X-Force = Death Force???

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#1 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, so I've been reading the new X-Force run. I love it! We really get to see the dark side of the X-men. The thing I'm wondering about is this, are the X-men getting too close to Magnetos side of things?

Here scott is making this team of killers to go out and hunt down any Threats to mutants. What would happen if the puplic knew about this group?

#2 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

ooooo i love the new x-force. it even made me like cyclops yo. it has my two all time favorite characters in it too, wolverine and x-23.

#3 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah. I really like X23. She has alot of room to grow too. I wonder how her relationship with wolvie will play out

#4 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

yep. i have been really pleased with x-23's developement. she is such an interesting character. i'm eager to see what they will do with her

#5 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

In new xmen she seamed to be getting along better with people, but i think she has regressed since joining xforce. Dont laugh but id like to see something start with her and warpath.

#6 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

now by "start" do you mean they do the nasty or fight? both would be interesting even though x-23 is still supposed to be a teen

#7 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

lol well i think he is spoken for from the cat lady though. so that would be like a 2 comic fight lol

#8 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, maybe fight THEN do the nasty...

I think she's supposed to be 17. (maybe) But still, seeing as how she was a lady of the night, they might let it slide

#9 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, who do you think would win? And whats up with wolverines mood swings?

#10 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

And what do you think about them thinking along the lines of Magneto?

#11 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

x-23 would totally take it as soon as she wanted to. with wolverine, i think his mood swings are because he didn't want x-23 on the team originally and now with wolfsbane maybe loosing her innocence, which is why wolverine might be doing the x-force thing. you know? he does the bad stuff so others don't have to. and it seems like he sees that slipping away from someone he knew as a kid. i don't know though. this is just speculation. and i really like the magneto approach, although on a much more focused level.

#12 Posted by Longshot (312 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually like this book,so cool.Wolverine is the man in this one.

#13 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

Longshot speaks the truth.

#14 Posted by Dormath (2398 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the one and only team that Wolvie should be on. Love the book a great true read.

#15 Posted by ultra predator (21 posts) - - Show Bio

HOWABOUT WOLVERINE VS PREDATOR

#16 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

I really hope it will be more then just six comics...

#17 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

erik says:

"x-23 would totally take it as soon as she wanted to. with wolverine, i think his mood swings are because he didn't want x-23 on the team originally and now with wolfsbane maybe loosing her innocence, which is why wolverine might be doing the x-force thing. you know? he does the bad stuff so others don't have to. and it seems like he sees that slipping away from someone he knew as a kid. i don't know though. this is just speculation. and i really like the magneto approach, although on a much more focused level."

It looks to me that Wolvie can't decide if he wants to be a father type or a crazed killer. I think the xmen are being forced to see Magneto was right in some ways.

#18 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree.

#19 Posted by Copy (8336 posts) - - Show Bio

I stopped getting it after issue two. Did elixer show up in it?

#20 Posted by Fussel (4 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Logan doesn't give Laura that much help as he is supposed to. Anyone red the newest X-Force issue?

It is a "Kick to the guts!" for Laura.

And if I remind it right:

Elixir is just a "Deus Ex Machina."

Heals, when he's supposed to heal.

But don't get me wrong, the last three sentences are just my memories. So don't kill me if these are wrong. ;)
Post Edited:2008-06-04 23:05:05

#21 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

No. I think you are right Fussel. He is being hard on Laura. I really think it is because she gives up on her humanity more easily than Wolverine and that rubs him the wrong way.

#22 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

Fussel says:

"I think Logan doesn't give Laura that much help as he is supposed to. Anyone red the newest X-Force issue? It is a "Kick to the guts!" for Laura. And if I remind it right: Elixir is just a "Deus Ex Machina." Heals, when he's supposed to heal. But don't get me wrong, the last three sentences are just my memories. So don't kill me if these are wrong. ;)
Post Edited:2008-06-04 23:05:05"

Yeah, Captin America made it sound like Logan was supposed to teach Laura. You're right, in #4 he just beats her up. Then that just sends her into the self mutilation thing

#23 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

erik says:

"No. I think you are right Fussel. He is being hard on Laura. I really think it is because she gives up on her humanity more easily than Wolverine and that rubs him the wrong way."

Hmm, i don't think she knows any better though.

#24 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

laurax says:

"erik says:
"No. I think you are right Fussel. He is being hard on Laura. I really think it is because she gives up on her humanity more easily than Wolverine and that rubs him the wrong way."
Hmm, i don't think she knows any better though."

That is true. But it is obvious that she was learning to be more than just the dog. She made active decisions not to kill even before she met the x-men. In my opinion, there is a whole treasure chest of complexity waiting to be explored on Laura.

#25 Posted by laurax (47 posts) - - Show Bio

erik says:

"laurax says:
"erik says:
"No. I think you are right Fussel. He is being hard on Laura. I really think it is because she gives up on her humanity more easily than Wolverine and that rubs him the wrong way."
Hmm, i don't think she knows any better though."
That is true. But it is obvious that she was learning to be more than just the dog. She made active decisions not to kill even before she met the x-men. In my opinion, there is a whole treasure chest of complexity waiting to be explored on Laura."
Very true. I would like to see a run about wolvie and all his Extended family trying to work out there crazyness. does anyone know if Daken is really dead?
Post Edited:2008-06-05 09:58:31
#26 Posted by Fussel (4 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Laura gains that much "anger" from Wolvie, because she shows him his own weaknesses or failures. She isn't a pure killing machine anymore she used to be, that's right, but her "cold violence" reminds Wolvie of his past I think and raises a bit of self-hatred in him, so in my opinion that is the reason for his behaviour against Laura.

