The Extraordinary X-Men

#1 Edited by Emequious_Swerve (1273 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, so there use to be this guy named Chris Claremont who wrote the X-Men for about 15 years single handedly. He brought them to the popularity they would achieve and created a good deal of character and concepts that would live on in the X-books for a long time afterward. Unfortunately, differing opinions from the artists and editors forced him out,and now, about 20 something years later, the X-Men are terrible. The same characters doing the same things and fighting the same villains over and over and any major changes they do make seem illogical and forced (Cyclops). So much so that I am not even really all that interested in the X-Men anymore

A big thing with the 80s X-Men books I always noticed is Claremont had the characters grow and change and there was a sense of revival and renewal that remained consistent. This was great, the characters didn't stagnate this way. I am pretty much using this idea as my basis.

So, basically this is my "What If" X-Men book. This is the pretty much 8-10 years from the present and features an X-Men team that constantly evolves and grows with most of the members that were prominent in the early 90's are not around anymore. They went the same way as the characters of the past, they did stuff like retire, quit, die or become evil. This is the X-Men of the future

Mentor-Magneto

Why Him?- Xavier dies PERMANENTLY. He realizes for like the third time that he is just contradicting himself, while he is attempting to free his people from prosecution (mutants) he is subjugating humanity like a dictator once did to his people. I think at one point it was always intended for him to become the X-mens mentor, the story started building with Uncanny X-Men # 150 it just ad many wrenches thrown into those workings. I am just basically following through with the original idea

His powers- Same old powers.

Personality- A lot more militant than Xavier ever was, definitely doesn't trust humanity as much either, but encounters with a lot of villainous mutant doesn't leave him with a lot of trust for a lot of mutants either these days. His inheritance of the X-Men has actually led to some more well known members defecting

Team Leader-Cannonball

Why Him?- Up until X-Force 1st series ended, Sam Guthrie was seemingly always supposed to be the future leader of Mutantkind, then he was the first New Mutant to join the X-Men, then I guess the writers forgot he existed, poor Sam.

His powers- Flying, namesake abilities he always had. In addition I would greatly boost his H2H combat skills. In which he couples his fighting abilities with his kinetic field so that he is able to throw down with super humans. He would overall be a dangerous opponent in battle.

Personality-Look, this has guy has trained under Professor X, under Magneto, under Cyclops (in this reality) and under freakin' Cable. There is no reason to think that Cannonballs leadership wouldn't be better than the likes of Captain America.

He wouldn't be perfect though, his time with the X-Men has seen a lot of death and tragedy, he is sort of jaded at times and second guesses himself but he I wouldn't have him as a boyscout type. He would kind of function like Dick Grayson when he led the Titans

Co-Leader- Jubilee

Why her?- I don't know, I just have always liked Jubilee. Just a fact: Jubilee led the X-Men in a reality called "MC2"

Her Powers- In an issue of X-Men in the early nineties it was said that Jubilee could detonate things on a sub atomic level. That always intrigued me, along with this development I would have her able to use paffs on Dazzlers level.

Personality- One thing I always liked about Jubilee is that she didn't seem to invested in "Xaviers dream" I always felt she enjoyed the "being a super hero" aspect of being an X-Man more. So she considers herself more of a super hero and often tries to convince the public that the X-men are just as good as The Avengers. When they decline, she calls them lame wads, because thats what she does.

Moonstar

Why Her?- Wanted a magic user, I like Magik but I think her past is too convoluted, not like Danis' is easy to follow, but I feel she should not have been resurrected anyways seeing as her death by the Legacy Virus felt more meaningful. Besides, lt had always seemed like Dani would have an important future, along the lines of someone like Storm.

Her Powers- She learns Asgardian magic at some point and gets Helas cloak at another, she is a valkryie and regains her mutant ability to create astral weapons

Personality- Becomes harsh and cold. Her powers also make her unstable to points where there will be a Dark Phoenix feel going on. Not that I am saying I will just rehash that story, I am saying that her power and mental stability will be at frightening levels

Marrow

Why Her?- The writers at X-Men seemed to be heavily pushing Marrow in the late 90's. Then abandoned her. I always thought she was an awesome, unique character and definitely has more potential

Her Powers- C'Mon, Marrow has the abilities to not only fire sharp projectiles but she can just whip out bone swords at any time, not to mention a healing factor which became almost as fast as Wolverines and her high pain threshold makes her pretty unstoppable. How is Marrow not awesome??

Personality- I always preferred "feral" Sara. So she will very much fill the Wolverine analogue void that is commonplace in comics. She won't be exactly like that, in fact, a lot of the future X-Mens antagonists are merciless and more volatile than anything the "Cyclops/Professor X era" teams ever faced. So Marrow makes Wolverine look like Dr. Suess. She is not totally savage, she retains likable qualities and strives to be more human.

Gentle

Why Him?- I like this character. He has a unique look and his abilities kind of separate him from generic team bruiser

His Powers- Extreme strength as an adult put him at really high levels imaginably. However, the strain on his body only allows it temporarily, I just think the fact that he cannot maintain this form for a long time leads to a lot of cool situations in stories.

