When did X-Men went downhill?

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#1 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

When do you think the X-Men series started going downhill? You can say whenever a certain event (Messiah Complex for example) or a certain writer made the franchise go downhill.

I think it started going downhill when the writers decided to make the stories much darker. It's like they didn't know how to develop the characters at this point and then Marvel started throwing out random events every month which made the situation even worse since there was no time to fully develop the characters.

#2 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#3 Edited by OmegaHans (209 posts) - - Show Bio

When Jean died! Nah, just kidding...

I think one of the main problems with X-Men lately is how quickly they've been humiliating their villains or offing them entirely! Selene gets a knife in her and goes pop. Apocalypse gets a bullet in the medulla oblongata and before you can blink, off he goes. Bastion becomes burnt toast, Sinister continues to eat subjected to sucking down his yearly pwnedsauce, Magneto ain't got it in him to be the O.G. (original gangsta) he used to be, Sebastian Shaw is still brain dead I think... I mean who else we got? Quire? Yeah ok but... who else? Hope Summers? So far she's been a complete dud in my opinion. I say give the mutants a real challenge for once, a victory they really have to work for.

#4 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmegaHans said:

When Jean died! Nah, just kidding...

I think one of the main problems with X-Men lately is how quickly they've been humiliating their villains or offing them entirely! Selene gets a knife in her and goes pop. Apocalypse gets a bullet in the medulla oblongata and before you can blink, off he goes. Bastion becomes burnt toast, Sinister continues to eat subjected to sucking down his yearly pwnedsauce, Magneto ain't got it in him to be the O.G. (original gangsta) he used to be, Sebastian Shaw is still brain dead I think... I mean who else we got? Quire? Yeah ok but... who else? Hope Summers? So far she's been a complete dud in my opinion. I say give the mutants a real challenge for once, a victory they really have to work for.

I agree! The villains lately haven't been that great or challenging for the X-Men. It's like years ago, the villains were huge threats to the X-Men and now they are reduced to second rate villains.

#5 Posted by KDarkholme (334 posts) - - Show Bio

I have heard ppl say the older comics are way better than they are now. I do think the villians are downgraded these day except for Bastion, he was really on the X Men in that arc.

#6 Edited by yumyumbubblegum (618 posts) - - Show Bio

Does anyone remember Xorn from the New X-men? The guy who had Magneto's powers, physical appearance and overwhelming goal of mutant superiority, but wasn't Magneto....I found that as an absolute garbage piece of writing. To me it seemed as if Morrison (I think), concentrated too much on the death of Jean and as a result lost sight of as to how he would conclude that story line. I think he was also responsible for making Beast more feline (looks like sh*t) and introducing my most hated X-man ever....Beak.

#7 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

@yumyumbubblegum said:

Does anyone remember Xorn from the New X-men? The guy who had Magneto's powers, physical appearance and overwhelming goal of mutant superiority, but wasn't Magneto....I found that as an absolute garbage piece of writing. To me it seemed as if Morrison (I think), concentrated too much on the death of Jean and as a result lost sight of as to how he would conclude that story line. I think he was also responsible for making Beat more feline (looks like sh*t) and introducing my most hated X-man ever....Beak.

Oh yeah! I've heard about that and I heard that it was re conned thank goodness!

#8 Posted by OmegaHans (209 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I guess what I'm kinda getting at is, they need a new villain battle against, someone young, mutant, and very powerful, and please Marvel make the character interesting enough and don't put your readers to sleep.

If they do this also get someone to write a decent story that lives up to its hype, cause mere hype is all these story arcs have been far as I'm concerned ever since Messiah Complex.

#9 Posted by yumyumbubblegum (618 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmegaHans: Really? I thought Messiah Complex was actually well written, although it was rather tedious to read all the tie ins. Bishop becoming a villain was one of the better outcomes of the post-Morrison era of X-men.

What do you think of the New Hellfire Club introduced during Schism?

