I've read Xtinction Agenda right now, and there's was that point where they appointed how only muties can be infected and then the next panel showed Rockslide standing and that made me thinking... If X-gene is something that exists biologically, how can it be applied on characters who have no biological body to begin with. Rockslide, Shadowking, Malice, hell even X-man and Iceman who have no biological body limitations. And that's just from the top of my head without getting into details.

First off: "Muties" is fictionally derogatory.

Second: If you're implying that Rockslide has somehow been infected in the latest issue...that would be considered a spoiler if you wouldn't mind editing your post to add a spoiler block as I've done here.

Third: If it's a fictional virus that specifically targets fictional superhumans with the fictional X-Gene, I'm sure it can find a fictional way.

@thunderscream:

First off: "Muties" is fictionally derogatory.

Did it fictionally offend you?

Second: If you're implying that Rockslide has somehow been infected in the latest issue...that would be considered a spoiler if you wouldn't mind editing your post to add a spoiler block as I've done here.

Am I? You tell me, where is the spoiler? Now I tell you, there's no implying and I revealed nothing that wasn't exposed in this official preview already:

http://www.comicvine.com/articles/preview-x-tinction-agenda-3/1100-153219/

Third: If it's a fictional virus that specifically targets fictional superhumans with the fictional X-Gene, I'm sure it can find a fictional way.

This isn't even about the virus if you haven't noticed. But now I'm sure since it's fiction there will be a fictional answer, right, right.

idc this reminds me of how mutants cant get aids

Well, for certain characters it depends on the writers and their interpretations. In the case of Shadow King, he was later revealed (I forgot which writer did the story) to possibly be some multiversal entity and perhaps not a mutant, though, before that I imagine he was just supposed to be a mutant that at one point had an original body. And in the case of Malice, I believe Claremont, who championed wackiness, created her to have some weird bond with Lorna Dane and possibly was not meant to be a mutant whatsoever, but something else Mr Sinister created/employed. Though, so many characters have been retconned so many times that I don't even know anymore.

I imagine most mutants that went on to not have a corporal form started out with one and were classified as a mutant at that point.

I figured that the X-gene produced a certain type of energy that allowed it to exists even in non humanoid forms and connects to the person the same way telepaths minds connect to their bodies/

this is a great question.

I do think it's worth considering that all of those examples did have biological bodies to begin with, and arguably still do if you consider the mind itself to be biological.

One theory of what consciousness is is that it's the electromagnetic energy created/stored in our brains; from that perspective, the energy itself is part of our biology. If a mutant mind can survive without it's original body, that is, if that electromagnetic energy can retain things like personality and memories, it sort of stands to a certain kind of reason that it would also retain some genetic memory. And/or it's the genetic memory being part of that that enables the mind to maintain itself, meaning whatever new body that mind took would retain that information as well?

@oldnightcrawler: I guess the proof of that theory would be an example of a mutant mind possessing someone (Shadowking, Apocalypse Sinister) and them being recognized as a mutant. I think we've seen that Apocalypse and Shadowking's possesions can alter physical appearance's....though whether that's would be an example of genetic memory asserting its self, artistic license, or just the characters own vanity would be debatable.

More to the point. I think that Bobby, who we've seen to rebuild his body from liquid at least 4 times and likely doesn't possess the knowledge of genetics necessary to purposely include his every gene, proves that the X-gene can be transferred psionically. Which really only leaves the question of how does a psionic X-gene get effected by a physical virus?

have we seen any mind-jumpers (Shadow King, Malice, etc) or body re-builders (Iceman, Rockslide, Dust, etc) get a physical virus?

Madrox might be confusing the issue here, since he only mind-jumps between/rebuilds from himself, but didn't he die of the Legacy virus and survive in another body?

(also, Sinister's not a mutant, he got his powers from Apocalypse)

This is going to turn into homework.... I can think of the quarantine that happened on Utopia while Emma and Kitty were throwing Shaw out a plane and i remember them mentioning heavy hitters being effected, but I'll have to look at the crowd shots. That's the only thing i can really think of that was targeting people with the X-gene. But if any of those people were effected then it proves that the X-Gene or some variation on organic physiology can be recreated and effected by them.

