Young Scott going full-villain in the future ?

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#1 Edited by Avenger85 (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

I get the feeling after reading ANXM 10 that Young Scott might choose to go his own way, i.e. the Mystique way in the future, the way things went for him in this issue, in addition to Mystique's pep-talk.

Sure he called Beast out and all that, but he certainly seemed quite upset with BOTH the schools, and I can see him contemplating joining Mystique's group sometime in the future.

Regardless of all that, the guy is a real badass.

#2 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7202 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol.

#3 Posted by Avenger85 (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you still carrying your grudge against Bendis ?

Seriously, man. you should let it go. No need to hate the writer. Hate the horrible state of the franchise instead.

#4 Edited by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you still carrying your grudge against Bendis ?

Seriously, man. you should let it go. No need to hate the writer. Hate the horrible state of the franchise instead.

Actually, there's a tremendous need to hate the writer, since he's a mysoginistic, untalented, Nazi-loving piece of crap that has put his own favouritism above the Marvel universe and the fans. As soon as Bendis is dead or fired, the comic industry will be better for it.

Not blaming him is what's not needed.

#5 Edited by Avenger85 (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt said:

@avenger85 said:

Are you still carrying your grudge against Bendis ?

Seriously, man. you should let it go. No need to hate the writer. Hate the horrible state of the franchise instead.

Actually, there's a tremendous need to hate the writer, since he's a mysoginistic, untalented, Nazi-loving piece of crap that has put his own favouritism above the Marvel universe and the fans. As soon as Bendis is dead or fired, the comic industry will be better for it.

Not blaming him is what's not needed.

Mysoginistic ? Nazi-loving ? Untalented ? What the hell are you talking about lol.

Please elaborate.

And damn man, that's alot of hate lol.

#6 Edited by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt said:

@avenger85 said:

Are you still carrying your grudge against Bendis ?

Seriously, man. you should let it go. No need to hate the writer. Hate the horrible state of the franchise instead.

Actually, there's a tremendous need to hate the writer, since he's a mysoginistic, untalented, Nazi-loving piece of crap that has put his own favouritism above the Marvel universe and the fans. As soon as Bendis is dead or fired, the comic industry will be better for it.

Not blaming him is what's not needed.

Mysoginistic ? Nazi-loving ? Untalented ?

Please elaborate.

And damn man, that's alot of hate lol.

Misogynistic: He hates women. Women are written by Bendis in order to facilitate conversation or actions by male characters. Women that he claims to have written are usually just exposed to reprehensible depravity, usually in a sexual manner. Jessica Jones? Most issues of Alias involved her sitting on the toilet at some point and the defining point of her origin was her vile and deranged rape at the hands of the Purple Man.

Nazi-Loving: Guy hates the mentally ill. His stories always revolve around the mentally ill turning out to be raging psychotics with no soul who need to be annihilated in order to keep the world safe. See; Siege in particular. And then there's his generous treatment of gays, in that, they die.

Untalented: Every f*cking story he's ever written.

#7 Edited by Avenger85 (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt said:

@avenger85 said:

@fadetoblackbolt said:

@avenger85 said:

Are you still carrying your grudge against Bendis ?

Seriously, man. you should let it go. No need to hate the writer. Hate the horrible state of the franchise instead.

Actually, there's a tremendous need to hate the writer, since he's a mysoginistic, untalented, Nazi-loving piece of crap that has put his own favouritism above the Marvel universe and the fans. As soon as Bendis is dead or fired, the comic industry will be better for it.

Not blaming him is what's not needed.

Mysoginistic ? Nazi-loving ? Untalented ?

Please elaborate.

And damn man, that's alot of hate lol.

Misogynistic: He hates women. Women are written by Bendis in order to facilitate conversation or actions by male characters. Women that he claims to have written are usually just exposed to reprehensible depravity, usually in a sexual manner. Jessica Jones? Most issues of Alias involved her sitting on the toilet at some point and the defining point of her origin was her vile and deranged rape at the hands of the Purple Man.

Nazi-Loving: Guy hates the mentally ill. His stories always revolve around the mentally ill turning out to be raging psychotics with no soul who need to be annihilated in order to keep the world safe. See; Siege in particular. And then there's his generous treatment of gays, in that, they die.

Untalented: Every f*cking story he's ever written.

Dude, it's your opinion, I respect it, but I do feel that you're a bit too biased against him, just like AgeOfHurricane ( maybe not as much ). And being overdramatic. And I disagree.

No matter how badly you think he writes his stories, I do feel that the guy has been hitting the bullseye with ANXM & UXM.

#8 Edited by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenger85 said:

@fadetoblackbolt said:

@avenger85 said:

@fadetoblackbolt said:

@avenger85 said:

Are you still carrying your grudge against Bendis ?

Seriously, man. you should let it go. No need to hate the writer. Hate the horrible state of the franchise instead.

Actually, there's a tremendous need to hate the writer, since he's a mysoginistic, untalented, Nazi-loving piece of crap that has put his own favouritism above the Marvel universe and the fans. As soon as Bendis is dead or fired, the comic industry will be better for it.

Not blaming him is what's not needed.

Mysoginistic ? Nazi-loving ? Untalented ?

Please elaborate.

And damn man, that's alot of hate lol.

Misogynistic: He hates women. Women are written by Bendis in order to facilitate conversation or actions by male characters. Women that he claims to have written are usually just exposed to reprehensible depravity, usually in a sexual manner. Jessica Jones? Most issues of Alias involved her sitting on the toilet at some point and the defining point of her origin was her vile and deranged rape at the hands of the Purple Man.

Nazi-Loving: Guy hates the mentally ill. His stories always revolve around the mentally ill turning out to be raging psychotics with no soul who need to be annihilated in order to keep the world safe. See; Siege in particular. And then there's his generous treatment of gays, in that, they die.

Untalented: Every f*cking story he's ever written.

Dude, it's your opinion, I respect it, but I do feel that you're a bit too biased against him, just like AgeOfHurricane ( maybe not as much ). And being overdramatic. And I disagree.

No matter how badly you think he writes his stories, I do feel that the guy has been hitting the bullseye with ANXM & UXM.

Actually, the above isn't my opinion. He hates women and he hates people who aren't symbols of masculine perfection.

And have you ever, you know, read the X-Men before? If not, I can understand why you'd like his current work, since it is as in character and as respectful to continuity as a MAD Magazine parody. No wait, MAD would have more continuity references.

