Wolverine a traitor?

#1 Posted by xerogod (205 posts) - - Show Bio

Why would wolverine decide to side with the Avengers if he opened a school to teach future X-men? what example is he giving to the children? "it's okay to betray the people that would give their lives for you kids" Why can't he just take the Ben Grimm route in the Civil War and stay out of it?

It makes wolvie look bad...

What reasoning could he use to justify himself on this switch?

#2 Posted by Nudeviking (479 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerogod said:

Why would wolverine decide to side with the Avengers if he opened a school to teach future X-men? what example is he giving to the children? "it's okay to betray the people that would give their lives for you kids" Why can't he just take the Ben Grimm route in the Civil War and stay out of it?

It makes wolvie look bad...

What reasoning could he use to justify himself on this switch?

If you have that preview thing (Avengers vs. X-Men Program) on the Marvel comics app it lists all the teams. Wolverine's school is its own entity (with Uncanny X-Force apparently). He's not listed as being on either team. Beast on the other hand...

#3 Posted by Skaddix (3114 posts) - - Show Bio

Beast is the traitor. Still given everything I have read on Hope from her beating people to death to mind controlling her followers, I don't see why anyone would actually think she is going to make a good messiah. Jean at least was a nice person. Hope not so much.

#4 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

@Skaddix: Why should Beast side with the X-men they've treated him like crap and Scott turned the X-men away from the dream that they were founded on and he doesn't even get respect from X-fans cause they can't stop worshiping Scott and Wolverine for long enough to notice 1 is turning into a super villain and the other is a total hypocrite. If I was Beast I'd go with the team that shows me some respect and doesn't have a racist terrorist on the roster.

#5 Posted by Skaddix (3114 posts) - - Show Bio

No doubt Beast might have a point does not mean he won't be painted as the traitor.

#6 Posted by RogueOracle (242 posts) - - Show Bio

Beast left because he didn't like what was happening to the X-Men. I understand his point of view as the X-Men have diverged from their original dream and have become more military than family.

And I sort of agree about Wolverine, but also Cyclops as well. The X-Men need to show a united front for the kids otherwise how are they going to give them hope? With all the conflicting values of the adults, it would be be confusing for the kids as well.

#7 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5894 posts) - - Show Bio
@RogueOracle said:

Beast left because he didn't like what was happening to the X-Men. I understand his point of view as the X-Men have diverged from their original dream and have become more military than family.

And I sort of agree about Wolverine, but also Cyclops as well. The X-Men need to show a united front for the kids otherwise how are they going to give them hope? With all the conflicting values of the adults, it would be be confusing for the kids as well.

I agree that the X-Men should be united, not divided to be a good influence on the kids. What are both Cyclops and Wolverine teaching the kids? That if times are troubling, then splitting up the team is the best option?
#8 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

@Skaddix: If anything the X-men betrayed him

#9 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh aren't they all traitors to the dream of Charles Xavier?

#10 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5894 posts) - - Show Bio
@Blood1991 said:

Ugh aren't they all traitors to the dream of Charles Xavier?

It definitely seems that way. By the way, when is Marvel ever going to bring back Charles Xavier to the main cast again?
#11 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog: I dunno it just seemed so stupid to me that as soon as he leaves they throw away everything he taught them, made a country, and started assassinating people. I expected better X-Men.

#12 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog: I heard Xavier is returning in issue 6 of AvX, but beyond that I have no idea.

#13 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5894 posts) - - Show Bio
@Blood1991 said:

@Rabbitearsblog: I dunno it just seemed so stupid to me that as soon as he leaves they throw away everything he taught them, made a country, and started assassinating people. I expected better X-Men.

Me too.
#14 Posted by Dernman (15093 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see it as either side betraying the other. They both have valid views on what their group needs right now. 
 
As with the idea that Wolverine is a traitor if he sides with the Avengers. That is just wrong. The Avengers are not against Mutants or going after mutants them because they are mutants. 
This isn't a mutant issue. This is an issue over an entity that can destroy planets.  Avengers want to stop it. Cyclops wants to harness it. I would surprised if more mutants didn't think that was a dumb idea and wanted to stop him. 