How did Madrox die from the legacy virus if he's not a.... you know what nvm... If the legacy virus was targetting his physical body i guess a mind leap would take it with him given the theory. But since he's kind of half/half it's hard to really tell what he's doing or what part of the theory he's disproving.


(lol It's like I swear I already know that...but he fit so neatly in there that i didn't think twice)

well, mutant or not, Madrox is a human, and some humans who didn't have the X-gene also got the legacy virus. I think. Didn't Moira MacTaggart get it?

Anyway, if any of the body-swappers/rebuilders were effected by the Utopian epidemic, did any of them try to swap to/rebuild a new body to get away from it?

if they had tried, would they have been able to? the symptoms of that virus was that it took their powers away, right?

also, what becomes of Rockslide if you take his powers away? with Iceman or Dust, we'd sort of assume they'd just turn human again (hopefully while they were in one piece), but Rockslide doesn't have a human body anymore (well, his body is human because he is, but you know what I mean)...

Would him losing his powers just kill him, or simply make him unable to take physical form? Or maybe his powers can't be taken away?

Well yea she did, but even that doesn't make sense given how often it was drilled in during and after the period that the Legacy Virus didn't effect base humans..,idk we'll play advocate and say it does but for whatever reason it doesn't always. (Plothole for short)

I'm going to look for scans for the Utopia incident. Your right that it took away their powers, but even if Iceman were effected it wouldn't be his first body that he'd be returning to. It would be one constructed for himself by his powers, which (aside from adding additional questions about what the limits to THAT ability is) would put him at a different level then Dust who i don't think can reform her body with new "dust", as she once nearly died because she was slowly turned to glass. It creates an argument that each of them may work differently.

I guess the method in which you strip Rockslides powers should matter. An interesting thing with him is that Beast (mad scientist that he is) suspected him of being purely psychic entity after his first body was blown up (like a Shadow King but for rocks). Which would mean that physical things, like Rogue's touch, virus' and illnesses don't effect him (though he still is detectable as a mutant by tech). However because it's an alternate timeline, the form he's in may just be his original one and susceptible to things that his alternate bodies are not.

So the question returns to, has anyone ever depowered Shadowking or another psychic entity while possessing a body?

Because if they have then what ever the result is should be relevant to the connection between mutants abilities and their physical form.

@cattlebattle:

Well, for certain characters it depends on the writers and their interpretations

While it can be said about almost anything I do feel like we need some universal rules and knowing the mechanics behind them. But this is actually true, reminds me of how Adam Warlock post his resurrection revealed to be able to access "quantum magic" instead of manipulating cosmic energy like did originally.

In the case of Shadow King, he was later revealed (I forgot which writer did the story) to possibly be some multiversal entity and perhaps not a mutant, though, before that I imagine he was just supposed to be a mutant that at one point had an original body.

I think Remender reretconned him to be a mutant again, but regardless he was a mutant in his initial body so his transcendence shouldn't have changed that unless it was stated.

And in the case of Malice, I believe Claremont, who championed wackiness, created her to have some weird bond with Lorna Dane and possibly was not meant to be a mutant whatsoever, but something else Mr Sinister created/employed. Though, so many characters have been retconned so many times that I don't even know anymore.

I think I remember her being referred to as mutant. And since she has no physical body to contain the gene, she is the perfect example of how this little plot-hole is left for our own interpretations.

@oldnightcrawler:

I do think it's worth considering that all of those examples did have biological bodies to begin with, and arguably still do if you consider the mind itself to be biological.

True. So maybe the idea is that X-gene connect mutants to different planes of existence and thus transcends those individuals beyond their biological limitations if needed? We know that Nightcrawler teleports through Dark Dimension, Iceman and Rockslide connected to elements, X-man and Legion can exist in Astral Plane, etc. Like if X-gene creates rapport for those planes and aspects to be bonded with said mutants and that's why "ultimate mutant" is said to have unlimited potential through being connected AND being able to access multiple planes simultaneously or just becoming a "god" of their specific area.

