Who is a better Gay Icon at Marvel? Storm or Northstar

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#1 Posted by poisonfleur (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

I am kinda unearthing this topic! So brace yourself!!!

As we all know Northstar is a gay comic icon. And if I am not mistaken, the first openly gay superhero in comics. He also has had the first gay marriage/ gay interracial marriage. (Yay, for him!)

But-- Being gay doesn't seem to cut it for being the top gay character icon in comics.

Storm on the other hand I've noticed isn't gay, yet seems to have a strong gay fan following.

Is it because she is a strong woman? Studies have show SOME gay men become gay due to being around strong women figures in their life.

Is it because she has the deep drag queen voice & presence and the big hair to back it up? LOL (No, I am just kidding... But you have to admit, Storm does have some androgynous moments in the past.)

Is it because she she can rock a mohawk? mohawks/fohawks/'dyke'spikes are common in the gay community.

Is it because she is leader of the Marvel's team that stands for diversity that including gay rights?

Is it because in video games and other media she is one of the only amazing girl characters- that is wildly respected among fans of all kinds? (From my past experience, a Lot of my gay guy friends play as girl characters as opposed to guy characters. And Storm & Jean are the top 2 that they seem to adore.)

After her marriage ending-- Is there a chance this might push Storm over the edge to play for the 'other team'.. Maybe hook-up with Psylocke? Lol J/k

But seriously--

Tell me who you think Marvel's gay icon is and if Storm is one of them, or up there with them (or simply not one at all).

(Wiccan, Karolina Dean, Mystique, Hulkling, Xavin, Northstar are others to compare too)

#2 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Wiccan and Hulking stomp both, as do Apollo and Midnighter. Then we have Batwoman an openly gay woman with her own series. I can't speak for the LGBT crowd as a straight guy, but honestly I don't feel that having a gay following makes you a gay icon. Also if your comparing two X-Men this should be in the X-Men forum.

#3 Posted by Son Of Storm (11187 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

I think Wiccan and Hulking stomp both, as do Apollo and Midnighter. Then we have Batwoman an openly gay woman with her own series. I can't speak for the LGBT crowd as a straight guy, but honestly I don't feel that having a gay following makes you a gay icon. Also if your comparing two X-Men this should be in the X-Men forum.

This.

And it's a shame that both of those characters seem to me in limbo right now. Especially since their could of been another gay Marvel wedding.

#4 Posted by Joygirl (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

...Dyke-spikes?

#5 Edited by ItsDaveyJ (196 posts) - - Show Bio

As a gay guy I shall offer my two cents:

Northstar is merely important. He has history behind him but the thing that prevents him from being an "icon" is that he's just so boring.

Storm is another empowered female that gay icons tend to be like. She shares many characteristics that gay men seem to be drawn to. Not to mention her own history as a groundbreaking African female character. Between these two I would say Storm is the bigger icon mainly because she's a more popular character. Being a trendsetter in comics doesn't mean anything if you aren't interesting.

But honestly, if we are to talk about the Marvel universe then I would say that Wiccan definitely takes the mantle of the biggest gay icon at the moment. And yes, I left out Hulkling on purpose. To be honest, Hulkling at this current time is like Northstar. He hasn't really been that fleshed out yet. He doesn't feel like an important character in the Marvel Universe yet, while Wiccan is on his way. The reason being that I say Wiccan is a gay icon is that Wiccan is like the Spiderman of straight men... he's what many gay comic book readers tend to feel like. Geeky, awkward at times, and attracted to men. Not to mention how Wiccan has been getting the majority of the attention out of the Young Avengers cast (with the possible exception of Kate Bishop). Also just think, Wiccan seems like he has way more potential to be a powerhouse than Northstar does. Northstar has been around for a long time and hasn't made that many notable impacts on the Marvel universe... Wiccan has only been around for a while and he managed to get Scarlet Witch back which in turn allowed her to destroy the Phoenix Force. He's also a potential Sorcerer Supreme, potentially has mutant powers like Wanda's, etc. The thing to remember is that gay people don't necessarily like gay characters just because they are gay. We are like everyone else... we like well-written characters who we can relate to or aspire to be. I'm sure most gay people would rather read the comics of the character who hasn't made quite as many historical contributions to the comic medium but has a fully developed personality and character over the guy who may be important to history but just isn't quite as captivating. I definitely attribute how Wiccan was written to the fact that his creator is a gay man. Many non-gay authors will focus too much on the "I'M AN IMPORTANT GAY MAN." stuff and not enough on the human and emotional elements of a person. There's more to gay people than just being gay. And Wiccan represents that.

/rant.

#6 Posted by UltraBiel (328 posts) - - Show Bio

@ItsDaveyJ said:

As a gay guy I shall offer my two cents:

Northstar is merely important. He has history behind him but the thing that prevents him from being an "icon" is that he's just so boring.

Storm is another empowered female that gay icons tend to be like. She shares many characteristics that gay men seem to be drawn to. Not to mention her own history as a groundbreaking African female character. Between these two I would say Storm is the bigger icon mainly because she's a more popular character. Being a trendsetter in comics doesn't mean anything if you aren't interesting.