P.S.: Don't know about Draken, in fact I never read any issue involving him, so can anybody give me some tipps, where to read something essential about him?

#27 Posted by Calix (487 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know I don't think Wolverine is that hard on her. His dealing with her might be more on the nose than it was with let's say Kitty or Jubilee for that matter. but he can't really hurt her physically that is.

Emotionally I think both are minefields. with the others' he was sort of a big-brother/father-figure or cool uncle. With her he is technically father/brother and HE is the REASON she was born to begin with not to mention subjected to very brutal test and what not a a too young of age so GUILT is also waying very heavy on Logan's side.

Scott should not have put her back in her previous role. IT wasn't a life he wanted for her. For her it's the only thing she knows. Her reaction to things aren't out of calusness it's just logical to her. Wolverine needs to move from understanding that while he is a human who taught how to be a killing-machine she is a killing-machine who is now learning to be human to acting according. She has made improvements over her time with the New X-men but the one guy she had a thing for since her last vow not to pretty much died on her. Surprised she would revert to a black-ops team? Not really.

What set Wolverine off was her comment on Rahne not being up to it. Well truth of the matter is that Rahne isn't cut out for it, she shouldn't have been nowhere near there and being trained by Wolverine means that she should've in fact known better than to allow herself get caught. Logan should get his S#@t together and deal. He made a crap call again against his own training and Laura's logic which ended up costing Warren his wings and quiet possibly his mental state.

Logan being the man in X-force... hardly!

#28 Posted by Elixir95 (388 posts) - - Show Bio
laurax said:
"

Ok, so I've been reading the new X-Force run. I love it! We really get to see the dark side of the X-men. The thing I'm wondering about is this, are the X-men getting too close to Magnetos side of things?

Here scott is making this team of killers to go out and hunt down any Threats to mutants. What would happen if the puplic knew about this group?

"


Ever heard of the saying: "Magento was right"?
#29 Edited by Calix (487 posts) - - Show Bio

This one is a biggie but the first 5 Bold quotes (with the exception of 4b) were  Pania's replies to posters that I thought would be lost once CV 2.0 went on so I saved them

Pania 1ST Quote:
 Dude. Ask anyone here what happens to those that challenge me on X-Men knowledge. The X-Men is not G.I. Joe, which is a government sanctioned brigade in the U.S. Army. Rainbow is also a government sanctioned counter terrorism unit. Neither of these are superhero teams. And the X-Men is not sanctioned by the government to do anything. Nor are they closing in on shutting down the Stryker Crusade. they're just killing Purifiers. As you can see by our "success" in real life in stopping al Queda through military action, that really doesn't work all that well. Face it, X-Force is simply a terrorist unit for the mutant side of the argument. "

2ND Quote:

And PAD, X-Factor is actually the last X-men group that is actually acting like superheros: helping people.

No, I don't like this direction the X-Men are taking. It is as if Marvel is deliberately trying to deconstruct the X-Men as heroes for...what purpose I do not know. I guess they think it is "cool" and "extreme". But watching Cyclops running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, Wolverine failing as a man and a hero, and the two of them trying their damndest to drag the rest of the X-Men down with them is not entertaining to me.

3RD Quote:

Korg says:

I don't need to ask anyone. This is the way the X-Men have ALWAYS functioned.

No it is not.

In the early days, they were working on conjuction with the FBI. Later they were a unsacntioned super hero team that still helped people.

They were not completely wrapped up in gaining the upperhand in a genetic war by creating a wetworks team to assassinate people.

You might as well call them a terrorist organization. Wouldn't surprise me if you did, actually.

They are now.

How many times have they taken it upon themselves to handle similar situations? Magneto, The Brotherhood, The Acolytes, The Marauders, etc. These are terrorist groups/persons. The fact that the X-Men fight them on their own terms instead of trying to go through military channels automatically makes them terrorists?

No, the fact that they are assassinating people rather than responding to threats makes them a terrorist organization.

They have been a "terrorist" organization since their formation.

Again, no they were not. They were working in conjunction with the FBI.

Fighting Magneto at Cape Canaveral? Pure terrorism.

No, because they were responding to a threat with the government's permission. Magneto started that conflict, the X-Men asked asked the Army if they could help and the Army said "Yes."

Helps if you have actually read the issue.

And that's how a lot of their battle went down though most of their comic book careers. They stepped in with the authorities permission. They were not officially sanctioned like the Avengers were, but they usually had permission and cooperation from the commander on site of whatever government forces (be it police or military) were present.

After the handled the Dragon in Japan, the Emperor himself sent them home on his private aircraft.

To emphasize: check out Nightcrawler's religious extremism and terrorism in Divided We Stand.

I wasn't happy about that story either.

Check out Guido and Rahne's terrorist tactics in X-Factor #3.

Funny, I thought they told the cops to back off, I didn't know they killed anyone by launching sneak assaults on opposing groups.