Regardless of what these aspects considered in our world I think Marvelverse established the idea of the mindscape being part of the Astral Plane.

One theory of what consciousness is is that it's the electromagnetic energy created/stored in our brains; from that perspective, the energy itself is part of our biology. If a mutant mind can survive without it's original body, that is, if that electromagnetic energy can retain things like personality and memories, it sort of stands to a certain kind of reason that it would also retain some genetic memory. And/or it's the genetic memory being part of that that enables the mind to maintain itself, meaning whatever new body that mind took would retain that information as well?

I did read some time ago that Marvel initially went this route and that's why classic Mags was able to Astral travel and had a potential for telepathy, but with the introduction of Astral Plane this was changed. I mean in a place where so many dimensions are a consistent part of the world, EM spectrum is way too limiting, when there are planes of dreams, nightmares, light, darkness, multiple magical ones, afterworlds, all interconnected with the main one, so I can understand why they dropped the EM one for it being to mundane for such a conceptual world to exist.

I'd like to engage this discussion about EMS and its connection to our own mindscape worlds, I even write a little project in this field exactly, but I don't think it's applicable for Marvelworld.

that all sounds kind of right to me.

that seems unnecessary to me. I mean, the Astral Plane could still make sense as physically existing as part of the EM spectrum. That's always how I picture it in my own head cannon, it just makes telepathy feel more like sci-fi and less like magic, I guess.

Plus I like the (head cannon) explanation that Magneto's telepathy blocking helmet actually messed up his own mental powers and was part of what made him act so insane in the 60's and 70's. I mean, when he started to be written like an understandable, even reasonable person, it was when he stopped wearing it all the time, and virtually every return to his villainous ways has been marked by him putting it back on, right?

I'd be interested in reading that.

I doubt the writers went that deep into writing it but I think you have ur answers above

Ha! Thats the dream, isn't it? That Marvel actually puts someone in charge of keeping track of peoples whereabouts and plot lines when not active on the main roster, or at least upholds laws and limits to a concept so something doesn't get overblown. I suppose we can always hope.

Well, when he was retconned to be a "multi-versal entity", it was stated that he was around since the dawn of man and never had a corporeal form, he just body jumped for thousands of years supposedly. If he is a mutant, I would just assume that his original body and born identity was Amahl Farouk. That would actually make more sense for him to have a grudge against Xavier seeing as Xavier forced him to abandon that body when he defeated him the first time.

I have no idea what happened to her after Claremonts tenure, but she was never referred to as a mutant during Claremonts run as I recall. In fact, a character named Malice was introduced just before she shows up in X-Men during John Byrnes Fantastic Four run that possessed Sue Storm and fed off her hateful feelings and made her evil, and that character was a product of mysticism, but, they weren't supposed to be the same character anyways.

Both characters are likely inspired by the 1968 novel called Chthon which had a character called Malice that had something to do with manipulating people's negative emotions....I don't know if you recall the time when Polaris would grow and develop super strength and incite negative, hostile feelings (like the character in the novel) in people during the early 90s...but I imagine Claremont intended that to have something to do with Malice as Malice was likely going to be some sort of curse on Lorna Dane or some sort of Cassandra Nova type character that was possibly her twin sister in the womb and then turned to pure energy or some crazy thing like that. So, basically, I am not sure if she technically would have been considered or was ever intended to be a traditional mutant.

Maybe thats why some of those characters can be used to deal with the infected since they dont have regular bodies. But at one point they did, so its probably something related to that. Either way i think its too smart a question for the current Marvel brain-trust to answer or even get into. And i really cant think of any writer who would be able to explain this, so i would just choose to be dumb and entertained by the glitz and glamour as opposed to actually thinking about it since thats the type of fans they want these days. Marvel says: Logic and reason is stuuuppiiddd!! Lol

We should just stop here. You win the thread. It's all downhill from here.

