At the end and there are people that will argue it was just a figment of his imagination (I am not one of those people), but all in all outside of people cherry picking what they wanted to remember about the Phoenix during the event, Jean was not really part of the story IMO.

@lordofallhumans: teen jean had two dreams about her turning dark phoenix. i wouldnt mind her going phoenix but dark phoenix would be too much. In no more humans, scott said when jean had the power of the phoenix that it had empathy and its not from the phoenix, it was from jean.

You'd have dreams about going dark Phoenix too if you were a telepath and all everybody thought when they looked at you was you going dark Phoenix. Of course the empathy came from Jean, if the Phoenix was an empathic being emotions would not have been such foreign concepts to it when it first decided to take on flesh.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind Jean to return as Jean Grey and not as Phoenix. Is the reason why she is been gone for so long and die come back, die come back, and die come back is really sicking. I want Jean Grey, oh yes badly. I miss her and I will be a hypocrite if I wouldn't. But Jean as Jean without the Phoenix. If only a strange alien can take that Phoenix and absorbed it and take it away with him or her. I think it will be the only solution for Jean to be able to return. I mean, come ON, why it has to always be Jean? I just don't get why punish her for so long. Shame Marvel. Shame.

the phoenix lives in a place called the white hot room which is i the nexu of all reality waiting to heal yourself where adult jean is. so yeah adult jean we be back

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

Indeed it isn't certain: Scott saw a indistinct female shape, that he didn't recognize like Jean. In fact he had to ask if she was Jean and she didn't answered: «Yes, I am». So we can only suppose that she could be Jean, but we haven't proof of that. On the contrary in All New X-Men 26 Scott talk about Dead Jean with Young Jean and he talk of his wife like if she is totally dead. Then I suppose that I didn't meet Jean during Avengers versus X-Men, but only a manifestation of Phoenix, because if he meet Jean in the White Hot Room, I don't think he would a dialogue like this with Teen Jean:

Gallery

Because those are hard words, able to devastate the psychic of a girl, better than a bomb is able to devastate her body and we have also to remind that Scott is perfectly conscious about the destiny of Dead Jean like embodiment of Phoenix. Their last dialogue in Phoenix endsong is very explanatory about that.

In my opinion all the clues seem suggest that Dead Jean is really erased by the Marvel Universe.

@ec2277 said:

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

but adult jean was in avx when she told scott to let go of the phoenix

Indeed it isn't certain: Scott saw a indistinct female shape, that he didn't recognize like Jean. In fact he had to ask if she was Jean and she didn't answered: «Yes, I am». So we can only suppose that she could be Jean, but we haven't proof of that. On the contrary in All New X-Men 26 Scott talk about Dead Jean with Young Jean and he talk of his wife like if she is totally dead. Then I suppose that I didn't meet Jean during Avengers versus X-Men, but only a manifestation of Phoenix, because if he meet Jean in the White Hot Room, I don't think he would a dialogue like this with Teen Jean:

Gallery

Because those are hard words, able to devastate the psychic of a girl, better than a bomb is able to devastate her body.

In my opinion all the clues seem suggest that Dead Jean is really erased by the Marvel Universe.

His wife is dead physically and he has the body hidden away to prove it, but he is also aware that she bonded with the Phoenix as he was the last person to talk to her about it in Endsong. Who else would be speaking to him about the Phoenix when we all know that in the afterlife she has merged with it? If Jean is merged with the Phoenix then she would be considered a manifestation of the Phoenix, so if a manifestation of the Phoenix appeared to him, how could it not be Jean?

Marvel just did a story showing Jean in the White Hot Room, and since there is only one White Phoenix Jean which is the Jean of 616 and only one White Hot Room in all of Marvel, it's safe to say she has not been erased from the Marvel Universe, that and the fact that they keep talking about her.

@lordofallhumans: Yes, a story of a alternative reality. I was talking about Earth 616.