#10 Posted by Whitley (84 posts) - - Show Bio

When I first left the X-Men family of books was back when Generation X started up and in like 3-4 issues, Jubilee goes from what an average teenager looks like to this supermodel look with boobs as big as her head. After all, it all became about the big event. Seems like there would be 3-4 "big" events in the X-Universe every years and things got lost. I do think the break in the two teams is a good thing, because it allows them to explore new things. I am hopeful now that you have 3 distinct people groups with the X-Men, Wolvie and the kids and Danielle Moonstar and her new mutants that there is time to let the characters grow and change. And for writers and artists to stretch out their legs a bit.

#11 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

@Whitley said:

When I first left the X-Men family of books was back when Generation X started up and in like 3-4 issues, Jubilee goes from what an average teenager looks like to this supermodel look with boobs as big as her head. After all, it all became about the big event. Seems like there would be 3-4 "big" events in the X-Universe every years and things got lost. I do think the break in the two teams is a good thing, because it allows them to explore new things. I am hopeful now that you have 3 distinct people groups with the X-Men, Wolvie and the kids and Danielle Moonstar and her new mutants that there is time to let the characters grow and change. And for writers and artists to stretch out their legs a bit.

I agree that Schism might allow more new stories in the X-Men universe since the stories lately were getting tedious, so I guess we'll see how good of a change Schism is to the X-universe if the writers write the stories in an interesting way.

#12 Posted by Mercy_ (91881 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt Fraction.

Moderator
#13 Edited by OmegaHans (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@yumyumbubblegum: I'm not too impressed with it actually. And I think it's time Bishop came back a good guy again. Maybe some other Bishop from another timeline.

I ain't gonna sugarcoat it, to me the books haven't been as good as they could be in a long time. These writers could try sticking to ideas they originally make through the end instead of pulling some sort of last minute nonsensical endings out of their behinds.

And if I sound grumpy about it well I am.

#14 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Dark Huntress said:

Matt Fraction.

Yes! The moment he started writing, the X-books got so bad.

#15 Posted by papad1992 (6793 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Dark Huntress said:

Matt Fraction.

HA

I feel that Marvel ran out all the classic villains (but let's be real here... they couldn't stay current forever) so instead of villains which made the X-Men more heroic now they are fighting more anti-mutant riots, leaders, and humans more than ever making them feel more relatable as a nation or race instead of a fictional superhero team who fought bad guys!! Now it feels like they could actually be living with us the way the writers write them and their stories/situations!!

#16 Posted by Soldier zero (250 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that the franchise started to go downhill with E for Extinction, Morrison's run. And they pretty much ruined it completly with the decision too keep the mutant out of Civil War.

Everything in hte middle is just a low agonizing decay.

Right now the X-titles don't seem to even exist in the same continuity of the rest of the MU.

#17 Posted by OmegaHans (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@Soldier zero: @Soldier zero said:

Right now the X-titles don't seem to even exist in the same continuity of the rest of the MU.

Darn right. Hey I just got an idea since these writers can't seem to find any useful ones lately. People want X-Men put more relevant in the MU again? How about we just stick the X-Men against the Avengers and have a good old fashioned rumble.

Eh? Marvel Comics, did ya read that? Huh put that in your pipe and smoke it.Maybe then I'll have a reason to shell out more than 4,5 bucks at a time rather than continue to waste my money and time.

#18 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmegaHans said:

@Soldier zero: @Soldier zero said:

Right now the X-titles don't seem to even exist in the same continuity of the rest of the MU.

Darn right. Hey I just got an idea since these writers can't seem to find any useful ones lately. People want X-Men put more relevant in the MU again? How about we just stick the X-Men against the Avengers and have a good old fashioned rumble.

Eh? Marvel Comics, did ya read that? Huh put that in your pipe and smoke it.Maybe then I'll have a reason to shell out more than 4,5 bucks at a time rather than continue to waste my money and time.

Yeah, maybe a battle between the X-Men and the Avengers might do the series good!

#19 Posted by jrock85 (2850 posts) - - Show Bio

House of M.