#9 Posted by X35 (5974 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt said:

@avenger85 said:

Are you still carrying your grudge against Bendis ?

Seriously, man. you should let it go. No need to hate the writer. Hate the horrible state of the franchise instead.

Actually, there's a tremendous need to hate the writer, since he's a mysoginistic, untalented, Nazi-loving piece of crap that has put his own favouritism above the Marvel universe and the fans. As soon as Bendis is dead or fired, the comic industry will be better for it.

Not blaming him is what's not needed.

Mysoginistic ? Nazi-loving ? Untalented ? What the hell are you talking about lol.

Yes, those are adjectives that he used.

#10 Posted by Avenger85 (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

So much hate.

But anyways, this thread was about wether Scott might turn into a villain after all he's seen & heard.

#11 Posted by Jg0587 (44 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see any indication whatsoever that young Scott will become a villain personally.

That's what fascinates me about comics, how everyone sees something different, we'll see what happens!

#12 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4518 posts) - - Show Bio

@jg0587 said:

I don't see any indication whatsoever that young Scott will become a villain personally.

That's what fascinates me about comics, how everyone sees something different, we'll see what happens!

agreed

#13 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt said:

Misogynistic: He hates women. Women are written by Bendis in order to facilitate conversation or actions by male characters. Women that he claims to have written are usually just exposed to reprehensible depravity, usually in a sexual manner. Jessica Jones? Most issues of Alias involved her sitting on the toilet at some point and the defining point of her origin was her vile and deranged rape at the hands of the Purple Man.

Nazi-Loving: Guy hates the mentally ill. His stories always revolve around the mentally ill turning out to be raging psychotics with no soul who need to be annihilated in order to keep the world safe. See; Siege in particular. And then there's his generous treatment of gays, in that, they die.

Untalented: Every f*cking story he's ever written.

Wow. I get that not everyone's into Bendis' writing style, but this is some scandalous conjecture. Libelous, even.

First, I really don't think it's fair to say he hates women just because he's written female characters having to deal with horrible situations. Women often do have to deal with this kind of crap, so why shouldn't that be reflected in comics? I think of Jessica Jones as a character who's consistently been well written under his pen. Alias was one story, and yes her origin is tragic, but he certainly didn't use that as an excuse to make her one dimensional or weak, and then she went on to be one of the most interesting and well fleshed out characters in New Avengers. And have you read his take on Aunt May in Ultimate Spiderman? It's arguably the best the character's ever been written. And those are just two examples, but still, misogynistic? I don't see that at all.

And Nazi-loving? I really can't see the guy who made Miles Morales Spiderman or Luke Cage into the main character of the Avengers being a Nazi.

As for presenting the mentally ill as psychotic (a mental illness), you speak like you've never read a story with a deranged super villain before. Mentally ill mutants being a threat has been a theme in marvel comics since at least the late 70's (I'm thinking Proteus here, but even Magneto would've been a candidate back then), because, here's the thing: the mentally ill can actually be a threat to themselves and others, that much is well documented through the entire history of psychology, so if they have super powers..? I suppose you could call it exploitative, maybe, but at least Bendis made Scarlet Witch and Sentry into victims of their illnesses, and not just some remorseless monsters.

As for being untalented, well, I'm not going to speak to that (as it's largely a matter of taste), but it doesn't really sound like you've actually read "Every f*cking story he's ever written". And, if you don't like his writing, there's no reason you should, but you might want to do a little more homework before publicly slandering the guy.

#14 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt said:

Misogynistic: He hates women. Women are written by Bendis in order to facilitate conversation or actions by male characters. Women that he claims to have written are usually just exposed to reprehensible depravity, usually in a sexual manner. Jessica Jones? Most issues of Alias involved her sitting on the toilet at some point and the defining point of her origin was her vile and deranged rape at the hands of the Purple Man.

Nazi-Loving: Guy hates the mentally ill. His stories always revolve around the mentally ill turning out to be raging psychotics with no soul who need to be annihilated in order to keep the world safe. See; Siege in particular. And then there's his generous treatment of gays, in that, they die.

Untalented: Every f*cking story he's ever written.

Wow. I get that not everyone's into Bendis' writing style, but this is some scandalous conjecture. Libelous, even.

First, I really don't think it's fair to say he hates women because he's written female characters having to deal with horrible situations. Women often do have to deal with this kind of crap, so why shouldn't that be reflected in comics. I think of Jessica Jones as a character who's consistently been well written under his pen. Alias was one story, and yes her origin is tragic, but he certainly didn't use that as an excuse to make her one dimensional or weak, and then she went on to be one of the most interesting and well fleshed out characters in New Avengers. And have you read his take on Aunt May in Ultimate Spiderman? It's arguably the best the character's ever been written. And those are just two examples, but still, misogynistic? I don't see that at all.

And Nazi-loving? I really can't see the guy who made Miles Morales Spiderman or Luke Cage into the main character of the Avengers being a Nazi.

As for presenting the mentally ill as psychotic (a mental illness), you speak like you've never read a story with a deranged super villain before. Mentally ill mutants being a threat has been a theme in marvel comics since at least the late 70's (I'm thinking Proteus here, but even Magneto would've been a candidate back then), because, here's the thing: the mentally ill can actually be a threat to themselves and others, that much is well documented through the entire history of psychology, so if they have super powers..? I suppose you could call it exploitative, maybe, but at least Bendis made Scarlet Witch and Sentry into victims of their illnesses, and not just some remorseless monsters.

As for being untalented, well, I'm not going to speak to that (as it's largely a matter of taste), but it doesn't really sound like you've actually read "Every f*cking story he's ever written". And, if you don't like his writing, there's no reason you should, but you might want to do a little more homework before publicly slandering the guy.

It's not libel if it's true.

And Jessica Jones is one of the most fleshed out characters in New Avengers proving what? That's she had more exposure than the other character he half-heartedly uses to fill yet another story about Iron Man, Wolverine and Spider-Man?

Oh yes, he made generic black man #1 into the star of Avengers and Miles Morales, the gay, black hispanic into Spider-Man. Doesn't seem like he's using broad brush strokes at all that only appeal to the ignorant.