616 Jean is White Phoenix, the story happened in an alternate reality, White Phoenix was in the White Hot Room, the Nexus of all realities making the story canon for Jean. You know how there is only one M'Kraan crystal and only one LT so anytime you see them it's the same one no matter the reality you see them in making the story canon for them? Same rule applies to White Phoenix Jean because there is only one and that one is 616 Jean and the fact that it happened in the nexus of all realities. So regardless of the reality that Scott was from that Jean is 616 meaning they have not erased her from Marvel at all.

Meh, Jean has the Phoenix too much. We know she keeps screwing up with it. Give someone else the chance. Hey! Give it back to Rachel! She was great with that thing.

@lordofallhumans said:

I don't like that explanation, because Scott was in the White Hot room and if his speak about his wife like a dead, it means he haven't find Jean in that place.

In fact I think that the Jean of the anniversay's story, was the Jean of that reality, not the Jean of Earth 616. Just like the also the Jean of Earth 811 (the mother of Rachel) was an embodiment of the Phoenix, the Jean came from another reality in "No more humans" and others Jean of others realities.

P.S. Oh my God! For how the writers are describing the bond between Phoenix and Jean, it seems to me more like the bond between me and a steak, rather a bond between a superior entity and its embodiment and I don't like this feel.

Eight months later...

@rubear: What story are that?

Incursions and intrigue. That from current Avengers 38.

@rubear: Thank you.

I don't think that egg is the Adult Jean's egg, because her resurrection would wane all interests about Teen Jean and Bendis is working hard on her; too hard to suppose he want abandon her. Rather I think she and the others Original 5 won't go back in their past soon.

Jean has only been the Phoenix once from Planet X until and she saved the universe with it. Even if you count her being the Phoenix after it was retconned that she wasn't she saved the multiverse then. This is what I'm talking about, people not wanting Jean and the Phoenix connected based on them not even knowing anything about her and it's connection.

Who cares if you like it or not. You said Marvel erased Dead Jean Grey and they did not because she is right there in the White Hot Room because 616 Jean (Dead Jean) is the only Jean Grey on panel to become White Phoenix in the Nexus of all realities, which is closed off by the M'Kraan crystal which is a singular object in the multiverse based on it being the door to the Nexus which is the White Hot Room. Why is it strange to speak about a dead person like they are dead? Physically Jean Grey is dead and he hasn't physically seen her in over ten years, and the Scott in the scan is not the same Scott in 616.

There is only one White Phoenix of the Crown and it is 616 Jean, White Phoenix doesn't just deal with 616 directly she also deals with alternates of it like HCT, that was an alternate reality that she amputated so that it would never be a possible future of 616, she then turned back time to 616 to make sure Scott stayed with the X-men. There is only one main Phoenix Force and the White Hot Room is it's heart, so when Jean merged with the Phoenix she merged with the whole multiversal force not just the Phoenix from her reality.

I'm not understanding your comparison. You and steak can merge and amputate timelines? You and steak are meant for each other because your soul is craved from the same cloth as steak? What is that supposed to mean?

@lordofallhumans said:

Yes, Marvel said that, but its explanation don't seem satisfactory to me, because I see in their many lacks. Maybe I will explain what are these lacks, but not today.

Besides Scott know perfectly the destiny of Jean after Phoenix Endsong. I know she isn't properly dead, but she is ascent to the White Hot Room like White Phoenix. So I don't think he would talk with those terms about Adult Jean, if he weren't certain about her definitely death. Not only physically, but also psychically.

Obviously these are only my opinion and the writers will be able to proof I am wrong, if they want.

I don't want convince anyone, I wanted only explain my thought. I did it and because I have reach my goal, I don't want continue to bore you and the others users.

;-)

I get that you don't like the explanation, but it is what is and Jean does exists as the White Phoenix on higher plane of existence, if she was erased nobody would be talking about her and Jeen would not be so traumatized about her future which is obviously inevitable as adult Scott does not have any memory of them traveling to the future as their younger selves..