#20 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85 said:

House of M.

Yeah, the moment they killed off so many characters, things got so bad from there.

#21 Posted by PrinceIMC (5422 posts) - - Show Bio

I dunno if I'd say downhill but I think things changed when Claremont came back to it in the early 2000's after the movie came out. It wasn't immediate but things slowly changed from what they were.

#22 Posted by RisingBean (4775 posts) - - Show Bio

Magneto yanking out Logan's Adamantium had me leave the X-title, as well as comics altogether for quite some time.

#23 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceIMC said:

I dunno if I'd say downhill but I think things changed when Claremont came back to it in the early 2000's after the movie came out. It wasn't immediate but things slowly changed from what they were.

Yeah, I didn't care for Claremont's second run on X-Men. It was too out of sync with the mainstream universe.

#24 Posted by Powerzone789 (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@yumyumbubblegum said:

@OmegaHans: Really? I thought Messiah Complex was actually well written, although it was rather tedious to read all the tie ins. Bishop becoming a villain was one of the better outcomes of the post-Morrison era of X-men.

What do you think of the New Hellfire Club introduced during Schism?

the new hellfire club is complete BS i always hated little kid villians they bugged me. and as for recently. Second comeing was an ok arc but necrosha, and curse of the mutants were poorely written.the artwork in messiah complex made me wanna puke and in messiah war they seemed to have redeemed themselves. the only intersting book im reading is uncanny x-force. i cant stand the artwork in wolverine and the x-men and all the other titles seem uninteresting to me so far

#25 Posted by jrock85 (2850 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog:

I'll take Claremont at his worst over Fraction at his best, any day.

#26 Posted by Gambit1024 (9843 posts) - - Show Bio

After Whedon's Astonishing X-Men. I can't think of one epictacular(TM) thing that's happened after that run.

#27 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85: Yeah, I really didn't like Fraction's run of X-Men.

@Gambit1024: Yeah, Joss Whedon's run of Astonishing X-Men was the last good story from the X-Men and then everything went downhill after that.

#28 Posted by yumyumbubblegum (618 posts) - - Show Bio

@Powerzone789: You don't like Chris Bachalo? He's one of my favorite artists. To me, his style represents an urban interpretation of cartoons, hence the radical action sequences. If you don't like Bachalo I'm guessing you dislike Humberto Ramos' work too?

#29 Posted by PolarisJunkie (99 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I remember during Chuck Austen's run when Angel scooped Husk up in his arms and started having sex with her in the air in front of Husk's mother...yeah. That. lol

#30 Posted by jubilee042 (1345 posts) - - Show Bio

house of m and fraction

#31 Posted by SC (13396 posts) - - Show Bio

X-Men started going downhill when Marvel and X-Editors had the idea of making trying to make X-Men more relevant and financially profitable, by making X-Men more like other well selling books, and thus started to ignore what made X-Men such a success before which was because of its differences to other books. This means M-Day and depowering mutants because some creators and their preferences and some fans preferences felt that by having so many mutant characters it watered down the big star characters. Except X-Men were never about some characters being bigger than others, it was about a culture, it was about equality, it was about tension that arises in similar ways tension arises in real life when you get large groups of different and similar people together and try and get them to work together. Its not about Cyclops, or Storm, or Wolverine or Rogue individually, or even those four character. They are just the four characters that are representative of a minority. The characters we know best. Just because there is a few thousands of other mutants doesn't devalue those characters, if anything it enhances them - yet poor and uncreative writing meant they weren't utilized well and the excuse was well... X-Men stories work better when their are only 10 mutants in the world lulz.  
 
In the same vein, they tried to emulate the success of what Grant Morrison was doing (which was his own thing with the X-Men and had its own pros and cons as to how it affected the entire franchise) but its not that easy. You can't just take characters Morrison focused on and revitalized and think that they were popular or good because the character was. Its the dude writing them. So from that seed we ended up with Fraction writing a god king character who was saved an entire race whilst simultaneously neutering the voices and personalities of a dozen good characters. If I wanted to see writers and characters kissing the a$$ of one or two individual characters I'd go and read Justice League..... (lol) 

Moderator
#32 Edited by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1008 posts) - - Show Bio

@Soldier zero said:

I think that the franchise started to go downhill with E for Extinction, Morrison's run. And they pretty much ruined it completly with the decision too keep the mutant out of Civil War.

