Dick and Kaldur

#1 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm just going to freewrite this:

Why does Kaldur alone get credit for foiling the Reach? The plan was his and Nightwing's, right? Isn't Nightwing responsible for the success as well?

Nightwing's had it rough this season. He's had to lie to his friends. Wally had the nerve to question his judgment. Meanwhile, the plan works out, but does Nightwing get a "I'm sorry for doubting you"? No.

Let's be fair: The Team overreacted when they found out about Kaldur's mole investigation in Season One. But they apologized to him. No one, not even Wally congratulated Dick.

Kaldur was a good leader. Let's not challenge that point. But what made Kaldur's leadership so special was his partnership with Dick. Dick was the one who vouched for Kaldur as leader. When Kaldur "died" in action, Dick stepped up to lead without hesitation. Kaldur wanted to leave the team afterwards for his "poor" leadership, and Dick still vouched for him. When Batman called a meeting to discuss the mole, Dick and Kaldur were side by side. The two of them complimented each other so well: Kaldur sticking by his team regardless of the intel, Dick logically reading the situation but standing by his mate. Those two were partners. All the credit going to Kaldur feels short-sighted.

It's easy to see why Kaldur considering leading to be a burden. Leading the Team forced him to make hard decisions that were sometimes unpopular. Worst comes worst, the Team could've died on his watch. Nightwing was afraid of all this and ending up like Batman. His worst fears almost came true, but it's hardly acknowledged by his Team. Kaldur was the only person to commend him.

It's funny: Nightwing started out Season 2 as leader. He didn't want to be leader, but he played along for the greater good. Jason's death probably spurred him on here. Season 2 ends with Dick having to deal with another loss and little credit for a job well done.

*shrugs*

Thoughts? Does anyone still think Nightwing was a poor leader? Was the scope of the show too big for a Saturday morning cartoon?

#2 Posted by nmiller1939 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a post I made on CBR when people were talking about how terrible Nightwing was as a leader. I feel like it sums up a lot of things:

And Dick's plans ultimately worked. There were complications, of course, but none due to his stupidity. Let's look at the cause and effect of the problems encountered:

Lagoon Boy was abducted? His own fault, ignored orders.

Mount Justice was blown up and more team members were abducted? Kaldur had to get the info on Lagann's location some how, and he only got in because Impulse acted stupidly and didn't contact Dick about their being attacked.

Miss Martian mindrapes Kaldur, hurting the mole plan? M'Gann's fault for being an idiot; Superboy's fault for not telling anyone; Kaldur, Dick, Artemis and Wally's fault for keeping it a secret from senior team members to begin with.

Green Beetle puts Blue on mode? Nightwing had him vetted, but didn't know that M'Gann (apparently the most powerful telepath ever) didn't actually do it.

Team captured on War World? Nobody realized BB had been put on mode

Aside from that, there were no problems. Everything went fairly well, actually. And Dick had the disadvantage of having little League support, and more autonomy. Kaldur got assignments from the League for the most part. Dick had to make his own plans and missions. Kaldur was definitely a better field leader than Dick, but we've never seen him have to deal with the more tactical problems that Dick had.

Ultimately, though, I'm glad he stepped down and is taking a break from the Team. Now that the invasion and mole operations are dealt with, a more classical field leader like Kaldur will excel more so than Dick would. And I don't really know what fallout there is to deal with. Aliens gone? Check. Light taken care of? Not entirely done, but it's been six years and they've been a problem the whole time. Seriously, what major problems does Kaldur have to deal with, other than explaining to the League what happened (though I didn't like how Bruce asked him and not Dick)? All their running operations and threats have been taken care of. The whole team has been through a lot lately, and if Dick feels he can handle it better by taking a break, that seems reasonable; people grieve differently. Some people, like Artemis or myself, dive into work. Some people need to just get away for a while.