People don't die psychically though, Marvel has too many afterlives for use to think physical death means non-existence, and too many mutants that can survive physical death by taking another state of being. The White Hot Room is the before-life for all future souls and the afterlife for Phoenixes. Jean Grey is dead, as in her body is not alive, so why talk about her as if she is alive when he knows she is dead and has had her dead body hidden? They have been talking about her like she was dead since she died, because she is dead.

@lordofallhumans: As usual I have the unpleasant feeling to have explained what I think, but not how I should do it and from the answers of all of you, I understand my thoughts seem different than they really are.

It isn't nice, believe me.

@lordofallhumans: You're trying to write the Phoenix as a FORCE OF PASSION and only that...but the Phoenix a passion of life and death...

I typed the rest of the reply in response to your Maddie thing you wrote in the second scan...

Hey, no one needs to be proved wrong, isn't this the idea of forums, to discuss ideas???

@rubear said:

Eight months later...

was this for real? or is this fan made?

@lordofallhumans: in avx when scott was like "i....jean? I" she said "im here now, let go"

i know avx cross my heart, so yeah i think he knows it was jean

jean knows thats scott

@hopesummersforthefuture: as i said before, it is from Avengers 38. So yeah, it seems that it will be for real.

what else did it say about the phoenix egg or was that it?????

Is adult Jean even back yet? Or was she ever even revived?

Not much. Sunspot came to talk with Beast, Illuminaty, about incursions. Firstly he talked with Scott, now leader of Nation X. Scott mentioned that "we have our own... ideas about how to stop what is happening and have no time for distractions", "if i'll be honest... all makes me think about is starting a fire", "this is not the future we deserved", and than mentioned this "phoenix egg". That Beast came, and Scott walked away. Beast confessed to Sunspot about Illiminaty plans. Oh, did i mentioned that Sunspot bought AIM and now has his own team of Avengers?)
- This is a very dangerous man, doctor McCoy.
- Yes. A man of times, one might say. (c)

@rubear: ty

I said...

The Phoenix has been described as many things one is the passion of creation itself and destruction as well

How is that me limiting it's description. The Phoenix is a force, as stated by Death, so if she is the passion of creation and destruction and life and death she is indeed a force of passion.

Sinister cloned Jean to create Maddie because he wanted the Ultimate mutant... When Maddie "failed to work" he sort of ditched her, but the Phoenix sensed "Jean" (in fact Maddie) and gave Maddie Jean's memories becuase at that time, Jean was supposedly dead...

You mean this? That Phoenix didn't give Maddie the memories because Jean was supposedly dead, the Phoenix knew Jean wasn't dead because the Phoenix is the one that placed her in suspended animation to heal at the bottom of the bay. Maddie got what she got from the Phoenix because Jean rejected it.

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

@lordofallhumans: in avx when scott was like "i....jean? I" she said "im here now, let go"

i know avx cross my heart, so yeah i think he knows it was jean

jean knows thats scott

I didn't say she wasn't in it I said that many predicted that it would be another Phoenix story that would have nothing to do with Jean like Warsong, and acknowledged she was at the end, I said there are people that have argued that it was figment of his imagination and that I was not one of those people.

It is played out. They need to Frozen that business and "Let It Go". It sounds though, with the interviews about Axis that they are most likely bringing the Phoenix back in this storyline. They commented that they are using a "device" that did not go over so well the last time it was used as a plot device and pulling it back out of the closet to use in this storyline...along with a character that has not been seen since the first issues (Quire?). It has been a couple of years since the entity has had it's moment so my first jump when right to this.

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

@lordofallhumans: in avx when scott was like "i....jean? I" she said "im here now, let go"

i know avx cross my heart, so yeah i think he knows it was jean

jean knows thats scott

Thank you.

You are right, I don't remembered well that dialogue.

Then there is a lack in the storytelling: why Old Scott should say that Old Jean is dead to Young Jean, if he know that she isn't properly dead?

In this way he obtain the only result to scare her without reason, when theoretically he would like to help her. Yet he know very well the future which attend a Teen Jean terrorized by Phoenix: became Xorn Jean and die trying to kill the young herself in the end of Battle of the Atom. For me it is makes no sense.