Everything in hte middle is just a low agonizing decay.

Right now the X-titles don't seem to even exist in the same continuity of the rest of the MU.

@OmegaHans said:

@Soldier zero: @Soldier zero said:

Right now the X-titles don't seem to even exist in the same continuity of the rest of the MU.

Darn right. Hey I just got an idea since these writers can't seem to find any useful ones lately. People want X-Men put more relevant in the MU again? How about we just stick the X-Men against the Avengers and have a good old fashioned rumble.

Eh? Marvel Comics, did ya read that? Huh put that in your pipe and smoke it.Maybe then I'll have a reason to shell out more than 4,5 bucks at a time rather than continue to waste my money and time.

Keeping the X-Men out of Civil War has nothing to do with what happens inside the X-Books, especially in 2011. And the X-Men have always had their own corner in the Marvel Universe.

X-men vs Avengers has happened countless of times. That has nothing to do with the X-Books' sales. Heck, there was a confrontation between the two teams in Children's crusades.

@yumyumbubblegum said:

Does anyone remember Xorn from the New X-men? The guy who had Magneto's powers, physical appearance and overwhelming goal of mutant superiority, but wasn't Magneto....I found that as an absolute garbage piece of writing. To me it seemed as if Morrison (I think), concentrated too much on the death of Jean and as a result lost sight of as to how he would conclude that story line. I think he was also responsible for making Beast more feline (looks like sh*t) and introducing my most hated X-man ever....Beak.

All of your complaints did not make much of an impact and have nothing to do with the modern day stories.

As some have said in this thread, and as I've read many times, M-Day seems to be the thing that started all of the X-Men's current problems. I would even add the numerous X-Events that happened afterwards since they were a result of M-Day or had to deal with consequences of what happened after M-Day. They X-Men use to be about bigotry, relationships, unity, and hope. Now the stories revolve around a few characters as they try to deal with not dying.

#33 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

Matt Fraction.

#34 Posted by xmenboi11z (76 posts) - - Show Bio

When they relied on a new born to bring back the species. Where are they now?? Less that 170! Getting rid of the overwhelming mutant population made sense but KILLING STUDENTS. . . not necessary!!! But come on, the writers made the only way to bring back the population almost impossible now. It's over for the x-men men for right now.

#35 Edited by OmegaHans (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

X-Men started going downhill when Marvel and X-Editors had the idea of making trying to make X-Men more relevant and financially profitable, by making X-Men more like other well selling books, and thus started to ignore what made X-Men such a success before which was because of its differences to other books. This means M-Day and depowering mutants because some creators and their preferences and some fans preferences felt that by having so many mutant characters it watered down the big star characters. Except X-Men were never about some characters being bigger than others, it was about a culture, it was about equality, it was about tension that arises in similar ways tension arises in real life when you get large groups of different and similar people together and try and get them to work together. Its not about Cyclops, or Storm, or Wolverine or Rogue individually, or even those four character. They are just the four characters that are representative of a minority. The characters we know best. Just because there is a few thousands of other mutants doesn't devalue those characters, if anything it enhances them - yet poor and uncreative writing meant they weren't utilized well and the excuse was well... X-Men stories work better when their are only 10 mutants in the world lulz. In the same vein, they tried to emulate the success of what Grant Morrison was doing (which was his own thing with the X-Men and had its own pros and cons as to how it affected the entire franchise) but its not that easy. You can't just take characters Morrison focused on and revitalized and think that they were popular or good because the character was. Its the dude writing them. So from that seed we ended up with Fraction writing a god king character who was saved an entire race whilst simultaneously neutering the voices and personalities of a dozen good characters. If I wanted to see writers and characters kissing the a$$ of one or two individual characters I'd go and read Justice League..... (lol)

Couldn't have said it better.

