@sentryman555 What interests me is how Nightwing and Wally will keep Miss Martian from finding out considering she can read their thoughts. although, she may be too distraught to actually even attempt something like that. I also have a feeling Lagoon Boy is not going to make it. I remember Greg Weisman said something along the lines that there would be many new characters, some will make it into the team and some will not. Lagoon Boy will be in the second category. The tone of the show has taken a shift towards the dark. I can't see any of the members being particularly cheerful for a while while a teammate's death is lurking over their heads.

On another note, congratulations guys. This may be the fastest we have ever reached to hundred posts on a discussion topic about the episode. Goes to show how dramatic the episode was.

I don't think Lagoon Boy will die, lets not forget he's under Aqualad's custody.

Kaldur already spoke up for him saying he would be a suitable candidate for the partners, he wouldn't let Lagoon Boy die, he'll probably allow him to escape somehow...

great episode...

+Nightwing

+Kaldur

+All the twists and turns to keep us waiting...

...and now for the hiatus...

Anyone else hate Lagoon Boy as much as I do? I love all of the new characters except for him...
 
Biggest plus from this episode for me was seeing Nightwing is action, I guess I've been playing Arkham City too much because watching him fight made me feel like I was playing the game. xD
 
Awesome episode, didn't see any of that coming. I also hope Superboy and Miss M. resolve what happened and get back together. :)

I don't think Superboy and Miss Martian are gonna get back, he already disapproves of her methods, but the fact that she used it on him and he found out. Plus I think she moved on anyways, she had the option to help Superboy or Lagoon Boy and she chose to help Lagoon Boy, even though she failed.

@Bestostero Actually I thought she helped Superboy because she attacked the missiles that were being launched first and attacked the Black Manta follower who was launching them before she tried to go after Lagoon Boy.

@srk12 said:

@Bestostero Actually I thought she helped Superboy because she attacked the missiles that were being launched first and attacked the Black Manta follower who was launching them before she tried to go after Lagoon Boy.

Only because that missile was launched right in front of her, if it was one of the missiles outside, she wasn't gonna get it.

I don't think Superboy and Miss Martian are gonna get back, he already disapproves of her methods, but the fact that she used it on him and he found out. Plus I think she moved on anyways, she had the option to help Superboy or Lagoon Boy and she chose to help Lagoon Boy, even though she failed.

I couldn't care less about Kon and Miss relationship. the only thing I want them to fix is Conner's age frozen plot. I still want to see him as a Superman along with Nightwing, Wally, Zatanna, ect.

@War Killer: If you think so, but I think that ship has long sailed and that relationship is dead and gone.

Anyways, more importantly, nobody said anything about why they think Artemis left with Kaldur, what could she possibly do with him on his mission?

@War Killer: If you think so, but I think that ship has long sailed and that relationship is dead and gone.

Anyways, more importantly, nobody said anything about why they think Artemis left with Kaldur, what could she possibly do with him on his mission?

@War Killer: She could go undercover as Cheshire, didn't clean Red Arrow mention that Cheshire did retire from crime when they got married? But she went back and fourth with a life of crime so I don't know if that would work. I think it would be a sloppy idea if she went as Cheshire, but maybe she could go back as her old identity "Tigress" or maybe her mother's "Huntress".

@War Killer: She could go undercover as Cheshire, didn't clean Red Arrow mention that Cheshire did retire from crime when they got married? But she went back and fourth with a life of crime so I don't know if that would work. I think it would be a sloppy idea if she went as Cheshire, but maybe she could go back as her old identity "Tigress" or maybe her mother's "Huntress".

@War Killer: She could, but it would be too sloppy of a plan. Cheshire did go against Ra's al Ghul to recover Roy Harper's body? Do you think the bad guys would welcome Cheshire back in so easily?

@Underachiever007 said:

@Bestostero: Even though people managed to predict that twist, it sure beats the Hell out of turning the most straight-edged person in the group evil and killing Artemis for no reason. I approve.

this was a great episode ! i'm glad to know that kaldur is still one of the good guys. this episode reminds me of the movie the departed with aqualad being a mole good /bad guy thing.

@War Killer: She could, but it would be too sloppy of a plan. Cheshire did go against Ra's al Ghul to recover Roy Harper's body? Do you think the bad guys would welcome Cheshire back in so easily?