Clearly you didn't read Siege or any of Dark Avengers, the Sentry was not a victim. He was portrayed as an unconscionable evil that had to be destroyed. Upon asking for his death, Thor told him that he would rightfully suffer for his crimes. Then he went psycho again and Thor killed him. Yeah, definitely a villain.

And I've said nothing about Bendis that he doesn't deserve. He's a guy who writes what he wants for himself and doesn't care about the characters or anyone else. He's a terrible person and not a writer's fingernail. I find the fact people defend him to be inexcusable.

#15 Edited by X35 (5974 posts) - - Show Bio

Gotta love people shallow enough to like Bendis who take it as an insult when they're forced to face reality.

#16 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not libel if it's true.

And Jessica Jones is one of the most fleshed out characters in New Avengers proving what? That's she had more exposure than the other character he half-heartedly uses to fill yet another story about Iron Man, Wolverine and Spider-Man?

Oh yes, he made generic black man #1 into the star of Avengers and Miles Morales, the gay, black hispanic into Spider-Man. Doesn't seem like he's using broad brush strokes at all that only appeal to the ignorant.

Clearly you didn't read Siege or any of Dark Avengers, the Sentry was not a victim. He was portrayed as an unconscionable evil that had to be destroyed. Upon asking for his death, Thor told him that he would rightfully suffer for his crimes. Then he went psycho again and Thor killed him. Yeah, definitely a villain.

And I've said nothing about Bendis that he doesn't deserve. He's a guy who writes what he wants for himself and doesn't care about the characters or anyone else. He's a terrible person and not a writer's fingernail. I find the fact people defend him to be inexcusable.

I don't know Bendis as a person (do you?), and I already said I'm not going to speak of his quality as a writer, I just think your previous criticisms of him were unfounded, that you're letting your distaste for his writing style cloud your reason, and you've yet to prove otherwise.

#17 Posted by CrimsonAlchemist (410 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: Your right there is an need to hate the writer they're likely responsible for atleast 80% of the story there are like a good handful of writers I hate like Remeder, or J.t Krull probably being the top but you don't see me calling them a Nazi I will never understand why people enjoy their garbage but wishing a person death over fiction is going a bit too far. Bet you feel better venting out your feelings though,

#18 Posted by TDK_1997 (13729 posts) - - Show Bio

Well whatever happens with him I don't care.I really think that all of this should have never happened.The book is nothing good and it is just a normal Bendis book.

#19 Edited by Akindoodle (871 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: Oh yes, he made generic black man #1 into the star of Avengers and Miles Morales, the gay, black hispanic into Spider-Man. Doesn't seem like he's using broad brush strokes at all that only appeal to the ignorant.

Hey, not to take this thread out of context but I haven't read Ultimate Spider-man in a while. Is Miles really gay? Or are you just saying that because using it as slander isn't something anyone should do. But really, is he gay?

Oh and in response to the actual topic, I'd like to see Young Scott stick with the school for a while longer, see if he can change others' views of him. But if he doesn't stay with either school, I'm fine as long as he's interesting. I'm not really familiar with the character but in AvX (I know, horrible example) he came off as a real jerk and I disliked him intensely. I do kinda like young Scott though

#20 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you still carrying your grudge against Bendis ?

Seriously, man. you should let it go. No need to hate the writer. Hate the horrible state of the franchise instead.

I think Age of Hurricane is just trolling. Just ignore her and her pitiful "Lol" retorts.

#21 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, I do not see young scott becoming a full villain.

#22 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2467 posts) - - Show Bio

you guys are scaring me about bendis, sure he was responsible for avx cr4p but still.marvel loves him like hes the next big thing

#23 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

Gotta love people shallow enough to like Bendis who take it as an insult when they're forced to face reality.

I don't think it's shallow to be offended by someone calling a Jewish man that they don't know a "Nazi lover" because they don't like how he writes comic books.

I'm all for criticality and people tearing into bad writing where they see it, but that's way beyond.

It's ignorant and offensive.

#24 Posted by CerealKiller (161 posts) - - Show Bio

I think young scotts definitely going to do something unexpected. He's always done what he thinks is best and made his own decisions, even as an adult. he seems unhappy (or at least unsettled) in the jean grey school with wolverine and beast and stuff, so i think maybe leaving to do something like join mystique could actually happen! and with someone going off to the uncanny team it'll be like the whole 05 will be split up! Very interesting to read about. Ah, this comic has me guessing so much and it makes it so exciting to read every month!

and so much bendis hate...i follow him on tumblr and he seems like a nice guy. and i like the two x-books at the moment. I think he's doing a good job : )

#25 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3274 posts) - - Show Bio

I only like Bendis' work on street level heroes. He misses the mark with many superpowered characters to me and I don't find his vision that interesting on the X-Men. The X-Men's problems seem to have multiplied since he became one of the main writers, and they still seem to have no direction with many of the characters going completely undeveloped.

That said, I don't think Cyclops is going to become a villain. A lot of current readers have not read the original series via re-prints, but Scott actually put in a lot of work to become a good leader and was the X-Man who successfully developed training programs for basically every major member. He put the work in and always had a critical approach to his work. I see him opening his own school because he's young enough to realize that none of the visions being offered will do any good.

#26 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7202 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29 said:

@avenger85 said:

Are you still carrying your grudge against Bendis ?

Seriously, man. you should let it go. No need to hate the writer. Hate the horrible state of the franchise instead.

I think Age of Hurricane is just trolling. Just ignore her and her pitiful "Lol" retorts.

Lol.

If i was trolling, you'd know it.

Not that i need to stress how much of a hack Bendis is, but i will regardless. Alas you've finally gotten my attention, so shoo.

#27 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

Doubt it, Young Scott seemed genuinely unhappy with Adult Cyke's current direction.

#28 Posted by Tohoma (1191 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: Oh yes, he made generic black man #1 into the star of Avengers and Miles Morales, the gay, black hispanic into Spider-Man. Doesn't seem like he's using broad brush strokes at all that only appeal to the ignorant.

Hey, not to take this thread out of context but I haven't read Ultimate Spider-man in a while. Is Miles really gay? Or are you just saying that because using it as slander isn't something anyone should do. But really, is he gay?

Oh and in response to the actual topic, I'd like to see Young Scott stick with the school for a while longer, see if he can change others' views of him. But if he doesn't stay with either school, I'm fine as long as he's interesting. I'm not really familiar with the character but in AvX (I know, horrible example) he came off as a real jerk and I disliked him intensely. I do kinda like young Scott though

Miles Morales is not gay. Marvel has confirmed this. In fact I feel as if they have given subtle hints of a lfemale love interest for him.