Oh and what about Xavier? Is he even still relevant in the books anymore?

@JoseDRiveraTCR7 said:

@Soldier zero said:

X-men vs Avengers has happened countless of times. That has nothing to do with the X-Books' sales. Heck, there was a confrontation between the two teams in Children's crusades.

Yeah but that was lame, I'm thinking of specifically putting Hope in the middle of it, let Bishop's 'prophecy' about her come true and have the two teams fight over whether she should live or die. It could be as long as Dark Avengers was if written right. Plus it would make Hope more interesting than the massive floating toilet bowl biscuit aka. waste of time and ink that she currently is now.

Can you tell I don't like the character or what? lol. I want to like her, but give me a reason for gosh sakes...

#36 Posted by yumyumbubblegum (618 posts) - - Show Bio

@JoseDRiveraTCR7: @JoseDRiveraTCR7 said:

All of your complaints did not make much of an impact and have nothing to do with the modern day stories.

Well lets just say I hated the Morrison run in general. Happy chap?

#37 Posted by Powerzone789 (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@yumyumbubblegum said:

@Powerzone789: You don't like Chris Bachalo? He's one of my favorite artists. To me, his style represents an urban interpretation of cartoons, hence the radical action sequences. If you don't like Bachalo I'm guessing you dislike Humberto Ramos' work too?

i don't think any art is actually bad i just don't like it....at all, at least not with any x-books. now Gabriele Dell'Otto...thats one of my favorites

#38 Edited by yumyumbubblegum (618 posts) - - Show Bio

@Powerzone789: ahhh the Secret Wars artist right? Yeah he's in my top 10 artists. Has he done any work this year?

#39 Posted by sky-pirate (111 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@PrinceIMC said:

I dunno if I'd say downhill but I think things changed when Claremont came back to it in the early 2000's after the movie came out. It wasn't immediate but things slowly changed from what they were.

Yeah, I didn't care for Claremont's second run on X-Men. It was too out of sync with the mainstream universe.

ITA

#40 Posted by HexThis (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's what went wrong...

- X-men gained notoriety because it paralleled civil rights in society. What distinguished them from other superheroes was that they were a species or race or minority unto themselves. Nowadays, the mutant race is more of an army than anything and one that has been isolated from the rest of society. The division between mutants and humans is wider than it has ever been...unfortunately not in a very compelling way.

- Everything is under Scott & Wolverine's law but it used to be that other characters had a voice. Jean, Storm, Beast, Nightcrawler, Kitty Pryde, Xavier..their opinions in questions of ethics were far more compelling than Scott & Wolverine's grudge.

- Villains don't have motives that are interesting. A few here and there, maybe, like in Whedon's Astonishing arc but major villains haven't really seemed to have purpose. The purifiers were interesting but ultimately ineffective, who ever knows why Bastion has such a wicked grudge, and the marauders ultimately hoping to interfere with Hope during the Messiah Complex thus endangering her with the fight against the Reavers and Purifiers made no sense.

- Secondary characters have all but fallen off the map completely. There was a time one of my favorite characters Boom Boom had a role and now she's only brought in to be shamed or made a mockery of. Joe Quesada felt as though there were "too many mutants" which led to the excessive near extermination of their numbers in House of M and with Genosha but I always felt the X-men had rich possibilities in it's mutant masses that just needed some creative drive.

- Mystique, Storm, Magneto, Emma, and Namor- characters that once stood for something are now muted by characters like Scott and Wolverine. Mystique was reduced to a soap opera caricature (vastly different from who she once was) while everyone else is taking orders from Scott. It used to be exciting when you'd encounter these characters because they contrasted the X-men's beliefs but weren't necessarily buddy-buddy or completely evil...that's gone now.