That was a squabble over agency turf, not a attack.

4TH Quote:

Korg says:

"Agency turf? Telling cops to back off? What grants them that authority?

Val Cooper if I remember correctly.

You're granting them liberties that you aren't willing to grant the other teams. They are just as much vigilantes as any other X-Team. And Rahne may well have killed people in that brawl, there was certainly enough blood. Sounds to me like you're just down on the Anti-Reg side of things, really. The X-Men haven't worked in conjunction with the FBI or the army in ages. They have been branded outlaws for at least the past 2 decades. Any actions on their part could be viewed as terrorist activity. Did you stop reading X-Men in the late 60s/early 70s? Certainly seems like that's when you stopped liking them."

I started reading in 1980's, and they still were working with Government and police agencies through that period. Remember they were working with the cops to fight the Juggernaut in both New York and London. They also stayed in San Fransisco to help the authorities repair the damage caused by their Beyonder set up fight with Sentinels.

Once again, this is a big difference from creating a black ops team for assassination purposes.

4TH (b) Quote: <no response from Pania>
Korg Says:

When did Val Cooper give them that authority? Did she give Siryn authority to blow a dozen cops down the street? Sure sounds like terrorist activity to me. In fact in X-Factor #14 Val says she's the only person keeping Jamie out of jail, and that she's been running interference between the feds and X-Factor, and that she can't do that forever. In other words, they are operating outside of the law. Also, one of Madrox's dupes DID assassinate someone, but that's not exactly the same thing. Cyclops formed X-Force to do what he believed was necessary, since the government wasn't really doing their part to protect mutants, let alone take a proactive stance against anti-mutant groups. Take a look at the roster of villains that Bastion has assembled and infected with the t/o virus. You seriously think the government would touch that? It's their fault Bastion exists. Now he is posing a major threat to all mutants, and very possibly humans as well.

The government is not willing to work with the X-Men, so they did what they have been doing for ages, took things into their own hands. If you don't like it, well, don't buy the books. We can agree to disagree on the terrorist thing I suppose, as your beef is with the writers of the X-Books over the past couple decades (or at least the past 3-5 years).


5TH Quote:

Elemental says:

Korg, Pania has a point when it comes to X-Force but Pania it seems you are wrong about the hero thing. Have you been keeping up with Uncanny lately. Scott and Emma are trying to liberate the people of San Francisco from some sort of psi-talent or reality warper. Scott, Emma, Hank, Peter, Kurt, and Logan just helped Megan (Pixie) help the people of Wales (or was it the UK) and save them from the N'garai.

Stretching a point, they are trying to get their teammates back. I haven't seen them say a thing about freeing the people of San Francisco. That seems to be an incidental bonus to their real goals.

You can't just base the actions of the entirity of the X-Men upon X-Force. And it's not fair for you to criticize Cyclops like that.

How Cyclops completely losing it, making the most illogical conclusion as to the cause for the attack on the mansion possible, and spending all of Messiah CompleX one step behind everyone??

A true leader does what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, knows why it needs to be done and knows how it needs to be done WITHOUT BEING ASKED OR TOLD.

Yeah, but a TRUE leader would stop, sit, and consider the full ramification of his choices and actions. A TRUE LEADER would be proactive, not reactive as Scott has been in recent X-Pages.

Compare the Scott Summers of the Breakworld Arc in Astonishing to what Carey and Brubaker have done with him and tell me which one of them would you actually follow?

Now, I'm with you on the whole chicken thing but Wolverine is torn on this too. And that's not fair. His little sister is starting to become a tactiful, emotionless killer, a girl he has known she was about 13 is beginning to loose her innocence and faith, two things that have been staples with her, and I personally don't think he wants to do this or he regrets it. He is having a hard time right now and I think Yost and Kyle are doing an excellet job with writing this.

Granted, I have not been reading X-Force. Marvel switched my New X-Men subscription over automatically, and my LCBS let me turn them in for other titles.

However, if Logan is so torn by what is happening to Laura, then why doesn't he quit? Why does he not just pull them both out, tell Scott to go screw himself, and haul Laura back somewhere quiet where he can try to undo her programing?

Sure, I don't like the idea of X-Force and how they are keeping it from the X-Men and how they are going about doing things. They're essentially becoming hypocrites but, I know this is cliche, Magneto was right.

Magneto was right about a lot of things, but not his approach. Not this. This is doing nothing for mutant kind. Stryker is already dead and the Crusade and the Prufiers go on. Wouldn't that indicate that killing them is not going to stop the Crusade, that is must be attacked ideologically, politically in order to lose it's public and clandestine support?

And what X-Force is doing is what needs to be done.

X-Force is a panicked man's reaction to a scary situation. In all my years of reading the X-Men, I have never seen Scott lose it like this.

And no one else can do it. I'm torn on this myself. So you can't come down on Wolverine.

Yeah I can, because of all the X-Men Logan is the one who always spoke truth to power...and he's not doing it here.

I also really, really hate the rape of the Wolverine in the last twenty years. Wolverine used to be cool, the Marvel's original "Man With No Name", the "The Samuari who exceeded everyones expectations but his own." as Claremont defined him.

Now we have a jerk, an animal who has decided that being a better man is not worth striving for, who has Gawd only knows how many retconned backgrounds to chose from. Everything laid out on the table. No mystery, and nothing to admire about him.

