Young Justice 209/35 "Darkest" Discussion (Spoilers)

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#1 Posted by Bestostero (5618 posts) - - Show Bio

Neptune's beard, It's on!

#2 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3948 posts) - - Show Bio

This episode was fantastic as always but I feel sorry for both Mal and Wally. Speaking of which does Mal not have any powers in the YJ-verse or what. Also I know Wally is worried and everything but it was Artemis's decision to cooperate with the plan in the first place

#3 Posted by cattlebattle (12668 posts) - - Show Bio
@redbird3rdboywonder said:

This episode was fantastic as always but I feel sorry for both Mal and Wally. Speaking of which does Mal not have any powers in the YJ-verse or what. Also I know Wally is worried and everything but it was Artemis's decision to cooperate with the plan in the first place

Mal is powerless, and apparently so was Shimmer.....I guess. Mal became Guardian in the comics and popular speculation indicates that in the episode "Cornered" when the team is trapped in the Hall of Justice, Mal will don the Guardian costume......
 
I am confused as to Kaldurs not wanting to take Nightwing captive because he doesn't have powers...I thought the point of capturing most of the kids was to give them powers.....I suppose it had to with Kaldur protecting him...if he isn't a triple agent as Wally suggested.
 
So many questions
#4 Posted by Bestostero (5618 posts) - - Show Bio

Good episode, i liked that Wally had doubts and raised the point to Dick that maybe Aqualad has truly turned (although I'd never believe it), they are going through great lengths to cement his position on the opposing side, but its seems to be working (although his subordinates seems to think otherwise) and Aqualad is finally introduced to the Lights, and we'll probably meet the partner officially next episode (everyone probably saw that scene in the preview for season 2)

Great to see Artemis again (i think her Tigress design is great), Blue Beetle's conversations with himself is great as always, and i really liked that Mal Duncan had more screen time and hopefully he'll be able to do more soon!

very much looking forward to the next episode, the rescue mission and the superfriends characters lol

#5 Posted by danhimself (22442 posts) - - Show Bio

Dick sure does sound a lot like Batman....ends justify the means

#6 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3948 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

This episode was fantastic as always but I feel sorry for both Mal and Wally. Speaking of which does Mal not have any powers in the YJ-verse or what. Also I know Wally is worried and everything but it was Artemis's decision to cooperate with the plan in the first place

Mal is powerless, and apparently so was Shimmer.....I guess. Mal became Guardian in the comics and popular speculation indicates that in the episode "Cornered" when the team is trapped in the Hall of Justice, Mal will don the Guardian costume...... I am confused as to Kaldurs not wanting to take Nightwing captive because he doesn't have powers...I thought the point of capturing most of the kids was to give them powers.....I suppose it had to with Kaldur protecting him...if he isn't a triple agent as Wally suggested. So many questions

I wonder why they made him powerless.... you're right so many questions. Also Nightwing kind of explained it, the reason why Kaldur didnt take Nightwing and Superboy capture is because he's not a triple agent as Wally is suggesting(Wally's just letting his concern for Aretmis speak for him), he did it so Nightwing could rescue La'gan and the rest of them. Though I do wonder where the rest of the team was

#7 Edited by redbird3rdboywonder (3948 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: @Bestostero: I have a feeling that once Kaldur does return to the good side the team will have difficulty trusting all 4 of them thus leading to a possible episode titled "Trust" or perhaps "Betrayl"

#8 Posted by cattlebattle (12668 posts) - - Show Bio
@redbird3rdboywonder said:

I wonder why they made him powerless.... you're right so many questions. Also Nightwing kind of explained it, the reason why Kaldur didnt take Nightwing and Superboy capture is because he's not a triple agent as Wally is suggesting(Wally's just letting his concern for Aretmis speak for him), he did it so Nightwing could rescue La'gan and the rest of them. Though I do wonder where the rest of the team was

Likely because he was originally powerless in the comics. 
 