Awesome episode.
 
Still waiting for Mal Duncan to do anything...
 
Having a teleporter in a black ops team couldn't possibly be helpful lol

THIS WAS THE MOST AMAZING EPISODE EVEEER!

LOVE to know Kaldur still on the good guys' side, LOVE the secret plans of Nightwing, Artemis, Wally and Kaldur, LOVED the conversation between M'gann and Connor, LOVED that Lagoon was captured and, HAHA, Nightwing and Zatanna did have a history afterall. (and it seems to be over by now, so... Batgirl, it's your chance)

I'm just worried about Superboy ans especially MM not knowing that Kaldur is still a good guy. I'm afraid they will hurt him or put him into trouble. In fact, I'm afraid Kaldur could die after his father finds out what he's up to...

BUT, YEAH, GREAT STUFF ARE COMING!!!

That hiatus will be hard! So many "what's now"

Best episode yet in my opinion. When Artemis died I remember thinking about how crazy Wally was gonna go. Then I found out Aqualad did it and I remember thinking "Wally is gonna kill Aqualad." Then Aqualad shows up at the meeting and I'm like "Showdown time." It's really rare that I'm thrown through a loop and sucked in so much. Great job by the writers I was totally sold on Aqualad being a bad guy despite others correct beliefs that he was in fact a mole. This raises another question though. What about Tula? If they can pull this off with Artemis maybe she's still alive and kicking. A great show ends every episode with as many questions as there are answers.

Now I'm just waiting for Static to show up.

Dude THIS.IS.AWESOME the episode was amazing.

Superboy/Miss Martian/Lagoon Boy was a deep thing 0_0

First I was like "NOOOOOO F*CK YOU KALDUR NOW I REALLY HATE YOU DAMN B*TCH"

And then "Wait.............oh dude....... oh....... I'm sooooooooo sorry, really really sorry for what I said, I reaaaaaaaaally mean it, please excuse me"

More Nightwing :D oh and he really had his good ride with Zatanna, "We have our history" and I said the same as Wally: Dog

Man that was one of the best episodes yet not gonna spoil it.

I think it is pretty obvious why Artemis was picked to be "killed" and join the dark side. Nightwing needed a seasoned hero to go under with Kaldur which basically leaves Superboy, MM, Wally, Artemis, and Nightwing (although an argument can be made that all of the bats are seasoned considering who they were trained by. But nevertheless). Superboy, while he has matured significantly, he is still easily angered and I don't think he could play this deep of a bad guy. MM is a loose cannon that you could not trust with this. Also she is a nice enough person that I don't think she could play evil either. nightwing has to be the puppet master of the grand scheme of things, which leaves Wally and Artemis. Wally really doesn't have anything that makes it so that he would be a good pick but Artemis has several reasons why she would be good. First, and probably the best reason, she grew up with a family of criminals. Father, mother, and sister were all criminals/villains and so she probably knows some of the tricks of the trade. The second, and not so strong reason, she most likely has been trained in many different fight methods so that she can change into a new MO for her villainous side.

With all of that said, I am not sure how well she will do when she has to work with her dad because he seems like a sharp enough person to pick up on her mannerisms and behaviorism's to know it is her. But I am looking forward to see how everything plays out.

@Ravager4: I'm glad somebody else felt like I did. I'm just glad I didn't post my reactions on Comicvine until it was over :P

Excellent episode, as everyone else has mentioned. I think moreso than the fact the Kaldur is indeed working as a spy, the manner in which they executed it was very tasteful. They built it up to the ending and then when it finally happened, it was very believable and fairly gruesome. Wonder how they managed to hide her pulse? (Superboy said something along the lines of not being able to hear her heart)

Also, I don't know if it's been mentioned, but jeez Nightwing, very Batman-ish on this one. He's been playing this long-con for awhile with a small group, definitely a Batman thing to pull. There's definitely a contrast here though, Nightwing saying "they may never forgive us" is much more concern than what I'd expect from Batman. I'm fairly certain this was his plan, by the way, since he's been playing it very close to the chest with who's involved. Telling MM and Superboy would have been a mistake anyway. Superboy telegraphs his emotions rather easily and MM seems unstable by nature. If Nightwing and Batman haven't figured out her brain-scrambling MO, I'd be seriously surprised; then again, I'm not sure whether they'd have done something about it.