But honestly, if we are to talk about the Marvel universe then I would say that Wiccan definitely takes the mantle of the biggest gay icon at the moment. And yes, I left out Hulkling on purpose. To be honest, Hulkling at this current time is like Northstar. He hasn't really been that fleshed out yet. He doesn't feel like an important character in the Marvel Universe yet, while Wiccan is on his way. The reason being that I say Wiccan is a gay icon is that Wiccan is like the Spiderman of straight men... he's what many gay comic book readers tend to feel like. Geeky, awkward at times, and attracted to men. Not to mention how Wiccan has been getting the majority of the attention out of the Young Avengers cast (with the possible exception of Kate Bishop). Also just think, Wiccan seems like he has way more potential to be a powerhouse than Northstar does. Northstar has been around for a long time and hasn't made that many notable impacts on the Marvel universe... Wiccan has only been around for a while and he managed to get Scarlet Witch back which in turn allowed her to destroy the Phoenix Force. He's also a potential Sorcerer Supreme, potentially has mutant powers like Wanda's, etc. The thing to remember is that gay people don't necessarily like gay characters just because they are gay. We are like everyone else... we like well-written characters who we can relate to or aspire to be. I'm sure most gay people would rather read the comics of the character who hasn't made quite as many historical contributions to the comic medium but has a fully developed personality and character over the guy who may be important to history but just isn't quite as captivating. I definitely attribute how Wiccan was written to the fact that his creator is a gay man. Many non-gay authors will focus too much on the "I'M AN IMPORTANT GAY MAN." stuff and not enough on the human and emotional elements of a person. There's more to gay people than just being gay. And Wiccan represents that.

/rant.

Amen to all he said. But in defense of northstar. He is way older than wiccan, and his powers aren't as interesting!

Now about Sotorm...It's because she is a girl and rock as much as male heroes (When writers are on the mood) For exemple, gaygamers new obssession(mine included) is Bayonetta, Girl that can kick ass on her own!

#7 Posted by jhazzroucher (16500 posts) - - Show Bio

Storm because only a few people knows Northstar

#8 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

I do not think Marvel has a gay iconic character in terms of spider-man, wolverine or even Thor status.

#9 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl said:

...Dyke-spikes?

I don't even know anymore....

#10 Posted by Joygirl (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991: I'm not sure whether to be offended or genuinely curious.

#11 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl said:

@Blood1991: I'm not sure whether to be offended or genuinely curious.

Be both! Angry and confused is a wicked combination.

#12 Posted by Joygirl (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991: Ooh, good idea. :D I also have to google it though.

Apparently it's a little fauxhawk that points forward.

#13 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl said:

@Blood1991: Ooh, good idea. :D I also have to google it though.

Apparently it's a little fauxhawk that points forward.

My google search gave some in the front and then others had it in the back with long bangs in the front. Either way I don't recall Storm ever sporting either...

#14 Posted by Agent9149 (2868 posts) - - Show Bio

@ItsDaveyJ said:

As a gay guy I shall offer my two cents:

Northstar is merely important. He has history behind him but the thing that prevents him from being an "icon" is that he's just so boring.

Storm is another empowered female that gay icons tend to be like. She shares many characteristics that gay men seem to be drawn to. Not to mention her own history as a groundbreaking African female character. Between these two I would say Storm is the bigger icon mainly because she's a more popular character. Being a trendsetter in comics doesn't mean anything if you aren't interesting.

But honestly, if we are to talk about the Marvel universe then I would say that Wiccan definitely takes the mantle of the biggest gay icon at the moment. And yes, I left out Hulkling on purpose. To be honest, Hulkling at this current time is like Northstar. He hasn't really been that fleshed out yet. He doesn't feel like an important character in the Marvel Universe yet, while Wiccan is on his way. The reason being that I say Wiccan is a gay icon is that Wiccan is like the Spiderman of straight men... he's what many gay comic book readers tend to feel like. Geeky, awkward at times, and attracted to men. Not to mention how Wiccan has been getting the majority of the attention out of the Young Avengers cast (with the possible exception of Kate Bishop). Also just think, Wiccan seems like he has way more potential to be a powerhouse than Northstar does. Northstar has been around for a long time and hasn't made that many notable impacts on the Marvel universe... Wiccan has only been around for a while and he managed to get Scarlet Witch back which in turn allowed her to destroy the Phoenix Force. He's also a potential Sorcerer Supreme, potentially has mutant powers like Wanda's, etc. The thing to remember is that gay people don't necessarily like gay characters just because they are gay. We are like everyone else... we like well-written characters who we can relate to or aspire to be. I'm sure most gay people would rather read the comics of the character who hasn't made quite as many historical contributions to the comic medium but has a fully developed personality and character over the guy who may be important to history but just isn't quite as captivating. I definitely attribute how Wiccan was written to the fact that his creator is a gay man. Many non-gay authors will focus too much on the "I'M AN IMPORTANT GAY MAN." stuff and not enough on the human and emotional elements of a person. There's more to gay people than just being gay. And Wiccan represents that.

/rant.

Wiccan is truly the face of gay youth in marvel. They need to develop him more.

#15 Posted by Joygirl (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

@Joygirl said:

@Blood1991: Ooh, good idea. :D I also have to google it though.

Apparently it's a little fauxhawk that points forward.

My google search gave some in the front and then others had it in the back with long bangs in the front. Either way I don't recall Storm ever sporting either...

Nope. She had a few bitchin' mohawks but never a "dyke spike" (eww, I still really dislike the way that sounds).