Source:http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/20735.html

#29 Edited by X35 (5974 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

Gotta love people shallow enough to like Bendis who take it as an insult when they're forced to face reality.

I don't think it's shallow to be offended by someone calling a Jewish man that they don't know a "Nazi lover" because they don't like how he writes comic books.

I'm all for criticality and people tearing into bad writing where they see it, but that's way beyond.

It's ignorant and offensive.

Cute. Ignoring everything else and focusing on only one very specific part of something is exactly what Bendis does too.

#30 Edited by fodigg (6094 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol at the ridiculous Bendis hate going on up ins hurr. By all means, point out that he's written some badly plotted stories and cashed in on victimization of females or dealt ham-fistedly with the issue of mental illness, but he is far from an aberration in the world of comic books in that regard. No need to impugn his morality for such failings as a writer.

If you're going to hate on Bendis, do it for his reasonable failings, like his repetitive dialogue, the saturation of his voice in the market (especially with all the events), the fact that Secret Invasion, Siege, and AvX were terrible, the fact that he writes his own version of each character and damn past characterization, but calling him a Nazi? You lose that argument before you even start.

#31 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

Cute. Ignoring everything else and focusing on only one very specific part of something is exactly what Bendis does too.

I'm not trying to justify Bendis' writing style, and I never was. I only pointed out how statements made above were incorrect and offensive. I'm not really seeing what you're point is here.

#32 Edited by Akindoodle (871 posts) - - Show Bio

@tohoma: Okay. Thanks just read the article

#33 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: There is an old adage of taking a horse to water and its desire to drink.

@avenger85: Aren't you the center of attention with your threads of late? To answer your question I think it will likely go one of two ways. Either young Scott will ultimately rebel against everyone or he will become a villian, become mind wiped by Prof X. then remember modern day and go full blown Scottie-Neeto.

#34 Posted by Avenger85 (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: lol man, Being the center of attention is not something I would want or have asked for, but yeah, I do agree completely with your prediction on what might happen. i.e. the rebelling against everyone part.

But for him to go full-blown Scottie-Neeto, nah I think that is way too much even for him.

#35 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: There is an old adage of taking a horse to water and its desire to drink.

yeah, I know. it doesn't bug me any less, but that's just my problem, I guess.

@chasereis: lol man, Being the center of attention is not something I would want or have asked for, but yeah, I do agree completely with your prediction on what might happen. i.e. the rebelling against everyone part.

But for him to go full-blown Scottie-Neeto, nah I think that is way too much even for him.

at this point in his development, Cyclops was still very much a follower. But now that he seems so disillusioned by both his new perspective and his options of whom to follow, it does make me wonder if his arc might start to resemble that of someone like, say, Cannonball.. him going full on villain seems like the least likely thing for him to do, to me.

#36 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: That is "true", I suppose. Although in Scott's case he really worked best as the right hand of Xavier. Honestly my number one issue is something I call controversial expenditure. Example: Scott had always been the follower of Xavier's dream, when he had his little mid life/wife crisis he burned that bridge, and like the old adage "you can never go home again". Even if he did it wouldn't be the same . I personally wish the X universe was a more lavish background where different characters are moved in and out, more like real life instead of just changing every person fundamentally sacrificing true realism on the altar of "characterization". Take Cannonball as an example, what a waste he was young, join X-Force and did his little teenage rebellion, then finally was excepted as a real X-Man then everything imploded from there. Why because western writers are too nostalgic keeping venerated (and essentially completed) characters on a team book. They need to learn to let go.

#37 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: I can't really disagree with your sentiment here, Chase'.

Although I think Cyclops himself is a good example of how, if characters are going to be kept around, they should change and grow based on their stories. Cannonball has barely done that in the last 20 years, and I do think it's largely due to the reasons you've said.

#38 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I guess my point truly boils down to is the concept introduced to me during the brood saga and in Uncanny Annual 10. I wanted the new mutants to take over BEING the X-Men. That was their WHOLE point of existence, not to teach them to use their powers, which honestly was a side effect or proxy action. That why character creation is so VERY important. Marvel doesn't do that anymore. Hell, they PAID Liefeld to character design like a hundred people for them prior to leaving to Image. Characters need to be either one of two things. The first is a character who, out of the box, is interesting and has an immediate appeal but could wind down in 10-15 years worth of a monthly title. The second is have a sucky character with an interesting angle that is meant to be built into a very interesting character by, say, the 25 issue. However that being said EVERY character should have a "life span" if you will a quasi-defined space which they are the spotlight players, the Dramatis Personae (if you are real X-Men fan you will understand the coining of that phrase). After their story lines are over and they have exhausted the vast majority of potential they should be killed permanently (hopefully in a meaningful way) or given to a real life "ending" (i.e. grow up, become a hermit, something...). Characterization is not tolerating the same main characters for 50 years nor is amputating or creating some artificial catharsis that ignores established continuity or vapid unused or dangling story lines that are best left forgotten.

#39 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: I do agree with what you mean, and I do agree that characters like Cannonball should've replaced some of the previously established characters by now (or even long ago), but between the fact that comic book characters age much slower than actual people, and that some characters whole life-spans will always be intrinsically tied to the story of the X-men (like Xavier, Magneto, Cyclops, Moira, and many of the characters who are essentially immortal), I think that there are some characters who would only fade out of the story by dying.

With Xavier, Moira, Banshee, Nightcrawler, Destiny and so many others already gone, I'm in no rush to see the rest of the old guard completely fade away. I just want to see the ones who are left continue to change and grow.

#40 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7202 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: I do agree with what you mean, and I do agree that characters like Cannonball should've replaced some of the previously established characters by now (or even long ago), but between the fact that comic book characters age much slower than actual people, and that some characters whole life-spans will always be intrinsically tied to the story of the X-men (like Xavier, Magneto, Cyclops, Moira, and many of the characters who are essentially immortal), I think that there are some characters who would only fade out of the story by dying.

With Xavier, Moira, Banshee, Nightcrawler, Destiny and so many others already gone, I'm in no rush to see the rest of the old guard completely fade away. I just want to see the ones who are left continue to change and grow.