Anyway this don't change what I tried to say before: if I read the books, I get the idea that Old Jean is definitively dead. It is a wrong idea, but it is what seem reading the dialogue in All New X-Men.

@ec2277 said:

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

@lordofallhumans: in avx when scott was like "i....jean? I" she said "im here now, let go"

i know avx cross my heart, so yeah i think he knows it was jean

jean knows thats scott

Thank you.

You are right, I don't remembered well that dialogue.

Then there is a lack in the storytelling: why Old Scott should say that Old Jean is dead to Young Jean, if he know that she isn't properly dead?

In this way he obtain the only result to scare her, without reason. When theoretically he would like to help her.

Anyway this don't change what I tried to say before: if I read the books, I get the idea that Old Jean is definitively dead. It is a wrong idea, but it is what seem reading the dialogue in All New X-Men. Yet he know very well the future which attend a Teen Jean terrorized by Phoenix: became Xorn Jean and die trying to the young herself in the end of Battle of the Atom. To me it is makes no sense.

She is "properly" dead, her soul is no longer in her body, it's in the White Hot Room bonded with the Phoenix. The White Hot Room is an afterlife, a place where the souls of Phoenix hosts and the avatar go when their physical life is over, they are all just waiting for their life cycle to start again. There is no reason for him to say she is anything but dead because physically she is dead. Did you read the sisterhood story? It was all about Maddie trying to get her hands on the corpse of Jean so that she could have a vessel strong enough to support her own resurrection. Xorn Jean is not the future she is a possible future, Jeen does not have to become that, especially if she get's back to when she belongs.

@lordofallhumans: She isn't properly dead because she live in the White Hot Room. Her life isn't physical, but she is alive. The common idea of the death is something permanent, definitively, without possibility to resurrection. All that things aren't true for Old Jean, then she isn't properly dead.

Now I think I have correctly explained my thought. I understand you are a different opinion than me, about the way the characters understand the concept of death in the Marvel Universe: in my opinion a character should understand that concept exactly like us in the real word, unless it doesn't has experience able to change its opinion. Teen Jean didn't had that kind of experience, but Old Scott had that kind of experience, then he know that the dead of Old Jean isn't properly, in the way that Teen Jean can understand the concept of dead. Moreover he know that his wife isn't in the hell or in another similar place, but she has ascended to the White Hot Room, like Jesus ascended to the Heaven and this is a fact of capital importance so that Teen Jean can correctly understand her destiny.

There aren't possibility for you to convince me that you are reason and I don't want convince anyone. Then I leave this discussion, because I think it has been going on too long and I don't want bore the other users anymore.

Not in Marvel because resurrection is possible. In Marvel dead means your soul has left your body and gone to an afterlife, until something can bring you back. Jean's soul has left her body, and is in an afterlife. She is only alive in the technical sense not the literal one as defined by Marvel.

What? Characters in Marvel do not experience death like we do in the real world, because unlike the real world there is concrete evidence of the afterlife and the possibility of resurrection in Marvel. It's not my opinion vs your opinion, it's Marvel fact vs your opinion and if it were a battle, Marvel would win every time. Jeen and Scott having different experience when it comes to death are not really relevant to the bigger picture, and Jeen does have experience with death, her powers activated because her friend was dying. What does hell have to do with it? Not all afterlives are hell and all hells are not afterlives, as Limbo is a hell dimension and does not operate as an afterlife, and nothing suggests that Jean would end up in a hell even if she wasn't the Phoenix, heaven exists in Marvel too as do all the afterlives associated with most world religions of the past. Even Jesus died, before his resurrection he was dead, and then her was resurrected and ascended physically because no body was left behind. If Jeans body is still on Earth then she did not physically ascend, her ascension was metaphysical, meaning her body is dead, making Jean Grey physically dead, the difference between her and most other dead character is that she is bonded to a force that gives her the power to come back. Jean Grey lives on only in the same metaphysical sense that all dead characters do because their souls transition to another plane of existence. By your logic nobody that died is dead because they have a spiritual existence afterlife, the key word being AFTER.