- Jean-tease marketing. Marvel doesn't appear to want to bring back Jean but they've had no problem looting her corpse over the years and capitalizing on the chance of her returning or her image, it's something market numbers have depended on (Second Coming, Messiah Complex, the Sisterhood Arc). With foolishly brief deaths like Johnny Storm or Cable there seems to be some unfair bias.

#41 Posted by HexThis (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh and also.... Fraction who is continuity resenting and a lucky fanboy before being a writer and Greg Land who has reduced the X-men to visually resemble mannequins and clippings from tabloids, travel brochures, and stock images.

#42 Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1008 posts) - - Show Bio

@yumyumbubblegum:Yeah, but most of Morrison's stuff have been erased. It has nothing to do with why the stories have gone downhill.

@OmegaHans: Great, put the Avengers and X-Men together. Have another event where the mutant race is on the brink of extinction. Then what? How does pairing the X-Men with the Avengers help most X-characters getting panel time and compelling character development? How will it build another huge villain for the X-Men at a time where they don't have one? How does having another event make the series more accessible to new readers?

The X-Men are representatives of minorities that face bigotry. It still exists, but constantly having the X-Men face genocide isn't relatable. The extinction angle has gone too far and it's constantly being used for X-Events. The X-Men universe has become more bleak because of these events, and this isn't a good thing since the X-Men have always had a silver lining of hope. The X-Men have always felt like a family and they haven't started feeling that way again since until recently.

#43 Posted by Powerzone789 (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@HexThis said:

Here's what went wrong...

- X-men gained notoriety because it paralleled civil rights in society. What distinguished them from other superheroes was that they were a species or race or minority unto themselves. Nowadays, the mutant race is more of an army than anything and one that has been isolated from the rest of society. The division between mutants and humans is wider than it has ever been...unfortunately not in a very compelling way.

- Everything is under Scott & Wolverine's law but it used to be that other characters had a voice. Jean, Storm, Beast, Nightcrawler, Kitty Pryde, Xavier..their opinions in questions of ethics were far more compelling than Scott & Wolverine's grudge.

- Villains don't have motives that are interesting. A few here and there, maybe, like in Whedon's Astonishing arc but major villains haven't really seemed to have purpose. The purifiers were interesting but ultimately ineffective, who ever knows why Bastion has such a wicked grudge, and the marauders ultimately hoping to interfere with Hope during the Messiah Complex thus endangering her with the fight against the Reavers and Purifiers made no sense.

- Secondary characters have all but fallen off the map completely. There was a time one of my favorite characters Boom Boom had a role and now she's only brought in to be shamed or made a mockery of. Joe Quesada felt as though there were "too many mutants" which led to the excessive near extermination of their numbers in House of M and with Genosha but I always felt the X-men had rich possibilities in it's mutant masses that just needed some creative drive.

- Mystique, Storm, Magneto, Emma, and Namor- characters that once stood for something are now muted by characters like Scott and Wolverine. Mystique was reduced to a soap opera caricature (vastly different from who she once was) while everyone else is taking orders from Scott. It used to be exciting when you'd encounter these characters because they contrasted the X-men's beliefs but weren't necessarily buddy-buddy or completely evil...that's gone now.

- Jean-tease marketing. Marvel doesn't appear to want to bring back Jean but they've had no problem looting her corpse over the years and capitalizing on the chance of her returning or her image, it's something market numbers have depended on (Second Coming, Messiah Complex, the Sisterhood Arc). With foolishly brief deaths like Johnny Storm or Cable there seems to be some unfair bias.

wow, you almost literally spoke my mind....

#44 Posted by Powerzone789 (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@yumyumbubblegum: he did X-force's Sex and Violence but he mainly does covers now which is dissapointing, he did alot of the aniialation covers back in 2006 it would be nice to see him on a book though, his art is amazing

#45 Posted by sithfrog (898 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceIMC: I agree 100%. Around the time of the movie and right after The Twelve storyarc was resolved, the X-Books went weird. Between too many ultra radical changes and tight finances, I didn't pick up an X-Men related comic until Whedon started his run on Astonishing. Then that went downhill quickly after he left.