Lol.They've done enough changing and growing. If this "changing" and "growing"'s still around by the time i'm in my 30s, we'll have an overly stale franchise. Sure, they can stick around, but the damn thing has been revolving around them for years now, obviously they've raked in millions of fans worldwide as well as millions of dollars for Marvel. But it's going to get boring, in fact, it already has.

Here i though MN would pave way for a series revolving around the younger generation, but no. We still have writers focusing the same old stories on the same old characters but i'm thankful that Brian Wood has taken the Claremont initiative in that there are younger, established, characters around, ripe for development.

#41 Posted by papad1992 (6815 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

@chasereis: I do agree with what you mean, and I do agree that characters like Cannonball should've replaced some of the previously established characters by now (or even long ago), but between the fact that comic book characters age much slower than actual people, and that some characters whole life-spans will always be intrinsically tied to the story of the X-men (like Xavier, Magneto, Cyclops, Moira, and many of the characters who are essentially immortal), I think that there are some characters who would only fade out of the story by dying.

With Xavier, Moira, Banshee, Nightcrawler, Destiny and so many others already gone, I'm in no rush to see the rest of the old guard completely fade away. I just want to see the ones who are left continue to change and grow.

Lol.They've done enough changing and growing. If this "changing" and "growing"'s still around by the time i'm in my 30s, we'll have an overly stale franchise. Sure, they can stick around, but the damn thing has been revolving around them for years now, obviously they've raked in millions of fans worldwide as well as millions of dollars for Marvel. But it's going to get boring, in fact, it already has.

Here i though MN would pave way for a series revolving around the younger generation, but no. We still have writers focusing the same old stories on the same old characters but i'm thankful that Brian Wood has taken the Claremont initiative in that there are younger, established, characters around, ripe for development.

That's why I'm still wanting a New X-Men series to return! That was one of the best early 2000s books out there at the time!

#42 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

Here i though MN would pave way for a series revolving around the younger generation, but no. We still have writers focusing the same old stories on the same old characters but i'm thankful that Brian Wood has taken the Claremont initiative in that there are younger, established, characters around, ripe for development.

That's why I'm still wanting a New X-Men series to return! That was one of the best early 2000s books out there at the time!

I want both of these things also.

#43 Posted by DarkDay (492 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

@chasereis: I do agree with what you mean, and I do agree that characters like Cannonball should've replaced some of the previously established characters by now (or even long ago), but between the fact that comic book characters age much slower than actual people, and that some characters whole life-spans will always be intrinsically tied to the story of the X-men (like Xavier, Magneto, Cyclops, Moira, and many of the characters who are essentially immortal), I think that there are some characters who would only fade out of the story by dying.

With Xavier, Moira, Banshee, Nightcrawler, Destiny and so many others already gone, I'm in no rush to see the rest of the old guard completely fade away. I just want to see the ones who are left continue to change and grow.

Lol.They've done enough changing and growing. If this "changing" and "growing"'s still around by the time i'm in my 30s, we'll have an overly stale franchise. Sure, they can stick around, but the damn thing has been revolving around them for years now, obviously they've raked in millions of fans worldwide as well as millions of dollars for Marvel. But it's going to get boring, in fact, it already has.

Here i though MN would pave way for a series revolving around the younger generation, but no. We still have writers focusing the same old stories on the same old characters but i'm thankful that Brian Wood has taken the Claremont initiative in that there are younger, established, characters around, ripe for development.

The thing is that I don't think that is necessarily true. Oh, can it happen? Sure, it does, has, and continues to happen. But the "changing" and "growing" that you're referencing, I'd ask how much of it was really growth? And of the change how much of it was particularly original? If writers keep slapping the same tropes on things then re-wrapping it and calling it "All New" or "All Different" then of course things are going to get stale. But even if a character has been around ages the complexity of human thought and reactions means that there is always something new to see and do when you change up stimuli and explore motivations or even create new motivations.

In a sense I agree with both chasereis and oldnightcrawler. I think Marvel should have a little courage and try things a'la chasereis's point of view but I also think that nightcrawler is right in that characterization is never really over. The problem with the second point of view however comes about when we simply keep characters around for the sake of them being there. Or change for the sake of change. Honestly I find these to be signs of bad writing or if not bad then at least colossal unoriginality. In a perfect world we could just rotate a pool of writers and characters indefinitely (seeding or retiring each as needed) and honestly I think a lot of those stories would be rather good seeing as shifting your focus as a writer sometimes leads to your best ideas but this isn't a perfect world and comics is as much about the business aspect of things as anything actually located between pages.

So you give people what they want and there are as many people whom like mindless action flicks as those that like a deep cerebral character driven drama.

#44 Edited by MadeinBangladesh (5012 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont Know. Bendis does have something clever planned for him I bet. He might go full villian and join Mystique. He could go and fall in love with Emma Frost again.

#45 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkday said:

The thing is that I don't think that is necessarily true. Oh, can it happen? Sure, it does, has, and continues to happen. But the "changing" and "growing" that you're referencing, I'd ask how much of it was really growth? And of the change how much of it was particularly original? If writers keep slapping the same tropes on things then re-wrapping it and calling it "All New" or "All Different" then of course things are going to get stale. But even if a character has been around ages the complexity of human thought and reactions means that there is always something new to see and do when you change up stimuli and explore motivations or even create new motivations.

In a sense I agree with both chasereis and oldnightcrawler. I think Marvel should have a little courage and try things a'la chasereis's point of view but I also think that nightcrawler is right in that characterization is never really over. The problem with the second point of view however comes about when we simply keep characters around for the sake of them being there. Or change for the sake of change. Honestly I find these to be signs of bad writing or if not bad then at least colossal unoriginality. In a perfect world we could just rotate a pool of writers and characters indefinitely (seeding or retiring each as needed) and honestly I think a lot of those stories would be rather good seeing as shifting your focus as a writer sometimes leads to your best ideas but this isn't a perfect world and comics is as much about the business aspect of things as anything actually located between pages.

So you give people what they want and there are as many people whom like mindless action flicks as those that like a deep cerebral character driven drama.

me too.

I actually think you're talking about 'Hurricane, and not Chase', but still, me too.

And I totally agree with your assessment of why this happens. People put Claremont's "classic" 13 year run, for example, up on such a crazy pedestal that they won't even let themselves see that the last 4 or 5 years of it really weren't all that great. Sure, he left on a high note, but prior to that it often felt like he was just changing things for the sake of changing them. I'm sure a lot of that can be blamed on editorial, but very few of the changes felt very organic. Or Peter David's X-factor; nobody wants to hear it because his run was so good for so long, but it hasn't been that great in a while.

