What if? Avengers vs. X-men

#1 Posted by soduh2 (863 posts) - - Show Bio

What if the events of Avengers vs. X-men happened the same way leading up to the point when the Phoenix five was created, but Instead of the five X-men being transformed it's 5 Avengers.

Thor

Spider-Man

Wolverine

Captain America

Iron Man

How would this change the story? Would they be "better" phoenix hosts or would they succumb to the same forces as the X-men?

#2 Edited by GonnaRain (752 posts) - - Show Bio

It would be worse, much much worse. But Tony's costume would have been great.

But yeah, it would start great, with everyone in control, with lots and lots of crazy power, but they will succumb one by one. The only one I see maybe resisting it's power before turning into the Dark Phoenix is Thor, because of his Godly origin, but still I don't see him controlling it completely.

#3 Posted by gridde (91 posts) - - Show Bio

I kinda assumed it would go (more or less) exactly the same as it did with the X-Men Phoenix Five.

Steve would take Scott's role; The last to fully succumb and (until then) trying to stay nonlethal while still trying to reshape the world for the better. Scott's goals were selfless but he still got corrupted when pushed far enough, and I believe the same could happen to Steve.

Wolverine would take Namor's role; First to break away and generally go nuts. He'd be the easiest to corrupt and likely do something more horrific than attacking a powerful nation, given his history and predisposition for violence.

Iron Man and Thor would likely take Magick's and Colossus' roles; Just hanging around and gradually getting corrupted. Nothing especially interesting, since neither are prone to evil but neither are famous for their willpower (in comparison to guys like Steve or Spider-Man anyway).

Spider-Man would take Emma Frost's role: Most self-aware about the corruption, but probably getting less involved with the conflict than Emma did. He'd be the most interesting I think, since he's the most down-to-Earth out of all these guys, and his uncompromising beliefs about responsibility may balance out the corruption of the Phoenix somewhat. I could see him giving up his power voluntarily rather than letting it cause harm through his actions.

#4 Posted by soduh2 (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@gridde:

Steve would take Scott's role; The last to fully succumb and (until then) trying to stay nonlethal while still trying to reshape the world for the better. Scott's goals were selfless but he still got corrupted when pushed far enough, and I believe the same could happen to Steve.

Probably get more forgiveness than Cyclops though.

Wolverine would take Namor's role; First to break away and generally go nuts. He'd be the easiest to corrupt and likely do something more horrific than attacking a powerful nation, given his history and predisposition for violence.

Wolverine would probably destroy utopia and kill Cyclops (and Magneto). Maybe destroy a few weapon X facilities too.

Iron Man and Thor would likely take Magick's and Colossus' roles; Just hanging around and gradually getting corrupted. Nothing especially interesting, since neither are prone to evil but neither are famous for their willpower (in comparison to guys like Steve or Spider-Man anyway).

Thor would take the Colossus role, Iron Man would try to change the world into a technological utopia (getting rid of weapons and ending world hunger).

Spider-Man would take Emma Frost's role: Most self-aware about the corruption, but probably getting less involved with the conflict than Emma did. He'd be the most interesting I think, since he's the most down-to-Earth out of all these guys, and his uncompromising beliefs about responsibility may balance out the corruption of the Phoenix somewhat. I could see him giving up his power voluntarily rather than letting it cause harm through his actions.

I would go so far to say his phoenix enhanced Spider-sense would be developed into full on precognition. He'd see the worst case scenario and give away his phoenix powers away after his vision. He would also give Hope his "prophesied training" via telepathy as a result of him giving the phoenix power away.

#5 Posted by soduh2 (863 posts) - - Show Bio

Uncanny Avengers would be Steve Roger's attempt at penence.

Storm and Emma would take control of Wolverine's school, maybe change the name partly in Cyclops' honor. (the Grey-Summers school of higher learning).

I don't see professor Xavier dying.

No early X-men kids.

No telepathic Red Skull.