@cattlebattle:

Ha! Thats the dream, isn't it? That Marvel actually puts someone in charge of keeping track of peoples whereabouts and plot lines when not active on the main roster, or at least upholds laws and limits to a concept so something doesn't get overblown. I suppose we can always hope.

And we'll fight for it to be exactly it! lol

Well, when he was retconned to be a "multi-versal entity", it was stated that he was around since the dawn of man and never had a corporeal form, he just body jumped for thousands of years supposedly. If he is a mutant, I would just assume that his original body and born identity was Amahl Farouk. That would actually make more sense for him to have a grudge against Xavier seeing as Xavier forced him to abandon that body when he defeated him the first time.

Eh, can't say I consider this "multiversal stuff" a good development, and in any way nothing a good, old retcon cannot deal with. Yeah I said that. We can always blame it all on his overblown arrogance and self-importance.

I have no idea what happened to her after Claremonts tenure, but she was never referred to as a mutant during Claremonts run as I recall. In fact, a character named Malice was introduced just before she shows up in X-Men during John Byrnes Fantastic Four run that possessed Sue Storm and fed off her hateful feelings and made her evil, and that character was a product of mysticism, but, they weren't supposed to be the same character anyways.

I thought Sue's "Malice" was her just going crazy? Good to know, but seems like a pretty visible editorial mistake, doesn't it? Or maybe there was an idea of invasion of "malices" floating over the offices? lol

Both characters are likely inspired by the 1968 novel called Chthon which had a character called Malice that had something to do with manipulating people's negative emotions....I don't know if you recall the time when Polaris would grow and develop super strength and incite negative, hostile feelings (like the character in the novel) in people during the early 90s...but I imagine Claremont intended that to have something to do with Malice as Malice was likely going to be some sort of curse on Lorna Dane or some sort of Cassandra Nova type character that was possibly her twin sister in the womb and then turned to pure energy or some crazy thing like that. So, basically, I am not sure if she technically would have been considered or was ever intended to be a traditional mutant.

Again, good to know. About Polaris, yeah sure but I don't remember if it was even hinted that she was in fact having Malice influencing her actions, I think it was explained on her secondary mutation develop a "psychic vampire" type of negative emotions leeching and turning it into energy that empowered her physical stats. Though that would still be pretty fun, maybe even would've spared us from that Cassandra Nova fiasco lol.

Yeah, but this is already established to be a separate plane that's basically parallel to a physical, normal one and EMS is as physical as it gets. I wouldn't like to ruin your interpretation, but you'll have to reject to many existing angles to think so.

And here, as a veteran reader you already know that Magneto's helmet was never about blocking TP right until the movies. I think the idea of his craziness comes directly from a, let's say, genetic flaw that prevents him from manipulating and using EMS on its full scale, and moreover messes with his central nervous system if I remember correctly. Hm I think I need to reread some classic stuff lol

I'd be interested in reading that.

In time, I'll remember that. I appreciate that.

Sure I did. But if the truly interesting stuff is all the way down, I say we're here for a different show.

LOL

Eh, it will never happen. The funny thing is that Marvel and DC had more synergy and cohesion when they were just a niche interest, now that they are super popular the stories within the two main companies are probably overall the worst they have been in a while. Marvels primary focus seems to be on Star Wars right now.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. If you make Shadow King some sort of other worldly being it kind of nullifies the fact that he was the reason Xavier formed the X-Men as he was a powerful mutant abusing his power.

I suspect that her influencing negative emotions was something leftover from when Malice was grafter to her. Again, I think Claremont had intended Malice to have some sort of relation to Lorna Dane as Zaladane was obviously supposed to be her sister and this was before she was retconned to be Magnetos daughter. There likely would have been some sort of weird family tree going on there that involved magic and other ideas, seeing as that I think Zaladane started out as a sorceress of some sort. It's also worth noting that Sinister kind of manipulates Malice into joining with Polaris to lead the Marauders, and Mr Sinister appeared to have some sort of mystical prowess in his his early appearances. So, I think Malice would have been revealed to be something more than just a mutant.