One of my biggest issues with the X-Books in the past decade or so, is how removed they feel from the rest of the Marvel Universe. Essentialy after House of M, no one but Wolverine would show up in the main series of a special event. There would be a mini that woudl tie in, but otherwise it was like Earth shattering events weren't taking place in even the same world as the X-Titles.

#46 Edited by OmegaHans (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@JoseDRiveraTCR7: Gone too far? Not to me. I like it when they're fighting for their very existence against Apocalypse or Nimrod or Sentinels or some sort of biological virus created by anti-mutant racists. I want to read that. On the other hand I hate it when I'm reading something that resembles Young and the Restless or the Real Housewives of Boredom Street or whatever. Fraction's stuff for instance, it's like a bunch of sorority kids sneaking into each others bedrooms at night and pulling pranks on Colossus cause he's too nice of a guy to pimp slap their a**es down.

I like seeing guys like Stryker for instance, the real fanatical types who don't even have powers, but can blow up a bus full of mutant kids and what is the lesson learned? I want to see more extreme social darwinism at the barrel of a gun. Make the X-Men have to fight not only for victory, but for their very lives.

Let Hope finally spaz out with the Phoenix force and go insane in effort to wipe out human civilization which will cause a chain reaction of events to happen, including bringing in the Avengers to stop it, and let Cyke NOT doing anything about it. Let's see Cyke really turn into Magneto this time, hell, let's see him surpass Magneto. He's halfway there anyhow, let it get worse! Let's take wild chances, talk extreme possibilities for things to happen here! It will sell, because the feces will finally have hit the fan for everyone in the MU and something will have to give one way or another. And if there's no happy ending who says we need a freakin happy ending?

OR....

We can just move on with another mundane story about how much the X-Men is going to become a ring around the rosy little family again, and if anyone like Quentin Quire begs to differ, well he can just be put back in his container and whimper about how he can't smooch some Cuckoos. And we'll have a grand old time. And you WILL read it because Marvel says so. :)

Meh. I'm merely throwing ideas out there at the end of the day. I love the X-Men. But it's time to give these books a swift kick in the a**, all I'll say.

#47 Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1008 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmegaHans:

Gone too far? Not to me.

Neither you nor I represent the entire comic book audience. No one does. What is a good representation are the many forums, review sites, and podcasts on the internet. The main complaint is often about how convoluted the X-Men are, and the main source of this is the X-Men events.

On the other hand I hate it when I'm reading something that resembles Young and the Restless or the Real Housewives of Boredom Street or whatever.

Really, you’re arguing against drama in comic books. Drama has almost always been important in superhero comic books. Stan Lee made it even more important when he started the Marvel Age. Alan Moore and Frank Miller influenced the industry to make the drama more “adult, dark, and gritty”. Drama’s been important all throughout the X-Men’s history, especially during the height of their popularity. If you want to read some book that seems like it was written by Michael Bay, then go read some 90s stuff. I’m sure you’ll have EXTREME fun.

Fraction's stuff for instance, it's like a bunch of sorority kids sneaking into each others bedrooms at night and pulling pranks on Colossus cause he's too nice of a guy to pimp slap their a**es down.

I don’t like Matt Fraction’s writing, but what are you talking about? Nothing that you’re trying to mock even happened during his run. The only thing I can think of that you might be referencing is when Colossus got a tattoo, but that storyline was only 1-2 issues. Most of his run was plot centric. Sisterhood, Dark Reign, Utopia, Sebastian Shaw, Quarantine, Second Coming. He run sucked because his characterization were bad, little character development, focusing mostly on two characters, sucky dialogue, and even suckier art.

Let Hope finally spaz out with the Phoenix force and go insane in effort to wipe out human civilization which will cause a chain reaction of events to happen, including bringing in the Avengers to stop it, and let Cyke NOT doing anything about it. Let's see Cyke really turn into Magneto this time, hell, let's see him surpass Magneto. He's halfway there anyhow, let it get worse! Let's take wild chances, talk extreme possibilities for things to happen here! It will sell, because the feces will finally have hit the fan for everyone in the MU and something will have to give one way or another. And if there's no happy ending who says we need a freakin happy ending?