Some characters would probably better serve the story by retiring or moving on or whatever, but just as often (if not more), it could be said that maybe the creators should do the same. It's basically impossible to tell which is the case without hindsight, but characters are just ideas, and ideas can always benefit from a fresh perspective.

Right now we're getting some writers getting a fresh start on the X-men, and, as always, there are some growing pains that go along with that, but I like what Bendis and Wood have done so far, hell, I'm even starting to warm up to Aaron's book, so I'm excited to ride this next bit out and see what they do before I get too critical about it.

#46 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7202 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkday said:

@ageofhurricane said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

@chasereis: I do agree with what you mean, and I do agree that characters like Cannonball should've replaced some of the previously established characters by now (or even long ago), but between the fact that comic book characters age much slower than actual people, and that some characters whole life-spans will always be intrinsically tied to the story of the X-men (like Xavier, Magneto, Cyclops, Moira, and many of the characters who are essentially immortal), I think that there are some characters who would only fade out of the story by dying.

With Xavier, Moira, Banshee, Nightcrawler, Destiny and so many others already gone, I'm in no rush to see the rest of the old guard completely fade away. I just want to see the ones who are left continue to change and grow.

Lol.They've done enough changing and growing. If this "changing" and "growing"'s still around by the time i'm in my 30s, we'll have an overly stale franchise. Sure, they can stick around, but the damn thing has been revolving around them for years now, obviously they've raked in millions of fans worldwide as well as millions of dollars for Marvel. But it's going to get boring, in fact, it already has.

Here i though MN would pave way for a series revolving around the younger generation, but no. We still have writers focusing the same old stories on the same old characters but i'm thankful that Brian Wood has taken the Claremont initiative in that there are younger, established, characters around, ripe for development.

The thing is that I don't think that is necessarily true. Oh, can it happen? Sure, it does, has, and continues to happen. But the "changing" and "growing" that you're referencing, I'd ask how much of it was really growth? And of the change how much of it was particularly original? If writers keep slapping the same tropes on things then re-wrapping it and calling it "All New" or "All Different" then of course things are going to get stale. But even if a character has been around ages the complexity of human thought and reactions means that there is always something new to see and do when you change up stimuli and explore motivations or even create new motivations.

In a sense I agree with both chasereis and oldnightcrawler. I think Marvel should have a little courage and try things a'la chasereis's point of view but I also think that nightcrawler is right in that characterization is never really over. The problem with the second point of view however comes about when we simply keep characters around for the sake of them being there. Or change for the sake of change. Honestly I find these to be signs of bad writing or if not bad then at least colossal unoriginality. In a perfect world we could just rotate a pool of writers and characters indefinitely (seeding or retiring each as needed) and honestly I think a lot of those stories would be rather good seeing as shifting your focus as a writer sometimes leads to your best ideas but this isn't a perfect world and comics is as much about the business aspect of things as anything actually located between pages.

So you give people what they want and there are as many people whom like mindless action flicks as those that like a deep cerebral character driven drama.

Quite a lot of it. I'd say some of this stopped, though, when Fraction took a hold of the X-Titles and decided to erect Utopia and have Magneto make a fool of himself. Everything during that particular era for all characters involved reaped nothing of substance. It was a perfectly clear example of overused X-Men following the leader in times of desperate need, trying to gather some resources for their destitute kind. Boring story, unoriginal and cliched premise, and the majority of characters from that era could have died and i wouldn't have cared. A new motivation/stimuli indeed, but no.

Wolverine's a nice example of a character who's been around forever, but sadly needs to go. The very thought of his still being in existence annoys me. He has bloody done it all, how Marvel still manages to create these stories centered around him boggles my mind. The recent endeavors in his titles exude with so much "i'm writing this cause i got contracted to, and yeh" all over them, it doesn't look like any of the stories told these days anyways, are from the heart. Aaron looks like he writes because he's bored or because Marvel hired him. Most of Wolverine's stories consist of either: himself and Sabretooth fighting for only heaven knows what, himself and some other already used villain fighting for only heaven knows what, himself trying to develop a love interest that'll go nowhere, for only heaven knows what as it's been done before, and etc. There's nothing compelling even though the stimulus has been changed back to the same old.

Cause it's the same people in the same old situations.

Right in that characterization never truly is over unless said character dies, but quite recently, i've seen a lot of different stimuli, and i feel nothing. I'm ready for the new blood to come in an take over, which is why i'm happy that we have Avengers Arena and Young Avengers, at least the kids on that side get attention. But the young generation over here are getting the shaft. I wouldn't mind if Bendis was focusing his story on younger, already established, obscure characters that were ripe for development, but no, same character. Same stories. It is, in and of itself, change for the sake of change, and bad change.

Indeed there are.

#47 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane: you ought to know that I'm not a fan of Fraction or Aaron's X-men, but I think this still really comes back to blaming the characters for the faults of the writers (/editorial).

Yeah, like a lot of great characters, Wolverine (to use your example) has been poorly written and generally overused, but I still don't think that's a flaw inherent to the character. And you know as well as anyone that he always will be around, so holding that against the character is just bound to make one resentful and dismissive of the good stories he could actually be in, I'd imagine.

The issue isn't really should the most popular and recognizable characters just go away, we all know that just isn't going to happen (at least with the X-men, a lot of these characters could be virtually immortal, a sub-theme of them being more evolved that doesn't seem to get explored much), the issue is really, how can writers best deal with that?

As you've already illustrated, the simplest answer -that if writers don't actually have a story that needs that character they shouldn't bother writing them into it- still doesn't negate the fact that some writers will write these characters because that's their job. It's part of the job description. I think smart writers in this position will try to use that character in a more subtle way. During Whedon's run, for example, the Wolverine is used primarily as comic relief, save for his relationship with Armor; as I'm sure you'll agree, that relationship is nothing new for his character, but, partially because of that, it effects how we get to know Armor and becomes something we like about her story. He provides a context and a history to her story, and without doing anything new for him (though he is pretty well written in this case, which helps), he's still helping move the story along.