They have destroyed that character.

And they are in the process of destroying Cyclops.

And the things concerning Cyclops...well, let's just say everytime I see him on panel, I raise an eyebrow in suspicion and curiosity. And the part about X-Force being terrorists. No offense, but you are wrong. The Purifiers are terrorists. X-Force are black ops mercenaries. Not terrorists. There is a fine line between terrorists and mercenaries.

No, there is a BIG line between terrorist and mercenaries, who are paid by outside parties to fight wars for them.

The X-Men are not being paid by someone else to fight a battle they have no vested interest in, so they are not mercenaries either.

Look it up in the dictionary, if you must. But again, no offense.

I think you were the one who should have looked it up in the dictionary before you put it in your post.

From Princeton.net:

~materialistic: marked by materialism ~mercenary(a): used of soldiers hired by a foreign army ~a person hired to fight for another country than their own ~mercantile: profit oriented; "a commercial book"; "preached a mercantile and militant patriotism"- John Buchan; "a mercenary enterprise"; "a moneymaking business"

Somehow, the X-Men don't fit any of these definitions.

So don't, just DO NOT try to lecture people who you do not know what you are talking about.

You kinda need to brush up on your X-History, just a tad bit. Again, no offense."

I'll repeat myself, do NOT try to lecture people, to gain some sort of false moral high ground, when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Terroist (From Princeton.net): terrorist (a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities)

Hrm...seems to fit X-Force, does it not? Granted, they aren't using religion...but they are organized in a small cell, and they are employing terror and violence as a weapon.

About the only thing they have not done that most consider part of the modern definition of "terrorism" is attack civilians...Yet (to my knowledge). But that is the only thing that have not done. In every other way they fit the definition of a terrorist group.


My response

If we are going to do this let's start with what constitutes a terrorist by definition.

Terrorism is (1) "the systematic us of terror especially as means of coercion." Internationally there is no legally agreed definition of this. Thou one of the modern definitions of it (2)is using violence against civilians to achieve political or ideological objectives by creating fear. Most common is(3) creating fear(terror) for an ideological goal and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants.

My point is that none of the above mentioned definitions match any faction of the X-men from its initial inception to-date (and this includes the X-force).

You’re saying that they used to work with the authorities and that was very admirable and such. As a well-versed reader of the X-men you would then be well-aware that this has continued their co-operations with authorities and they've kept doing so while the gen-pop didn't really know what to do about them (in spite being saved by them countless times) and a small but very loud not to mention extremely violent and deadly group declared open season on Mutants.

Not so long ago they were a sanctioned team with badge and everything and were hardly recognized by Gen-pop so let's forgo that land mine.

After the usage of Sentinels which left Genosha basically a burning rock they still had to suck it up and co-operate with the Authorities who stationed Sentinels with human pilots, some of them whom rather step on a mutant than help one. Need I remind you that it was under they very eyes of the Authorities you are so eager they co-operate with that they lost a busload of depowered mutant-kids. Targeted by the Purifiers who by the way fit all the definitions I've mentioned at the beginning. The Authorities were there when Stryker himself attacked the mansion with the very intention of killing the remaining student body and its faculty. They were in fact the ones whom had covered up the fact that a mutant had killed the beloved minister.

Guess what the Purifiers organization is a vast and hardly obscure yet not a single aspect of it had been shutdown. Again when the Purifiers committed an act of terrorism on that town in where they killed all the children and this includes babies because they might be a mutant.

Cyclops created a response team and its purpose was "to do things the X-men couldn't do" i.e. take on and shut down the Purifiers. Because the Authorities whom they gladly worked with/for in the past hadn't acted accordingly i.e. shutdown the Purifiers. Such a vast organization leaves a money and paper trail, I mean you did see the 'church'-storage massive hardware depot, yet they are still active.

X-factor is a vigilante team with very contentious ties to the authorities at best let's not kid ourselves.

X-Force black-ops mercenaries????

Mercenaries implies that they are for hire or at the very least offer their services at a price which is not the case with X-force.

More importantly this is hardly something new. Charles had several real black-ops agents doing work his precious X-teams, couldn't/wouldn't be allowed to do. Mystique was for a time one of them and so was Sage.

The Purifiers have powerful allies and pretend they are a church. The X-men can take them head-on but the very possible public backlash would either shatter mutant-human relations or put an impossible strain on it. That's a risk Scott can not take especially with the extremely low number of Mutants that currently walk the earth and he shouldn't either!

The authorities aren't doing their jobs for whatever reason. The Purifier threat however **needed** to be addressed. They can't be allowed to have cart-blanch on hunting mutants either, which is what they currently have.

Solution, make a Delta-team or the more popular term black ops-team to deal with a threat. Welcome to World-politics: the real truth behind the fiction. BTW Black Ops teams aren't exclusively for assassinations they are a team made up with one sole purpose above everything else, plausible deniability.

Make no mistake the Purifiers are a very deadly threat to everyone because of their complete and utter disregard for pretty much anything/else while pursuing their goal(s).

Summers may have been very reactionary during Messiah Complex but not without some merit so calling him a headless chicken would be a bit presumptuous.