#15 Posted by cattlebattle (12770 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dernman said:
I don't see it as either side betraying the other. They both have valid views on what their group needs right now.  As with the idea that Wolverine is a traitor if he sides with the Avengers. That is just wrong. The Avengers are not against Mutants or going after mutants them because they are mutants. This isn't a mutant issue. This is an issue over an entity that can destroy planets.  Avengers want to stop it. Cyclops wants to harness it. I would surprised if more mutants didn't think that was a dumb idea and wanted to stop him. 
Isn't it similar to House of M...Avengers wanted Wanda alive,some X-Men decided to off her, the X-Men were scared of backlash and horrible publicity as a mutant being responsible for that kind of chaos...similar to this, so I would call it  a mutant issue
#16 Edited by Dernman (15093 posts) - - Show Bio
@cattlebattle said:

@Dernman said:

I don't see it as either side betraying the other. They both have valid views on what their group needs right now.  As with the idea that Wolverine is a traitor if he sides with the Avengers. That is just wrong. The Avengers are not against Mutants or going after mutants them because they are mutants. This isn't a mutant issue. This is an issue over an entity that can destroy planets.  Avengers want to stop it. Cyclops wants to harness it. I would surprised if more mutants didn't think that was a dumb idea and wanted to stop him. 
Isn't it similar to House of M...Avengers wanted Wanda alive,some X-Men decided to off her, the X-Men were scared of backlash and horrible publicity as a mutant being responsible for that kind of chaos...similar to this, so I would call it  a mutant issue
Only to them and only because they chose to think of it that way. I can't go to much of what happened because I missed that event and only go by what I heard. For the Avengers the issue wasn't that she wasn't just a mutant but a member of their Avenger family.  

This issue involves all races of Earth not just one it just so happens that the Phoenix is going for a mutant.   Sure we all assume that the Phoenix is going for a Mutant but even if that's so it's Cyclops who is trying to make it a mutant issue by thinking it's mutants right to decide what happens.  The Phoenix threat (which isn't a human or mutant) is far bigger issue then just one race group.   
Truthfully it's an issue then just the people of Earth. I'm sure that Terrax and the people he ruled if they still lived would disagree that it was just a Mutant issue. 
 
 
Edit: I forgot to mention. If the Phoenix chose a human Eternal or any other of the races of humanity Cyclops would still be all over it.  
It just so happens that it is a mutant. The Avengers would do the same thing as they are now if it chose any race even non mutant humans.   
  
More to show Wolverine isn't a traitor. Assume that Cyclops's group all agree with him. You would have to assume Wolverines group is for him. 
What makes Cyclops view of harnessing it's power for mutants is more pro mutant then Wolverines who wants it to destroy the Phoenix because of it's danger to mutants. Assuming Wolverine does side with the Avengers and wants it destroyed.
#17 Posted by papad1992 (6829 posts) - - Show Bio

It's The Avengers vs The Utopian X-Men... not Wolverine's school!! If anything I'm surprised that mutants like Storm, Colossus (no matter how Juggernaut pumped he is), Dazzler, some of the recruits, etc aren't horrified that the Phoenix is coming and Scott's plans are everything but kill it!? I didn't read any AvX material but these are my thoughts thus far!!

#18 Posted by Dernman (15093 posts) - - Show Bio
@papad1992 said:

It's The Avengers vs The Utopian X-Men... not Wolverine's school!! If anything I'm surprised that mutants like Storm, Colossus (no matter how Juggernaut pumped he is), Dazzler, some of the recruits, etc aren't horrified that the Phoenix is coming and Scott's plans are everything but kill it!? I didn't read any AvX material but these are my thoughts thus far!!