Personality- He has been represented as calm and passive, which I would also have him become highly intelligent over the years, studying under Wakandas best scholars. He is a shining beacon for Mutantkind following in the footsteps of Professor X and Henry McCoy.

?????

Who?- Another male. Original character. I was thinking maybe as an homage to Claremont, who created the Neo to be a big deal, they just never panned out. Have this character be a Neo who left his Warclan to be an X-Man

His powers- Look, you can try to be original all you want, it rarely ever works especially now of days in mainstream comics like X-Men. People love archetypes, so I was thinking this character could be that "super cool fanboy character" archetype, You know characters like Longshot, Gambit, Shatterstar Fantomex, Grifter have perpetuated this paradigm. So naturally, he would have enhanced reflexes, agility, maybe carry a sword or gun and be a ninja or something

Personality- well, he could be a bit different from his predecessors, perhaps more noble and comedic as opposed to being a generic "bad ass". Perhaps he will sometimes mess up and put his team mates at risk due to him being a rookie, a well trained rookie, but a rookie none the less

What would happen?- Days of the Future Past slightly happens, meaning mutants are openly hunted but the world isn't post apocalyptic. Its just a lot more dangerous similar to Operation Zero Tolerance story, only more vast. Lots of new villains and there are still villains operating under the Brotherhood moniker and the Hellfire Club banner. Though it isn't the same characters the X-Men we know have always fought.

I think an adult Quentin Quire would be a great primary antagonist.

Let me know what you think about this please!! Would you read something like this? What would you change?? What would you add?

#2 Posted by McKlayn (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

i like, the selling point for me was Cannonball as the leader. Love this guy hes so misused in the Marvel universe, i would of liked more of the Gen X characters added maybe chamber or husk, but yea kudos

#3 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve: big YES on Cannonball and Moonstar (who, like you say, were meant to be leading the team by now), love that you have Magneto and Jubilee in there too.

Still seems like it's missing something, but I definitely like that you started with those four.

#4 Posted by t3hLomb (55 posts) - - Show Bio

It would have to be called Xtraordinary X-Men.

It think it's Marvel law.

#5 Edited by Emequious_Swerve (1273 posts) - - Show Bio

@mcklayn: Thank You :). I considered other Generation X members, but when I thought about it, Skin was sort of lame and a stereotype, Synchs potential would have made him too powerful as an adult, I have no clue what Penances/Hollows story is these days, I find Ms abilities to be just too convenient and perfect, Chamber never seemed interested in being an actual X-Man and just more interested in being normal again, and Husk was never written very good, so naturally, she never appealed to me. I am not going to say I have read every appearance of those characters outside of Generation X but I have read that series whole run.

I haven't read Marvel comics in a while but from what I understand, Cannonball is an Avenger now. Random.

@oldnightcrawler:Thanks for the input. After I posted I thought, "crap, I should have had a telepath" seeing as its commonplace the X-Men always have a telepath. At the same time, as I mentioned Days of the Future Past is slightly happening so I would figure the sentinels would quell telepaths first seeing as humanity would consider them the biggest threats. As I also mentioned, I would have the team change and grow so I there would be some other characters joining in here and there.

@t3hlomb:LOL. You are right. I don't think I can go back and change the title though unfortunately.

#6 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler:Thanks for the input. After I posted I thought, "crap, I should have had a telepath" seeing as its commonplace the X-Men always have a telepath. At the same time, as I mentioned Days of the Future Past is slightly happening so I would figure the sentinels would quell telepaths first seeing as humanity would consider them the biggest threats. As I also mentioned, I would have the team change and grow so I there would be some other characters joining in here and there.

eh, I dunno, I do like that telepathy is generally part of what's going on with the X-men, but if you had Moonstar restored to her full powers, I think that would be close enough. Some times it's more interesting not to do the obvious thing. I feel like I've read stories where they didn't have a telepath on the team, so Rogue had to absorb someone's memories; sometimes that sort of thing can be cooler.

But if you were going to have a telepath, I'd suggest M or Blindfold, just for how they'd interact with the others.

#7 Posted by Emequious_Swerve (1273 posts) - - Show Bio

eh, I dunno, I do like that telepathy is generally part of what's going on with the X-men, but if you had Moonstar restored to her full powers, I think that would be close enough. Some times it's more interesting not to do the obvious thing. I feel like I've read stories where they didn't have a telepath on the team, so Rogue had to absorb someone's memories; sometimes that sort of thing can be cooler.

But if you were going to have a telepath, I'd suggest M or Blindfold, just for how they'd interact with the others.

Very true, a big part is I am going try to ditch all the stereotypes of typical X-Men stories so I guess not having a telepath was for the best, like I mentioned, the Sentinels would target them first. Danis powers would be restored, but I don't know about all of them, If I remember right she had a bunch of different ones, since she is going to have some magical abilities I was just going to restore Astral weapon forming ability, I mean telepathy would have to be a part of that but as a very low level.

I have never really cared for blindfold or M, Blindfold was just a Destiny ripoff and M is just too much of a convenient character. If I were to use someone with TP I would be more inclined to come up with a new character altogether.