#6 Posted by JonSmith (3980 posts) - - Show Bio

Steve would immediately try and get Stark to design a device to remove the the Phoenix. Stark, being an addict, would begin working on a device, realize that with the Phoenix's expanded awareness, he can do so much more, and become addicted to using that power for the greater good. Steve would stand against him, trying to convince him that they aren't meant for this kind of power. Basically they're divided similarly to Civil War.

Meanwhile, Wolverine has retreated to a far off, isolated location, meditating to try and keep the Phoenix from corrupting him. Wolverine's a murderer, but he's also an ex-samurai. He knows and fights against what he's capable of in a blood rage. He also knows what would happen if his temper were to slip even for a moment with the power of the Phoenix. So he sits in meditation. Losing himself in his own mind with the power of the Phoenix.

Spider-Man, meanwhile, doesn't really know what to DO with all the power. When he was Captain Universe for that brief time, he knew a threat would pop up he'd have to take care of. This? He has no clue. He'd try and handle his original bad guys, but with the Phoenix backing him up, they don't stand a chance. He realizes that with greater power comes far greater responsibility. He takes up with Stark trying to use their powers to better the world rather than just fighting thugs.

Thor's returned to Asgard for a more... experienced... opinion. Odin would inform him the Phoenix was far too dangerous a force to have in Asgard, and exile him to Earth until it was gone. Thor would not know what to do, but Loki would attempt to manipulate him, knowing the corrupting influence of the Phoenix weighs heavy on the possessed Avengers. Loki would anger Thor, the Phoenix would amplify that. He'd throw Mjolnir, and Mjolnir wouldn't return. Thor realizes that with the Phoenix effecting his mind, he's unworthy. He teams up with Rogers to try and remove the Phoenix.

So, all said and done: We've got Rogers and Thor on one side to remove the Phoenix. Stark and Spidey on the other trying to use it to truly save the world.

Basically comes down to the same conflict as in the original story, only, in my opinion, makes more sense because Thor has already seen that the Phoenix is effecting their minds for the negative. Steve also has a personal stake in stopping this before it goes bad. So his attack is a bit more justified.

Wolverine's the X-Factor. Scott comes up to him and tries to convince him that the Phoenix is a good thing. That it can save mutants. Wolverine continues to relive his view of Jean's descent into madness to bolster his own mind's resolve against the Phoenix. Scott leaves without changing anything.

#7 Posted by soduh2 (863 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith:

1. Its sort implied in AVX that the hosts could choose to remove the phoenix force during their early stages.

2. Captain America isn't completely incorruptible, which may be a reason why he'd keep the power instead of willingly parting with it. Keep in mind he joined the Illuminati after ranting to Iron Man about how much he hated secret organizations. His corruption would probably me more "pure" than selfish. Making himself into a superman-like character protecting the innocent. He would probably lose to Iron Man if/when they faced off against each other.

3. You're right about how Wolverine would start out, but he would likely lose control of himself as he gained another portion of the pheonix force. If Wolvie is one of the last hosts left and Cyclops approaches him about doing something with his powers Wolverine could risk losing control (killing Cyclops as a result).

4. Spider-Man would probably start out on Stark's side but I see Spider-Man willingly giving up his portion of his power (his Spider-Sense giving him a precognitive vision). Intending to give it to Hope, he accidently boosts the power of the other Phoenix hosts.

#8 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5768 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the Avengers would be blamed just like the X-Men when the Phoenix Force took over them.

#9 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3443 posts) - - Show Bio

All of them except Thor would have succumbed, in my opinion. Iron Man would be developing god-like tech that gives access to extremely potent power for the masses (taking Cyclops' "role" as benevolent overseer), Captain America would decide that The American Dream should be everywhere and start conquering other species (he's noble, but he is a bit shallow), Wolverine would be killing villains he has a personal vendetta against and then resurrecting them to do it again while Spider-Man would probably become a being like Madame Web. Thor has experience with nigh omnipotence, and he would probably be the last one standing. Scarlet Witch would be somewhere in the background talking to Hope, but I don't think she would be able to get rid of the PF as she did last time; she'd be too guilt-ridden to "destroy" more Avengers.

I doubt any of them would bother to bring back mutants, though. They didn't really care about M Day, and they are used to dealing with extreme amounts of power from the other side, so I think most of them would go bad within one or two issues since four of them actively sought out ways to become more powerful.