Great fanfiction.

We can just move on with another mundane story about how much the X-Men is going to become a ring around the rosy little family again, and if anyone like Quentin Quire begs to differ, well he can just be put back in his container and whimper about how he can't smooch some Cuckoos. And we'll have a grand old time

I never said I didn’t want conflict. No one would ever make such an argument. Keep beating that strawman.

And you WILL read it because Marvel says so. :)

Yes, because complain about the crap Marvel puts out equals reading anything they tell me to read. Wow, I am a sheep. I guess that's why I don't read much Marvel and have in fact been dropping Marvel books. Marvel should really get back to telling me what to read.

Meh.

Haha. Meh? Really? You get worked up and then try to act apathetic. Okay.

I'm merely throwing ideas out there at the end of the day. I love the X-Men. But it's time to give these books a swift kick in the a**, all I'll say.

The X-Men have been getting a swift kick in the butt for a while know. M-Day, Decimation, Messiah Complex, Messiah War, Second Coming, etc. None of this has stopped the X-Men from going downhill.

#48 Edited by OmegaHans (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@JoseDRiveraTCR7: Lol. I never called you a sheep. Wasn't getting worked up either. And umm yeah, I evidently do not represent the whole of the comic book audience, sorry you took it that way. Just expressing my opinions there bud. I don't mind the drama aspects, but I think it needs to be balanced out. Too much of it is not really my thing.

And as for Fraction, well that's just the vibe I get from his X-Men work I suppose. It's not the worst stuff I've ever read, but I really don't think it is that great either. Just never understood all the hype.

Those stories you mentioned in particular I just think they were decently written but nothing special. The stories of more recent times don't seem to me to be as, let's say, 'timeless' as those like Dark Phoenix saga or Days of Future Past. I don't think there's been stories that good or even half as good in a long time. I won't say they aren't trying but it's been hit and miss at the least since '07 in my view. But by all means, if you don't agree with what I've expressed, keep reading it.

#49 Posted by PowerHerc (85336 posts) - - Show Bio

During the Adversary arc.

#50 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (6028 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

X-Men started going downhill when Marvel and X-Editors had the idea of making trying to make X-Men more relevant and financially profitable, by making X-Men more like other well selling books, and thus started to ignore what made X-Men such a success before which was because of its differences to other books. This means M-Day and depowering mutants because some creators and their preferences and some fans preferences felt that by having so many mutant characters it watered down the big star characters. Except X-Men were never about some characters being bigger than others, it was about a culture, it was about equality, it was about tension that arises in similar ways tension arises in real life when you get large groups of different and similar people together and try and get them to work together. Its not about Cyclops, or Storm, or Wolverine or Rogue individually, or even those four character. They are just the four characters that are representative of a minority. The characters we know best. Just because there is a few thousands of other mutants doesn't devalue those characters, if anything it enhances them - yet poor and uncreative writing meant they weren't utilized well and the excuse was well... X-Men stories work better when their are only 10 mutants in the world lulz. In the same vein, they tried to emulate the success of what Grant Morrison was doing (which was his own thing with the X-Men and had its own pros and cons as to how it affected the entire franchise) but its not that easy. You can't just take characters Morrison focused on and revitalized and think that they were popular or good because the character was. Its the dude writing them. So from that seed we ended up with Fraction writing a god king character who was saved an entire race whilst simultaneously neutering the voices and personalities of a dozen good characters. If I wanted to see writers and characters kissing the a$$ of one or two individual characters I'd go and read Justice League..... (lol)

Exactly! The X-Men stories were memorable because they represented the minorities that were oppressed by society and the older stories did a great job at showing that, even making various parallels to the minority society being treated poorly. However, the X-Men books are just mainly focused on uninteresting plots and keeps on making too many events that prevents the writers from giving the characters more development.

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