I know. It is surprising that Mutants are not standing up and saying. This is crazy maybe they will.
#19 Posted by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nudeviking: Previews have Wolverine siding with the Avengers, the Institute may be neutral but he is not

#20 Posted by Nudeviking (479 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dernman said:

@papad1992 said:

It's The Avengers vs The Utopian X-Men... not Wolverine's school!! If anything I'm surprised that mutants like Storm, Colossus (no matter how Juggernaut pumped he is), Dazzler, some of the recruits, etc aren't horrified that the Phoenix is coming and Scott's plans are everything but kill it!? I didn't read any AvX material but these are my thoughts thus far!!

I know. It is surprising that Mutants are not standing up and saying. This is crazy maybe they will.

In one of the preview things on the Marvel app, pretty much everyone except Scott was all kinds of concerned about it. Magneto and Colossus were particularly vocal about it saying that every time it comes it wrecks everything. Emma was more like, "Scott, you can't make this decision. It's Hope's decision to make if she wants some super destructive alien force to take over her body..." Namor was like, "You guys are young and stupid...I'm so going to bail on you when you mess this up Cyke, but not before I still your woman."

#21 Posted by Nudeviking (479 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

@Nudeviking: Previews have Wolverine siding with the Avengers, the Institute may be neutral but he is not

I guess I haven't seen those previews. The only previews I've seen with Wolverine have him sitting in some sort of library in a leather armchair (while wearing his uniform for some reason) not answering whether or not Captain America can count on him beyond saying the school isn't going to fight anyone.

#22 Posted by papad1992 (6829 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nudeviking said:

@Dernman said:

@papad1992 said:

It's The Avengers vs The Utopian X-Men... not Wolverine's school!! If anything I'm surprised that mutants like Storm, Colossus (no matter how Juggernaut pumped he is), Dazzler, some of the recruits, etc aren't horrified that the Phoenix is coming and Scott's plans are everything but kill it!? I didn't read any AvX material but these are my thoughts thus far!!

I know. It is surprising that Mutants are not standing up and saying. This is crazy maybe they will.

In one of the preview things on the Marvel app, pretty much everyone except Scott was all kinds of concerned about it. Magneto and Colossus were particularly vocal about it saying that every time it comes it wrecks everything. Emma was more like, "Scott, you can't make this decision. It's Hope's decision to make if she wants some super destructive alien force to take over her body..." Namor was like, "You guys are young and stupid...I'm so going to bail on you when you mess this up Cyke, but not before I still your woman."

I say a resistance should be formed!! Lead by Storm to oppose Cyclops!!

#23 Posted by Nudeviking (479 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992:

As long as it doesn't result in a Jubilee death I'd be okay with that.

#24 Posted by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nudeviking said:

@BlackArmor said:

@Nudeviking: Previews have Wolverine siding with the Avengers, the Institute may be neutral but he is not

I guess I haven't seen those previews. The only previews I've seen with Wolverine have him sitting in some sort of library in a leather armchair (while wearing his uniform for some reason) not answering whether or not Captain America can count on him beyond saying the school isn't going to fight anyone.

Yeah in the one I'm talking about the Avengers are attacking the X-men and Wolverine, Thing, Spiderman and some others are advancing on Colossus and he breaks the cliff they're standing on and they all fall into the sea before Red Hulk attacks Colossus from behind, I'll try to find a link

#25 Posted by papad1992 (6829 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nudeviking said:

@papad1992:

As long as it doesn't result in a Jubilee death I'd be okay with that.

There must be some casualties!! I'm thinking Velocidad, Primal, X-Man, Sunspot, and some background characters (like: Erg, Ink, Bliss, and Masque) that would die!! Then the big finale death would be Cyclops...

#26 Edited by vicioushero (163 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991: Xavier was a douche thats why they turned him away. He kept Danger locked up even though he knew she was sentient. He lied to them all the time. He had no problem putting them in harms way for his own personal beliefs.

#27 Edited by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

@Nudeviking: Previews have Wolverine siding with the Avengers, the Institute may be neutral but he is not

And in another Solicitation, I saw it said Wolverine vs Captain America. Remember they have been saying that people will change sides on this issue. Only Scott and Rogers are set in stone.