#3 Posted by srk12 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

It is obvious from 'Summit' that the plan was not Nightwing's but Kaldur's. So he does deserve the credit. Plus, Nightwing hiding led to a lot of blunders and destruction and the plan owes its success mainly to Kaldur and Artemis. I don't see what there is for Nightwing to be congratulated. He was definitely not as impressive a leader as Kaldur was in season 1.

#4 Posted by BlackWind (7049 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing will get plenty of other chances to be awesome. I doubt Kaldur will ever be portrayed as this much of a boss again.

#5 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nmiller1939 said:

This is a post I made on CBR when people were talking about how terrible Nightwing was as a leader. I feel like it sums up a lot of things:

And Dick's plans ultimately worked. There were complications, of course, but none due to his stupidity. Let's look at the cause and effect of the problems encountered:

Lagoon Boy was abducted? His own fault, ignored orders.

Mount Justice was blown up and more team members were abducted? Kaldur had to get the info on Lagann's location some how, and he only got in because Impulse acted stupidly and didn't contact Dick about their being attacked.

Miss Martian mindrapes Kaldur, hurting the mole plan? M'Gann's fault for being an idiot; Superboy's fault for not telling anyone; Kaldur, Dick, Artemis and Wally's fault for keeping it a secret from senior team members to begin with.

Green Beetle puts Blue on mode? Nightwing had him vetted, but didn't know that M'Gann (apparently the most powerful telepath ever) didn't actually do it.

Team captured on War World? Nobody realized BB had been put on mode

Aside from that, there were no problems. Everything went fairly well, actually. And Dick had the disadvantage of having little League support, and more autonomy. Kaldur got assignments from the League for the most part. Dick had to make his own plans and missions. Kaldur was definitely a better field leader than Dick, but we've never seen him have to deal with the more tactical problems that Dick had.

Ultimately, though, I'm glad he stepped down and is taking a break from the Team. Now that the invasion and mole operations are dealt with, a more classical field leader like Kaldur will excel more so than Dick would. And I don't really know what fallout there is to deal with. Aliens gone? Check. Light taken care of? Not entirely done, but it's been six years and they've been a problem the whole time. Seriously, what major problems does Kaldur have to deal with, other than explaining to the League what happened (though I didn't like how Bruce asked him and not Dick)? All their running operations and threats have been taken care of. The whole team has been through a lot lately, and if Dick feels he can handle it better by taking a break, that seems reasonable; people grieve differently. Some people, like Artemis or myself, dive into work. Some people need to just get away for a while.

This isn't entirely accurate. We barely saw Nightwing play field leader. He was more of a mission coordinator, like Batman. "Depths" says as much. Unless future seasons say otherwise, Nightwing had more responsibility as leader than Kaldur.

@srk12 said:

It is obvious from 'Summit' that the plan was not Nightwing's but Kaldur's. So he does deserve the credit. Plus, Nightwing hiding led to a lot of blunders and destruction and the plan owes its success mainly to Kaldur and Artemis. I don't see what there is for Nightwing to be congratulated. He was definitely not as impressive a leader as Kaldur was in season 1.

Explain how "Summit" credits Kaldur as wholly responsible for the plan. As for Nightwing's blunders, I'll refer you to 's post above. Please read my response to his post.

#6 Posted by YoungJustice (6887 posts) - - Show Bio

In the end, Kaldur did take the most risk, he could have been found out the whole time, he would have been killed, no doubt, yet he chose to do the mission for the sake of the team. Also, Wally and Artemis were in retirement, it is only human for someone to get mad if their girlfriend/boyfriend was in a potentially fatal situation.

#7 Edited by Vitacura (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@srk12: It was Nightwing who called Artemis, it was Nightwing who got the charm to hide her, and I'm not sure how is obvious that it was Kaldur's idea, it was pretty clear that Wally blamed Dick for it. But sure, Kaldur got the big reveal, and the info and played his part esplendidly, but I'm not sure what else did he do... no wait, he blew up the mountain, pretty sure Nightwing didn't saw that one coming

#8 Posted by nmiller1939 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

@VampireSelektor said:

@nmiller1939 said:

This is a post I made on CBR when people were talking about how terrible Nightwing was as a leader. I feel like it sums up a lot of things:

And Dick's plans ultimately worked. There were complications, of course, but none due to his stupidity. Let's look at the cause and effect of the problems encountered:

Lagoon Boy was abducted? His own fault, ignored orders.