Again Scott only asked X-23 to kill Riseman as he figures that the Purifier would loose their cohesive structure once they loose the head. Rahne was determined to get answers from the Purifiers in regards of her 'father' and she came to Scott with this. James was out for Purifier blood especially after Caliban's death. Wolverine was approached because he was the one most likely to keep them all alive and the one Scott trust the most to execute when necessary. 'No one can know' was the only thing that he said. How some people have derived that they were now separate from the X-men is beyond me.

" could have said no? Tell Scott of because he spoke the truth?" I'm paraphrasing but you get my intent. in fact did say No. Scott response was that it was that the team was already happening, his reasoning he wasn't going to wait to have another dead mutant on his doorstep. And you know what good for him it's about bloody time that the good guys stopped dying needlessly.

Your logic on how to dismantle i.e. stop the Purifiers is very enlightened as well as noble but more importantly very bloody for the wrong team. Such an organization isn't going to ever stop period! The why being that it's ideology doesn't come from a rational mind-set. Charles had been attacking the ideology by having the X-men and showing the world that their were mutants out there fighting to protect them from threats that both humans or other mutants posed and that clearly hasn't helped. So Scott's approaching things differently. He is done being a sitting duck during hunting season.

Assassinate is also a loaded term for it implies that Scott is sending X-23 to kill out of a political motivation or an ideological one or cash which we all know not to be true.

As for the comparison to Magneto my only response is puh-lease. Magneto was out for complete dominance of humans. He believed in terrorism because to him that is the only way humans can communicate or understand. Scott doesn't have anywhere near such a mind-set.

As for the whole hypocrisy thing can someone clarify how exactly does this pertain to Scott/X-force?

Terrorist (From Princeton.net): terrorist (a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities)

How and when have the X-force used terror(fear) as a political weapon. They inspire fear I will grant you as much; A big muscular man swinging two bitching bowie-knives, a were-wolf and two individuals that carry triple or double mounted blade a top their palms carving up a storm is scary but that is hardly political nor as you yourself pointed out is there religion involved which makes your particular quote mute.

#30 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

How nice for you all that most of my last responses were lost in the switchover.

Fact is: X-Factor has gov't approval, nor are they a hit squad so no, despite their clashes with the cops (and who gave the cops the right to draw down on X-Factor?) X-Factor is not a terrorist group.

Other facts. Mutant rights, survival, and mutants themselves are a political issue. They have been at least since Senator Kelley was introduced in Uncanny X-Men #133.

The Princeton definition of terrorism said "religion was often used", "often" meaning "not always"...the ETA,for example, is not a religious movement, but it certainly is a terrorist group. So as much as you may want to deny that definition it still stands.

Of course assassinate is a loaded term, and that is what Scott is doing. He created X-Factor as a wet works squad, an assassination team. Go in and kill. Bludgeon our enemies to death by violence so they back off.

Hrm, who does that sounds like?

As our "War on Terror" has proven in real life, attacking terrorists this way does not work. Check the State Department website, terrorist attacks have quintupled since we began our "war on terror". al Queda is alive and thriving. (That's the real "ugly real world" that you can't get from a video game or Fox News) This is also proven in the M.U. when Stryker was killed and the Purifiers went on. All Scott is doing is endangering the remaining few mutants to kill people coming from an almost unlimited resource, while playing into the Stryker crusade's hands by conducting a clandestine war, which simply is NOT going to do mutants any favors in the eyes of the public went it it hits the news. If Scott really wants to start hamstringing the Purifiers, he should instead turn his attention on the Gov't, who is letting a bunch of very violent loose cannons run around the country and kill any number of U.S. citizens all to get to mutants. The fact that the Purifiers are still operating after wiping out an entire town in Alaska just to get at one infant in fact is pretty stupid plot wise and something Scott needs to look into. He needs to start cutting the Purifiers off at the source.

(Actually the biggest piece of "Plot Induced Stupidity" is why the heck are the X-Men still in the U.S.? O:ZT, being ghettoized in the Xavier Estate by O*N*E, and the SHRA isn't enough? And since they are staying, why don't they join the anti-reg side and start making some alliances with the rest of the superhero community rather than trying to go it alone, fight off the Purifiers by themselves?)

So not only is what Cyclops doing terrorism, it's a stupid exercise in futility.

Fact is I just threw a big moral monkey wrench in your enjoyment of mindless Wolverine generated gore.

#31 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

Fact is, you're comparing comic books to real life situations and terrorist organizations when it is perfectly clear that it is not the writers' intent. You're reading into, and projecting onto, X-Force. You have your own political views, and that's well and fine. When you try to apply that kind of logic to comic books, you'll find it just doesn't fit. The very nature of terrorism is incredibly different in the Marvel U due to the presence of meta-humans. As I've said multiple times, the X-Men act outside the law on a daily basis, and fit the terms you set out for a terrorist cell perfectly. 


Also: Not only is X-Factor NOT government-sanctioned, they came out openly in opposition of the SHRA, which is more than the X-Men did. Val Cooper had been covering for them, and even she didn't know how long that would last. Out of all the X-Groups, I would argue that X-Factor probably operates outside of the law more than any other team, other than X-Force. At least the X-Men were neutral while they were together. You might not like it, but that's how it is.

