Recently I had an argument with a person in my local comic shop who criticized the X-Men for having cut and paste back stories. I disagreed (more because I felt attacked then because they were wrong) but it got me thinking about some of my favorite back stories and origins....

So:

What are some of your favorite X-Men Origins/back stories for mutants, students or team mates?

also-

Do you think that mutant back stories as a whole are unoriginal within the franchise?

Claremont's origin for Magneto, from witnessing his family execution and his own subconscious power manifestation that saved only him, to the very moment where "Control" drive him to the edge of insanity, where he proclaims superiority over immature humanity. This is beyond just comic books, this is an absolute piece of art.

Very true, I've actually seen people debate whether the expanded versions improved (especially with regards to Testament) or if his backstory was perfect in it's original form.

@koays:

To me it is perfect even without Testament. That's why I'm so skeptical towards Remender's/Bunn's recent developments.

@adamtrmm: You mean like the inclusion of the Nazi' guy or the disassociation of QS/SW?

To me i always thought that a powerful moment that's never been had, would be Magneto heading back to the place where he was "born" and using his origin as inspiration for turning people to his side. Rather then just retelling the story second or third hand give them a visual representation of it.

I love Magik´s Origin it is my favorite origin of all X-Men.

Yeah, this.

I don't have the time right now to put into words how redefining Magnetos origin was, not just for the character and the X-Men mythos, but just for super villains altogether. It makes Magneto complex, likable, sympathetic and people often tout that he is the greatest "super villain" in all of comics because of it. Which I would agree with.

As for other characters, I know I am sort of taking the easy way out, but, I kind of like most of them.....

I like how the original 5 X-Men have very wacky, "Silver Agey", origins--like how Angel is a vigilante at first and almost screws up and gets people hurt, I like Cyclops was on the run and was manipulated by some criminal to his own ends. Wolverines back story was a stroke of genius at first seeing as how giving the character such longevity and trouble with his memory means you could inject and retcon all kinds of stories into his story at any time. Characters like Nightcrawler, Wolfsbane, Rogue and Magik have sad, compelling back stories that have allegories to very real world situations like neglect and abuse, Rachel Grey and her Terminator-esque back story, Banshee and his extensive background of government an law enforcement, Cannonball and his pressure to provide for his impoverished family after his father dies, Karma and her complicated familial issues, Forge and his uber tragic Vietnam tenure....I could go on, but, I will leave it at that.

Seriously, did the guy who said that their origins were "tacked on" ever really read an X-Men book or was he just a hipster or something?? I mean, most of their back stories are way more interesting than "x character dies, so y character decides to fight crime" or most other super hero origins for that matter. Perhaps he just meant their super powers, which, were kind of lazily thought up, which even Stan Lee admits.

He specifically said "All of the characters are Cable and Rogue" and implied that the formula was "get powers, hurt people with them, join the X-Men". We didn't really finish the discussion since my defense was to bring up the distinctness of Rogue from other characters but that devolved into a discussion of about movie/cartoon origins that went way off topic before being interrupted (which is probably why it stuck with me for so long *shrug*).



@vitalius- I also enjoy Magik's back story. To me it's never a bad thing when you can keep going back to your characters origins and get more material without it getting stale, and Magik/Limbo arcs have rarely (if ever) disappointed.

Yes, I was talking about Hitzig and Magneto's inability to deal with him single handedly. I mean, remember Legacy? The issue where Mags took Rogue to Holocaust Memorial Museum and tells her the story of him dealing with his IIRC first Nazi even as a child? While it was accurate to his character, it somewhat messed with chronology of Magneto becoming fully aware of his powers established by Claremont. That's my point about everything else added to his perfect "becoming Magneto" storyline, little details that make the full picture look unfinished when it already WAS since its very conception. Now, while this and Testament are at least very strong additions to his origins, Hitzig and everything revolving around him, is absolutely not. It doesn't make sense that he will let somebody else to kill his bogeyman. It doesn't make sense that he uses his powers in Auschwitz. It isn't that good of a concept to actually dedicate to it more than three issues. The embodiment of his nightmares doesn't need a single "evil" face, it is the whole procession that represents the worst in humanity. Remember, after running away with Magda, he was ready to leave everything behind and start a new life. Only humanity showed their colors from a new angle through a pogrom and I don't think that was an accident that Claremont settled it up in a Soviet Union territory. Like I said, exquisite, exquisite writing and powerful messages from the beginning till the end.

I think it's just too much of a sensitive issue to make it a plot device, and with Magneto's, let's say, not purest morality within villain/not-a-villain/murderer/madman routine that always comes around at some point, they just can't allow themselves to make this message single-minded by a character such controversial. IMO

what is rogue's back storfy

Well, I don't know what your tolerance with people is like, but I would have told the guy to read an X-Men comic. There is maybe an handful of characters that have accidentally hurt someone with their powers in their origin, and that would be a questionable number if there were only 7 X-Men, but there is dozens of characters with all sorts of origins from all over the world. It's a silly generalization.