Mount Justice was blown up and more team members were abducted? Kaldur had to get the info on Lagann's location some how, and he only got in because Impulse acted stupidly and didn't contact Dick about their being attacked.

Miss Martian mindrapes Kaldur, hurting the mole plan? M'Gann's fault for being an idiot; Superboy's fault for not telling anyone; Kaldur, Dick, Artemis and Wally's fault for keeping it a secret from senior team members to begin with.

Green Beetle puts Blue on mode? Nightwing had him vetted, but didn't know that M'Gann (apparently the most powerful telepath ever) didn't actually do it.

Team captured on War World? Nobody realized BB had been put on mode

Aside from that, there were no problems. Everything went fairly well, actually. And Dick had the disadvantage of having little League support, and more autonomy. Kaldur got assignments from the League for the most part. Dick had to make his own plans and missions. Kaldur was definitely a better field leader than Dick, but we've never seen him have to deal with the more tactical problems that Dick had.

Ultimately, though, I'm glad he stepped down and is taking a break from the Team. Now that the invasion and mole operations are dealt with, a more classical field leader like Kaldur will excel more so than Dick would. And I don't really know what fallout there is to deal with. Aliens gone? Check. Light taken care of? Not entirely done, but it's been six years and they've been a problem the whole time. Seriously, what major problems does Kaldur have to deal with, other than explaining to the League what happened (though I didn't like how Bruce asked him and not Dick)? All their running operations and threats have been taken care of. The whole team has been through a lot lately, and if Dick feels he can handle it better by taking a break, that seems reasonable; people grieve differently. Some people, like Artemis or myself, dive into work. Some people need to just get away for a while.

This isn't entirely accurate. We barely saw Nightwing play field leader. He was more of a mission coordinator, like Batman. "Depths" says as much. Unless future seasons say otherwise, Nightwing had more responsibility as leader than Kaldur.

No, we didn't see him as a field leader, but the fact that he refrained from it is telling. Maybe he is just as good/better than Kaldur, but the fact that he didn't do it means that I have to assume Kaldur was better.

#9 Posted by srk12 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vitacura: Kaldur was the one who came up with the plan. I thought that was pretty strongly implied in 'Summit'. Also there is the fact that Nightwing and Wally congratulate him on his victory. Sure Nightwing got the charm and called Artemis, but that doesn't mean it was his plan. He could have just been executing Kaldur's plan. But that is beside the point. Nightwing himself was almost never in danger throughout the season. If it was his plan than I found it strange that he let everyone else face the danger while he sat monitoring progress.

#10 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

In the end, Kaldur did take the most risk, he could have been found out the whole time, he could have been killed, no doubt, yet he chose to do the mission for the sake of the team. Also, Wally and Artemis were in retirement, it is only human for someone to get mad if their girlfriend/boyfriend was in a potentially fatal situation.

1) True, Kaldur took the most risk. On the other hand, he was the one with the best chance of infiltrating the Light. No one would have believed Nightwing's betrayal. Even when Black Manta found out the truth, he still refused to kill his son. Your point's taken though.

2) It's also human to admit when you're wrong. Dick and Wally had been friends for years. Wally could've apologized for doubting Dick's judgment, just like Dick could've apologized for Wally's grief. Who knows, maybe this happened off-camera. Maybe the original three's reunion was that "more than words" reconciliation. A scene between Wally and Dick would've been nice, though. On the other hand, maybe that scene would've been like dangling a carrot for Wally's death:

"I'm sorry I doubted you"

"Friends till the end!"