#8 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve: well, Dani's original powers were that she could show people their worst fears (which later she did through the use of astral arrows), so she must be empathic, in that she can read people's minds to some degree, as well as an illusionist (like Mastermind) in that she can make people believe that they are seeing something they aren't. How those two things combined don't count as telepathy, I'm not sure, but it could be that she only has a specialized form of telepathy that only effects certain parts of the mind. Also, she used to have visions when bad things were going to happen, so she's probably a little clairvoyant too. Sort of a mixed bag of low-level mental abilities, which is a little more interesting I suppose.

As for M, it's your team, so I'm not gonna bug you about it. But, if the Sentinels went after the telepaths first, it would make sense that she'd stand a better chance of surviving than a lot of the others due to her enhanced physical durability..

#9 Edited by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I have to agree about Mirage being a useful psychic for the team. When she had her powers they changed a lot and it seemed like with maturity came better control and complexity. I would also classify her a low level empath as well as telepath. Similar to how Psylocke had been portrayed after her body swap. And those psionic arrows worked much like Psylocke's psychic knife, so i would not have been surprised how far Dani could have honed her power more. The last skills she had been developing were psychometric abilities to read the emotional/traumatic impressions of crime scene and visualize what happened there with an illusion. So if and when she gets her powers back it would be cool to see what she could do next. And i think her animal rapport ability should have expanded to humans since we are animals after all. Oh well i guess they wanted to stick with the whole native princess fantasy when they though her up.

#10 Edited by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve: So i really like the concept for this team and most you cast. Being a big New Mutants fun i love that you are incorporating some of those ideas from when Magneto become their headmaster and went good. I do think though maybe you are missing a piece or two to your puzzle. I am not sure what other characters i would like to see on the team but i would suggest an older female mentor type to be foil/friend/partner for Magento and perhaps another young mutant who can be our POV character like Kitty and Jubilee were. I like having a team that spans all the different generations and can come together like a family in the face of such extreme antagonistic forces.

I have a question would this story be an alternative universe team or one you would like to see in the future of the current X-books? And if you don't mind could you maybe expand on what happened to the other X-men and if there other teams with other senior X-men. As a team right now in the Marvel U i could this happening but in the premise you described i am not sure how they come together?

#11 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I have to agree about Mirage being a useful psychic for the team. When she had her powers they changed a lot and it seemed like with maturity came better control and complexity. I would also classify her a low level empath as well as telepath. Similar to how Psylocke had been portrayed after her body swap. And those psionic arrows worked much like Psylocke's psychic knife, so i would not have been surprised how far Dani could have honed her power more. The last skills she had been developing were psychometric abilities to read the emotional/traumatic impressions of crime scene and visualize what happened there with an illusion. So if and when she gets her powers back it would be cool to see what she could do next. And i think her animal rapport ability should have expanded to humans since we are animals after all.

yeah, that sounds about right.

#12 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, so there use to be this guy named Chris Claremont who wrote the X-Men for about 15 years single handedly. He brought them to the popularity they would achieve and created a good deal of character and concepts that would live on in the X-books for a long time afterward. Unfortunately, differing opinions from the artists and editors forced him out,and now, about 20 something years later, the X-Men are terrible. The same characters doing the same things and fighting the same villains over and over and any major changes they do make seem illogical and forced (Cyclops). So much so that I am not even really all that interested in the X-Men anymore

Had me with Jubilee, but this quote (the bold bits)...so much truth.

#13 Posted by McKlayn (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

Im a fan of CHamber, and just honestly at some points the people aren't given the option of being an X man or not, they have to be to survive, i also like Husk (i think mainly cause of her power) and considering she is Cannonball's little sister, and was for the most part Chambers love interest and a good friend of Jubilee's both characters would make a nice fit into the chemistry of the team imo

#14 Posted by papad1992 (6793 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve:

Really cool... the concept is original while the characters are uniquely chosen! Great job. I'd add one of the New X-Men students (like Anole for stealth, or Hellion for telekinesis, or Prodigy for intel, or Match for elemental power). But that's all I'd add.

As far as adding a telepathic member... I'd think about either M, Blindfold (like mentioned above) No-Girl or Carter Ghazikhanian. People always seem to forget about him and his mom, Nurse Annie.

#16 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve: okay, well if the Sentinels go for the telepaths first, here's how I think that would go down:

I think only Rachel, Monet, and maybe Psylocke (depending on what powers she had at the time) would stand a real chance against Sentinels as good as Nimrod, because of their other abilities.

Karma, Chamber, No-girl, and Mastermind don't really stand a chance, sadly.

I'm inclined to include Emma, the Cuckoos, and Quire in this second group, but they're all supposed to be especially clever, and at least a little ruthless, so they might think of something like using baseline humans (or even other mutants) as human shields.

Moonstar and Blindfold might stand a chance due to their precognitive powers. Also, besides being quite resourceful, Moonstar could stand a much better chance if she had magic and/or Valkyrie powers.

Also DON'T COUNT OUT THE FALCON!!