Lol I admit i'm probably misstating his intended meaning a bit out of spite, since he came off pretty clear as someone who had discussed this at length before. I'll give the credit to him that if his implication was that the "everyone hates me"/'I'm a danger to the world" tropes are reused often then he's right. Though it over simplifies a lot of the distinctions and over looks the fact that the reason the X-Men band together is in part because of this recurring theme of being outcast by society in their back stories.

I'll also admit that I set this as a bit of bait, should he happen to wander any comic boards since i haven't encountered him since....*evil shrug*.

Ah i see. It's one of those thing that kind of bothered me in Testament as well, since it seemed like controlling nails and the Medal and stuff was only there as a heavy handed reminder that this isn't just any jewish boy growing up in Nazi Germany it's Magneto. I don't think it's too bad, but it does put cracks in the perfect story structure that prbably wouldn't have been there otherwise, whereas if say Rogue had previously had small bits of absorbing before her first kiss..

It's a very interesting point you bring up that personifying his experiences in Auschwitz with Hitzig would actually damage his origin. Since many writers encourage and look for ways to summarize an experience into one being who embodies the negatives of an event for a character. But for Magneto's crusade against humanity it kind of does become less valid when you realize he's more or less mad at this one guy who he associates with it then he is the whole world and the failings of humanity in general. I think that may have just ended my like for the Hitzig story arc....

I'm pretty it is a bit too sensitive for a mainstream company to touch on and could be misconstrued as capitalizing on the events, but to me it always felt like there was something missing in his interactions with certain characters and their understanding. His trip with Rogue showed how it could be used more to show his struggle then to justify it....there's a panel in a older X-Book where Scarlet Witch sort of flippantly calls him a mad man and disavowing him and it just seemed like it was a bit out of line even when he was clearly more on the villain side of the scale then he has been in recent years. I felt like there was always room for a moment where he says "this is why I am. You don't have to agree with what it made me, but this is why am this", it would legitimize Polaris jumping sides, and so many others who can grudgingly accept Magneto when he walks the halls of the X-Men base.

@koays:

Ah i see. It's one of those thing that kind of bothered me in Testament as well, since it seemed like controlling nails and the Medal and stuff was only there as a heavy handed reminder that this isn't just any jewish boy growing up in Nazi Germany it's Magneto. I don't think it's too bad, but it does put cracks in the perfect story structure that prbably wouldn't have been there otherwise, whereas if say Rogue had previously had small bits of absorbing before her first kiss..

Damn I just realized after some surreal rechecking, execution of Maggie's family wasn't written by Claremont, it was written by Pak for Testament? I for some reason interpreted it as a part of Classic X-Men#12. Hell, why do I have this scan printed in my memory then with retro art and colors that resemble that classic issues so much?

If it is Pak's, I'll give him full credit for establishing one of the most powerful additions to Mags' origins, that scene was really, really strong.

It's a very interesting point you bring up that personifying his experiences in Auschwitz with Hitzig would actually damage his origin. Since many writers encourage and look for ways to summarize an experience into one being who embodies the negatives of an event for a character. But for Magneto's crusade against humanity it kind of does become less valid when you realize he's more or less mad at this one guy who he associates with it then he is the whole world and the failings of humanity in general. I think that may have just ended my like for the Hitzig story arc....

Ouch.. Sorry to ruin it for you lol

To me it was always a flaw that many writers summarize Magneto as this strict "anti-human" fanatic. It's something deeper, and the fact that most of his lovers were human is too symbolic to avoid this issue. That's why I ship Magneto with Omega Sentinel, that will be messed up from all angles haha

I'm pretty it is a bit too sensitive for a mainstream company to touch on and could be misconstrued as capitalizing on the events, but to me it always felt like there was something missing in his interactions with certain characters and their understanding. His trip with Rogue showed how it could be used more to show his struggle then to justify it....there's a panel in a older X-Book where Scarlet Witch sort of flippantly calls him a mad man and disavowing him and it just seemed like it was a bit out of line even when he was clearly more on the villain side of the scale then he has been in recent years. I felt like there was always room for a moment where he says "this is why I am. You don't have to agree with what it made me, but this is why am this", it would legitimize Polaris jumping sides, and so many others who can grudgingly accept Magneto when he walks the halls of the X-Men base.

Sure you are!

Well they even wanted to retcon him into a Gypsy at one point (after Fatal Attractions I think) to avoid accusations of anti-Semitic subtexts.

Don't even start with me about his "children", I don't think there's a single writer who made them act even slightly reasonable the second they share a panel together. Do they even know about Anya? About his Auschwitz experience from his own perspective? Of course it's really hard to reason with what classic "madman" Magneto did to them in his worst days, but since his madness back then is now canon I'm pretty sure it could be dealt with already. But nah, it will be the same venom again and again. Well, not anymore I guess, yet another missed opportunity for Marvel. But who counts right? >_>

See, another angle all Decimation writers also missed was his failure with Genosha. While he couldn't do anything with WW2 back then, Genosha is fully on him. I mean 16+ million dead. This is THE ultimate failure, and it was barely touched upon, because people acknowledge Magneto for his Holocaust experience for obvious reasons of course, yet in THEIR (and let's not forget it is all still fiction, no matter how potentially good) world Genosha was... I can't say worst, but should've been NEWLY definitive for Mags. Mutants, under his rule, exterminated. But then Decimation happened and it overshadowed everything in story. Those muties can't even count their own tragedies with that pace.