#16 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl said:

@Blood1991 said:

@Joygirl said:

@Blood1991: Ooh, good idea. :D I also have to google it though.

Apparently it's a little fauxhawk that points forward.

My google search gave some in the front and then others had it in the back with long bangs in the front. Either way I don't recall Storm ever sporting either...

Nope. She had a few bitchin' mohawks but never a "dyke spike" (eww, I still really dislike the way that sounds).

I don't like it either, the word dike just sounds offensive period.

#17 Posted by Joygirl (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991: Exactly. It's crude and very base, there are so many more pleasant words.

#18 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl: Lol I wouldn't really know, but I tend not to use labels, because I don't think you should try to group an individual into some herd.

#19 Posted by Mercy_ (91871 posts) - - Show Bio

Switching this to the X-Men forum.

Moderator
#20 Posted by Joygirl (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991: Nevertheless, some labels exist whether we want them to or not. I'd rather use the not-horrible ones.

#21 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_ said:

Switching this to the X-Men forum.

You glorious woman you. I could give you a hug. I am hugging you through the internet right now. Feel my cyber embrace.

@Joygirl said:

@Blood1991: Nevertheless, some labels exist whether we want them to or not. I'd rather use the not-horrible ones.

True, words like that and a certain F word are horrible things to call someone regardless of appearance or sexual orientation.

#22 Posted by Mercy_ (91871 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991: ♥♥♥

Moderator
#23 Posted by papad1992 (6793 posts) - - Show Bio

What about:

Karma

Bling!

Daken (well he's bi-sexual)

Anole and Greymalkin

Mystique and Destiny (although Mystique is bi-sexual)

Shatterstar and Rictor

Karolina Dean and Xavin (in girl form)

#24 Posted by IllyanaRasputin (1095 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd definitely say that Northstar is by far one of Marvels main gay icon. As a gay man I've always liked Northstar because he's been openly gay since 1992 and being a member of Alpha Flight and a reoccurring member of the X-Men a lot of people as well as myself have grown to see Northstar as a gay iconic figure to the comic-book-universe.

However for a younger generation of comic book readers I would definitely consider Wiccan and Hulking to be the next in line for a gay icon. I'm personally not a fan of Wiccan (personal reasons, haters gonna hate) but he definitely has a big fan base. And the fact that him and Hulking have a relationship definitely makes it something bigger. A lot of people can probably relate to the two characters going through different transitions and I can see the two characters being the main gay icons right now.

And I never really considered Storm being a gay icon really. I mean she is a strong women but so are many other female characters. I mean I know Emma Frost has a large gay fan base haha but I wouldn't consider her a gay icon just because she's a strong independent women, but that's just my opinion on the matter.

So, even though Wiccan and Hulking might be the shining gay duo right now Northstar will always be my number one gay icon <3 I even dressed up as him at the Toronto FanExpo this past summer.

#25 Posted by poisonfleur (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_ said:

Switching this to the X-Men forum.

Thank you, Mercy. I was a little lost there. I didn't exactly know where this should go considering the question was about Storm (who isn't gay) and it covered other character who weren't x-men too.

#26 Edited by poisonfleur (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

Oddly enough- I will accept Wiccan as Marvel's Icon, but Hulking comes too much off as an accessory.. IMO. I should have made them a bigger point in the opening post. I just didn't think they where popular enough/ well known. lol

@Joygirl: @Blood1991: Lol You two!! Well, I live in Wisconsin. And as progressive as the gay community is up here, the term 'dyke spike' is still throw around. (Mind the quotes around it. It's not a word I use often either) A 'dyke spike' (how people use the word up here, anyways) is when a woman has her hair gelled up in a mohawk or Fauhawk fashion as kind of indication she is gay--- er lesbian or bi, I should say. At Pridefest here, I notice quite a lot of these .....'dyke spikes'..... (That really is awkward to say) around.

@ItsDaveyJ: WELL SAID. You really hit it on the head with 'The thing to remember is that gay people don't necessarily like gay characters just because they are gay. We are like everyone else... we like well-written characters who we can relate to or aspire to be.'

@papad1992: I know of Karma and Anole being gay based on their cv pages. But I can't remember a time where I have read any interesting moments on their sexuality. Like if I hadn't looked it, I don't even think I would have known. And what is the deal with Draken?? Did we ever really find out his sexuality? lol

And I forgot about Rictor and Shatterstar! Good call. I love them!! <3 <3 <3

@IllyanaRasputin: I forgot about Emma having a bit of a gay follow. I don't know why that didn't cross my mind. Sorry, imo, anytime I hear Emma's fans I think frostitutes or those random straight guys who liked her in first class because - and I quote them - 'She was hot!' *twitch, twitch*

And you did a cosplay! I wanna see!! if it makes you feel any better, I tried to do a punk version of Storm, but my hair wouldn't get light enough. So I settled at blonde instead of white.

#28 Posted by soduh2 (866 posts) - - Show Bio

Making Storm a gay icon sounds like pandering to me. She's already 1. an African 2. a woman with 3. a lot of power and experience (leading a goverment and a super hero team). Northstar would be a better fit. But my opinion probably isn't the best one here.

#29 Posted by sunhawk (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Karma

#30 Posted by poisonfleur (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

@IllyanaRasputin: Super Kawaii- That awesome how you all got together with X-men cosplayers. Are you going to Acen this year?

Here is my attempt at a Xenogenesis Storm inspired look.