#10 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

Steve would immediately try and get Stark to design a device to remove the the Phoenix. Stark, being an addict, would begin working on a device, realize that with the Phoenix's expanded awareness, he can do so much more, and become addicted to using that power for the greater good. Steve would stand against him, trying to convince him that they aren't meant for this kind of power. Basically they're divided similarly to Civil War.

Meanwhile, Wolverine has retreated to a far off, isolated location, meditating to try and keep the Phoenix from corrupting him. Wolverine's a murderer, but he's also an ex-samurai. He knows and fights against what he's capable of in a blood rage. He also knows what would happen if his temper were to slip even for a moment with the power of the Phoenix. So he sits in meditation. Losing himself in his own mind with the power of the Phoenix.

Spider-Man, meanwhile, doesn't really know what to DO with all the power. When he was Captain Universe for that brief time, he knew a threat would pop up he'd have to take care of. This? He has no clue. He'd try and handle his original bad guys, but with the Phoenix backing him up, they don't stand a chance. He realizes that with greater power comes far greater responsibility. He takes up with Stark trying to use their powers to better the world rather than just fighting thugs.

Thor's returned to Asgard for a more... experienced... opinion. Odin would inform him the Phoenix was far too dangerous a force to have in Asgard, and exile him to Earth until it was gone. Thor would not know what to do, but Loki would attempt to manipulate him, knowing the corrupting influence of the Phoenix weighs heavy on the possessed Avengers. Loki would anger Thor, the Phoenix would amplify that. He'd throw Mjolnir, and Mjolnir wouldn't return. Thor realizes that with the Phoenix effecting his mind, he's unworthy. He teams up with Rogers to try and remove the Phoenix.

So, all said and done: We've got Rogers and Thor on one side to remove the Phoenix. Stark and Spidey on the other trying to use it to truly save the world.

Basically comes down to the same conflict as in the original story, only, in my opinion, makes more sense because Thor has already seen that the Phoenix is effecting their minds for the negative. Steve also has a personal stake in stopping this before it goes bad. So his attack is a bit more justified.

Wolverine's the X-Factor. Scott comes up to him and tries to convince him that the Phoenix is a good thing. That it can save mutants. Wolverine continues to relive his view of Jean's descent into madness to bolster his own mind's resolve against the Phoenix. Scott leaves without changing anything.

sounds about right.

@gridde: @PhoenixoftheTides: @soduh2:

have none of you guys never read Uncanny X-men #11? Wolverine gets god-like powers in that, and it takes him all of three panels to realize that no one should have that kind of power, because, y'know, he actually learned something from the Dark Phoenix Saga. And Secret Wars II, I guess.

Really, you should check it out; it's some pretty key character development for Wolverine. Plus, sweet Alan Davis art.

#11 Edited by gridde (91 posts) - - Show Bio

The major difference to how things ended in canon AVX -I believe- would be that the conflict may simply fizzle out if the Avengers got the Phoenix. If any of the Phoenix Avengers did manage to bring back mutants, there's a very good chance that the X-Men would stop attacking them. Restoration of the mutants was the only goal of the X-Men, so if this happened and the Avengers just left them alone after that, I don't see any reason why Scott would try fighting them. Stuff like Civil War and Dark Reign has shown that they stay out of the affairs of the rest of the world when they're not directly threatened.

One of the oddest things about AVX was that the Avengers were hell-bent on fighting the Phoenix Five even after they made clear they wanted to help the world. Steve and the Avengers have always had a "the world can only be saved by us" approach to things (see: Emperor Doom, Doomwar and Children's Crusade here), hence why they kept on provoking the Five and arguably pushed each of them into getting corrupted much quicker. The X-Men in a reversed scenario would have no reason to fight once mutantkind is restored, and so without them provoking the Phoenix Avengers, things may end very differently. With enough time and with no one constantly attacking them, guys like Steve or Spider-Man may actually make good hosts.

Though, that's all assuming any of them bothered to help the mutants. If they didn't, the X-Men would probably fight for control of the Phoenix and the story would parallel the canon AVX.