#17 Posted by XsPectre28 (739 posts) - - Show Bio

keep going man

#18 Posted by McKlayn (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Chambers power are telepathic based but his blast are really powerful, i think he would at least stand a chance esp better the No Girl or Mastermind. He has been shown (and event hinted at being omega level) to be able to blow things to pieces without much of a problem in one of the latest astonishing he destroyed a holographic Sabertooth with no problem, so i think your really under estimating him just a bit. Not saying hes no where near as powerful as Rachel but yea

#19 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@mcklayn said:

@oldnightcrawler: Chambers power are telepathic based but his blast are really powerful, i think he would at least stand a chance esp better the No Girl or Mastermind. He has been shown (and event hinted at being omega level) to be able to blow things to pieces without much of a problem in one of the latest astonishing he destroyed a holographic Sabertooth with no problem, so i think your really under estimating him just a bit. Not saying hes no where near as powerful as Rachel but yea

oh, I hadn't forgotten about Chamber's formidable offensive powers, but without tk (like Rachel or Psylocke) or invulnerability (like Monet), he seems pretty vulnerable. But you are right that he shouldn't be completely counted out, I suppose.

#20 Posted by HAWK2916 (2072 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the team. I think it really would/should be called X-traordinary Xmen. Though i like the idea of Gentle, I'll admit I havent been much of a fan of his, though it would be great for him to be in the role of Black Panther or Namor in sometimes being with the team but focusing on ruling Wakanda in some way. Never been a big fan of Jubilee either but I could enjoy her in this. If you went that direction the 1st story arc could be about curing Jubilee of being a vampire and restoring her powers and Moonstar regaining and honing her skills. I like Moonstar having Asgardian powers, though I think I would simplify it just a little. She could fire psionic arrows that have a similar effect like Psylockes knife. She should also be able to teleport but it would be dangerous as she would teleport using the Bifrost Bridge (somewhat similar to Magik going through Limbo) so this could cause run-ins with Asguardian realm at times, she would also have telepathy and be an empath able to see peoples worst fears and weaknesses and could communicate with animals. Monet or Rachel would be good as the telepath. All in all I think my team would be:

Cannonball, Chamber, Monet, Husk, Marrow and Moonstar. If you needed an elemental I'd say use Magma. Though I like the idea of Magneto being a mentor or even Emma Frost I would like a fresh newer type of mentor for this team. Maybe have Rogue in that capacity or someone less known like Amelia Voght.

#21 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

Two things to gain my approval. Have Cyclops as a grizzled old man in his late forties as a burn out looking for redemption as the Mentor. Lastly NO morlocks.

#22 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

Two things to gain my approval. Have Cyclops as a grizzled old man in his late forties as a burn out looking for redemption as the Mentor.

like Magneto was in the 80's?

Lastly NO morlocks.

so no Marrow then?

#23 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio

Very good OP.

#24 Edited by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Just my experience. The Morlocks in ANY capacity seem to lure creative ruination. I would like this to succeed should it ever actually be employed. (eh, sort of but far more pronounced)

To further the Scott idea it make it so Jean returned long ago, but Scott and she never completely got back together. Jean recruits the new mutants into a team one of which (would be the question mark perhaps) Scott's own nephew.Alex and Lorna's son, who favors Christopher and Scott's father painfully. Burned out on the failure to truly help mutants during the new Uncanny and the subsequent years he becomes a drunkard and hated and shunned by every X-Man still alive. Even though cleared of wrong doing by amnesty (or something else) he might as well live behind bars as he has become the warden to the prison he himself made. The only one to still have faith in him is Jean, as even Cable has turned him back on him. Let him make that path back based on his desire to protect his nephew driven by his failure to be a father to Cable or Rachel or Nate. Let the nephew rekindle the fire of Xavier's dream and be the kind of mutant hero that not only the species need but the world needs. Let him inspire Scott to rebirth himself and mentor the group with Jean as they fumble and struggle to find their place together again, one and for all. At the end of the final few story arcs, let Scott and Jean be the ones to die together to save the new team from disaster and redeem himself and find eternal peace finally having succeeded in the dream Charles envisioned.

So there my two cents.

#25 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Just my experience. The Morlocks in ANY capacity seem to lure creative ruination. I would like this to succeed should it ever actually be employed. (eh, sort of but far more pronounced)

To further the Scott idea it make it so Jean returned long ago, but Scott and she never completely got back together. Jean recruits the new mutants into a team one of which (would be the question mark perhaps) Scott's own nephew.Alex and Lorna's son, who favors Christopher and Scott's father painfully. Burned out on the failure to truly help mutants during the new Uncanny and the subsequent years he becomes a drunkard and hated and shunned by every X-Man still alive. Even though cleared of wrong doing by amnesty (or something else) he might as well live behind bars as he has become the warden to the prison he himself made. The only one to still have faith in him is Jean, as even Cable has turned him back on him. Let him make that path back based on his desire to protect his nephew driven by his failure to be a father to Cable or Rachel or Nate. Let the nephew rekindle the fire of Xavier's dream and be the kind of mutant hero that not only the species need but the world needs. Let him inspire Scott to rebirth himself and mentor the group with Jean as they fumble and struggle to find their place together again, one and for all. At the end of the final few story arcs, let Scott and Jean be the ones to die together to save the new team from disaster and redeem himself and find eternal peace finally having succeeded in the dream Charles envisioned.