@cattlebattle:

Eh, it will never happen. The funny thing is that Marvel and DC had more synergy and cohesion when they were just a niche interest, now that they are super popular the stories within the two main companies are probably overall the worst they have been in a while. Marvels primary focus seems to be on Star Wars right now.

Well Secret Wars appears to have mostly positive reviews and sales accordingly, and ANAD Marvel with its multiple relaunches is basically destined to dominate the market right after even if we forget Star Wars for a moment. I wouldn't say they only put their effort into just Star Wars, to much is going on with the regular universe to let it flow independently. That's a huge draw, no denial, but I can't see them having a dominating office. But regardless, looking at what bring Marvel so much money these days, who said that War(s) can't be profitable?

But if your point was that Marvel is too big to be perfectly cohesive, then I will agree, though I think that it's just an excuse, but since the mechanism is working, all other components must be redundant, right? =\

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. If you make Shadow King some sort of other worldly being it kind of nullifies the fact that he was the reason Xavier formed the X-Men as he was a powerful mutant abusing his power.

Wait, I thought Magneto was the reason?

I suspect that her influencing negative emotions was something leftover from when Malice was grafter to her. Again, I think Claremont had intended Malice to have some sort of relation to Lorna Dane as Zaladane was obviously supposed to be her sister and this was before she was retconned to be Magnetos daughter. There likely would have been some sort of weird family tree going on there that involved magic and other ideas, seeing as that I think Zaladane started out as a sorceress of some sort. It's also worth noting that Sinister kind of manipulates Malice into joining with Polaris to lead the Marauders, and Mr Sinister appeared to have some sort of mystical prowess in his his early appearances. So, I think Malice would have been revealed to be something more than just a mutant.

Yeah well that might've been interesting but evidently franchise went a completely different route, with Sinister being a stealer of mutant powers and Apocalyptian mutate. But I for some reason do have a feeling that Zaladane's plot will be picked up again and to add more drama they will reveal Mags killed his own daughter or some other epic crap on this scale haha

It's not too big, it's just that that sort of storytelling isn't priority for them. Marvel is popular and is more obsessed with having new readers come aboard everyday so the stories can't be that convoluted. Unfortunately, being convoluted is somewhat important to a good story; lots of character developments, a lot happening around the characters, foreshadowing, flashbacks, etc. They think that people that jump on these days will think of it as too much effort.

Nah, it was his battle with Shadow King that led him to form the X-Men...Do you even X-MEN!? Kidding, kidding. Seriously though, yeah, he battles the Shadow King and is inspired to form a group of mutants to combat mutants who abuse their power so heads back to the US and gets crippled by Lucifer while en route. The last time he sees Magneto prior to that, he helped him defeat Baron Von Strucker, so he doesn't have any reason to believe Magneto would be an enemy at that point.

I wouldn't put anything past Marvel creative these days.

@cattlebattle:

It's not too big, it's just that that sort of storytelling isn't priority for them. Marvel is popular and is more obsessed with having new readers come aboard everyday so the stories can't be that convoluted. Unfortunately, being convoluted is somewhat important to a good story; lots of character developments, a lot happening around the characters, foreshadowing, flashbacks, etc. They think that people that jump on these days will think of it as too much effort.

You know, after witnessing firsthand people asking questions like "why is Nick Fury white?" (in his first appearances) and the fact that angry fans keep internet discussions warm, I can understand their attitude. It's cold and soulless, but effective as hell.

Nah, it was his battle with Shadow King that led him to form the X-Men...Do you even X-MEN!? Kidding, kidding. Seriously though, yeah, he battles the Shadow King and is inspired to form a group of mutants to combat mutants who abuse their power so heads back to the US and gets crippled by Lucifer while en route. The last time he sees Magneto prior to that, he helped him defeat Baron Von Strucker, so he doesn't have any reason to believe Magneto would be an enemy at that point.

I swear I remember Magneto being mentioned as the reason, I just can't remember where it was right now... Hey, you know it's not an easy task to keep up with classics especially when in your country comic book community is basically non existent. So sometimes you select what you consider more essential (among the classics), other stories have to wait sadly.

I wouldn't put anything past Marvel creative these days.