*Wally fades away*

#11 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nmiller1939 said:

@VampireSelektor said:

@nmiller1939 said:

This is a post I made on CBR when people were talking about how terrible Nightwing was as a leader. I feel like it sums up a lot of things:

And Dick's plans ultimately worked. There were complications, of course, but none due to his stupidity. Let's look at the cause and effect of the problems encountered:

Lagoon Boy was abducted? His own fault, ignored orders.

Mount Justice was blown up and more team members were abducted? Kaldur had to get the info on Lagann's location some how, and he only got in because Impulse acted stupidly and didn't contact Dick about their being attacked.

Miss Martian mindrapes Kaldur, hurting the mole plan? M'Gann's fault for being an idiot; Superboy's fault for not telling anyone; Kaldur, Dick, Artemis and Wally's fault for keeping it a secret from senior team members to begin with.

Green Beetle puts Blue on mode? Nightwing had him vetted, but didn't know that M'Gann (apparently the most powerful telepath ever) didn't actually do it.

Team captured on War World? Nobody realized BB had been put on mode

Aside from that, there were no problems. Everything went fairly well, actually. And Dick had the disadvantage of having little League support, and more autonomy. Kaldur got assignments from the League for the most part. Dick had to make his own plans and missions. Kaldur was definitely a better field leader than Dick, but we've never seen him have to deal with the more tactical problems that Dick had.

Ultimately, though, I'm glad he stepped down and is taking a break from the Team. Now that the invasion and mole operations are dealt with, a more classical field leader like Kaldur will excel more so than Dick would. And I don't really know what fallout there is to deal with. Aliens gone? Check. Light taken care of? Not entirely done, but it's been six years and they've been a problem the whole time. Seriously, what major problems does Kaldur have to deal with, other than explaining to the League what happened (though I didn't like how Bruce asked him and not Dick)? All their running operations and threats have been taken care of. The whole team has been through a lot lately, and if Dick feels he can handle it better by taking a break, that seems reasonable; people grieve differently. Some people, like Artemis or myself, dive into work. Some people need to just get away for a while.

This isn't entirely accurate. We barely saw Nightwing play field leader. He was more of a mission coordinator, like Batman. "Depths" says as much. Unless future seasons say otherwise, Nightwing had more responsibility as leader than Kaldur.

No, we didn't see him as a field leader, but the fact that he refrained from it is telling. Maybe he is just as good/better than Kaldur, but the fact that he didn't do it means that I have to assume Kaldur was better.

We never saw how Kaldur fared with a bigger roster. Perhaps Nightwing was a field leader and Aqualad was mission coordinator before Season 2. Who knows how he and Dick handled it? It's hard to say.

#12 Posted by SUNMAN (7265 posts) - - Show Bio

First of all the show is over so we can't assume anything else happens, after the final ep.

Season 1, Kaldur was thrust to be leader, he had to deal with a lot of stuff. Unnecessary slack from his teammates, a possible mole, and 3 of the team keeping secrets. Still worked out.

We don't know who had the initial idea to go undercover, but it was Kaldur who took all the risk while feeding info to Nightwing. They both did not account for Ms. Martian going evil and mind raping people. Both are at fault but Dick shares more blame, he is around Ms. Martian and failed to notice it, all the while Kaldur is undercover, so its nice if the other guy who is taking absolutely no risk can try to help Kaldur out a little more and make sure the one person who can ruin everything doesn't.

Ultimately, Dick didn't do much this season. If ou want to give him partial credit with Kaldur thats fine, but ultimately Kaldur was doing all the leg work. He found out about BM being his dad and used that connection to infiltrate the Light. We aren't really given any moments where Dick shines as a leader. He gets duped by the Reach and is caught off guard a few times by certain scenarios. The writers don't really give Dick any good leadership moments in season 2, which is ironic cause season 1 they were clearly setting him up to be the ultimate leader.