So there my two cents.

I have to admire the passion and purpose behind this general idea, especially as it makes the most sense with my own interpretation of Cyclops' overall story arc and where it should go; but I do see two major flaws in the logic of it: 1.) Jean is and should still be long dead by then, and 2.) Cyclops only fathered one child. Otherwise, though, it makes perfect sense to me.

#26 Edited by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: This is marvel bro. If bucky can't stay dead, I don't see the issue with Jean. Besides I project within the next 12-24 months Jean (Old) will have returned on her own anyway. Jean is necessary honestly to end Scott's story, he is the Alpha, She is the Omega. They cannot really begin nor end unless they are together, there would be abhorrent vacuum at the end of Scott's story which just snowball the New Mutants story line long after he died. (See that Marvel editorial staff? That's called foresight.) Let Scott end the golden age and truly pass the torch of hope to a new generation and not just another f***ing problem.

That is one the GREATEST issues with X-Men, it has become SO bleak it is emotionally exhausting at times to read it. During Claremont and Simonson's run they "exercised" you until you were tired then gave you reprieve in cycles. This story model just WORKS. Excessive and continuous abuse / darkness in the series is just creating an emotional parasite. I'm not a masochist so I never pay full price for these X titles anymore, I wait until its in the buck bin. If the series had the same quality as it did then I would pay a ten dollar cover up to four titles a month. It would be all I need to read. Digressing.

The child issue... just because 616 Scott only sired one (Cable) doesn't mean he would not somehow feel responsible for the lives of the other two. In fact, by Scott taking on too much responsibility it fits him perfectly. In fact, based on the premise which he clearly is detached from Cable, would be an excellent excuse for him to transpose his repressed feelings on to Nate and Rachel in order to compensate for his sense of loss. He doesn't even refer to Cable as Christopher, which is VERY unusual for a father, time displaced or not.

#27 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: This is marvel bro. If bucky can't stay dead, I don't see the issue with Jean. Besides I project within the next 12-24 months Jean (Old) will have returned on her own anyway. Jean is necessary honestly to end Scott's story, he is the Alpha, She is the Omega. They cannot really begin nor end unless they are together, there would be abhorrent vacuum at the end of Scott's story which just snowball the New Mutants story line long after he died. (See that Marvel editorial staff? That's called foresight.) Let Scott end the golden age and truly pass the torch of hope to a new generation and not just another f***ing problem.

I don't know, I like Jean well enough, but I personally will feel more than a little cheated if they bring her back again, and I really hope that they don't. I don't see that she's necessary to Cyclops' redemption or anything else at this point, and I think it's long past time they moved on from that sort of thing. But that's my opinion.

#28 Edited by Polarity (106 posts) - - Show Bio

If we're having a grizzled Scott, it's got to be one with an Earth X combover.

#29 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Actually I feel the same but only more so. Jean never should never have died in the first place. The phoenix self sacrifice as Jean was the greatest possible death she could (and did) ever have (even though technically it was phoenix dying and not Jean herself). This is impossible to top or even equal, it was unprecedented then and made for a historical saga. There was NO point to killing her, in universe nor beyond the 4th wall. At least this way she could end her complete story line by book ending with Cyclops end. I think of it as the simplicity of solving Scott completely and it just cannot be done without Jean. It would be a hollow and meaningless story line without her as the prompt and promise of Xavier's dream possibly being fulfilled in part by Cyclops.

#30 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

If we're having a grizzled Scott, it's got to be one with an Earth X combover.

he's right.

@oldnightcrawler: Actually I feel the same but only more so. Jean never should never have died in the first place. The phoenix self sacrifice as Jean was the greatest possible death she could (and did) ever have (even though technically it was phoenix dying and not Jean herself). This is impossible to top or even equal, it was unprecedented then and made for a historical saga. There was NO point to killing her, in universe nor beyond the 4th wall.

I think there was a point, and I still kinda hate that they retconed it. I mean, I liked her when I first got into comics, and I wouldn't have been able to like her then if they hadn't, but I still sort of wish they hadn't.

At least this way she could end her complete story line by book ending with Cyclops end. I think of it as the simplicity of solving Scott completely and it just cannot be done without Jean. It would be a hollow and meaningless story line without her as the prompt and promise of Xavier's dream possibly being fulfilled in part by Cyclops.

This I totally disagree with. Cyclops was a great character for like 5 after Jean died (and for the 5 years before, when he was on the team without her), and he's been a great character in the ten years since she actually died. I think his story is far bigger than hers, despite hers being such a big part of his. I can see the kind of circular symbolism you're going for, but I really just can't see any way it wouldn't be overly contrived.

#31 Edited by Avenger85 (2017 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

@polarity said:

If we're having a grizzled Scott, it's got to be one with an Earth X combover.

he's right.

@chasereis said:

@oldnightcrawler: Actually I feel the same but only more so. Jean never should never have died in the first place. The phoenix self sacrifice as Jean was the greatest possible death she could (and did) ever have (even though technically it was phoenix dying and not Jean herself). This is impossible to top or even equal, it was unprecedented then and made for a historical saga. There was NO point to killing her, in universe nor beyond the 4th wall.