True, I know he didn't take him because he was giving him a flash drive and wanted him to pursue....I am saying the reason Kaldur used was "he doesn't have any powers"....which confused me, because I thought they were nabbing powerless kids and Nightwing is powerless, unless the terror twins and Icicle have no clue why their capturing people...but then Aqualad wouldn't have had to explain it......Writers error or something I suppose
#9 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3948 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

I wonder why they made him powerless.... you're right so many questions. Also Nightwing kind of explained it, the reason why Kaldur didnt take Nightwing and Superboy capture is because he's not a triple agent as Wally is suggesting(Wally's just letting his concern for Aretmis speak for him), he did it so Nightwing could rescue La'gan and the rest of them. Though I do wonder where the rest of the team was

Likely because he was originally powerless in the comics. True, I know he didn't take him because he was giving him a flash drive and wanted him to pursue....I am saying the reason Kaldur used was "he doesn't have any powers"....which confused me, because I thought they were nabbing powerless kids and Nightwing is powerless, unless the terror twins and Icicle have no clue why their capturing people...but then Aqualad wouldn't have had to explain it......Writers error or something I suppose

Most likely it was a writers error also I think Bart has a very key role in upcoming episodes

#10 Posted by cattlebattle (12668 posts) - - Show Bio
@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@cattlebattle said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

Most likely it was a writers error also I think Bart has a very key role in upcoming episodes

Heck yeah. Something I noticed was Bart seemed to think Aqualad was a traitor, being he is from the future.....he would know these things, although he has stated to not be big on history. The cave being destroyed apparently came to fruition as in his timeline it was destoryed
#11 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3948 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@cattlebattle said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

Most likely it was a writers error also I think Bart has a very key role in upcoming episodes

Heck yeah. Something I noticed was Bart seemed to think Aqualad was a traitor, being he is from the future.....he would know these things, although he has stated to not be big on history. The cave being destroyed apparently came to fruition as in his timeline it was destoryed

Very true but most likely the cave would have been rebuilt by that time so perhaps it was destroyed again. Also my thoughts exactly, I figured Bart would know if Kaldur was a true traitor or not but then again Bart is from an alternate future so maybe that's why

#12 Posted by CrimsonCake (2673 posts) - - Show Bio

Weren't Beast boy and Tim in the mountain when it exploded? We didn't see them anywhere after the explosion.

#13 Posted by cattlebattle (12668 posts) - - Show Bio
@redbird3rdboywonder said:


Very true but most likely the cave would have been rebuilt by that time so perhaps it was destroyed again. Also my thoughts exactly, I figured Bart would know if Kaldur was a true traitor or not but then again Bart is from an alternate future so maybe that's why

Why would the cave get rebuilt?? It was a hollowed out mountain and Impulse comes from a "post-reach invasion" future, the invasion seems to be due to happen soon, so if the League and team are going to be busy fending off an invasion it seems unlikely they would find time or necessity to rebuild it, after they successfully prevent the invasion then I could see them building another base of some sort, but then the future will be altered
 
As of now Impulse is from the future. He has already prevented one thing from happening, so I guess it is changing as he participates. He seems to be trying to befriend Blue Beetle as he seems know that Jaime will have an important role with the invasion, it is also ironic how Impulse was largely responsible for the cave getting destroyed in the first place seeing as he is trying to prevent his future
#14 Posted by srk12 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

I see Wally's point. I think this plan Dick and Kaldur have come up with has far too many variables. Its one thing to risk your own life, but they are risking the lives of team members who aren't a part of the plan and are basically being toyed with. Its an interesting ethical dilemma because there's only so much Dick, Wally, Kaldur, and Artemis can do to protect the others since its just four of them. I don't think Kaldur is a triple agent, but Wally did raise a valid concern. Nightwing isn't really in control of this mission anymore.

#15 Posted by Nightflame (26 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't wait for the next episode! This one was so awesome, and it raised a whole bunch of questions over whose side Kaldur is REALLY on. I personally choose to believe that he hasn't really gone over to the dark side and will come back to the team after this whole ordeal is figured out. Now, on the cave front, I think we have not seen the last of it, whether it is rebuilt soon or not so soon. My question is, how is the team gonna get through THIS mess. I mean, BLOWING UP MOUNT JUSTICE? I get that it was neccessary and all, but they are going to be in a world of pain if the league finds out that it was blown up on purpose. I think that all will smooth out eventually, but there is a tiny voice in the back of my head wondering if they have gone too far this time...

(On the bright side, Nightwing, Kaldur, and Wally (maybe not so much Wally, but at least he was there) got a LOT of screen time. I hope the next episode will be the same way. :])

#16 Posted by cattlebattle (12668 posts) - - Show Bio
@CrimsonCake said:

Weren't Beast boy and Tim in the mountain when it exploded? We didn't see them anywhere after the explosion.