I love the characterization of this show. We don't get a full sense of all the characters and we definitely don't get fleshed out backstory scenes; but what we do see from their interactions and their approaches to scenarios is very revealing.

Also, we got a little shoutout to Bludhaven at the end in this one. Seems like Nightwing doesn't solely operate as the Team coordinator, he must be doing solo work there as well. As a fanboy, I have to wish that they do an episode involving his solo work, however unlikely it may be.

man meggan is a b**ch. what the hell is she on? flawnting her new boyfriend in from of superboy like that. craving attention. she is almost saying: fishboy is hitting this, not you. haha. she is a bad person. and my god is lagoon a tool.

EDIT: oh my god she tried to make superboy forget that shes a psycho!! thats why they broke up. she needs to be put down. like a dog. right now.

Wow

This episode was too crazy

@Manchine said:

Have to say they keep making this better and better. I keep expecting to be let down and bam nope. Sure there is some dry runs for set up but I have to say this was the best episode of this season.

that is exactly how i feel. i can`t belive how good this show is.

Wait, so the Light doesn't bother to do telepathic scans of new recruits, even former superheroes?

Also, I would assume that M'gann is part of the ruse, otherwise she would have known that Artemis didn't die. She would have also offered a blood transfusion.

And how could they not know that M'gann mindwipes people? She did it to a Krolotean right in front of Martian Manhunter.

@KingofMadCows said:

Wait, so the Light doesn't bother to do telepathic scans of new recruits, even former superheroes?

Also, I would assume that M'gann is part of the ruse, otherwise she would have known that Artemis didn't die. She would have also offered a blood transfusion.

And how could they not know that M'gann mindwipes people? She did it to a Krolotean right in front of Martian Manhunter.

You assume that telepathy can't be blocked with sufficient mental training. Or maybe with some sort of Atlantien mysticism. As for the Artemis bit, again, we don't know the extent of M'gaan's powers and how they work. Telepathy and its limitations have never been explored on the show. Perhaps whatever was used to stop Artemis's heart put her in a temporary coma like state where her brain activity was too low to be detectable to M'gaan.

@Underachiever007 said:

@KingofMadCows said:

Wait, so the Light doesn't bother to do telepathic scans of new recruits, even former superheroes?

Also, I would assume that M'gann is part of the ruse, otherwise she would have known that Artemis didn't die. She would have also offered a blood transfusion.

And how could they not know that M'gann mindwipes people? She did it to a Krolotean right in front of Martian Manhunter.

You assume that telepathy can't be blocked with sufficient mental training. Or maybe with some sort of Atlantien mysticism. As for the Artemis bit, again, we don't know the extent of M'gaan's powers and how they work. Telepathy and its limitations have never been explored on the show. Perhaps whatever was used to stop Artemis's heart put her in a temporary coma like state where her brain activity was too low to be detectable to M'gaan.

Really who would want to link to someone that is dieing.

@Underachiever007 said:

@KingofMadCows said:

Wait, so the Light doesn't bother to do telepathic scans of new recruits, even former superheroes?

Also, I would assume that M'gann is part of the ruse, otherwise she would have known that Artemis didn't die. She would have also offered a blood transfusion.

And how could they not know that M'gann mindwipes people? She did it to a Krolotean right in front of Martian Manhunter.

You assume that telepathy can't be blocked with sufficient mental training. Or maybe with some sort of Atlantien mysticism. As for the Artemis bit, again, we don't know the extent of M'gaan's powers and how they work. Telepathy and its limitations have never been explored on the show. Perhaps whatever was used to stop Artemis's heart put her in a temporary coma like state where her brain activity was too low to be detectable to M'gaan.

A telepathic block would immediately raise some red flags.

As for M'gann's telepathy, we know that her psychic powers grow much stronger during great stress. In last season's episode "Failsafe," seeing Artemis "die" in a training exercise caused M'gann to lose control.

Also, the fact that she's mindwiping people now makes confrontations with Kaldur much more difficult. If M'gann sees him again, she'll probably try to break his brain.