I think there was a point, and I still kinda hate that they retconed it. I mean, I liked her when I first got into comics, and I wouldn't have been able to like her then if they hadn't, but I still sort of wish they hadn't.

At least this way she could end her complete story line by book ending with Cyclops end. I think of it as the simplicity of solving Scott completely and it just cannot be done without Jean. It would be a hollow and meaningless story line without her as the prompt and promise of Xavier's dream possibly being fulfilled in part by Cyclops.

This I totally disagree with. Cyclops was a great character for like 5 after Jean died (and for the 5 years before, when he was on the team without her), and he's been a great character in the ten years since she actually died. I think his story is far bigger than hers, despite hers being such a big part of his. I can see the kind of circular symbolism you're going for, but I really just can't see any way it wouldn't be overly contrived.

I have to disagree with you on this. Since the very FIRST X-Men issue, Jean has been the biggest part of Scott's story and an equally large part of the X-Men story. Like Chaereis mentioned, they are the Alpha and Omega of the X-Men. Their stories are linked.

And speaking of being a great character, I have to disagree about that as well. Cyclops' downfall began in the early 2000s during the Apocalypse possession story, then went steadily downhill until the miserable pile of turd that is AvX. These days, Cyclops sure has the "cool" factor and all that crap, and is also doing the right thing for mutantkind, but really, IMHO he's just a pale shadow of his former self, and in my opinion not half als cool as his X-Factor & early 90s days.

P.S. it's nice to see that at least someone remembers that Sam Guthrie even exists anymore HAHA.

#32 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

At least this way she could end her complete story line by book ending with Cyclops end. I think of it as the simplicity of solving Scott completely and it just cannot be done without Jean. It would be a hollow and meaningless story line without her as the prompt and promise of Xavier's dream possibly being fulfilled in part by Cyclops.

This I totally disagree with. Cyclops was a great character for like 5 after Jean died (and for the 5 years before, when he was on the team without her), and he's been a great character in the ten years since she actually died. I think his story is far bigger than hers, despite hers being such a big part of his. I can see the kind of circular symbolism you're going for, but I really just can't see any way it wouldn't be overly contrived.

I have to disagree with you on this. Since the very FIRST X-Men issue, Jean has been the biggest part of Scott's story and an equally large part of the X-Men story. Like Chaereis mentioned, they are the Alpha and Omega of the X-Men. Their stories are linked.

And speaking of being a great character, I have to disagree about that as well. Cyclops' downfall began in the early 2000s during the Apocalypse possession story, then went steadily downhill until the miserable pile of turd that is AvX. These days, Cyclops sure has the "cool" factor and all that crap, and is also doing the right thing for mutantkind, but really, IMHO he's just a pale shadow of his former self, and in my opinion not half als cool as his X-Factor & early 90s days.

I still think it's a disservice to his character to imply that he's not enough of a character to not be the main character of his own story. That he's somehow incomplete without her.

and, this is just my opinion, but my two favorite periods for Cyclops were just before he formed X-factor (in the mid 80's) and the mid 00's Astonishing era, and, as much as I haven't liked a lot of the stories with him since then, I am really into the way he's being written in Uncanny X-men right now, so for me there's a lot more to like about his character than the fact that he was married to his high school sweetheart. Obviously that's a huge, tragic part of his story; but I still think there's a lot more to him than that. If there wasn't, I probably wouldn't be interested in him at all.

P.S. it's nice to see that at least someone remembers that Sam Guthrie even exists anymore HAHA.

I love me some Cannonball. He's just always been a character I related to.

#33 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Since you used the word I must start my retort with this. Comics as a whole is a business that caters to the shock and elation of readers to generate sales, thus it is nothing BUT contrived at every step of the process. I view comics the same I view the wrestling business a series of pre-generated and deliberated events to get us to buy more comics. Just like the 'rasslin business comics feeds upon its own niche and nostalgia. Phoenix and Jean were the exact same phenomena, internal politics and fan expectations drive the medium as a whole. I would be willing to bet a sizable sum that the vast spectrum of writers and artist at Marvel genuinely don't care about the characters even half of what you and I do. In fact I would say that Jean dying then and the way she changed into the Phoenix (AGAIN) was little than flexing of muscle by a writer who wanted bragging rights to further quicken his own ego.

Your assessment of Cyclops is very good and as always you're thought out and detailed. However Scott is not Scott, even in the real world are opposite sides of the coin. The most catastrophic events in their lives are based around the other. Example; the dark phoenix saga, Claremont wants to absolve Jean and keep her alive, editorial disagrees thus she kills "herself" and dies. They find a way to bring her back and then Davis and company want to kill Scott and editorial disagrees and keeps him alive and eventually he "rescued". Oddly enough Phoenix in her 101-137 duration does not really act like Jean as Scott hasn't been "himself" since 1999. Regardless Cyclops has always been an interesting character, but has not always been a well written character as writers have a tough time creating scenarios that lets his personality shine. Scott could have achieved the same result as what he is right now without the egregious stories forced upon in the past few years. You are right there is more to his character than Jean, I never questioned that but Jean is the quintessential support role to his character that make his personality truly work. The same can be said for Xavier, Logan, Storm, Maddie, Cable and Rachel. I believe Joss could have written an even better story with better "materials" to work with. How much time has bad writers wasted for their peers and us?