Season 1, Dick is clearly the most tactically skilled member of the team and arguably a better strategist. But he's young and he doesn't take charge the way he should leaving guys to run around on their own (episode 4). By the end of the season we see him becoming a little more of a leader. But Nightwing's voice actor even commented about how he was destined to be the leader in an interview pre-season 2. The writers made it so blatant they essentially had Kaldur tell Nightwing he would be the leader till Nightwing was ready to take over cause he was born to do so. Dick had all the skills and the training. Than season 2 he became the leder when Kaldur stepped down, and the writers dropped the ball.

Is Dick the only one to blame for the mishaps in season 2, no Superboy and Ms. Martian both messed up big time at moments. But because Dick was the leader he still gets the blame for their screw ups that is what being a leader is about. So we can make excuses for Dick and some of them are good ones, but I can't say he was a god leader. He had to deal with a lot of problems but things ultimately worked out in the end. His biggest contribution this season was just getting info from Kaldur and playing along with the "Aqualad going evil ploy." Outside of that we didn't get much from.

The characters that shined this season:

Kaldur, Artemis, Blue Beetle, the Light and all the new heroes/characters.

Wally didn't really do much, and got killed off in a cliche matter. Clearly he was suppose to return in season 3.

Ms. Martian was involved in a lot of plot points this season. Weisman must like the character.

Superboy had a bunch of appearances didn't really do much.

Dick didn't have nearly as big a role as he did last season.

The cast probably got a little too big. They didn't develop/flush out the character the way they should have.

I thought JL/JLU and Avengers did a better job in that department

#13 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@srk12 said:

@Vitacura: Kaldur was the one who came up with the plan. I thought that was pretty strongly implied in 'Summit'. Also there is the fact that Nightwing and Wally congratulate him on his victory. Sure Nightwing got the charm and called Artemis, but that doesn't mean it was his plan. He could have just been executing Kaldur's plan. But that is beside the point. Nightwing himself was almost never in danger throughout the season. If it was his plan than I found it strange that he let everyone else face the danger while he sat monitoring progress.

1) Wally and Dick could've been congratulating Kaldur for maintaining his cover. He did have the most dangerous role in the game.

2) Again, it's hard to say how to Aqualad played leader with a bigger roster. A larger cast would demand tighter control, especially with mini-squads running concurrent missions. The leader would have to lie back and organize his teams. Besides, what if Nightwing was the field leader and Aqualad was the mission coordinator before Season 2? It's hard to say.

#14 Edited by Vitacura (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@srk12: Yeah I thought that they congratulated him for the big reveal and for getting everybody taking, that was very well done. He went he saw he conquered, I would have congratulated him too. But that doesn't mean it was his plan, he could have just been executing,also Nightwing congratulated the same way every team after every mission. (Sure you had this problem but you did this, good job team!)

Nobody would have believed that Nightwing or Robin was changing sides.He couldn't go and die in Artemis place either. And sure Nightwing wasn't in grat danger but he was the one responsible for everybody else safety, he clearly felt guilty.

It could be Kaldur's plan but I don't see it so strongly implied as you do.

#15 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4873 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree that Dick had it hard this season by the fans. I always saw people giving him **** about not being a good leader. If I could remember every episode vividly I would give my opinion, but I can't. I did however read the OP, and agree that they are great partners. (+)

#16 Edited by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

@SUNMAN said:

First of all the show is over so we can't assume anything else happens, after the final ep.

Season 1, Kaldur was thrust to be leader, he had to deal with a lot of stuff. Unnecessary slack from his teammates, a possible mole, and 3 of the team keeping secrets. Still worked out.

We don't know who had the initial idea to go undercover, but it was Kaldur who took all the risk while feeding info to Nightwing. They both did not account for Ms. Martian going evil and mind raping people. Both are at fault but Dick shares more blame, he is around Ms. Martian and failed to notice it, all the while Kaldur is undercover, so its nice if the other guy who is taking absolutely no risk can try to help Kaldur out a little more and make sure the one person who can ruin everything doesn't.