Trying to impose your viewpoint on morality on fictional characters in a world where para-military groups of super-heroes like X-Force can exist is also pretty silly.
#32 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
Korg said:
"Fact is, you're comparing comic books to real life situations and terrorist organizations when it is perfectly clear that it is not the writers' intent. You're reading into, and projecting onto, X-Force. You have your own political views, and that's well and fine. When you try to apply that kind of logic to comic books, you'll find it just doesn't fit. The very nature of terrorism is incredibly different in the Marvel U due to the presence of meta-humans. As I've said multiple times, the X-Men act outside the law on a daily basis, and fit the terms you set out for a terrorist cell perfectly. 

Also: Not only is X-Factor NOT government-sanctioned, they came out openly in opposition of the SHRA, which is more than the X-Men did. Val Cooper had been covering for them, and even she didn't know how long that would last. Out of all the X-Groups, I would argue that X-Factor probably operates outside of the law more than any other team, other than X-Force. At least the X-Men were neutral while they were together. You might not like it, but that's how it is.

Trying to impose your viewpoint on morality on fictional characters in a world where para-military groups of super-heroes like X-Force can exist is also pretty silly.
"
And funny that no one has shown up  on their doorstep to haul them in to the Initiative, don't you think? Like Tony showed up on the doorstep of the X-Mansion? The X-Men are not neutral, Tony made that very pretty clear.

Maybe because X-Factor already falls under Gov't auspices, maybe?

Like Val Cooper's?

X-Force is not realistic in the real world and it's not realistic in the Marvel world. Stryker is DEAD. And it didn't slow down the Purifiers one whit. So how many more of them do the X-Men have to kill? For every mutant Scott can throw at the Purifiers, the Purfiers can throw thirty at him. For every martyr the X-Men make, the Purfiers can recruit ten new members. And how many mutants does Scott have at his disposal?

And weren't you guys the one that brought "real world ugliness" into this discussion in the first place? How things "really work"?




#33 Posted by The Enigma (1882 posts) - - Show Bio
Pania said:
"Korg said:
"Fact is, you're comparing comic books to real life situations and terrorist organizations when it is perfectly clear that it is not the writers' intent. You're reading into, and projecting onto, X-Force. You have your own political views, and that's well and fine. When you try to apply that kind of logic to comic books, you'll find it just doesn't fit. The very nature of terrorism is incredibly different in the Marvel U due to the presence of meta-humans. As I've said multiple times, the X-Men act outside the law on a daily basis, and fit the terms you set out for a terrorist cell perfectly. 

Also: Not only is X-Factor NOT government-sanctioned, they came out openly in opposition of the SHRA, which is more than the X-Men did. Val Cooper had been covering for them, and even she didn't know how long that would last. Out of all the X-Groups, I would argue that X-Factor probably operates outside of the law more than any other team, other than X-Force. At least the X-Men were neutral while they were together. You might not like it, but that's how it is.

Trying to impose your viewpoint on morality on fictional characters in a world where para-military groups of super-heroes like X-Force can exist is also pretty silly.
"
And funny that no one has shown up  on their doorstep to haul them in to the Initiative, don't you think? Like Tony showed up on the doorstep of the X-Mansion? The X-Men are not neutral, Tony made that very pretty clear.

Maybe because X-Factor already falls under Gov't auspices, maybe?

Like Val Cooper's?

And X-Force is not realistic in the real world and it's not realistic in the Marvel world. Stryker is DEAD. And it didn't slow down the Purifiers one whit. So how many more of them do the X-Men have to kill? For every mutant Scott can throw at the Purifiers, the Purfiers can throw thirty at him. For every martyr the X-Men make, the Purfiers can recruit ten new members. And how many mutants does Scott have at his disposal?




"
I agree with what your saying about the Purifiers, and you are indeed correct about X-Factor, but its no longer just about the fight against them: the stakes are higher now that Bastion is in the game. If the X-men can kill all of the Purifier officials then they would effectively severe the system making it easier for them to kill the remaining.
#34 Edited by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

X-Factor directly opposes the SHRA, they don't have any deal with Val Cooper. They are not government agents, they do not operate under the auspices of the government. The reason Tony has showed up on their doorstep is because they aren't on his radar, thanks in part to Val Cooper, who is running interference "for old times' sake". Stryker is also back from the dead, as you would know if you had been reading X-Force.

#35 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

Pania. Aside from it being about super powered individuals, how is X-Force not realistic?

#36 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
Korg said:
"X-Factor directly opposes the SHRA, they don't have any deal with Val Cooper. They are not government agents, they do not operate under the auspices of the government. The reason Tony has showed up on their doorstep is because they aren't on his radar, thanks in part to Val Cooper, who is running interference "for old times' sake". Stryker is also back from the dead, as you would know if you had been reading X-Force."
If i remember correctly, didn't Val try to get Guido to sign on as a special representative? And would the interference she is running, combined with the lack of Tony showing up on X-Factor's doorstep (it's not like their HQ is hidden) indicate that there IS a certain amount of cooperation between X-Factor and the Gov't.

And again, X-Factor is not a hit squad the way X=Force is. 

And Stryker was dead for a while...and the Purifiers went on their merry way. That's terrorism for you. You can kill off the leader, the head of the organization...and you just make a martyr of him to rally new recruits for someone else to step into his shoes. Even if X-Force kills Stryker and Bastion, that's not going to stop the Purifiers.