Magneto is literally one walking storytelling potential, that's why regressing him into a simplistic villain would be a character assassination at this point.

Not really a fan of Magiks back story. Its kinda crazy because I love the character but the whole demonic side of things is not my favorite. I've always wanted that stuff in a different group or arena. The magical and mystical stuff belong with Dr. Strange. I prefer to keep mutants separate with their powers stemming from evolution or whatever as opposed to arcane and demonic stuff. I don't know I'm just not a fan of the amalgam type stuff that goes on. That said Magiks story is unique for sure

The actual death of his parents? Yea i'm pretty sure that wasn't established till much later....though i think I've seen the "young Magneto sneaks bred for family" scene several times with different artwork though so who knows where it all originated. Though i've mentally printed scenes from X-Men: Evolution as pages from Ultimate X-Men and argued about it so it happens to the best of us.

I believe there was another Magneto book prior to Testament that could've established that, but i really can't remember. Either way I wouldn't mind if Pak ever decided to come back and do a full series for X-Men...

It's been a long while since i've read it, but the 90's issue where Magneto is working at a construction site or something and he picks the guy to test Humanity by asking him a bunch of questions about how he feels about mutants.The guy doesn't say anything bad about them and doesn't have any prejudices. Eventually they start talking about whether they would kill Hitler as a baby if they had a chance and Magneto flips out and starts talking about how he'd kill everyone in Hitler's family and their families.... Then he looks to the guy who just saw him flip out clear the area and put on his Magneto costume while screaming about genocide and he ask "Would you kill me if you had the chance?"

The guy says yes and Magneto goes "Just as I thought" and flies off to screw with the magnetic field. It's like the writers were both trying to be true to the character origin and completely contradictory without realizing the crazy hypocrisy of making him this insane unflinching human hater is.

Depending on the Magneto version that could work....

My grammar mistakes are sometimes just secret truths trying to leak out....its awesome.

As far as I'm concerned, if we get a issue of Magneto with Polaris in it then I won't even care about SW and QS. Honest and truly they went years teasing connections and potential relationships and without really doing anything they stumbled upon something awesome... The idea that they could gain even a similar level of understanding to what Rogue or Scott or even Storm seem to have would've been great and only added to the complexity of the characters and their story....but whatever Higher Evolutionary and all that crap.

Really a failing of the Fall of Genosha as a whole was that it wasn't represented as anything but mountains, an arena and a sewer. We never saw the country to actually miss the country or feel it's effects. Though i'd argue some of the aftermath was creative and redefined characters like Emma, Xavier and for a time Polaris...it really would've been a weak foundation to be Magneto's greatest failure. Even despite the many times it's brought up and shown how helpless he was it's hard to say that it's more redefining the death of Anya because it's just easier to connect with that imagery then 16 million never scene no names getting lost in colorful explosion. And in the end, the Post-Genosha Magneto was forgotten as quickly as it takes to...idk....create a wormhole with magnetism so you can show up in a Bendis story that leads to the next Mutant tragedy.

Well, super hopeful bait threads aside, the guy still sounds sort of ignorant to the actual X-Men characters and continuity. Characters being a danger to themselves and others is used, but not as much as someone might think, maybe some characters like Cyclops, Rogue and Dani Moonstar come to mind.....but, who else really?? There is more characters who used their powers to help people in their origins, like Angel, Colossus, Storm, Cannonball, Sunfire etc., or just characters that have powers who weren't as apparent as to what their appearance or ambitions were, like Forge, Nightcralwer, Maggot, The Morlocks.

Also, if a person is critical of something having "reused tropes", then comic books definitely isn't the most ideal pursuit for them, lol.

With all due respect, and I am pretty sure I have ragged on you for this before.....but it's just weird that you would be a big fan of X-Men and say things like mysticism should only belong to Dr Strange.....I mean, the third of fourth major enemy the X-Men battle is Juggernaut, a mystical powerhouse, the third adventure the "All New, All Different X-Men" is against the N'Garai and features the possible mystical connection to Storm. Over the years it's been suggested that Colossus pulls his armor for Limbo, like Magik does, connecting the Rasputins to it, the people that raised Nightcrawler and the woman he fell in love with were witches, Forge was a sorcerer, Psylcokes family is heavily connected to British based mysticism and lore......most of the major X-Men have a mystical connection.

Anyways, my point is, the X-Men are more connected to magic than probably any other character or characters in the Marvel Universe outside of Strange, and that is actually one of the things that had made them so endearing throughout time, there are no limits to what they deal with, they are very much important gears in the Marvel Universe machine.

To me, it's just weird that someone says they like a franchise, but dislike major elements in the story......it's kind of similar to saying "I love the Walking Dead, but I hate all those pesky zombies, they make the story so unrealistic".......well, maybe that isn't the most sterling analogy, but you get what I mean.