Beast Boy was captive with Impulse and Blue Beetle, Tim was elsewhere in this episode apparently
#17 Posted by CrimsonCake (2673 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@CrimsonCake said:

Weren't Beast boy and Tim in the mountain when it exploded? We didn't see them anywhere after the explosion.

Beast Boy was captive with Impulse and Blue Beetle, Tim was elsewhere in this episode apparently

You're right, I thought I saw Tim somewhere...

#18 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

i'm starting to lose serious interest in this. the plot is unnecessarily complicated and predictable.

#19 Posted by JohnnyGat (1562 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

I wonder why they made him powerless.... you're right so many questions. Also Nightwing kind of explained it, the reason why Kaldur didnt take Nightwing and Superboy capture is because he's not a triple agent as Wally is suggesting(Wally's just letting his concern for Aretmis speak for him), he did it so Nightwing could rescue La'gan and the rest of them. Though I do wonder where the rest of the team was

Likely because he was originally powerless in the comics. True, I know he didn't take him because he was giving him a flash drive and wanted him to pursue....I am saying the reason Kaldur used was "he doesn't have any powers"....which confused me, because I thought they were nabbing powerless kids and Nightwing is powerless, unless the terror twins and Icicle have no clue why their capturing people...but then Aqualad wouldn't have had to explain it......Writers error or something I suppose

I'm running on weak memory here but remember when the whole encounter with Psimon with the girls where they failed to send the kids to the partner. They said something about meeting their quota of runaways or something. And with what the partners were discussing about Lagoon Boy and the meta gene maybe its because the partner already has enough powerless kids and are more inclined to take meta humans to crossover the m-gene to the powerless kids. It also explains why they wouldn't take Superboy even he had super powers because his meta-gene would have been purely artificial considering Conner is a clone. Just a theory.

Online
#20 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3948 posts) - - Show Bio

@theTimeStreamer: How has it been predictable?

#21 Posted by Shutdown (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Well the Reach did state they are interested in the Meta-gene, so perhaps they are capturing individuals with meta-genes. This could include the kids like Ty because maybe their meta-genes haven't been activated yet. Or they could need some ordinary test subjects to implant the meta-gene in.

#22 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

@redbird3rdboywonder: how has it not? its one of the oldest plots. guy goes undercover. he goes to extremes to get in the inner circle. his partners begin to doubt his loyalties. guess what comes next?

#23 Posted by Captain13 (3314 posts) - - Show Bio

When the truth comes out, there's no way people are going to trust Nightwing, Artemis, Kid Flash, and Aqual--er--Devil Ray. They'll probably end up starting their own black ops team--The Outsiders.

#24 Posted by Captain13 (3314 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing wasn't kidnapped because he doesn't have a latent metagene like Ty or Static.

#25 Posted by cattlebattle (12668 posts) - - Show Bio
@Shutdown said:

@cattlebattle: Well the Reach did state they are interested in the Meta-gene, so perhaps they are capturing individuals with meta-genes. This could include the kids like Ty because maybe their meta-genes haven't been activated yet. Or they could need some ordinary test subjects to implant the meta-gene in.

I don't believe the Reach is the one interested in the meta-genes. Its kind of confusing but it appears the Reach were competing with the Kroloteans for reasons I don't know and the figures that Lagoon Boy saw, the same ones that turned Nuetron loose in "Bloodties" are the ones enhancing the humans for the Light....
 
I am probably wrong and we will find out whats going on but thus far it seems The Light and the partner from The Reach are working together but will likely wind up scheming against one another and obviously the forces of Apokolips are intertwined somewhere.......
 
I think its basically The Reach, The Light and the mysterious alien figures we saw. (Kroloteans didn't make the cut and were sabotaged by The Reach) all trying to avoid an Apokolips invasion??? and the Team isn't aware of this so they are just going to mess things up. It just will end up with a Reach invasion instead..
 
Its confusing at this point
#26 Posted by CorporalAtlas (8 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm guessing that each person will gain an ability from somebody who already has a meta-gene? Lagoon Boy's ability to grow could cross over to Longshadow, Impulse's speed to that teleporting kid, Beast Boy's transformation could give Shimmer her ability to transform objects she had in the comics, and Beetle might give Static his powers but IDK about that connection. Also if this theory were right there'd be one meta-human missing to pass on its powers to that girl, and I'm not exactly sure if Blue Beetle counts as a meta-human.

@theTimeStreamer said:

@redbird3rdboywonder: how has it not? its one of the oldest plots. guy goes undercover. he goes to extremes to get in the inner circle. his partners begin to doubt his loyalties. guess what comes next?