Erik said:

<blockquote>Pania. Aside from it being about super powered individuals, how is X-Force not realistic?</blockquote>

Not so much "unrealistic" as utterly stupid.  The U.S. has been fighting a "War on Terror" for 6 years now, and al Queda is thriving. According to the State Dept. terrorist attacks have quintupled. And as I have observed above, for every Purifier the X-Men kill, for every martyr to the Stryker Crusade X-Force makes, the Purifiers can recruit ten more people. Compared to the 198, the Purifiers have an unlimited resource of manpower to draw from. How many do mutants have? 

Then there is the war in the press: If Stryker or Bastion decided to go public with the X-Men's activities, showing the dead bodies of Stryker Crusade member on the nightly news while decrying "those awful satan spawn", the Public reaction to a mutant group conducting a clandestine war on American soil against a religious movement would be catastrophic for mutants.

Meanwhile, Mutants are on the edge of extinction, and Scott is throwing them into a battle they cannot win. He is even training the kids up to fight a battle they cannot win. While ignoring A. Trying to correct M-Day (If rather sadly amusing to go back and read how proactive the X-Men were in the story arc in which the High Evolutionary erased the X-Gene, and how apathetic about it they are now) B. Allies in the press. J.Jonah Jameson was quite prepared to take Bastion on during O'ZT, and if the X-Men could reveal the government connection that the allows the Purifier to wipe out an entire town of humans to get at one mutant without any kind of rebuttal from either the justice or intelligence communities, that would be such a black eye on the Gov't that they would be forced to cut ties with the Purifiers, possibly even put their leader in prison to appease the public outcry. People may hate mutants, but they are not going to look kindly on someone who is wiling to kill thousands of humans to get to one mutant. Even those in the Stryker Crusade will turn away from them. Once the gov't connection is severed, if the Purifiers still exist, they are not going to have the same latitude of action that they enjoy now. C. Allies in the anti-reg forces. Why are the X-Men taking this on alone? The rest of the superhero community is finally beginning to feel the prejudice mutants have been experiencing for decades, so why aren't the X-men talking to them? Getting their help? 

There are three effective ways to attack terrorism: 1. limit their resources: money, weapons, people. 2.  limit their movement, hiding places, freedom of action, 3. turn the public against them. By achieving the third goal: you achieve the first two. 

The X-Men are not doing anything that would actually stop the Purifiers, they're just engaging in a war of reprisal. "You hit me, so I'm going to hit you harder...and hope you don't hit me harder back." As history has shown many, many times, that doesn't work. 

And it also defines X-Force as a terrorist group. It's a terrorist group created in response to another terrorist group, but it is still a terrorist group all the same. 
#37 Edited by SPYDeR13 (5 posts) - - Show Bio

First off let me say that I love the new X-Force comics. They show the darker side of the X-Men and the mutant world that we as fans haven't really seen before.

I am shocked that Scott would build this team, he has always been firmly against killing. So for him to be so concerned about this issue that he would build this team scares me a little. Seeing as Scott has seen all of the big villains at there worst and not felt the need to build a team like X-Force tells me that he is either losing it or is scared to death.

As far as the team goes it's a great team. Logan is the man, period! I do like Warpath from the older X-Force comics more than his recent incarnation. He just seems too rushed into his darker role. I also think that this series could be the defining role for X-23. Marvel could either force her character or let her slip into her role , which I think is more like a new age Wolverine.

How every they decide to take the series it's cool to see that Marvel has the balls to do something like this with the X brand.

#38 Posted by Ripcord (1309 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder who will be added to the team as the series goes on. Archangel??? Shatterstar??? Domino???

#39 Posted by Calix (487 posts) - - Show Bio


This discussion with you is becoming tedious because you seem to have already drawn your own conclusion and refuse to see another person's therefore this to and fro  with you is... how did you so cleverly put it… ah yes ‘a stupid exercise in futility’  hence I leave you to your own....

#40 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio
Talking down to people generally makes you look like a fool.

Speaking of not reading...

Pania
said:
The Princeton definition of terrorism said "religion was often used", "often" meaning "not always"...the ETA,for example, is not a religious movement, but it certainly is a terrorist group. So as much as you may want to deny that definition it still stands.

And as I have pointed out twice before, mutants have been a political issue (just as Armenians are a political issue) at least since Senator Robert Kelley appeared in Uncanny #135. 

And actually, Scott just attacked a bunch of cops. ;-)

No X-Force has not targeted civilians, yet. Other than that they fulfill all the requirements for a terrorist group. Doesn't matter who drew first blood in this discussion, X-Force is still a wetworks squad organized to assassinate people. When someone other than the goverment is doing that sort of thing, we call them terrorists.

And it is not "inconsistent thinking" to think that the X-Men should be focusing their attention on finding the Purifier-Gov't connection. When they find it, they can hand over the proof to J. Jonah Jameson who will eat up the fact that the Gov't is in bed with a terrorist group who massacred a human town with a ladle.  The Bugle will raise such a public stink that the Gov't will be forced to fire, if not arrest, whomever made the decision to support the Purifiers, greatly reducing their freedom of action (as they would most likely be outlawed)  as well as possibly their funds and weapon resource. It will also cut into their recruitment base and the funds donated to the Stryker Crusade by "John Q Mutant Hating American Public."