@koays:

The actual death of his parents? Yea i'm pretty sure that wasn't established till much later....though i think I've seen the "young Magneto sneaks bred for family" scene several times with different artwork though so who knows where it all originated. Though i've mentally printed scenes from X-Men: Evolution as pages from Ultimate X-Men and argued about it so it happens to the best of us.

That must be it.

I believe there was another Magneto book prior to Testament that could've established that, but i really can't remember. Either way I wouldn't mind if Pak ever decided to come back and do a full series for X-Men...

"it happens to the best of us." - Hard to argue with that.

I'll keep digging because it's too surreal to not be true, kinda messed with my head.

As for Pak on the X-men, is it me, or with him come the featzzzz?

It's been a long while since i've read it, but the 90's issue where Magneto is working at a construction site or something and he picks the guy to test Humanity by asking him a bunch of questions about how he feels about mutants.The guy doesn't say anything bad about them and doesn't have any prejudices. Eventually they start talking about whether they would kill Hitler as a baby if they had a chance and Magneto flips out and starts talking about how he'd kill everyone in Hitler's family and their families.... Then he looks to the guy who just saw him flip out clear the area and put on his Magneto costume while screaming about genocide and he ask "Would you kill me if you had the chance?"

The guy says yes and Magneto goes "Just as I thought" and flies off to screw with the magnetic field. It's like the writers were both trying to be true to the character origin and completely contradictory without realizing the crazy hypocrisy of making him this insane unflinching human hater is.

Depending on the Magneto version that could work....

Yep, it was part of Magneto War, pretty cartoon-logic scene I'd say tbh, but yeah, canon. Magneto of 90s was a really hard nut to crack in terms of pretty much everything from mindset to his actions. I always thought that the global EMP from Fatal Attractions should've come back at him at some moment, and all in all haunt him from time to time.

To me it was always a problem that Magneto will tolerate mutant cruelty towards humanity based purely on motives of superiority when it mirrors his experience exactly. That's the thin line writers never dared to acknowledge that maybe more than humanity he should stand against "the oppressors" who right now just happen to be humans, but say in AOA he stood with humanity, since they were the oppressed ones. So all hints are there, just not the people who want to look at the depth of his character.

My grammar mistakes are sometimes just secret truths trying to leak out....its awesome.

As far as I'm concerned, if we get a issue of Magneto with Polaris in it then I won't even care about SW and QS. Honest and truly they went years teasing connections and potential relationships and without really doing anything they stumbled upon something awesome... The idea that they could gain even a similar level of understanding to what Rogue or Scott or even Storm seem to have would've been great and only added to the complexity of the characters and their story....but whatever Higher Evolutionary and all that crap.

Really a failing of the Fall of Genosha as a whole was that it wasn't represented as anything but mountains, an arena and a sewer. We never saw the country to actually miss the country or feel it's effects. Though i'd argue some of the aftermath was creative and redefined characters like Emma, Xavier and for a time Polaris...it really would've been a weak foundation to be Magneto's greatest failure. Even despite the many times it's brought up and shown how helpless he was it's hard to say that it's more redefining the death of Anya because it's just easier to connect with that imagery then 16 million never scene no names getting lost in colorful explosion. And in the end, the Post-Genosha Magneto was forgotten as quickly as it takes to...idk....create a wormhole with magnetism so you can show up in a Bendis story that leads to the next Mutant tragedy.

Divine moments of truth (c) Shpongle

Now that Polaris will show up in the next issue I think it's kinda intriguing where Bunn goes with it. HE never gets a break, each time a writer needs some genetic shenanigans that are below Sinister, that poor bastard has an appearance. But acknowledging these twins are in Remender's hands, it's better be retconned completely than having same old angst each time the idea of reunion is brought up.

Emma doesn't strike me as kind of Holocaust Survivor if you know what I mean, Polaris.... hm, the less said about Austen bizarre run, you know how they say lol But seriously, we're just back at bad decisions writers come up with and preference of using new events instead of dealing with the old ones as a constant. Pre-HOM Excalibur was actually pretty good read I'd say, but the impact of the Fall of Genosha was never as haunting and devastating as it should've been even there at the very place. Ugh I think me and you were at this conversation already, "the many sins of Grant Morrison" allover again.

It's his failure as an idea, the whole struggle to never let something like this happen again, and it did, under his watch. So while it is 16 million faceless and nameless nobodies, Stalin's "death of one is a tragedy, death of millions is a statistic" shouldn't be a given. In the end, if certain writer would like to make it such a big deal, it can easily be achieved.

Creating a wormhole was actually pretty nice, Claremont always made justice to Magneto's potential powerwise as well. Honestly, I'd be damn intrigued if he would've been given Magneto's solo at the time. Even though his writing isn't what it was, we owe him that over-complicated character we have right now.