I'm not trying to convince as much as I am trying to educate you on something you obviously are not understanding. At the end of the day (and everyday after until it is changed) Marvel facts>>>>your opinion, there really isn't room to argue.

...My point is her going Phoenix is still a bad idea

Not at all, as long as she does what all good Phoenixes do : DIE

And according to cyclops "life, death and rebirth" from avx :P

also in avenger 38 cyclops said he had a phoenix egg and he wasnt afraid to use it

Jean has alternate versions (ones from other dimensions) and there are other hosts who are currently PHOENIX. reason why WHITE PHOENIX OF THE CROWN - JEAN 616 is collecting its fragmented pieces. For the Phoenix force to be as one and whole again. There is no reason to wipeout Rachel, Cable and Nate. It was clearly said that it is their birthright to host the Phoenix or be powerful mutants even without the phoenix force.

Isn't the NO MORE HUMANS a one shot story and isn't really part of the 616 continuity?

I would love it. The only bad thing about the Phoenix is that shameless, untalented hacks have been attaching it to their boring pet characters to try to make those characters truly interesting, ruining the significance of it in the process.

On a related note, I don't really care for Bendis' "Jean Grey sucks" angle, voiced by his little clone character. The clone's story is entirely about avoiding and destroying all that came before for the original character.

If the true, original Jean has to stay dead, they could at least stop having the clone say how much the original sucks and have the clone embrace the original's legacy.

I think it is inevitable for teen jean not to encounter the phoenix force. I really hope that she won't reject it the way xorn did

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

@rubear said:

Eight months later...

was this for real? or is this fan made?

@time did you know about this?

@hopesummersforthefuture: No, new to me.

@time: phoenix egg!!!!!!! finally its about time :)

im guessing when "time runs out" scott would use the phoenix egg and hatch it and the phoenix will make secret wars not the beyonder and whatever timelines wins is the new universe.

@phoenixegg: did u hear about the phoenix egg in avengers 38????

it is continuity. It took place right after teen scott left the o5 to go in space.

i always thought xorn/jean was jean616 if she rejected the phoenix force and adult616jean thats dead didnt reject the phoenix force. like there are two paths to the future. either way shes doomed but she still my favorite

Yes. I'm sick of that storyline. It seems like I'm in the minority of Jean fans who was a fan before the Phoenix storyline, since I read all of the original X-Men stories, and X-Factor. I also don't think she was such a mother figure, though she did take that role a few times to protect Scott's son and eventually raise Cable in the future - I don't necessarily put women in that role just because they show a nurturing side, and I tend to think that Marvel's mother figures would be the Invisible Woman, and Crystal.

I don't really think there is any reason to rehash the Phoenix - that storyline never goes anywhere, and ironically, even writers like Grant Morrison who talk about wanting to break the cycle and modernize the X-Men fall into the trap of evoking the imagery.

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

Xorn Jean confirmed that fighting against the Quentin Quire of the future.

P.S. Only two different future paths?

From All New X-Men 22.

@ec2277 said:

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

[…]

i always thought xorn/jean was jean616 if she rejected the phoenix force and adult616jean thats dead didnt reject the phoenix force. like there are two paths to the future. either way shes doomed but she still my favorite

Xorn Jean confirmed that fighting against the Quentin Quire of the future.

P.S. Only two different future paths?

From All New X-Men 22.

well thats what the x-men say from messiah complex. that there are two paths

YES, I mind VERY much.

From the image which I have posted seem now we have three different timeline.

Really, I would love a reboot or something like that, because to me the continuity is became too complex, with all these continuous retcons, that upset the stories of characters and with all these writers who have written and write their stories, without care about the work of their predecessors and without care about the consequences of their work. All that have created confusion, problems with the continuity and forcing the Marvel to try to remedy with others rectons and too complex explanations, which create more continuity problem of those they should resolve.

I would like a reboot, not because I don't like the plot of the current stories, but in order to clean the Marvel Universe from all the contradictions, from all the concept not well definited and from all the too complex explanations.