But no...Scott isn't waiting until another body hits his doorstep, he's sending his limited number of mutants out to be killed right away while ignoring avenues of action that would actually curtail the Purifiers as a whole.

And if the U.S. Gov't had incarcerated me, my friends, my family in a death camp, that would be the end of my U.S. citizenship, as it was the end for European citizenship for many Jews before and after WWII. When a country reaches that point, it is not worth saving.

Besides, it's not the first time the X-Men have relocated outside of the country when things got rough, remember?

And just because I do not agree with you, that does not mean I do not read the comic. I have displayed more hard X-Knowlege than all of you in the opposition combined. So childish whining about "You don't know, yer not a real fan, cuz' you don't agree with me. " combined with even more childish insults to my intelligence is not doing your side of the argument any favors.

#41 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

 X-Factor #10 Daily Bugle headline: X-Factor to Gov't: DROP DEAD. Sub-headline: Unpatriotic Mutant Team Protests Registration Act.


Yeah, they totally cooperate with the government. You made so many wild assumptions in your last post that I'm not even going to address them individually. The way you see things, 6 issues from now all mutants will be dead. The Purifiers and Bastion have harnessed the power of Magus. You think the government even has the capabilities to deal with this threat even if they wanted to? The only way would be to put Initiative teams on it. Even then, Bastion would likely just kill anyone with important information and go into hiding so he could start again.

Seriously, if X-Force is causing you this much grief, just stop reading it. The writers will obviously bring about an end to the conflict that is nothing like what you're suggesting. Not even sure what you're playing at anymore.
#42 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

The SHRA was law, the massacre of an entire town is not.

And all I talking about was cutting off the Purfier's gov't support, greatly weakening their ability to act as well as cutting much of their resources.

I'm not saying stopping the Purifiers is bad (and if the threat is that big, why aren't the X-Men devoting more manpower to it? I mean, X-Force is literally a collection of the physically weakest members of the X-Men. Going up against two advanced technological beings and not an energy wielder to be found), I'm saying creating an assassination team is a stupid idea that will not slow the Purifiers down, let alone stop them

You said it yourself, "Bastion will likely just go into hiding so he could start again."

It's not alike anyone on that team actually has the capacity to kill Bastion.

#43 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio

Pania, I wasn't attacking you. I just wanted further explaination, which you did an extremely good job doing. Now while I don't agree with everything you have stated, I think you have some really valid points.

#44 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

I understand where you are coming From Erik, no worries. :-) Disagreeing with me I have no problems with, and thanks. :-)

#45 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sure X-Force will bungle the job and the mutant race will be doomed. The whole point of the book isn't for them to overcome odds and defeat a seemingly invincible foe. Stuff like that never happens in comic books. It's not like they brought Bastion back specifically so he could serve as the main foe of X-Force... that wouldn't make any sense, cause there's no way they could beat him. Kyle and Yost are clearly very near-sighted.

#46 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sure they will figure out something, it is after all comic books, but from on objective standpoint, it just adds to the stupidity of Scott's decision. I mean, really, if you had all the X-Men to chose from to take on the Purifiers would you create a team comprised only of the slashy people?

#47 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

He didn't have all the X-Men to choose from. That is the whole point. There are not many X-Men that would sign up for this, or allow it to go on if they knew about it. Hence Scott saying "Nobody can know." Obviously a powerhouse like Iceman would make pretty quick work of most of the purifiers, but he's one of the original 5, of which Scott is the only one willing to do what is necessary. Although according to a lot of Iceman topics on these forums, he should be on X-Force, as he is an unstoppable killing machine. Also: The point of X-Force is to be a black-ops team. A knife is a lot stealthier than a gun. Similarly, "slashy" people also have the advantage of being more stealthy than powerhouses who's energy signatures can be read for miles around.

#48 Posted by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, but when you are going up against a guy with a gun, you want a gun yourself, which one of many reasons why Scott's approach to the Purifier is all wrong. I mean, the entire fact that "no one can know" indicates that maybe he is not making the most rational decisions...

#49 Posted by Calix (487 posts) - - Show Bio

 Okay do they even know that they are up against Bastion or Magnus for that matter? Do they have any reason to assume that either could be involved with the Purifiers or for that fact that they still pose a threat. Magnus was left at the bottom of the deepst oceanic floors because their wouldn't be any technology for him to assimilate i.e. still pose a threat. Bastion was destroyed by all acounts and SHIELD had it's head again the X-men couldn't have known this. For the same reason that they DIDN'T know that SHIELD Northstar after they thought he died until he popped up during children of the vault arc.

Scott wouldn't have send them in had there been anyway he was aware of these variables this isn't Charles were dealing with. It's just not how he opperates. Besides this isn't the first time we ever hear of 'clandestine' X-men operatives. Charles had Sage undercover within the Helfire Club for years He also had employed Mystique for a duration after one of his other black-ops agent fell of the map.

Rational is plausible deniability. Certain things like a delta team you just don't want associated withothers, i.e. a school for gifted students.  this isn't to say that there won't be a link. but it makes denying involvement plausible.

#50 Edited by Pania (1759 posts) - - Show Bio

Even only thinking he was sending a team up against the Purifiers, X-Force is desperately undergunned. And if what Scott is doing is so right, is the best thing for everyone, why does he need plausible deniability?

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