@KingofMadCows: Again, the telepathic block need not be detectable. Like I said, the "rules" that govern telepathy have never been given much detail on the show. We don't know how it works. For all we know telepathic blocks could be undetectable to all but the most powerful telepaths.

I was bummed about the "fake out" I kind of saw it coming due to their being some hints with Aqualad....
 
If Aqualad had legitimately killed Artemis it would have solidified his character a being more interesting and  deadly as a villain, I don't see whats the big obsession over Artemis....aside from sentimentality, if you look at it, here characters story was tied up in the first season...
 
So as of now, Kid Flash and Dick Grayson are the only affiliates of the original team that haven't falsely betrayed the team....its just too much

Connor wore Superman's suit! And I knew Kaldur wasn't truly evil, he remains my favourite character on the show.

Was going to come on here and mention how Artemis' cover looks like Linda Park but someone beat me to it

:S

@KingofMadCows: Yeah, I still can't believe Miss Martian wasn't let in, BUT we did see that Miss Martian's victims do revert to being normal eventually (as seen by Psimon and the captured Krolotean, and to some extent Superboy) plus they are heroes and they don't kill, so Kaldur shouldn't be in too much harm.

Man at first I thought the Kaldur as a spy before this episode would be handled in a corny way but they definitely were able to strike the perfect mood for the reveal despite it's obvious nature that it felt really badass.

@Underachiever007 said:

Nightwing's not going to be very popular with the team when the truth finally leaks out. M'gaan and Conner will probably be hurt they weren't let in on it. They were lead to believe that one of there teammates had turned evil and another was dead. His reputation with the team may become a little Batman-esque.

What do you mean Batman-esque exactly? He was making decisions based on the future not really the present, on paper it seems like a good plan.

@srk12 said:

Loved the episode. My dislike for Lagoon Boy and Miss Martian heightened with this episode though. Lagoon Boy is still a childish arrogant idiot and I can't believe what Miss Martian did to Superboy. I have to say that I've started liking Connor a lot more this season now that he's calmed down and acts more mature. I like how he chewed out Miss Martian without having to yell at her. I knew Artemis wasn't dead the moment they proclaimed her death at the beginning of the episode. I mean if it was a real death than it would have occurred as a surprise at the end of the episode. I am happy to finally see Nightwing in action after being just the one who issues instructions. Also, I am glad Aqualad turned out to be a double agent because him being a villain never made sense to me. Wally was a scene stealer, inserting some much needed humor in the episode towards the end. Artemis was great too. I'm still not sure why Nightwing asked Artemis for this when he could have asked anyone else on the team. And what happened at the end? Why did Artemis go off with Aqualad? I'm assuming she will be another mole but I find it pretty weird that they would pick Artemis for it, especially when she was retired. I felt pretty sad that Wally and Artemis had to part. Their last scene together was pretty sweet. I wonder what will happen with Wally. He has to play the part of a grieving boyfriend. I assume they might have him take up the uniform and return to the team as an excuse to look for Kaldur while really helping Nightwing with the investigation. I shudder to think how the rest of the team will take it once they find out. Particularly Miss Martian and Superboy. I feel that they should have been included considering they were part of the original team. Would have made it look like that the senior members have complete faith in one another. Anyways, great episode though probably a touch too dark and sad from what I usually like.

I believe they wouldn't include her because Nightwing being trained by Batman and all to me would make him the type to realize potential risks. He normally knows more than the tells like when he didn't reveal or even hint to knowing that Artemis wasn't related to Green Arrow. He probably knows the full situation with those two but is choosing to stay out of it for now, but realizes she is too much of a risk for that reason. As for Superboy I think it would just be better to keep him out of it for reasons of his temper, relationship with the crazy martian and a few other reasons.

@AFuzzyMuffin: Batman is perhaps the most well respected member of the League, but, as he has often admitted himself, he isn't exactly the most trusted. Dick is well loved and trusted, but his teammates will definitely feel angry and betrayed about how their emotions were toyed with, how such a gargantuan secret was kept from them. It was all logical, but that isn't going to matter to MM and Superboy. MM is already emotionally unstable and Superboy has never made an effort to suppress his emotions in favor of logic. Dick's decisions may alienate the younger members as well. There may not be open hostility, but they'll probably feel the way the original team felt in season one when secrets of the League were kept from them. As Dick said himself, "they may never forgive us". The affection the team has for him may turn into a colder, more distant, Batman-esque respect. That's what I meant.