In my area-- Strom, Rogue, Jean and even Emma are the most talked about character in Marvel in the gay community here. Oddly enough nobody talks about Psylocke.. :/

#31 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

Just because you have a following in a certain demographic doesn't necessarily make you an icon for that demographic. And I'm not sure I buy the argument that some gay men become gay because they happen to have a strong female role model in their life.

#32 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulkling and Wiccan are better than both of them.

#33 Posted by PassionFlower (963 posts) - - Show Bio

Storm does seem to have a big gay following and at times some artists like Simone Bianchi for instance has made her look like Rupaul but I wouldn't call her a gay icon per se.

#34 Edited by poisonfleur (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

Just because you have a following in a certain demographic doesn't necessarily make you an icon for that demographic. And I'm not sure I buy the argument that some gay men become gay because they happen to have a strong female role model in their life.

There are tons of studies about how or why people are gay. Some people in could be due to strong women, being born that way, being molested or rapped, the environment, or I have even heard of overly sexual or lonely people. Either way, they are all theories. I think it's agreeable that strong women and girl power have a place in the gay community.

Also certain demographic plays a huge role in making one an icon. For example: Lady Gaga, Katy Griffin, Britney Spears and Nicki Minaj aren't gay but they are icons in gay community. Also their audience isn't elusive to gay community, although they are undoubtedly icons. I was wondering if Storm had parallels to that considering a lot of gay men like her. It's even debatable they are more interested in her than Northstar and Wiccan. As said before, one doesn't have to be gay, to be a gay icon.

@PassionFlower said:

Storm does seem to have a big gay following and at times some artists like Simone Bianchi for instance has made her look like Rupaul but I wouldn't call her a gay icon per se.

Oddly enough that isn't the first time I heard that.. lol

#35 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by THORSON (2518 posts) - - Show Bio

storm is gay?

#37 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@poisonfleur said:

@fodigg said:

Just because you have a following in a certain demographic doesn't necessarily make you an icon for that demographic. And I'm not sure I buy the argument that some gay men become gay because they happen to have a strong female role model in their life.

There are tons of studies about how or why people are gay. Some people in could be due to strong women, being born that way, being molested or rapped, the environment, or I have even heard of overly sexual or lonely people. Either way, they are all theories. I think it's agreeable that strong women and girl power have a place in the gay community.

I also do not buy that some men become gay because they were molested or raped. All three theories are oversimplifications at best and totally inaccurate at worse.

Also certain demographic plays a huge role in making one an icon. For example: Lady Gaga, Katy Griffin, Britney Spears and Nicki Minaj aren't gay but they are icons in gay community. Also their audience isn't elusive to gay community, although they are undoubtedly icons. I was wondering if Storm had parallels to that considering a lot of gay men like her. It's even debatable they are more interested in her than Northstar and Wiccan. As said before, one doesn't have to be gay, to be a gay icon.

I disagree on your use of icon. Icon means representative in this context, not just popular, IMO.

#38 Posted by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

@Mercy_ said:

Switching this to the X-Men forum.

You glorious woman you. I could give you a hug. I am hugging you through the internet right now. Feel my cyber embrace.

@Joygirl said:

@Blood1991: Nevertheless, some labels exist whether we want them to or not. I'd rather use the not-horrible ones.

True, words like that and a certain F word are horrible things to call someone regardless of appearance or sexual orientation.

Except if, like me, you play games where such words are commonplace, and nobody takes them seriously anymore.. Then, they can be useful to vent anger and unpleasant emotions without actually hurting people :D

Also, what's wrong with the term dyke? My own brief research indicates it's mostly been reappropriated and can now be used in neutral or occasionally positive fashions, like a lot of people at my college campus use slang words derived from nigga but they're not used to insult or offend anyone, they simply use them in jokes at each other (even black students). Everyone laughs and they don't care. Unless someone specifically intends for it to be used in a horrible way, nobody minds, and even then I doubt they'd care much.

Really, words are only harmful or offensive if you let them be.

#39 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (3628 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

I think Wiccan and Hulking stomp both, as do Apollo and Midnighter. Then we have Batwoman an openly gay woman with her own series. I can't speak for the LGBT crowd as a straight guy, but honestly I don't feel that having a gay following makes you a gay icon. Also if your comparing two X-Men this should be in the X-Men forum.

Agreed. I'm gay, and while I definitely like and keep track of Northstar, I was very happy with how Wiccan, Hulkling, Apollo and Midnighter were represented on the male side with Batwoman and Det. Montoya really impressing me on the female side of the community. Storm certainly has expressed bisexual feelings, but she's never really stood out as a gay icon. I do know a few gay artists that love drawing her and are self-professed fans of her, but I've never heard them claim she was an icon that represented the LGBTQ community.

@ItsDaveyJ said:

As a gay guy I shall offer my two cents:

Northstar is merely important. He has history behind him but the thing that prevents him from being an "icon" is that he's just so boring.

Storm is another empowered female that gay icons tend to be like. She shares many characteristics that gay men seem to be drawn to. Not to mention her own history as a groundbreaking African female character. Between these two I would say Storm is the bigger icon mainly because she's a more popular character. Being a trendsetter in comics doesn't mean anything if you aren't interesting.