#28 Posted by Nudeviking (479 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992:

NOT X-MAN! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

He's like Cable without all the belt pouches and ammo straps! He's my favorite member of the Summers' clan from an alternate future.

Surely someone else can get killed in his stead. Is Forge still around? If not they could kill off the rest of the Five Lights...except maybe that Laurie girl. She doesn't bug me too much.

#29 Posted by papad1992 (6829 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nudeviking said:

@papad1992:

NOT X-MAN! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

He's like Cable without all the belt pouches and ammo straps! He's my favorite member of the Summers' clan from an alternate future.

Surely someone else can get killed in his stead. Is Forge still around? If not they could kill off the rest of the Five Lights...except maybe that Laurie girl. She doesn't bug me too much.

Fine Fine... I like Laurie too, her powers intrigue me. Let's replace X-Man with that lame Zero guy!! So my casualty deaths would be: Velocidad, Primal, Zero, Sunspot, and some background characters (like: Erg, Ink, Bliss, and Masque)!

#30 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992: You didn't read Gen Hope 17 did you? Zero already went to the dark side and he's gone. Never found the body though.

#31 Posted by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX said:

@BlackArmor said:

@Nudeviking: Previews have Wolverine siding with the Avengers, the Institute may be neutral but he is not

And in another Solicitation, I saw it said Wolverine vs Captain America. Remember they have been saying that people will change sides on this issue. Only Scott and Rogers are set in stone.

No this was from the actual internal of the book, I haven't found the link yet but it was another one of marvel's previews where they show you 3 or 4 pages with the words removed

#32 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor: I'm on Marvel.com and AvX #3 solicitation stated Wolverine and Captain American come to bitter blows. JGS, I have no idea. But Logan starts neutral goes X-Men based on Solicits.

#33 Edited by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Edited by Nudeviking (479 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor:

This one?

Edit: I probably should have waited an extra minute and saw your post first so I didn't end up looking like I'm checking if a dude is Wolverine or not. "Is that him next to the man who looks like he's made out of rocks?"

#35 Posted by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nudeviking: Yep Wolverine and the Avengers advancing on Colossus claws drawn.

#36 Posted by papad1992 (6829 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX said:

@papad1992: You didn't read Gen Hope 17 did you? Zero already went to the dark side and he's gone. Never found the body though.

I only read that Five Lights arc in Uncanny back then but that was it... didn't need to waste my time with stupid underdeveloped cop-out characters and under-thought stories when other great characters were being neglected!! So if Zero is gone/dead... good reddens!! I feel strongly about that series because I thought it was a waste of Marvel's time and money!!

#37 Edited by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992: Gone, but probably will come back as a future X-Villain to plague the X-Men and most likely Hope.

#39 Posted by Nudeviking (479 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor:

And yet here we see Wolverine is clearly in the X-Camp... :P

#40 Posted by papad1992 (6829 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX said:

@papad1992: Gone, but probably will come back as a future X-Villain to plague the X-Men and most likely Hope.

Well that's something to look forward to... and it only took an entire series for someone to give this character a proper development!!

#41 Edited by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992: Hell Kenji basically made Utopia his b****. Used his power to control almost everyone including Emma who then disabled Scott. Kenji would have killed Hope, but the Lights caught on and delayed him long enough for Martha to defeat Kenji. That's screams reoccurring villain.

#42 Posted by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX said:

@BlackArmor: I am aware, but again, where he starts isn't where he is necessarily gonna end up. Issue 3 has him and Rogers coming to blows then in another issue, Hope goes to Logan about a Suicide mission as stated in the solicits.

http://marvel.com/comic_books/issue/41187/avengers_vs_x-men_2012_3

http://marvel.com/comic_books/issue/41193/avengers_vs_x-men_2012_4

Good find, I wouldn't be surprised if Wolverine does turn team X-men by the end (even though issue 3 is a bit early.....) however my original point when talking with Nudeviking was to point out that Wolverine's alliance isn't necessarily aligned with the Institute. These solicits could be deliberately miss-leading and Wolverine and Cap could have a skirmish before realigning by the end of the issue instead of the two having a full blown schism. Hope could sneak into the Avengers camp and appeal a mission to him and he could say no and turn her in. Likewise, Wolverine could join team X-men at the end of issue 1 and he and Cap could meet up later for a brawl, we don't really know what Wolverine will do yet