It's obviously going to blow up in somebody's face, but the ramifications of it aren't certain. Not to mention that it's just one arc in a plot that isn't as overly complicated as you make it out to be(shortly before you call it predictable).

#27 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7693 posts) - - Show Bio

@srk12 said:

I see Wally's point. I think this plan Dick and Kaldur have come up with has far too many variables. Its one thing to risk your own life, but they are risking the lives of team members who aren't a part of the plan and are basically being toyed with. Its an interesting ethical dilemma because there's only so much Dick, Wally, Kaldur, and Artemis can do to protect the others since its just four of them. I don't think Kaldur is a triple agent, but Wally did raise a valid concern. Nightwing isn't really in control of this mission anymore.

This

#28 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7693 posts) - - Show Bio

@Captain13 said:

When the truth comes out, there's no way people are going to trust Nightwing, Artemis, Kid Flash, and Aqual--er--Devil Ray. They'll probably end up starting their own black ops team--The Outsiders.

#29 Posted by Shutdown (96 posts) - - Show Bio

Kinda knew that some of the Team would be captured due to Before the Dawn's synopsis. I think perhaps that Aqualad (and possibly Artemis) will be outed as double agents in Ep 11 "True Colours" just because of the name.

Interesting that this episode is "Darkest"and the next is "Before the Dawn". Darkest Before the Dawn. Possibly related to the Light and hinting at the invasion.

#30 Posted by vernierhawk001 (534 posts) - - Show Bio

@theTimeStreamer said:

@redbird3rdboywonder: how has it not? its one of the oldest plots. guy goes undercover. he goes to extremes to get in the inner circle. his partners begin to doubt his loyalties. guess what comes next?

I guess I would argue that this is different in that its told from the point of view of the ops manager...not so much emphasis on kaldur. Sure it's going to blow back in their faces but I think this show has done a good job of showing the affect it is having on friendships, (dick and wally) and trust (m'gann, conner, etc). Besides all that, I think the show is unafraid to explore the real consequences of this choice. For instance, I would not be suprised if Dick ends up retiring from the Team after this op is found out/ after the invasion is dealt with. This has turned out almost exactly like the mission simulation that occured in the first season where he effectively kept secrets from his Team and made the right tactical decision...but at the expense of his friends.

#31 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7693 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this mission will go too far with Dick getting a member who doesn't know what's going on, killed.

#32 Posted by mobilesleepy (20 posts) - - Show Bio

Great episode.

I don't know much about the DC roster of characters, but this show has been consistently entertaining and well plotted.

I agree with what http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/jnr6lil/ stated. This may cause a casualty, and it may be Kaldur. Probably by M'gann's hands-er mind.

I don't understand why Shimmer was with the captives, I thought she was part of the Light.

#33 Posted by X9 (757 posts) - - Show Bio

The episode was ok.

Really liked Malcom's scenes and I LOVED Dick and Wally's conversation.

#34 Posted by vernierhawk001 (534 posts) - - Show Bio

Idk....I think Dick getting someone killed would go too far with this series (not because it couldn't happen but because Dick is easily one of the most popular characters on here. The blow back the writers would get from that would be extreme)

#35 Posted by serfdom (18 posts) - - Show Bio

longshadows grandpa hinted that he might already have the meta gene combine that with what we heard this episode

all the captives could already have their powers but maybe they arent superhuman level until they are experamented on by the reach

#36 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

Best ep in a long while. Aqualad went nuts. He punched the dog crap outta Nightwing.

#37 Edited by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@theTimeStreamer said:

i'm starting to lose serious interest in this. the plot is unnecessarily complicated and predictable.

Finally! someone with the gall to say what I've been saying for months. The show just uses the art style to get views. The story, and most of the characters are bland as vanilla ice-cream without sprinkles.

#38 Posted by serfdom (18 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive said:

@theTimeStreamer said:

i'm starting to lose serious interest in this. the plot is unnecessarily complicated and predictable.

Finally! someone with the gall to say what I've been saying for months. The show just uses the art style to get views. The story, and most of the characters are bland as vanilla ice-cream without sprinkles.

weird i love the art dont get me wrong but the reason i watch has nothing to do with the art, all about the characters

#39 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

@serfdom: most people, i believe, watch the show for the prospect of the characters. maybe a nod here and there to something from the comics.

#40 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3078 posts) - - Show Bio

this is one of my favorite episodes so far, since it came back on.