But honestly, if we are to talk about the Marvel universe then I would say that Wiccan definitely takes the mantle of the biggest gay icon at the moment. And yes, I left out Hulkling on purpose. To be honest, Hulkling at this current time is like Northstar. He hasn't really been that fleshed out yet. He doesn't feel like an important character in the Marvel Universe yet, while Wiccan is on his way. The reason being that I say Wiccan is a gay icon is that Wiccan is like the Spiderman of straight men... he's what many gay comic book readers tend to feel like. Geeky, awkward at times, and attracted to men. Not to mention how Wiccan has been getting the majority of the attention out of the Young Avengers cast (with the possible exception of Kate Bishop). Also just think, Wiccan seems like he has way more potential to be a powerhouse than Northstar does. Northstar has been around for a long time and hasn't made that many notable impacts on the Marvel universe... Wiccan has only been around for a while and he managed to get Scarlet Witch back which in turn allowed her to destroy the Phoenix Force. He's also a potential Sorcerer Supreme, potentially has mutant powers like Wanda's, etc. The thing to remember is that gay people don't necessarily like gay characters just because they are gay. We are like everyone else... we like well-written characters who we can relate to or aspire to be. I'm sure most gay people would rather read the comics of the character who hasn't made quite as many historical contributions to the comic medium but has a fully developed personality and character over the guy who may be important to history but just isn't quite as captivating. I definitely attribute how Wiccan was written to the fact that his creator is a gay man. Many non-gay authors will focus too much on the "I'M AN IMPORTANT GAY MAN." stuff and not enough on the human and emotional elements of a person. There's more to gay people than just being gay. And Wiccan represents that.

/rant.

Yep, great points!

#40 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

CAN Mystique be gay (or straight for that matter) ? I mean she can literally change into a dude or a girl at will...I remember once she changed parts of her body into metal wings. Woo baby you be having some SEXY ailerons...

#41 Posted by poisonfleur (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis said:

CAN Mystique be gay (or straight for that matter) ? I mean she can literally change into a dude or a girl at will...I remember once she changed parts of her body into metal wings. Woo baby you be having some SEXY ailerons...

She is Bisexual.

#42 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

@minigunman123 said:

@Blood1991 said:

@Mercy_ said:

Switching this to the X-Men forum.

You glorious woman you. I could give you a hug. I am hugging you through the internet right now. Feel my cyber embrace.

@Joygirl said:

@Blood1991: Nevertheless, some labels exist whether we want them to or not. I'd rather use the not-horrible ones.

True, words like that and a certain F word are horrible things to call someone regardless of appearance or sexual orientation.

Except if, like me, you play games where such words are commonplace, and nobody takes them seriously anymore.. Then, they can be useful to vent anger and unpleasant emotions without actually hurting people :D

Also, what's wrong with the term dyke? My own brief research indicates it's mostly been reappropriated and can now be used in neutral or occasionally positive fashions, like a lot of people at my college campus use slang words derived from nigga but they're not used to insult or offend anyone, they simply use them in jokes at each other (even black students). Everyone laughs and they don't care. Unless someone specifically intends for it to be used in a horrible way, nobody minds, and even then I doubt they'd care much.

Really, words are only harmful or offensive if you let them be.

And some people let them be. Kids have committed suicide over words like this. I've never understood why people curse so much or insult one another either in video games. It is a GAME calm the F__k down...

#43 Posted by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@ItsDaveyJ: You forgot something Storm was quite lesbian for Tokio, her lil ninja girl.

I think they are an okay gay couple, i don't see Hulking & Wiccan as gay icons, though. It's like saying justin bieber is a gay icon...because gay men/teens think he's cute. Sorry that doesn't make you an icon. It's through advocacy and a trial of fire. Although Hulking coming out was really good for the community, he was immediately accepted which generally isn't the case a lot of times. Give them a couple more years and some real trials then they will be icons.

Northstar is definitely more of an icon, because he has fought past the prejudice of him coming out, it wasn't easy for him. His love with iceman, the rejection. His death, and his resurrection, and finding of true love, and gay marriage in the States. Northstar is epic as a gay icon.

Storm equally so, due to her being the first African American female in a predominantly white, male/female genre. Storm broke a much needed barrier in civil rights, and how otherness can be perceived. If you hear the argument for Gay Right, it is as much a Civil Right issue as any other. She has dealt with great trauma in her life, with the death of her parents and being almost buried alive, yet she rose above it. Her abduction and control by the Shadow King, living on the streets as a thief, surviving by any means, and later on becoming a true Queen, and worshiped as a goddess. Her story is inspiring, her spirit idolized, she is seen as the Matron of the X-men family, the voice of reason, lifting others up, even if it means her death. She has sacrificed herself for her beliefs on a number of occasions and has also push forward to reach her goals. As some have mentioned before she is also a powerful female presence with a great balance of strength, compassion, intelligence, grace and sexuality, that so many LGBT people relate to. If i could equate her to female pop stars, She would be Aretha Franklin, Barbra Streisand, Janis Joplin, Nina Simone, and Madonna rolled up in one. She is certainly a Diva, which has been showcased a lot in comics and is epic when she is teamed up with Emma frost as of late. This is also why i think she is such a great role model for the LGBT community.

As a bisexual male, I'd say as of right now Storm kind of edges Northstar as a gay Icon. But both are great examples of what a Gay Icon should aspire to be.