That being said I will digress for now. actually to further the Cannonball thing, my proudest moment was in X-Force 19 when he showed Xavier up. Great stuff back then Fabian...

#34 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Since you used the word I must start my retort with this. Comics as a whole is a business that caters to the shock and elation of readers to generate sales, thus it is nothing BUT contrived at every step of the process. I view comics the same I view the wrestling business a series of pre-generated and deliberated events to get us to buy more comics. Just like the 'rasslin business comics feeds upon its own niche and nostalgia. Phoenix and Jean were the exact same phenomena, internal politics and fan expectations drive the medium as a whole.

I don't exactly disagree with this point, but I think this would be a pretty sad justification for something that has (time and again) shown the potential to be quality literature. The business end of the medium certainly functions largely on nostalgia, novelty, and fan expectation, but I think we both know that the actual quality of the stories (and art) has far more to do with any long term staying power. Yes, there are contrivances that are particular to the genre (of superhero comics), but that doesn't mean that it should just be anything goes.

Retconing the Dark Phoenix Saga to have been about the Phoenix's sacrifice instead of Jean's was contrived enough, and maybe we can forgive that contrivance because it meant that the character hadn't actually died; but then she becomes the Phoenix, and then she does die, and then the Phoenix comes back as her, and then it comes back again, and by now, after all of that, it's just been way too much. Cyclops falls in love with Jean, then he falls in love with the Phoenix who he thinks is Jean, then he falls in love with Jean's clone who he thinks is someone else, he marries Madeline, then Jean comes back, then Madeline dies, then he marries Jean, then she becomes the Phoenix, then she dies; it just gets more contrived with every reiteration. Enough is, in this case, way more than enough.

Your assessment of Cyclops is very good and as always you're thought out and detailed. However Scott is not Scott, even in the real world are opposite sides of the coin.

I actually don't understand what you mean by this..

The most catastrophic events in their lives are based around the other. Example; the dark phoenix saga, Claremont wants to absolve Jean and keep her alive, editorial disagrees thus she kills "herself" and dies. They find a way to bring her back and then Davis and company want to kill Scott and editorial disagrees and keeps him alive and eventually he "rescued". Oddly enough Phoenix in her 101-137 duration does not really act like Jean as Scott hasn't been "himself" since 1999.

This part I just strait up disagree with. I think what you mean is that he hasn't been the version of the character as you prefer him, or that he's been written out of character for the past 13 years, but I don't think he has.

Regardless Cyclops has always been an interesting character, but has not always been a well written character as writers have a tough time creating scenarios that lets his personality shine. Scott could have achieved the same result as what he is right now without the egregious stories forced upon in the past few years. You are right there is more to his character than Jean, I never questioned that but Jean is the quintessential support role to his character that make his personality truly work.

Again, I just disagree with this. There are lots of great examples of characters with whom he has grown far more as a character. His relationship with Xavier in the 80's, before Jean came, back was great. As was his relationship with Madeline. I honestly believe his relationship with Emma had a far more interesting effect on his character than any period in which he was with Jean, and I think his relationship with Wolverine became far more interesting as well.

I believe Joss could have written an even better story with better "materials" to work with. How much time has bad writers wasted for their peers and us?

And I think that if Whedon wanted to bring back Jean, he could have easily done so instead of bringing back Colossus; but that's not the story he was telling, and I for one am glad he told the story that he did, especially without her. What were Kitty's words to Colossus before making her "ultimate" sacrifice?

"if happy comes along.. I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get. Because it's here, and then.. "

As far as I understand it, Whedon had complete control over which characters he could use for his story. Not only did he not bring Jean back, he had Cyclops actually fall in love with someone else (*gasp* -and she didn't even look like Jean!), which actually moved the characters (and therefore the story) foreword in a much more natural and organic way. People die, and the rest of us move on; it seems only comic book fans are incapable of doing that, but in it's own way, I can't help but feel that the retconing of the Dark Phoenix Saga is somehow partially responsible for those kinds of ridiculous expectations.

#35 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I guess we will (sadly i might add) agree to disagree on this. I feel like somehow if it is entertaining in some fashion you think it is acceptable to write a character that is out of "character". That seems me much akin to liking something heavily based on the fact that is short term "new" and not really long term "good". In my experience with life the vast majority of people I've known in real life do not experience that type of phenomena, so to that end why should literally characters? All it serves to do remove my suspense of disbelief to truly engage the story. Perhaps my words have failed me at times, but this is message I've time and again tried to state. To top that off now you seem to mistake my assessment of the character as a matter of personal preference only, not based on any real standard that I might have carefully constructed, not only for Cyclops or Jean, but every character that has ever been written and read by me. Honestly I am disappointingly insulted by this.