Rogue was a normal girl from Mississippi until her Mutant power activated during her first kiss and she put the guy in a coma. She started panicking because she kept absorbing people until Mystique found and adopted her and started using her powers for criminal stuff. Eventually she seeks help from Xavier because she wants control and mental peace and he encourages her to join the X-Men.

@cattlebattle- Lol I like to think I specialize in super hopeful bait threads of one kind or another. But yea your totally right, and some of the other critiques he had, (too many characters (though you may agree there), reused/rehashed story lines) seem to come from a similar place of knowledge on the topic but without ground work on it. Like it's easy to say that 50% of X-Men is "rehashed stories" without reading through the material and understanding that there are so many X-Men arcs and backstories that are just as important to the narrative but aren't as mainstream as the Phoenix/Magneto/TimeTravel ones.

The way i see it if you chose to analyze themes instead of accepting them when you read something your going to have a hard time liking or appreciating the subtle things that make a character like Nightcrawler so very different from a similar character like Beast, or Cyclops from Rogue, or the New Mutants from any of the characters who are rescued/recruited to the school. Really if you simplify X-Men into just it's themes and what you expect from them, then you could read a book like "God Loves, Man Kills" and not see it as anything special while to those more engulfed in the material realize its position as a game changer..

@adamtrmm- 1)You know, I never really noticed craziness with Pak... I mean he got put on X-Treme X-Men and really endeared Dazzler as a unique thoughtful but still crazy awesome character without betraying her usual identity. And in general his short runs on X-Men specials have been 100% solid works in 5 issues that still leave you wanting more....so i kind of support him. Though if he really is writing the Storm solo i may need to reevaluate since it's a great deal lower in quality.

2) I always thought that when ever Mags talks about mutants as though there superior it should come with an explanation of how that aligns to his disagreements with Xavier. The way I've always interpretted it Magneto only wants mutants to rule over humans because humans out number mutants and see them as a threat. I always thought, especially given how he and Xavier can go back to being friends, that he was only doing some of these things out of fear of the potential threat and not out of any malice. But then he almost takes joy in seperating himself and mutant kind from humanity on every level within his mind and gets this crazy hatred for them...it's weird.

Really though this is something that I really hope Bunn takes a look at because everytime Magneto or anything from the "Clone/Magnetic Pulse/Hold the world hostage twice" era is brought up it seems they just shrug it off by saying "He was power crazy that week". So come on Bunn give us THAT flashback...or really anything that explores the real hardcore contradictions or extreme actions.

3)Pfft HE gets away with too much weirdness to get a pass for this newest nonsense...poor mans Sinister or not.

Lol yea we've went over the writers eternal search for the new hot "groudbreaking" tragedies for mutants to "endure" without exploration or any real discussion beyond "It happened". Though I will give both Morrison and Austen credit, Emma's entire secondary mutation was based in the fear and trauma of Genosha and protecting isolating herself... and Polaris' "Magneto Jr." arc was actually a VERY interesting development for the character and the book, and gave some subtle exploration of someone suffering from a breakdown after a tragedy....you know until Austen decided weird things up with the wedding...but otherwise I can at least applaud that.

My only problem with writers trying to trump up the importance of Genosha, other then how long its been, is that they;ve tried and failed and reduced it to nothing but "and Genosha happened". Kitty says her dad died on Genosha, never brought up again; they move to Utopia and nothing is said at all..... The best i remember was when Emma shut down the idea of the X-Men joining Team- Registration during Civil War with her mental flashback on Ms. Marvel. But even then it feels like such a "line" now, that even Magneto living and rebuilding on the sight of all that destruction doesn't really make me feel the significance when i see the setting.

Honestly Claremont should've written a Magneto solo write after House of M. It woud've really been the perfect time to really revisit him since the character was benched and had just gotten through being the center piece of so many stories.

@koays:

1)You know, I never really noticed craziness with Pak... I mean he got put on X-Treme X-Men and really endeared Dazzler as a unique thoughtful but still crazy awesome character without betraying her usual identity. And in general his short runs on X-Men specials have been 100% solid works in 5 issues that still leave you wanting more....so i kind of support him. Though if he really is writing the Storm solo i may need to reevaluate since it's a great deal lower in quality.

Hm.. To me the only thing worth mentioning from his take on X-treme would be the "Pantheon" version of well-known mutants. That was neat, but all in all it did kinda nothing for me. I mean, it might be more complex than basically a pretty simple slasher Exiles, but still didn't work for me.

Storm was given a solo in her (and X-characters in general) most controversial times, so it could only be either a success or a failure, and we know what it is right now. I can't judge in details, I don't read it, but that's what I here from people.

As for the featz part, hey, he's the writer of Superman, Hulk and Incredible Hercules! Featz should be a given right here. Though I don't think I'll ever forget that abomination that Chaos War was..

2) I always thought that when ever Mags talks about mutants as though there superior it should come with an explanation of how that aligns to his disagreements with Xavier. The way I've always interpretted it Magneto only wants mutants to rule over humans because humans out number mutants and see them as a threat. I always thought, especially given how he and Xavier can go back to being friends, that he was only doing some of these things out of fear of the potential threat and not out of any malice. But then he almost takes joy in seperating himself and mutant kind from humanity on every level within his mind and gets this crazy hatred for them...it's weird.