Maybe you don't think this is the best use for him; as you've already pointed out, you think he's outlived his usefulness as a character, so let me put it this way: say Marvel gave you the job of creating a new X-men book; you get to set the tone, the mandate, all that, and you've even got free reign to use any characters you want... with the only exception being that you have to have the Wolverine in every issue (which wouldn't even be a downside for most writers, simply because he's so popular). For most X-men fans, this would be a dream job; what would you do?

If I had to guess, I bet you'd put Storm and Psylocke in charge of a new XSE based out of the outback, with all the Young/New X-men as field agents, and once an issue have a page that starts "meanwhile, back at the nearly empty Jean Grey school for troubled teens, Headmaster Logan is once again drinking himself into a self-pitying stupor..", or, y'know, whatever. But, seriously, what would you do in that position?

Some characters just aren't going away, and that doesn't mean that there isn't room for new ones, or new ideas, or new perspectives, or new stories. (Hell, some characters are around as long as the X-men have been before they ever even get good). I just feel like instead of bemoaning these character's existence, we'd be better served thinking of more interesting ways to use them. Or just stop reading about them altogether.

#48 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7202 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Yes, it does, which was more or less what i did.

No it's not. If Wolverine were actually written well and of good use in these stories, i wouldn't mind, but that's not what i'm getting. I'm getting a cash-cow with several different POVs and several different moral standards. One who's continuity just does not match at all, as he's in his own self-contained story every other title, but still managing to appear, and i'll see a writer say that they're having a hard time bringing in "Chamber", when he's doing jack. So yeah. He should go.

And that wasn't the point i was trying to make, read my earlier posts, it was for them to back down a bit and to give way, not entirely, for the younger generation. There's no point of them being just there if nothing of consequence is going to happen.

It may be their job, but it's certainly not a legal mandate. That was some nice use and what i was trying to get across. Armor's a fave character of mine and i do thank Whedon for introducing her, as Wolverine's bud, the way he did, and that's what i'm talking about. That Wolverine issue for example, a one-shot of an adventure himself and Elixir had before Necrosha, that was flipping great, because Elixir received substantial character development and it wasn't just Wolverine vs villain something, it was different, for once. It wasn't a typical trope. I'd like to see more of this from his series, but no, that's a little too much to ask. And from his series, you'd think Wolverine was no longer heavily involved in the X-Verse. Ironically, right after that issue, it was an arc revolving around Wolverine and Sabretooth. Boring.

It's a nice use, but he's not being used like that, is he ? He's nothing more than a treacherous hypocrite at this point in time, something that is the fault of the writers and not the characters themselves, but that's the way it jingles. When i see Wolverine these days, i see a marketing wh*re, his "character" has long since been stripped away from him, something that could be said for plenty other characters, due to overexposure.

Sadly you don't know me as well as you think, and that scenario's well off. For one it'd strictly revolve around the next generation, excluding Aaron and Bendis' creation because they have no place. It'd focus on removing the "new" and "young" schema from the next generation and have them fully establish themselves as actual X-Men, time-line would start from the end of Utopia, from Prodigy's POV, Hope feels extremely guilty for everything that's happened, and David resents Scott, as well as the Avengers, for their actions--there was a question that Asmus received during his time on Gen. Hope and it was in regards to what would happen if Hope ever laid her hands on a depowered mutant as opposed to just one who was just coming into bloom--sadly that wasn't explored because Editorial though it'd be a better idea to bring in Sebastian Shaw--but i'd have that happen to Prodigy, he'd regain everything--Sofia around the same time would get her powers back through some other means--it'd deal with personal problems within the characters themselves (Surge, Dust, Hellion, Trance, Match, Rockslide, Anole, mainly) before throwing in the arbitrary villain. I'd have Wolverine cameo for each scene set at the school. One tiny panel. No dialogue whatsoever. He'd just be there, or sometimes he'd be on a mission. I won't elaborate further, but Dani would find her way into its pages within the first arc. Re-establishing her relationships with these kids.

Not that it can't happen, but if i'm going to be receiving the same characters regardless of what happens, i don't see the bloody point of creating new ones for the sake of creating news ones, when there are already NEW characters rotting in the background. It makes. No. Sense. Tempus and Triage are good examples of this, both are bloody knockoffs and both serve no substantial purpose other than nothing. We could think of new ways to better use their appearances, but fan-fics don't become reality, writers are in charge and they'll do what they want, currently, a vast majority like shoving Wolverine down the majority's throats, willingly or unwillingly. But it's not a matter of "not reading it altogether", this is becoming a common one-liner for you, personally, when it shouldn't. You shouldn't make a habit of telling people to "not read it altogether" when they don't like the direction in which things are going, because change is always possible. Especially for a franchise you care about.

But like that guy stated above, it's a corporation. Money's the only thing that matters these days.

#49 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

It's a nice use, but he's not being used like that, is he ? He's nothing more than a treacherous hypocrite at this point in time, something that is the fault of the writers and not the characters themselves, but that's the way it jingles. When i see Wolverine these days, i see a marketing wh*re, his "character" has long since been stripped away from him, something that could be said for plenty other characters, due to overexposure.

yeah, that is one way of looking at it, and I don't disagree with that assessment, really. From that perspective, you could say his character has been "stripped" from him, in the sense that multiple interpretations of the character make it impossible to tell what a character is actually supposed to be, be about, or do. But I think the main difference between most interpretations of the character really come down to style, of both the writer and the story, and personally, I'd rather more choices than less. I like Claremont's Wolverine, I like Whedon's, I like early 90's interpretations of the character, but they aren't all the same. Obviously there are some stories with him that I think he is poorly written, but I guess those don't bother me as much as they seem to bother you. Not everything's for everyone, and at this point, I don't even think it's meant to or should be. I read 3 or 4 books with Wolverine in them, and I don't bother with all the others he's in. Are there other characters I'm more interested in who I don't even get the option of? yeah, but I don't see that as his fault.

Also, he is sort of being used the way Whedon used him currently, just not as well, in that (with issues 25 and 27 of WatX-men) Aaron has actually started to use him in the role of being a teacher again. It's not as good as the examples you've given of this, but I'm willing to admit that the difference is largely one of style, and that I've yet to have any attachment to many of the new characters. Whether I stick it out with this book or not, I do think it's a good role for him, and it certainly interests me more than seeing him as a regular in X-men or Uncanny X-men.