The Phoenix Force is very different to just getting god-like powers though. It profoundly effects and corrupts the mind, which is why everyone is assuming that all the hosts could very well turn evil. Out of all the X-Men and hypothetical Avengers hosts, Wolverine arguably has the shortest fuse and definitely has the highest predisposition to violence.

#12 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (3443 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984: The point of AVX was that the Phoenix corrupts the holders of that type of power, hence Wolverine could start with noble intentions of getting rid of it and end up getting influenced by the potential to do good or ill. He could also give it up, and immediately lose his fragment. It could go either way. But personally, given his inconsistency, I think Marvel would take the opportunity to have Wolverine fight enemies that are usually out of his capabilities.

Heck, Emma Frost swore vengeance against the Phoenix Force and has a bad history with it, but that didn't stop her from relishing wielding it. Granted, she's a different personality type from Logan, but she still ended up liking it. Even Jean liked using the Power in the Shi'Ar arc before the DP saga, and she's used as an example of a very noble person.

@gridde said:

The major difference to how things ended in canon AVX -I believe- would be that the conflict may simply fizzle out if the Avengers got the Phoenix. If any of the Phoenix Avengers did manage to bring back mutants, there's a very good chance that the X-Men would stop attacking them. Restoration of the mutants was the only goal of the X-Men, so if this happened and the Avengers just left them alone after that, I don't see any reason why Scott would try fighting them. Stuff like Civil War and Dark Reign has shown that they stay out of the affairs of the rest of the world when they're not directly threatened.

One of the oddest things about AVX was that the Avengers were hell-bent on fighting the Phoenix Five even after they made clear they wanted to help the world. Steve and the Avengers have always had a "the world can only be saved by us" approach to things (see: Emperor Doom, Doomwar and Children's Crusade here), hence why they kept on provoking the Five and arguably pushed each of them into getting corrupted much quicker. The X-Men in a reversed scenario would have no reason to fight once mutantkind is restored, and so without them provoking the Phoenix Avengers, things may end very differently. With enough time and with no one constantly attacking them, guys like Steve or Spider-Man may actually make good hosts.

Though, that's all assuming any of them bothered to help the mutants. If they didn't, the X-Men would probably fight for control of the Phoenix and the story would parallel the canon AVX.

I agree with that.

#13 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@gridde: @PhoenixoftheTides: I do agree with what both of you guys are saying (especially about the Avengers going all Squadron Supreme/Illuminati on everyone), I just really don't see Wolverine reacting like that in this situation, and I'm basing that on how he was written when he was written well, so it kind of seems like you guys are just assuming that he would be written out of character.

I know that he (like everyone in AvsX) came out looking like a bit of an ass, but I don't think he was written out of character.

#14 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

Still be crap.

#15 Edited by gridde (91 posts) - - Show Bio

We've seen in other stories as well, such as Old Man Logan, that it doesn't take very much for him to go into a killing frenzy...and that's without a cosmic entity controlling his mind. I'm not saying that as soon as he gets power he'll abuse it, I'm arguing that he (much more than the others, anyway) is always making an effort to keep his rage and violent tendencies in check, and so is easier to corrupt than more moral guys like Spider-Man. Whereas Captain America or Iron Man would have to be fully corrupted to go around killing people, Logan need only be 'unleashed'.

#16 Posted by soduh2 (863 posts) - - Show Bio

It looks like the debate lies on how would Wolverine handle it. Would he retain control or be the first to do something really bad?

#17 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3443 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984: I think he was written inconsistently, but as someone mentioned on another post, most major comic characters are inconsistent due to the amount of writers dealing with them. It is very hard to use high points of a character from other stories when so much in AvX involved the negative parts of their personalities and some CIS.

#18 Posted by krspaceT (1461 posts) - - Show Bio

What if Spiderman saw the Burglar (Is he still around?) while in Phoenix mode?

#19 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@gridde: oh, okay. I see what you mean.

@PhoenixoftheTides: very true. the story I cited was really the only thing in canon that I could think of that seems like a comparable situation is all. Have you read it yet? it's quite good.

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