Yeah I also think it's pretty bad thing his philosophies were never actually fleshed out beyond "mutants rulz, humans sux" and if they are only with hints and interpretations. Bunn had this opportunity and I feel he's still concentrating on the same aspects from issue one, on controversy, hardcore decisions and edginess, that we all know are part of his character... What a waste.

Really though this is something that I really hope Bunn takes a look at because everytime Magneto or anything from the "Clone/Magnetic Pulse/Hold the world hostage twice" era is brought up it seems they just shrug it off by saying "He was power crazy that week". So come on Bunn give us THAT flashback...or really anything that explores the real hardcore contradictions or extreme actions.

Yes to this. While I respect Bunn acknowledging his very complicated continuity and highlighting pretty much the same events I'd want him to, still we miss the apex of it. So after everything that was said and done, where's Magneto's place in the new world? What did he learn from his mistakes? What he sees is his own role in many mutant tragedies and world condition in general? From Bunn's run the feeling that he struggles too much with relevance and while it is a great thing for awhile, we should've been already PAST that. I can list here a huge list of things that we should still make sense out when think of Magneto's history and none were even acknowledged, this can't be a good thing since the sales also go downhill and I'm sure there will be no Magneto solo by the end of SW.

3)Pfft HE gets away with too much weirdness to get a pass for this newest nonsense...poor mans Sinister or not.

I still think he has incredible potential especially as a X-villain/adversary.

Lol yea we've went over the writers eternal search for the new hot "groudbreaking" tragedies for mutants to "endure" without exploration or any real discussion beyond "It happened". Though I will give both Morrison and Austen credit, Emma's entire secondary mutation was based in the fear and trauma of Genosha and protecting isolating herself... and Polaris' "Magneto Jr." arc was actually a VERY interesting development for the character and the book, and gave some subtle exploration of someone suffering from a breakdown after a tragedy....you know until Austen decided weird things up with the wedding...but otherwise I can at least applaud that.

Exactly >_>

Well, I agree that diamond form is extremely cool concept and its manifestation was also heavy, but still I don't think we've ever seen Emma having I'd say expectable issues coming out from this mess. Strong woman bla bla bla, still I'd like to see more impact, even if she shuts it down, I'd like to see that in story.

I can't really discus Austen, issues I read made me disappointed in comics for a couple of days lol

That scene where Xavier and Logan deliver "Magneto's" body to Genosha and Polaris then playing devil's advocate, with Wolverine's rampaging and Xavier's naivete highlighted was so damn silly and hard to read.

Some interactions of Marko and Bobby were somewhat entertaining, also a "scene" with She-Hulk was funny, but seriously I can't afford thinking of this run and any implications it had as of something valuable. Oh Xorn brother was actually an OK concept, with the black hole as his head as opposed to the "original" Xorn, but he never made it really work and it only forced people "wtf" even more post Planet X nonsense instead of making sense out of it.

My only problem with writers trying to trump up the importance of Genosha, other then how long its been, is that they;ve tried and failed and reduced it to nothing but "and Genosha happened". Kitty says her dad died on Genosha, never brought up again; they move to Utopia and nothing is said at all..... The best i remember was when Emma shut down the idea of the X-Men joining Team- Registration during Civil War with her mental flashback on Ms. Marvel. But even then it feels like such a "line" now, that even Magneto living and rebuilding on the sight of all that destruction doesn't really make me feel the significance when i see the setting.

I have a theory, more than just for continuity they just don't care or ignore certain stories with this policy "the less said the better". That's what happened to Xorn/Sublime and Magneto. We've never seen Magneto's actual reaction to somebody who used his name in an anti mutant event (it killed 5000 humans yet was сommited to unleash anti mutant sentiments). Same with Joseph. A perfect clone of Magneto - young, powerful, no mental/memorial baggage is out there, yet nothing. Again, many don't like the concept so they just ignore him... It shouldn't work like this!

Honestly Claremont should've written a Magneto solo write after House of M. It woud've really been the perfect time to really revisit him since the character was benched and had just gotten through being the center piece of so many stories.

Dam! Now you reminded me that thought I had how they missed another opportunity of having HUMAN Magnus back then and exploring his mindset, remembering what was it to be a mere powerless human, being everything he wasn't and even stood against for so long. That might be groundbreaking. Might...

@cattlebattle: So are you questioning whether I'm a fan now? I can dislike certain elements and still be a fan. Unless all of a sudden you've become the leading official authority on who's a fan and who's not. I dislike the time-travel stuff and the constant over reliance on the Phoenix. Both of those are huge elements in Xmen yet they aren't my favorite things. I don't need anyone to recite to me all the magical and mystical connections the xmen have as I'm well aware having read them over the years. I think Magiks story is unique but really I see many similarities in her story and Wolverines its just that his was more experimentation scientific based whereas hers can in some ways just be dumbed down to demonic rape, which happens to not be my favorite. Is it really a crime to not like certain elements of certain comics? Do you love every single thing about the xmen and their history? I simply stated something that I wasn't a fan of and frankly I don't really care whether it tickles your fancy or not unless you can show why I need to be pining for your approval.