#44 Edited by ItsDaveyJ (196 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that Wiccan has been a very strong advocate for LGBT issues in comics. He's had a relationship with another guy that is genuinely well written and not just trying to milk the pink dollar. He has been through several trial by fires (I think he's gone through more than many gay icons have. It kind of comes along with the superhero business that you will be going through a trial by fire every single day) and will continue to do so. I don't think you have to reach of certain status of seniority in order to be iconic so I contest that he isn't already one now but will be in a few years. Also, Hulkling... never had an on-screen coming out. Wiccan had an accidental coming out where he really was going to "come out" as a superhero but his parents misinterpreted it as him coming out as gay. And I don't quite understand your logic regarding that... If a gay person comes out and his family accepts him then he can't be a gay icon? There isn't a set criteria for what circumstances a person's coming out or more broadly speaking, how their homosexuality impacts their life. The only criteria for what a gay icon is, is that gay people view this person as iconic. Maybe its just me, but I don't think that someone has to suffer because of their homosexuality in order to be considered an icon. I think it is just as important and iconic for a gay character to overcome prejudice as it is for a gay character to find love and acceptance. The point of an icon is that they are a representative symbol. Not everyone has the same circumstances in life, so it's important to have a diverse cast of characters so that everyone can have a story told that represents them. So while Wiccan and Hulkling may not be an icon for you because you cannot relate to their circumstances, it's important to recognize that that they represent many people's circumstances and are therefore iconic because of it. I would go so far to argue that they will better represent homosexuals in the future because more and more people are becoming accepting of gay people and therefore more gay people will have a similar coming out story to Wiccan than the trials and tribulations that Northstar faced.

Now, there is something to be said that Northstar has been the first to accomplish a lot of things. That will forever cement him as an icon. But the problem Northstar faces is appealing to younger gay people who's life circumstances are very different from his. This is why I think that Northstar's popularity is steady, but not profound. While Wiccan's (let's face it, it's mainly Wiccan and not Hulkling) popularity is looking to continue to increase. At least based on my observations and predictions that new comic readers will more likely be young than a late 20's to early 30's gay man.

Storm certainly has strong parallels to other prominent female gay icons. But I must say, as much as I love her, I attribute her being a bigger gay icon than Northstar to her popularity as a character. If you look at some of these female gay icons, their appeal doesn't lie only with gay men. They have large female followings and depending on the celebrity, large male followings. They have a much broader appeal which I believe Northstar currently lacks. This brings me back to Wiccan, who in my observations has a sizeable female fanbase. To me, this is another reason why I see him becoming the main gay icon of Marvel in the future IF he can manage to get a sizeable following of straight men like Storm does. Keep in mind too, that comics move at an incredibly slow pace. New characters often take a considerable amount of time to become important household names. I think Wiccan is on his way.

Sorry if my post is a little incoherent. I'm terrible at organizing my thoughts.

#45 Posted by poisonfleur (3131 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blacharrt1: @ItsDaveyJ: Both of you-- That was well worth the read. I am loving your thoughts on this. Great points and ideas you both brought up. :)

#46 Posted by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@ItsDaveyJ: Thanks for the correction in the Coming out story, with Wiccan honestly i couldn't remember which came out, but only that one of them did. It's been awhile since i read the young avengers comic. As far as me not relating to Hulking & Wiccan it isn't true, when I "Came Out" i was immediately accepted by my family not exactly by everyone else. So if anything i can relate to that part more. I don't people he had to be completely shunned to be considered an icon, but let's face reality, not every person who knows you will accept your sexuality, and in that Hulking & Wiccan really hasn't had to face that. The Only encounter with anything remotely like that was with those Wannabe Young Avengers and that Giant Nazi girl. (Sorry i don't remember her name). So don't get me wrong they are great Role Models, a lot of young LGBT teens should stove to be more like them, but ICONs, i would have to disagree with you there.

As far as Northstar not relating to Younger Gays, i would disagree on that, His relationship with Anole and helping him accept his sexuality and to let other people embrace who he was, That was Iconic, and so was his untimely death and the aftermath of it. How it affected Anole outlook on the world as a gay mutant. The New X-men was specifically gears towards a younger audience in the way that New Mutants was when it first came out so i think that provided an opportunity for those young people who didn't know who Northstar was, to know him, and respect him. Now Wiccan and Hulking are more current, but Anole is just as much of a Role Model as those two are. He has an amazing heart, and strength about him. But I also wouldn't consider Anole an Icon. Also there maybe a slight favoritism shown towards the Hulky Blonde, and Twinkie Brown haired boy, over the Lizard boy. But I won't go there.

To the female fanbase, i don't know if you watch anime, but majority of Yaoi sells are from females and not gay men. That should tell you something. Storm is a lot of things personified, she has been around a long time. Which is why i listed some of those very powerful pop Divas to characterized her. She has a big male fanbase but for a long time that's whom the comic world was driven by, but I would argue her female Fanbase has only gotten bigger over the years. She is a powerful woman, and men & women respect that. It's why she is one of the few marvel females that have world wide popularity. Besides the fact that no one else that I'm aware of in comics even has her powerset, which is something else that makes her unique unto herself. I think as a whole package Storm definitely overshadows Northstar. Both Hulking & Wiccan are a great couple, awesome superheros, and really good rolemodels, I don't think they have become icon "yet", it isn't to say they won't. I think time will tell on that one. But I'm sure Anole will be up there with them.