Ultimately, Dick didn't do much this season. If ou want to give him partial credit with Kaldur thats fine, but ultimately Kaldur was doing all the leg work. He found out about BM being his dad and used that connection to infiltrate the Light. We aren't really given any moments where Dick shines as a leader. He gets duped by the Reach and is caught off guard a few times by certain scenarios. The writers don't really give Dick any good leadership moments in season 2, which is ironic cause season 1 they were clearly setting him up to be the ultimate leader.

Season 1, Dick is clearly the most tactically skilled member of the team and arguably a better strategist. But he's young and he doesn't take charge the way he should leaving guys to run around on their own (episode 4). By the end of the season we see him becoming a little more of a leader. But Nightwing's voice actor even commented about how he was destined to be the leader in an interview pre-season 2. The writers made it so blatant they essentially had Kaldur tell Nightwing he would be the leader till Nightwing was ready to take over cause he was born to do so. Dick had all the skills and the training. Than season 2 he became the leder when Kaldur stepped down, and the writers dropped the ball.

Is Dick the only one to blame for the mishaps in season 2, no Superboy and Ms. Martian both messed up big time at moments. But because Dick was the leader he still gets the blame for their screw ups that is what being a leader is about. So we can make excuses for Dick and some of them are good ones, but I can't say he was a god leader. He had to deal with a lot of problems but things ultimately worked out in the end. His biggest contribution this season was just getting info from Kaldur and playing along with the "Aqualad going evil ploy." Outside of that we didn't get much from.

The characters that shined this season:

Kaldur, Artemis, Blue Beetle, the Light and all the new heroes/characters.

Wally didn't really do much, and got killed off in a cliche matter. Clearly he was suppose to return in season 3.

Ms. Martian was involved in a lot of plot points this season. Weisman must like the character.

Superboy had a bunch of appearances didn't really do much.

Dick didn't have nearly as big a role as he did last season.

The cast probably got a little too big. They didn't develop/flush out the character the way they should have.

I thought JL/JLU and Avengers did a better job in that department

1) The OP doesn't assume anything after the finale.

2) You're right, the writing suffered this season. The plot felt rushed. Maybe a longer season would've smoothed things out. A "Who is Jason Todd?" or "Dick and Kaldur Get Even" episode would've explained a lot. Did Nightwing realize Blue Beetle was compromised while watching the Reach's press conference? Or was he pissed off at the sheer nerve?

I can't qualify Nightwing's leadership for the same reason. I will point out that Nightwing led the Team without a second-in-command. points out Kaldur and Artemis were better choices for spying on the Light. A telepath of Miss M's caliber could've easily hid her doings from non-telepaths. Superboy could've also told Nightwing what was going on, but what's done is done.

Let's use Batman as an example. Batman's mentoring indirectly led to two deaths* and the abduction of a young girl . Is Batman a bad guardian, or are they responsible for their own actions? Do Nightwing and Red Robin count for anything?

*I know Stephanie Brown didn't actually die, but her "death" had the same impact.

#17 Posted by dicksihavestudied (35 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7761 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing does get credit.

#19 Posted by nmiller1939 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jnr6Lil: Pretty much exclusively from Aqualad. He was the go-to guy for telling off this season, and people (including Nightwing) congratulated Aqualad on a job well done, but no credit really went to Dick.

#20 Posted by jasontodd7 (109 posts) - - Show Bio

Aqualad gaved Nightwing some credit before taking leadership again.

The only reason nightwing fans are pissed is because of the fact that he didin't had a full episode.

He did some things you know, even in kaldur's cover.

He was smart, he kept all of his team alive and organized a huge team with manny new members to the point that things will work out without him babysitting them in every mission.

The fact that his leadearship role didin't arrive naturally and that he had kaldur's cover to protect outshined him a bit but the truth is that we only saw savage a few times this season, and still, he manage to find some way to win at the end. Compare this with Nightwing situation and you will see why he was a good leader.

#21 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by Vance Astro (91364 posts) - - Show Bio

Kaldur>Grayson.

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#23 Posted by VampireSelektor (749 posts) - - Show Bio

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