Now getting on the subject of Magneto... I can kind of understand even the madman aspects of his history. Not saying they are great but... I think his mentality of "never again" as far as oppression is understandable. Even the " get them before they get you" is understandable in some ways. I could see someone surviving what he's experienced and resolving in the hearts to never be oppressed again and whatever group they are part of be some minority, a religion or mutant, they will stand up to make sure they are in the power position and dominant. The whole global emp thing was crazy but really setting the world and technology back to the stone age would have in some ways made mutants gods and necessary for survival. He's definitely a complex character and Bunn has done a good job in his book though I can see what some are saying about it be cause a lot at times just doesn't seem to fit. It seems there's a lot more than can be explored with him and much of the potential was missed in Bendis' Uncanny run which could have been epic had there been some focus on Magnetos belief and possible influence on a revolution. Add in Emma having the power, control and influence as the best way mentality that shseemed to exhibit in the hellfire club back in the day and coupledcoupled with Cyclops' edgier mentality and whether he'd really go the "by any means necessary" route.. And that run could have some extremely interesting dialogue and riveting development. Of course we ended up with Bendix speak and his silly creations and Malloy and time travel so go figure lol

Woah, slow your role there, guy.....you are really over reacting. This whole reply just made you sound kind of petulant.

I am not the authority on anything nor did I claim to be and it's not a crime to dislike anything. I merely questioned your opinion of not liking the fantasy elements of a franchise when a huge chunk of said franchise is based around fantasy concepts and characters.

If you get upset when people criticize your opinion perhaps the internet isn't the best place for you ;)

@cattlebattle: Not really. I just decided to restate my position. Valid criticisms are fine but when I don't see it as valid I tend to try and point that out. I also tend to go at people who seem to try and state their opinions as if they are the gospel. Sorry if it came across a little harsh but trust me I'm not upset about anything on the internet, I just tend to respond when I feel its necessary and I believe in not holding back and being brutally honest.

@koays:

I liked because it gave lot of characther´s deveploment to Illyana and explains why she acts to situations. Yes i agree Limbo/Magik´s Arcs are pretty great and i am actually suprised that Marvel never made magic X-Men Team or just magic team. Magic Characther have lot of potencial and i dont think they are very explored.

@adamtrmm: 1) Lol can't really argue if he's behind Chaos War.... That's not just feats that's just battle forum self fondling material.

I'll say the pantheon and robot apocalypse arcs were both stand out to me. Little Kurt was a breakout and when we first heard the Age" of Ultron" event plot I was hoping that it would play out a little bit like that.

He's pretty good about doing character pieces, though Storm's solo seems to pretty much make it difficult for people who weren't fans already to get into the character since it paints her as being held back by everyone else's expectations...

2) I'll give Bunn this much, he's painted an excellent picture....and we may just be nitpicking by asking him to dig deeper when he's given a lot of insight on Magenetoisms of past writers, really even giving us more insight on the characters actions then any writer has in other characters books. BUT there's still something to be said about using an idea to its full potential...which he still has time to do, but hasnt.

The struggle for relevance that he's had Magneto dealing with has been interesting, but I agree that he needs to move past this if only because it paints him as WAY to indecisive to be where is at this point in the story, leading another "controversial mutant nation".

3)Idk. The first time I heard about HE I imagined him on a mountain With an army of cow hybrids and the X-Men fighting through them Xcutioner style. What I got was....less epic, so the disappointed never wore off.

Idk maybe because I read Austen during a time where I wasn't paying much attention to writers but it took me a while to dislike a lot of his stuff (save the legendary Nightcrawler arc). And to me, among the 4 big shuffles of writers that worked on Polaris around that time (Claremont included) his was the most interesting..and probably the most interesting the character has ever been. Similarly for Marko as anything other then a villain.

Ironically though, the Xorn brother story was the one part he wasn't behind because that was ordered by the higher ups who liked Xorn before the Xorneto reveal.

Lol I think "the less said the better" basically sums it all up. Other then a few stories like Remenders X-Force which are steeped in character history, they just don't like to explain things that haven't happened in the very recent now. I mean honestly they should just adopt a technique similar to this weeks Amazing X-Men (which would be both stylistically unique and a easy reminder) where they show a quick flashback of what parts of the past events are important to the story this issue.

That said, while I can relate to not wanting to have to carry the whole wait every writer before you including their obvious errors and mistakes, I can agree with, and really want more of, showing some attention to details and looking for some insight to these characters and their actions....but that's comics, older fans want more building of infrastructure for characters, history and stories that left something out or us wanting more....while new fans would rather fresh stories that don't require work to understand or dive into. Idk how many writers can pull it off and even half of those that can, can do it consistently.