#41 Posted by CorporalAtlas (8 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive said:

@theTimeStreamer said:

i'm starting to lose serious interest in this. the plot is unnecessarily complicated and predictable.

Finally! someone with the gall to say what I've been saying for months. The show just uses the art style to get views. The story, and most of the characters are bland as vanilla ice-cream without sprinkles.

You say that right after you talk about how this is the best episode in awhile because Aqualad "went crazy on Nightwing." Might just be your opinion on the matter, not everybody's.

#42 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@CorporalAtlas: You do not have to remind me what I said. I know what I said. And I did not like that episode because Nightwing got punched. I was simply pointing out what about that episode I thought was funny. YJ is bland as hell. The plot is uninteresting. It takes itself way too seriously. It should not be as serious as it is. The reason that episode was good is because it had a lot of action, and the plot is finally moving, unlike the majority of the season 2 episodes.

And isn't it just crazy to you that after 30 something episodes, we still haven't reached closure on the main bad guys? Oh, I know why we haven't. Because the writers are twiddling their thumbs looking for ways to wow us. Well, I am not wowed yet.

Aqualad still punched the dog crap outta Nightwing, though.

#43 Posted by Munsu (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive: You do realize that Aqualad punched Nightwing to pass him that flash drive with all of the information on it explaining what was going on on Aqualad's end, right?

And they were given 46 episodes to tell a story. Sure they could have had them defeat the main bad guys in 30 episodes and spend the remaining 16 telling stand alone stories, but they didn't do that. They plotted their entire story around the episodes they were given and it is going to take all those episodes to see how the story ends. YJ is different than your traditional superhero cartoons and how it is telling its story and its pacing are more like what you would see in network dramas, where you have a single plot that runs multiple seasons, instead of more traditional cartoons where you have small arcs or stand alone episodes where everything pretty much gets resolved in the span of those episode(s) with maybe vague hints of a larger plot.

So I can understand why some people would prefer the more traditional way, since that is what they are accustomed to and would probably allow for more action instead of focusing on the drama and dialogue, but I've enjoyed what YJ has done so far and I am excited to see how this large story resolves itself and everything comes together at the end of the season.

#44 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@Munsu: Yeah I know. They showed that toward the end. It was still a very good punch. He just walked up to him, punched him. The effect of it left my brother and I dying of laughter.

Spreading the story this long makes the plot less engaging. It isn't that I'm not able to follow up with the plot, because I can. But when you lay out something over this long a period of time, people will not be as excited as they were during the shows first episodes.

The only thing this show is good for now is Blue Beetle, and Static. My two favorite DC teen heroes.

#45 Posted by Skaddix (3113 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I support your choices for favorite teen characters.

#46 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7693 posts) - - Show Bio

@Munsu said:

@Twentyfive: You do realize that Aqualad punched Nightwing to pass him that flash drive with all of the information on it explaining what was going on on Aqualad's end, right?

And they were given 46 episodes to tell a story. Sure they could have had them defeat the main bad guys in 30 episodes and spend the remaining 16 telling stand alone stories, but they didn't do that. They plotted their entire story around the episodes they were given and it is going to take all those episodes to see how the story ends. YJ is different than your traditional superhero cartoons and how it is telling its story and its pacing are more like what you would see in network dramas, where you have a single plot that runs multiple seasons, instead of more traditional cartoons where you have small arcs or stand alone episodes where everything pretty much gets resolved in the span of those episode(s) with maybe vague hints of a larger plot.

So I can understand why some people would prefer the more traditional way, since that is what they are accustomed to and would probably allow for more action instead of focusing on the drama and dialogue, but I've enjoyed what YJ has done so far and I am excited to see how this large story resolves itself and everything comes together at the end of the season.

This, YJ is like JLU, It all builds up towards one climax. It's made the show interesting.

#47 Posted by tahmidk (283 posts) - - Show Bio

did anyone recognize the aliens that lagaan saw where jaimes friends and the other kids were captured?

#48 Posted by X9 (757 posts) - - Show Bio

@tahmidk said:

did anyone recognize the aliens that lagaan saw where jaimes friends and the other kids were captured?

No...I was wondering the same.

#49 Posted by Ms. Omega (4420 posts) - - Show Bio

Just glad they showed Static and Apache Chief for a few seconds at the end :)

#50 Posted by SHAZAM117 (2795 posts) - - Show Bio

Another great ep, can't wait for next Saturday

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