Just these days?

Nah, after Claremont, it was always there!

Proof:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2015/08/23/things-that-turned-out-bad-uncanny-x-men-for-your-time-traveling-incest-needs/

I totally read it differently, but the fact that they made it so suggestive... F@ck...

Yeah, that is what pretty much happens with anything, be it comics, music, pro wrestling, anime, movies etc. When it's a niche interest, it's more creatively profound and respectful to its fan base. When it eventually becomes popular, whatever it is, it's all about money and trying to make more money while seemingly being neglectful towards everything else.

Well, I grew up in an area with no comic stores and my friends didn't really ever read comics either....so, I kind of understand those feelings. There are however, plenty of ways to read the old X-Men comics in the internet age.

@cattlebattle:

Yeah, that is what pretty much happens with anything, be it comics, music, pro wrestling, anime, movies etc. When it's a niche interest, it's more creatively profound and respectful to its fan base. When it eventually becomes popular, whatever it is, it's all about money and trying to make more money while seemingly being neglectful towards everything else.

Yeah and seeing fans snark for each other fandom's mistreatment gives it additional legitimization, I want to scream unity but it's impossible for everybody agree on everything, I mean that very second we'll most likely reach the next step in human evolution lol

Well, I grew up in an area with no comic stores and my friends didn't really ever read comics either....so, I kind of understand those feelings. There are however, plenty of ways to read the old X-Men comics in the internet age.

True, and sometimes internet reading is inevitable, but I've seen Claremont's full UXM omnibus was promoted post-SW so now I have a very tangible reason to wait for it!

Yeah, I still maintain that Nicieza and Lobdell had no clue what they were doing when they wrote the X-Men in the 90s.

To be honest I strongly dislike their runs. Especially if you read the Claremont stuff that came before it. It went from strong intelligent storytelling to over dramatic characters and overblown action scenes. Claremont actually had a way better Genosha story in the story line where he introduced it as an analogue for Apartheid in South Africa. The X-Men really sort of stagnated in the 90s, lots of convoluted stories packed with character stagnation and a severe lack of interesting villains. Don't get me wrong here, I started liking the X-Men in the 90s as well, but I fizzled out shortly after and didn't re spark my interest until the 2000s, mainly because I thought Nicieza and Lobdells work was so boring.

If you ever have the money.....or the free time, the best option to recommend would be signing up for Marvel Unlimited on Marvel.com. It is 10 (US dollars) a month and you can read Claremonts whole run along with most of his minis that accompany the run like the Magik solo, the first Wolverine solo with Frank Miller, The Avengers Annual where Rogue first appears, Wolverine and Kitty Pryde, etc. and you cancel anytime. So, hypothetically, depending on how fast you read, if you read the whole thing in two months it would only cost you twenty dollars....Of course, it's always better to just physically own the books. It also depends if you are more just interested in collecting them or if you just want to read them.

Yeah, sometimes I often have to question if I even really like the X-Men; or do I just like the overall concept and just Claremonts work on the titles? I agree with what you say about liking little tidbits and details here and there throughout the 90s, but overall, I don't really care for any of the stories that come out of it. I just remember that most of the good villains from the 1980s were redacted, in favor of one shot villains, pointless aliens and lots of infighting between the X-Men. It was so stale. Even to something like Morrisons work, I love Grant Morrisons books usually, but his work on the X-Men is more like an alternate version of the X-Men that makes fun of a lot of what was considered commonalities within the franchise....it basically could have just been an original work of Morrisons. The books since then I find have been overly commercialized, focusing more on which "Book shaking event" is going to happen on a yearly basis as opposed to just focusing on good stories and characters developments....things that Claremont did in the 80s, and actually continues to do whenever he returns to the title or one of its spin offs.

@cattlebattle:

If you ever have the money.....or the free time, the best option to recommend would be signing up for Marvel Unlimited on Marvel.com. It is 10 (US dollars) a month and you can read Claremonts whole run along with most of his minis that accompany the run like the Magik solo, the first Wolverine solo with Frank Miller, The Avengers Annual where Rogue first appears, Wolverine and Kitty Pryde, etc. and you cancel anytime. So, hypothetically, depending on how fast you read, if you read the whole thing in two months it would only cost you twenty dollars....Of course, it's always better to just physically own the books. It also depends if you are more just interested in collecting them or if you just want to read them.