Well that was an emotional rollercoaster. At first I thought Artemis' death was faked (when we saw at the beginning of the episode) but when she actually got (fake) stabbed I thought it really happened as a way to make the audience hate and take Aqualad seriously.

Yikes. Awesome episode. Glad to have found out the exact reason for the SB MM breakup. Really starting to dislike Miss Martian. I hope they give a genuine reason why she became so power crazy rather than just she got stronger and decided to use it.

Admittedly, I was hoping that Aqualad was genuinely bad now and that he wasn't undercover. You'd think Black Manta would have Psimon or some telepath probe Aqualad's mind to ensure he wasn't a traitor. But whatever. Artemis isn't really dead so I'm happy.

Does anyone know exactly when the next new episode airs?

And I hope they use Superboy's background (growing up in Cadmus with the mind-controlling genomorphs) as the main reason for Superboy's hating Miss Martian's abuse of power - particularly her using her power against him.

I'm ecstatic that Kaldur isn't bad. It would be so cliched and wouldn't suit his character at all. Now my concerns are no longer concerns.

Am I the only one that somewhat agrees with Miss Martians methods with villains? Yeah she abused the hell out of her powers when she used it on Superboy. Nobody can argue that but if you think about it what she does benefits the team while at the same time keeping the villains out of commission without breaking the "never kill" rule. Miss Martian just needs "moral correction and discipline" from an "authoritative figure" AKA Manhunter needs to go upside her head and teach her the right way to act.

@TheGremlin: It's still an invasion of privacy. You're still walking the thin line of killing villains for the sake of the good, villains have rights too and there are other methods to gaining information than forcibly obtaining it. If what you said was true, everybody would be taking lie detector tests in trial. People have rights, good or bad.

Regardless of what MM has done, I still love her. I know the way she used her powers was exactly you'd call moral but what other options were there?

Just to double check, I'm assuming Wally and Artemis were only let in on the secret just before that mission. I mean I saw it again and the interaction between KF and Artemis at the start shows that they genuinely wanted to leave the hero life behind and that Artemis was "needed".

So the whole AL was going undercover was really just a plan made by both Nightwing and Kaldur alone, and originally only the two of them knew about that plan. Cause that just makes the two YJ leaders seem more awesome to me.

@JohnnyGat said:

Just to double check, I'm assuming Wally and Artemis were only let in on the secret just before that mission. I mean I saw it again and the interaction between KF and Artemis at the start shows that they genuinely wanted to leave the hero life behind and that Artemis was "needed".

So the whole AL was going undercover was really just a plan made by both Nightwing and Kaldur alone, and originally only the two of them knew about that plan. Cause that just makes the two YJ leaders seem more awesome to me.

I could see that. And the Artemis thing was just to solidfy that he was a bad guy or was there a need to Kaldur to have backup?

@vernierhawk001 said:

@JohnnyGat said:

Just to double check, I'm assuming Wally and Artemis were only let in on the secret just before that mission. I mean I saw it again and the interaction between KF and Artemis at the start shows that they genuinely wanted to leave the hero life behind and that Artemis was "needed".

So the whole AL was going undercover was really just a plan made by both Nightwing and Kaldur alone, and originally only the two of them knew about that plan. Cause that just makes the two YJ leaders seem more awesome to me.

I could see that. And the Artemis thing was just to solidfy that he was a bad guy or was there a need to Kaldur to have backup?

I think Kaldur needed back up, I think from what I understand the deeper Kaldur gets the more things he needs to keep track off so he needs someone that can play a convincing bad person to help take in the information. The solidifying Kaldurs reputation just seems to be icing on the covert cake.

@Bestostero:

They should have lie detectors in trials. 99.9% correct is still better than what typically comes out. If Casey Anthony had taken a lie detector test she wouldn't be in hiding she would either be in jail (I think she did it) or openly recognized as a victim. MM can read minds that means she is 100% right everytime she strips the knowledge from someone dangerous. It's like in the JLU series when Doomsday got lobotomized. He was permanently stopped and he was still alive. You can say whatever you want dangerous villains should be taken down in a permanent fashion.