I think you stated your argument beautifully. You are pretty awesome.

#47 Posted by quatro_briefs (384 posts) - - Show Bio

Northstar

#48 Posted by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@poisonfleur said:

@chasereis said:

CAN Mystique be gay (or straight for that matter) ? I mean she can literally change into a dude or a girl at will...I remember once she changed parts of her body into metal wings. Woo baby you be having some SEXY ailerons...

She is Bisexual.

I completely forgot about her, couldn't you then put Destiny on this list as well?

#49 Edited by ItsDaveyJ (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blacharrt1: Wiccan and Hulkling have had to face people who were not accepting of their homosexuality. I recall them facing a group of thugs who said they hated gay people... which prompted Hulkling to kiss one on the cheek to piss him off. Again, I must contest the notion that people have to be surrounded by people who aren't accepting of their sexuality in order to be an icon. If you argue that Storm is bisexual and you say she is a gay icon... then who has given her grief because of her sexuality? Saying that that is a requirement contradicts the existence of straight female gay icons. They couldn't have faced people who were unaccepting of their homosexuality because they are not homosexual. If we were to create a list of what makes for a gay icon, I don't see how Wiccan doesn't qualify. To me, a gay icon needs to fulfill these requirements:

-Popularity beyond just the LGBT community.

-Must be willing to address LGBT issues. Doesn't necessarily have to be LGBT themself.

-Embraced by LGBT community.

Those are really the only requirements that I can think of. I mean if you compare Anderson Cooper to Lady Gaga they are quite different. On topic: I feel like Wiccan meets these requirements while Hulkling, Anole, etc. just aren't popular enough on their own outside of the gay demographic. Northstar gets to have special treatment due to him being the first of Marvel's openly gay characters. Because of that important history, he can override the popularity requirement IMO.

As for him helping out Anole, yes it was a great scene but if nobody is there to read and appreciate it then it's all for nothing. Anole just doesn't have the popularity to be a gay icon while Wiccan does. What book is Anole currently in or is being worked on that he makes serious contributions to the main plot? Certainly not Wolverine and the X-men. Wiccan has a new run of the Young Avengers in the works for 2013. This year he finished up Avengers: Children's Crusade which had lasting impacts on the Marvel Universe (ultimately allowing the Phoenix Force to have been destroyed. If not for Wiccan's actions during that comic then either the Phoenix would have destroyed Earth or Hope would have had to be the vessel for the Phoenix Force which could cause her to go Dark Phoenix at some point in time). I know you weren't arguing Anole as a gay icon, but clearly there is a substantial difference in the number and importance of their appearances in their respective comics. I'm offering this comparison as a sort of means to ask this question: If Anole is NOT a gay icon, then what is Wiccan? Wiccan is not like Anole, so he cannot not be a gay icon right? I'm trying to explain this in as mathematical terms as I can. Or would you say "Wiccan is MORE of a gay icon than Anole but still NOT a gay icon" under which I have to ask, "What more does Wiccan need more of to become a gay icon?" I have an answer of what characters like Anole and Hulkling need to become gay icons: More popularity. You say several times that "Time will tell" if they eventually become gay icons. What would have to happen during that time period in order for them to become gay icons? What I'm trying to say is, you are saying that they may eventually become gay icons without giving the requirements they need to fulfill in order to be gay icons. Your definition is empty. In this post I have listed the qualities that I believe are necessary for a gay icon to possess. If you are going to respond: Please list the qualities that you feel are requirements of gay icons. That way, we can better come to pinpoint what exactly is the requirement that you believe Wiccan doesn't fulfill and can therefore have a more precise discussion.

Also: Sorry for making the inaccurate assumption that you couldn't relate to Wiccan's coming out story. In fact, I actually don't relate to Wiccan's coming out story at all. My coming out story is one where my family does not give acceptance. But that is why I appreciate the value in having people's positive stories told. In almost every medium, gay characters who come out often have a tragic outcome. It's an easy way to write drama. But it is nice and refreshing to see someone's story told who doesn't have to fight against hate every day of their life. It doesn't diminish their worth as a gay person, or make them any less "gay" than the gay person who wasn't so fortunate. I get what you are saying that gay icons typically overcome some sort of adversity but I don't believe it has ever been a requirement that the adversity someone must overcome has to be related to their sexuality. Straight female gay icons don't have to overcome that... they overcome other obstacles. So why can't a gay person overcome different obstacles and still be a gay icon? Why does a gay person have to be trapped by the limits of their homosexuality? We as a community always say that "there's more to gay people than just being gay" so why is it that when there are people and characters who have stories beyond their homosexuality that we say their story isn't "gay enough." I know I'm putting words in your mouth but that is the logical conclusion to come to given your statements. Let me try to get my point across this way: If we take your statement that, "not every person who knows you will accept your sexuality, and in that Hulking & Wiccan really hasn't had to face that" and turn it around... "Hulkling and Wiccan regularly have to overcome adversity and obstacles set in place by people who are not accepting of their sexuality"... What is the difference? Their is "more gay" in their life. There are more instances in which their homosexuality is brought up as an issue. So if there are less instances in which their homosexuality is in issue it implies that their stories aren't "gay enough" and your statement says that there aren't enough instances where their homosexuality is an issue. Hence bringing me to say that you believe their stories aren't "gay enough."