#36 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I guess we will (sadly i might add) agree to disagree on this. I feel like somehow if it is entertaining in some fashion you think it is acceptable to write a character that is out of "character". That seems me much akin to liking something heavily based on the fact that is short term "new" and not really long term "good". In my experience with life the vast majority of people I've known in real life do not experience that type of phenomena, so to that end why should literally characters? All it serves to do remove my suspense of disbelief to truly engage the story.

what type of phenomena?

Perhaps my words have failed me at times, but this is message I've time and again tried to state. To top that off now you seem to mistake my assessment of the character as a matter of personal preference only, not based on any real standard that I might have carefully constructed, not only for Cyclops or Jean, but every character that has ever been written and read by me. Honestly I am disappointingly insulted by this.

Sorry, I do hope you don't think I'd intentionally insult you. As I've explained, I have my own reasons for both not wanting to see Jean ever return again and appreciating Cyclops more as his own, singular character; with her as part of his past, that he's moved on from. But I understand that everyone has their own ideas about such things, as I know I do.

#37 Edited by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Its fine. As you stated "Let's move on".

The phenomena I mention is the almost complete personality change phenomena. Cyclops (now) is unrecognizable from who he was. I'm talking near complete personality amputation. Let me give you an example. Let's take Speedball. Robbie was, is and likely shall never be one of my favorite characters by any stretch of the imagination. However it is a POX that a writer in Civil War turned him to Penance. Let me state in the interim that I find penance a fascinating character (although I do not endorse masochism on that level), however Penance should never have been speedball and vice versa. It would have been better to do a suicide mission to burn himself out or just paint the walls with his brain. Either way Ditko would be pissed. NOW should Penance been introduced during civil war as a new and separate character. Wow.

The same goes for Scott, there is NO characterization that would cause him to be the "person" he today based on the template of who he "was". It is just not realistic nor possible. However let's just leave that there for now and explore a tangent. Let's say there are two options, both of which I have 80's Jim Shooter level of control.

1 Scott's story line completes. the character perma-dies. To this I want Jean to come back into the story and have her Perma-die WITH Scott and completely collapse the entire story line, no loose ends at all. I want super satisfying death and resolution.

2. Scott continues on. In this case he eventually finds romance with Betsy, as personally I thought they had amazing chemistry. Oh and she's ACTUALLY British instead pretending to be one and yes that was a shot a really excellent villain who poorly pretended to be a heroine. He retires from the field as he gives the field command to Mirage (Gold Team) and Cannonball (Blue Team). He is solely acting as an Xavier like support role. Maybe, JUST maybe he actually has a stable enough marriage to Bets they sire children and they don't become time displaced post-apocalyptic soldiers or experiments or slaves. Just to shake things up a bit. I would like to see Betsy lose some of the hardened Ninja attitude to find (some of) her original softness like in early 200's of uncanny. I want Scott to remember who he was, what he stood for, see what his friends and family REALLY need, stop fighting brush fires and deal the problem the way it truly exists, I want him to see that he was wrong.

In addendum. The song that most reminds me of Scott (now) is the song "High Road" by Three Days Grace. Hell some times after reading an issue I can visualize him singing it Jean's grave.

#38 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5005 posts) - - Show Bio

2. Scott continues on. In this case he eventually finds romance with Betsy, as personally I thought they had amazing chemistry. Oh and she's ACTUALLY British instead pretending to be one and yes that was a shot a really excellent villain who poorly pretended to be a heroine. He retires from the field as he gives the field command to Mirage (Gold Team) and Cannonball (Blue Team). He is solely acting as an Xavier like support role. Maybe, JUST maybe he actually has a stable enough marriage to Bets they sire children and they don't become time displaced post-apocalyptic soldiers or experiments or slaves. Just to shake things up a bit. I would like to see Betsy lose some of the hardened Ninja attitude to find (some of) her original softness like in early 200's of uncanny. I want Scott to remember who he was, what he stood for, see what his friends and family REALLY need, stop fighting brush fires and deal the problem the way it truly exists, I want him to see that he was wrong.

Alright you know I don't share your view of Emma (or Cyclops or Jean, apparently), but I don't see this as being a totally disagreeable way to go. The romance with Psylocke seems a bit cold by now, but I could still see it, somehow (it would at least be more organic than bringing Jean back again).

I do think it makes sense for him to retire from the field, especially if it's to actually hand the reigns over to the next generation. I almost think, speaking in reference to your Xavier-like role, that it would be most satisfying to see him retire from active duty to help run the school with Beast and Iceman and that crew, and let the characters who grew up in the 80's (Kitty, Rachel, the New Mutants, etc) take control of the active X-men teams. To me, that would feel organic, and still have the feeling of coming full circle which you seem to be advocating.

yeah, this idea I like.

#39 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: The only downfall is credibility. Over the past few years (especially with Sam) they have utterly been s*** upon. I truly detest how they ignore Dani and paint Sam to be all but inbred. These two were meant to be the next generation of mutant field leaders. Office politics and personal bias has done so much damage here. I would add that to take over the slot there would be a 5 year time leap that will never be discussed.

Back to the Betsy thing I was really just referring to base chemistry, with no continuity in mind for it as I was playing Jim Shooter for a moment. However yes it has been left out there for a long time.

#40 Posted by Icon (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd read this.

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