@Nudeviking said:

@BlackArmor:

And yet here we see Wolverine is clearly in the X-Camp... :P

LOL

#43 Posted by papad1992 (6829 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX said:

@papad1992: Hell Kenji basically made Utopia his b****. Used his power to control almost everyone including Emma who then disabled Scott. Kenji would have killed Hope, but the Lights caught on and delayed him long enough for Martha to defeat Kenji. That's screams reoccurring villain.

Well the same was said about Quentin Quire after his Riot at Xavier's and his little stunt with Martha on Utopia then his return debut at the UN, now look at him... he's roomed in at the JG School with peers he deems inferior!!

#44 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor:

Good find, I wouldn't be surprised if Wolverine does turn team X-men by the end (even though issue 3 is a bit early.....) however my original point when talking with Nudeviking was to point out that Wolverine's alliance isn't necessarily aligned with the Institute. These solicits could be deliberately miss-leading and Wolverine and Cap could have a skirmish before realigning by the end of the issue instead of the two having a full blown schism. Hope could sneak into the Avengers camp and appeal a mission to him and he could say no and turn her in. Likewise, Wolverine could join team X-men at the end of issue 1 and he and Cap could meet up later for a brawl, we don't really know what Wolverine will do yet

Considering that the phoenix takes it's host in issue 5, it makes sense that he makes his mind before then. But you could be right.

#45 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992: Because they want to redeem him in some senses while still have him be his usual a**hole self.

Kenji deemed Hope a false messiah and more of a manipulator. He felt she was using her power over them to turn them into her, and he wanted his freedom. Hell they have been slowly piecing him going dark for awhile also goes along with his Nihilistic beliefs. But since it seems like Hope is sticking around, his likely return as a villain will most likely happen.

#46 Posted by papad1992 (6829 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX said:

@papad1992: Because they want to redeem him in some senses while still have him be his usual a**hole self.

Kenji deemed Hope a false messiah and more of a manipulator. He felt she was using her power over them to turn them into her, and he wanted his freedom. Hell they have been slowly piecing him going dark for awhile also goes along with his Nihilistic beliefs. But since it seems like Hope is sticking around, his likely return as a villain will most likely happen.

Then at least something good came out of that series!! Haven't had a good villain around for awhile!

#47 Posted by BlackArmor (6141 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX: Really the phoenix is there for more than half of the series that's...... surprising

#48 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992: Yep, villains have been in short supply given most are now on Scott's Extinction team. They needed some new blood and Kenji as a villain would be interesting.

@BlackArmor: Issue 5 solicition says it's finds it's host. But it could change hands as it never states whom though they want us to automatically assume Hope. Issue 6 has Scarlet Witch enter the fray. That's all the solicits for now.

The issues count for part 1 is 5, part 2/3 are either 3 then 4 or 4 then 3. So who knows.

#49 Posted by papad1992 (6829 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheGreyOutcastX said:

@papad1992: Yep, villains have been in short supply given most are now on Scott's Extinction team. They needed some new blood and Kenji as a villain would be interesting.

@BlackArmor: Issue 5 solicition says it's finds it's host. But it could change hands as it never states whom though they want us to automatically assume Hope. Issue 6 has Scarlet Witch enter the fray. That's all the solicits for now.

The issues count for part 1 is 5, part 2/3 are either 3 then 4 or 4 then 3. So who knows.

Now that I'm thinking about it, it actually sounds pretty cool!! Even cooler if Hope doesn't make it past AvX... Kenji comes back in like a year a starts to hunt down the other lights... could be a pretty cool story!!

#50 Posted by TheGreyOutcastX (2051 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992: Sadly, I think Hope isn't gonna bite it given all that work put into her. But the idea of Kenji hunting the lights would be a cool story if written well.

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