You know I just checked out about the omnibus, and it's already a third volume of his runs' collections! Haha it's oversized and costs 100$, so I guess it's anything but NOT as simple as I thought it'll be, dam. But I hear what you say, it's a good idea, that I might eventually end up doing exactly this. Problem is, now that I'll be attending university (yep in my country it's the age when we do on the average) I don't think I can afford that (the omnibus) and I kind off really wanted that book.

Yeah, sometimes I often have to question if I even really like the X-Men; or do I just like the overall concept and just Claremonts work on the titles? I agree with what you say about liking little tidbits and details here and there throughout the 90s, but overall, I don't really care for any of the stories that come out of it. I just remember that most of the good villains from the 1980s were redacted, in favor of one shot villains, pointless aliens and lots of infighting between the X-Men. It was so stale. Even to something like Morrisons work, I love Grant Morrisons books usually, but his work on the X-Men is more like an alternate version of the X-Men that makes fun of a lot of what was considered commonalities within the franchise....it basically could have just been an original work of Morrisons. The books since then I find have been overly commercialized, focusing more on which "Book shaking event" is going to happen on a yearly basis as opposed to just focusing on good stories and characters developments....things that Claremont did in the 80s, and actually continues to do whenever he returns to the title or one of its spin offs.

I think it's the combination of both (incredible concept/passionate creators), the nature of never-ending continuation in comics sometimes forces the title to switch to a lesser storytelling from the superior one leaving us dealing with the consequences which might be absolutely atrocious, and still remain "in continuity" and then retcons come out to play! lol I'm not in a position to tell you about the "nature of comic books" what I'm just saying, while some creators did little justice, or even damaged the franchise, I want to say there are those who even after Claremont kept enriching and evaluating the brand. Of course to each his own, but I found Decimation era to be a very compelling time for the X-comics, I mean if it draws a 21 years old fella who just got one of his most hardcore reality checks back to reading comics again, I say it has to be not a bad storytelling at all don't you think? Haha

Another point, if Claremont is the greatest thing to happen to X-brand, he's also its Achilles Heel. I mean, it's his designs, just as you said, the franchise still can't get past, and basically what holds it grounded as everything he created has become mundane, retold and recycled, even recreated. DPS and DoFP as the perfect examples to it. Inevitable Deus Ex Machina and uncountable alternate "bad, very bad" futures where everything sucks. It's not that I blame him, it's that I blame those who overlook the reason why his run is valued so much.

You know, I had that theory, if at the same time Morrison would have taken the Ultimate X-men instead of the regular one, we might've been in a completely different position right now. Talking about Achilles Heels, X-men were this universe's one for sure, seeing how great Millar's Ultimates and Bendis' SM (I didn't read the last one, but I keep seeing it's still being heavily praised), Millar's take on the X's was totally uninspired. Now just think about it, Morrison taking on a new brand X-comic and shaping it the way he wishes, totally free to create and innovate like he loves to so much...

I think the Omnibuses are also not in color, which is weird considering comics are a visual, artistic medium....that might not bother some people, but it would annoy me.

Well, I am not saying that everything non-Claremont is bad. There are lots of runs, or in the very least, lots of small details in a lot of runs, that I like. I am just saying Claremont usually fights to get books like X-Treme X-Men-- where he doesn't have to go along with whatever "big event" the other writers are usually forced to write around and is able to tell a more interesting story where the X-Men feel like people living and reacting to a real world, as opposed to just a bunch of super hero drawings facing a new crisis every other month. Things like Peter Davids X-Factor, Morrisons New X-Men and Milligans X-Statix are also like this but, as I mentioned, they kind of feel like they could all exist in an alternate continuity with characters that the individual writers created. I suppose it all comes down to preference and how you perceive the X-Men continuity.