting, because even if they can't work in unison, they should be able to work separately, so they should still be objects of great power. But Adam doesn't seem to think so, and in fact while there are several instances in this issue where Magus could use the gems individually, but he doesn't. I don't know if this is PIS, or if something happened in the previous issue so the individual gems don't work either. (I have issue #5, but not 4). This whole time, Quasar has the UN and wants to shoot it at Magus, but can't figure out how it works and doesn't know if he's up to doing it. Magus and Adam Warlock are in his space station. Magus knows Quasar has the UN, and has set up a machine of some kind to send out a harmonic energy that will block the UN's blast (note that this is done with a machine and not the IG). Meanwhile, Doom and Kang are there, and they attack, but are knocked back (NOT by the gems at all, just Warlock and Magus using normal powers). This fight destroys the machine that would nullify the Ultimate Nullifier (which I think we can all agree is silly), so they are now vulnerable if Quasar can ever get it to work. Magus runs away to his main Cosmic Container Unit (i.e. a big cosmic cube) to see if he can use that to stop the UN (which says something about the power of the CCU), but the Cosmic Container Unit has been taken (by the Goddess). Doom blasts Magus, who is wearing the IG, several times, hard enough to force Magus give up and agree to give him the IG. So again I don't know if the IG is truly just totally deactivated or what. Supposedly from what this issue says, the gems can't work together, but that shouldn't stop their individual powers from kicking Doom's butt. Instead he's totally beaten down. BUT, right then due to Magus' machinations the LT rules that the Gems CAN work together again, and so the Magus keeps the IG and uses it to stop Doom with the gems' combined powers. Quasar, at that moment, is just about to press the trigger on the UN. But the Magus uses his power to turn the UN's power against Quasar, disintegrating Quasar, and allowing the UN to fall into the Magus' hand.
So basically to sum up the Magus never tanked a shot from the Ultimate Nullifier.
On the side of the cosmic cubes, it's my impression that everything the Goddess did in the Infinity Crusade (at least the first few issues, which is all I've got) was through the power of the cubes. Now of course she had many cubes at her disposal, so these feats are probably above what a solitary cube could do. But still she was able to communicate with people all over the galaxy and teleport them to her side, to defeat Warlock (albeit by surprise) while he was wearing the Soul Gem, to create a planet and an entire living environment from nothingness, and to mentally enslave Moondragon while she was wearing the Mind Gem. So if nothing else, several Cosmic Cubes are enough to beat one Infinity Gem. I don't have this whole series, but I note that at least originally, she didn't bother taking the Soul or Mind Gem when she had the opportunity, being happy to stick with the Cosmic Containment Units.
while thanos looked nearly omnipotent with the cube the Goddess in Infinity Crusade didnt, also add to the fact that in recent Thanos Imperative Nova with a fully charge cube couldnt KO Thanos while Kosmos did.
I went through Thanos Imperative. At the beginning of the one-shot before the limited series, it shows them with the powerless cube and they say how it let them "bag Thanos but that's it." I guess the part where Nova actually used it was before this, perhaps in a different limited series? I'd be interested to know where. Anyway, the cube is somehow re-energized later on and then Star Lord has it in #6 where he uses it to attack Thanos in their suicide attack in the Cancerverse, and we don't see what happened. But I have to say it's kind of silly for a cube to not be able to beat Thanos, when a cube is exactly what he wanted to have in order to be omnipotent. Either very inconsistent writing or perhaps the cubes can be powered to different levels? This thing about cubes losing their power is somewhat inconsistent. I know Thanos's original one did, and some others, but then others have been through a fair amount of energy use and have not run out.
Kosmos didn't beat Thanos, Thanos beat Kosmos. Which again is super-inconsistent writing in regard to her power level, they really depowered Kosmos from her previous abilities, or from the abilities shown by other sentient Cubes, when they started calling her the Maker.
Looking at the recent Avengers story where the Hood gets the gems, there's some interesting stuff, although you have to take Bendis' anti-continuity writing style into account. It really emphasizes that you have to know how to use the gems to really take advantage of their power. Of course, in the fight in this thread, the users do know how to use them, so that's not an issue. Interestingly, Thor has the Time Gem for a while, and totally doesn't take advantage of it in any way, and you'd think as a god he'd know how to use it. When both the Hood and Red Hulk use the Power Gem, they just use it for pure physical power, not to copy powers or anything (although they are not knowledgable about it, so maybe they don't know it can do that, if it can). Then at another point the Hood has the Reality and Space Gems, and battles Prof. X telepathically, and it takes a while for him to beat Prof. X. (Prof X has the Mind gem nearby but is not using it.) Then, with the Mind, Space, and Reality Gem, he is still not able to tell that Dr. Strange is casting an illusion spell on him. The the Red Hulk with a Power Gem is able to fight the Hood, who has the Reality gem, for a while. Again, the Hood is not a skilled user, and Bendis-PIS is on, I'm just looking for examples of people using the gems individually. (Compare this to when Nebula took hold of the full IG. She was completely unskilled, but was able to take full omnipotence right away, and fairly competently.)
Anyway I am still basically where I was before. I think the Reality Gem could beat a Cube, and I think the Time Gem could probably beat a Cube. I think the Cubes could probably beat the other Gems. The Mind and Soul Gems have a chance, but there it's more about which user thinks of a way to beat their opponent first. For instance the Mind Gem could steal the mind of the user of the Cube, but on the other hand the user of the Cube could just wish the Mind Gem user to be a carrot, or the Cube user could wish for the Mind Gem to be teleported over to the Cube user, who then has both.
The cube users could use a combo of Galactus-level energy and (i assume) time-distortion, reality-warping, and mind-control against the gem users, while the gem users would be restricted to their gem's specific powers. I'd give this to the cube users.
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