Sadly you don't know me as well as you think, and that scenario's well off. For one it'd strictly revolve around the next generation, excluding Aaron and Bendis' creation because they have no place. It'd focus on removing the "new" and "young" schema from the next generation and have them fully establish themselves as actual X-Men, time-line would start from the end of Utopia, from Prodigy's POV, Hope feels extremely guilty for everything that's happened, and David resents Scott, as well as the Avengers, for their actions--there was a question that Asmus received during his time on Gen. Hope and it was in regards to what would happen if Hope ever laid her hands on a depowered mutant as opposed to just one who was just coming into bloom--sadly that wasn't explored because Editorial though it'd be a better idea to bring in Sebastian Shaw--but i'd have that happen to Prodigy, he'd regain everything--Sofia around the same time would get her powers back through some other means--it'd deal with personal problems within the characters themselves (Surge, Dust, Hellion, Trance, Match, Rockslide, Anole, mainly) before throwing in the arbitrary villain. I'd have Wolverine cameo for each scene set at the school. One tiny panel. No dialogue whatsoever. He'd just be there, or sometimes he'd be on a mission. I won't elaborate further, but Dani would find her way into its pages within the first arc. Re-establishing her relationships with these kids.

I was just being cheeky to get a response, but it looks like I was right that you'd come up with some good -and logical- things to do. I'm not a super fan of some of these characters (Match?), but I do like these ideas. And I would hope that if Marvel did give these characters another chance (which I wish they would), they'd do something in the direction of this. This would be cool.

oh, and I'd hope that this time around more people would actually buy the book, since that's really why the characters aren't being used.

But it's not a matter of "not reading it altogether", this is becoming a common one-liner for you, personally, when it shouldn't. You shouldn't make a habit of telling people to "not read it altogether" when they don't like the direction in which things are going, because change is always possible. Especially for a franchise you care about.

Sorry, you make a good point that that is becoming a bad habit of mine. I guess if I'm not interested in a book, I don't read it, and if I'm reading something I no longer enjoy, I stop. When I was younger, this sort of thing bothered me more than it does now, but now I feel like I have a lot more options than I did then. But I do try to stay constructive, which that sort of statement isn't really, so, sorry.

#50 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7202 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

It's a nice use, but he's not being used like that, is he ? He's nothing more than a treacherous hypocrite at this point in time, something that is the fault of the writers and not the characters themselves, but that's the way it jingles. When i see Wolverine these days, i see a marketing wh*re, his "character" has long since been stripped away from him, something that could be said for plenty other characters, due to overexposure.

yeah, that is one way of looking at it, and I don't disagree with that assessment, really. From that perspective, you could say his character has been "stripped" from him, in the sense that multiple interpretations of the character make it impossible to tell what a character is actually supposed to be, be about, or do. But I think the main difference between most interpretations of the character really come down to style, of both the writer and the story, and personally, I'd rather more choices than less. I like Claremont's Wolverine, I like Whedon's, I like early 90's interpretations of the character, but they aren't all the same. Obviously there are some stories with him that I think he is poorly written, but I guess those don't bother me as much as they seem to bother you. Not everything's for everyone, and at this point, I don't even think it's meant to or should be. I read 3 or 4 books with Wolverine in them, and I don't bother with all the others he's in. Are there other characters I'm more interested in who I don't even get the option of? yeah, but I don't see that as his fault.

Also, he is sort of being used the way Whedon used him currently, just not as well, in that (with issues 25 and 27 of WatX-men) Aaron has actually started to use him in the role of being a teacher again. It's not as good as the examples you've given of this, but I'm willing to admit that the difference is largely one of style, and that I've yet to have any attachment to many of the new characters. Whether I stick it out with this book or not, I do think it's a good role for him, and it certainly interests me more than seeing him as a regular in X-men or Uncanny X-men.

Sadly you don't know me as well as you think, and that scenario's well off. For one it'd strictly revolve around the next generation, excluding Aaron and Bendis' creation because they have no place. It'd focus on removing the "new" and "young" schema from the next generation and have them fully establish themselves as actual X-Men, time-line would start from the end of Utopia, from Prodigy's POV, Hope feels extremely guilty for everything that's happened, and David resents Scott, as well as the Avengers, for their actions--there was a question that Asmus received during his time on Gen. Hope and it was in regards to what would happen if Hope ever laid her hands on a depowered mutant as opposed to just one who was just coming into bloom--sadly that wasn't explored because Editorial though it'd be a better idea to bring in Sebastian Shaw--but i'd have that happen to Prodigy, he'd regain everything--Sofia around the same time would get her powers back through some other means--it'd deal with personal problems within the characters themselves (Surge, Dust, Hellion, Trance, Match, Rockslide, Anole, mainly) before throwing in the arbitrary villain. I'd have Wolverine cameo for each scene set at the school. One tiny panel. No dialogue whatsoever. He'd just be there, or sometimes he'd be on a mission. I won't elaborate further, but Dani would find her way into its pages within the first arc. Re-establishing her relationships with these kids.

I was just being cheeky to get a response, but it looks like I was right that you'd come up with some good -and logical- things to do. I'm not a super fan of some of these characters (Match?), but I do like these ideas. And I would hope that if Marvel did give these characters another chance (which I wish they would), they'd do something in the direction of this. This would be cool.

oh, and I'd hope that this time around more people would actually buy the book, since that's really why the characters aren't being used.

But it's not a matter of "not reading it altogether", this is becoming a common one-liner for you, personally, when it shouldn't. You shouldn't make a habit of telling people to "not read it altogether" when they don't like the direction in which things are going, because change is always possible. Especially for a franchise you care about.

Sorry, you make a good point that that is becoming a bad habit of mine. I guess if I'm not interested in a book, I don't read it, and if I'm reading something I no longer enjoy, I stop. When I was younger, this sort of thing bothered me more than it does now, but now I feel like I have a lot more options than I did then. But I do try to stay constructive, which that sort of statement isn't really, so, sorry.

Of course you would, but in this context, the choices are crap, so it doesn't matter much, in fact, that even makes it worse, because then you see poor reiterations of the same character over and over again, with the big-wigs acting as if their is no consensus as to what the character's moralistic grounding is. And those issues were pure crap, not sure if i read them or not, but i've seen scans. Doesn't matter, though, Aaron should have been using him like that since the start of school, it shouldn't take some new mission for him to suddenly discover it.

Indeed it is.

No need for the apologies, just saying.

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