Anyways, the whole point of that was just to say this: Who says a gay icon has to be an icon with lots of gay in their lives? Why can't we have an icon who is simply gay but is iconic for other reasons? Is a gay icon different from a gay icon?

Lastly, I don't contest your statements or beliefs that Storm and Northstar are gay icons. I won't even contest your statements that Northstar is MORE of a gay icon than Wiccan. Because that is an opinion. But I contest your statement that Wiccan is not a gay icon because we can actually prove one way or the other that he is or is not a gay icon. And I say that he is one.

Holy shitballs that was a long ass reply. And thank you. I am pretty awesome ;D

#50 Posted by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@ItsDaveyJ:

In the first paragraph i think you are confusing what i am saying or maybe it's me who isn't conveying it right. Storm relationship was seen by a lot of people as being sort of lesbian. I think that died when her friend did. But that's neither here or there. The main point about Storm was her perseverance, her ability to overcome. I don't think i stated it was a pre-req, that Wiccan and Hulking had to go through gay issues to become icon. I don't think i stated that's what they have gone through doesn't make them relatable especially to the LGBT community on the contrary, I agree they are great role models and have said as such.

But to me an Icon is someone who embodies not only a certain demographic, but is bigger than a single idle. Northstar is gay, Storm is black, but They are also so much more than that, and it shows in their character, and is consistent in what makes them who they are (This is in terms of Decades). Wiccan & Hulking haven't been around that long, and honestly they could fade away just as easily. This is why i said time will tell for them. They have great potential to be iconic.

If you reduce being an ICON, into a popularity contest, then anyone who wins American Idol can fall into that category. They will not be the Next Madonna or Beyonce, or Nsync, sorry but that's just the Reality. Northstar is not only the first openly gay character, but he's a twin who puts his family above all, and he is also Canadian. Sometimes he is split between the love of his country and being a mutant in the x-men. He is far more complex than what you are making him out to be. Why Anderson Cooper who just recently came out, why not Don Lemon who has been out a lot longer, works at the same network as Anderson, and is also highly respected? There are a good bit of gay journalist who will never be icons, so in your mind what makes Anderson different and more deserving then the rest? because he's cute? Because he constantly puts himself in harms way to bring about the news from other countries, or his Ridicu-list reports on his show? Why not Rachel Maddow? So even if you reduce it to a popularity contest, you will still find Storm and Northstar still trump Wiccan & Hulking.

Avengers: Children's Crusade, you are making Wiccan to be more important to the Phoenix saga then he really was. Throughout Crusade Wiccan was portrayed as being little more than selfish in wanting to see his mom, along with Magneto, and Quicksilver. The subplot was that his powers could possibly go out of control and that maybe Scarlet Witch could help him, and she did, but really it was just an excuse to bring the Scarlet Witch back on the scene. Was this journey necessary, i can't say, but what i do know is that Wanda would have shown up eventually regardless, because there had to be a reckoning for Decimation, and answers to the Phoenix's involvement in HOM.

"gay enough" I'm sorry if I'm confusing on this, but I don't think there is a "gay enough." I mention adversary, because adversary builds character it how you learn and grow. It's how you relate to other people and how they relate to you. I have never denied that they haven't gone through things, gay or not, i don't think it really matters. But beyond the fact that they have superpowers, i don't see what really makes them iconic, or different from any other gay person. Just being a gay character doesn't automatically make you an icon. Being popular also doesn't make you an icon either, at least i don't believe it does. They may contribute or there may even be a correlation to it, i can't really say. But i can't name anything Iconic about them, the only difference between Wiccan & Anole, besides their apparent looks are what? Anole has actually been alone through his journey into gayness, until Northstar came along. Wiccan had support the entire way, him and Hulking being introduced as a couple. Anole suffered the loss of losing a mentor, Wiccan never knowing his Mom (until Children's Crusade) or twin brother. Both have gone through life altering circumstance and found out something about themselves, They both wear tight clothing... I know I'm oversimplifying things, but my point is in this case is nothing really separates these two, one isn't more deserving of being an icon than the other. But what these two lack is the time it takes to become true icon, they can be written away or faded into obscurity very quickly and can be easily forgotten and replaced. So again i say Time will tell for Wiccan & Hulking.

You raised a really good point about Being Gay & Iconic, and being a Gay Icon. Rupaul is Gay & Iconic and Madonna is a Gay Icon. the unifying thing between the two is that both support equal rights, and also support a number of other causes and give back a great deal to the bigger global community. I am sure as being Gay & Iconic, you deal with more issues and topics that relate more to your life, and the life of the people in your community that may be ignore by the mainstream. As you said earlier LGBT community is gaining acceptance, so a lot of people have to keep pushing that cause forward. As for being an Gay Icon, if you aren't gay, you may support gay issues, but not be as invested, and therefore my divide your support towards other issues that may relate to you. For Iconic Females, it may be women's health issues such as Breast Cancer awareness, Ovarian Cancer screening, Equal pay for equal work, or it could be more general like world hungry etc... This kind of thing is very dependent on the person, i l believe, but i believe the underline goal is respect, and a sense of responsibility for your fellow man.

I don't believe Wiccan is a gay icon, because he doesn't fit what I think an icon is, i don't think i have ever said any different. I'm not trying to prove you wrong or right, but for me. Time will tell if he can live up to being an icon. If he gets more print time and he last, than my mind will definitely change on that, if not it will stay the same.

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