What we got of human Mags was great though. I mean what we saw of him in Son of M. and then again X-Men Legacy was great exploration even if he was just in a supporting role. And the journey he'd went through was evident even in his attire, going from walking around in the ruins of Genosha in his Magneto gear to a leather jacket and red shirt being disrespected by former acolytes.... Its glaring. Only thing is nobody explored it. More material for Bunn I guess if he keeps his run going post SW, though I think he's trying to wrap it up with an ironic moment of helplessness for Magneto by putting the End of Genosha and juxtaposing it with the end of the 616.

@koays:

I'll say the pantheon and robot apocalypse arcs were both stand out to me. Little Kurt was a breakout and when we first heard the Age" of Ultron" event plot I was hoping that it would play out a little bit like that.

Didn't even get there, but now I am interested.

He's pretty good about doing character pieces, though Storm's solo seems to pretty much make it difficult for people who weren't fans already to get into the character since it paints her as being held back by everyone else's expectations...

It really wasn't a good time for her solo, she was pushed to take over too many spots of leaderships that inevitably make one a center of said stories. And with these stories being mediocre at best and with many fanbases so divided, it's like they wanted it to fail, but seriously just misstepped. What's new?

I'll give Bunn this much, he's painted an excellent picture....and we may just be nitpicking by asking him to dig deeper when he's given a lot of insight on Magenetoisms of past writers, really even giving us more insight on the characters actions then any writer has in other characters books. BUT there's still something to be said about using an idea to its full potential...which he still has time to do, but hasnt.

The struggle for relevance that he's had Magneto dealing with has been interesting, but I agree that he needs to move past this if only because it paints him as WAY to indecisive to be where is at this point in the story, leading another "controversial mutant nation".

Yep, learning from his own mistakes would be nice. Doesn't seem like he does =\

Idk. The first time I heard about HE I imagined him on a mountain With an army of cow hybrids and the X-Men fighting through them Xcutioner style. What I got was....less epic, so the disappointed never wore off.

It's not about cow-men, but the motive behind their creation. Don't forget he is also behind Adam Warlock and was part of some cosmic stories. I seriously think that he has incredibly vast potential.

Idk maybe because I read Austen during a time where I wasn't paying much attention to writers but it took me a while to dislike a lot of his stuff (save the legendary Nightcrawler arc). And to me, among the 4 big shuffles of writers that worked on Polaris around that time (Claremont included) his was the most interesting..and probably the most interesting the character has ever been. Similarly for Marko as anything other then a villain.

Did you read War of Kings X-men tie ins? They were really nice, if you liked Brubaker's RaFoSE, these minis are a must-read. Anyway, while Havok and Lorna's reunion was kinda forced, all in all the story and character portrayals were good. Polaris acted as aunt to Luna and "retroactively" had a good relationship with Crystal and it was all pretty nice, but as we already accustomed to, was ignored right after.

Marko is a yesteryear, all this siblings with angst are so obsolete they need to go. Thunderbolts is a good place for him. But you know, "he is more unstoppable than ever before!!!" Like I predicted, that's Yost for you.

Ironically though, the Xorn brother story was the one part he wasn't behind because that was ordered by the higher ups who liked Xorn before the Xorneto reveal.

Hickman seems to be totally a fan of this Xorn-bros concept, it's like the only significant legacy Austen had and it's not even his? I thought editorial ordered "to handle" the situation in general, not with an actual move?

Lol I think "the less said the better" basically sums it all up. Other then a few stories like Remenders X-Force which are steeped in character history, they just don't like to explain things that haven't happened in the very recent now. I mean honestly they should just adopt a technique similar to this weeks Amazing X-Men (which would be both stylistically unique and a easy reminder) where they show a quick flashback of what parts of the past events are important to the story this issue.

Credit where credit is due, that opening by Yost was indeed kinda "Amazing", but the sum of it all... not so much, and sadly so!

What do you mean by UXF?

That said, while I can relate to not wanting to have to carry the whole wait every writer before you including their obvious errors and mistakes, I can agree with, and really want more of, showing some attention to details and looking for some insight to these characters and their actions....but that's comics, older fans want more building of infrastructure for characters, history and stories that left something out or us wanting more....while new fans would rather fresh stories that don't require work to understand or dive into. Idk how many writers can pull it off and even half of those that can, can do it consistently.

There's a hoping that one day "a comic book writer" will be a profession of prestige and magnitude, when they'll take their work as serious as it possible and "nonsenses" won't be tolerated! lol nah, it's all so arbitrary...

What we got of human Mags was great though. I mean what we saw of him in Son of M. and then again X-Men Legacy was great exploration even if he was just in a supporting role. And the journey he'd went through was evident even in his attire, going from walking around in the ruins of Genosha in his Magneto gear to a leather jacket and red shirt being disrespected by former acolytes.... Its glaring. Only thing is nobody explored it. More material for Bunn I guess if he keeps his run going post SW, though I think he's trying to wrap it up with an ironic moment of helplessness for Magneto by putting the End of Genosha and juxtaposing it with the end of the 616.

You think? From now on, the true intrigue is, what there is for Magneto right now? No demons, no dealing with event fallout, only legacy and children from a superficial examination one might say...

And I still think human Maggie at least deserved a mini :P