http://www.vox.com/2014/8/11/5974743/marvels-x-men-conspiracy-theory-guardians-future

While I don't believe Marvel hates the X-men-- (And I believe there is a better push for X-titles as opposed to recent years in the past) it does seem that X-men still aren't getting their due as Legends of the Marvel Universe.

"As one person well put "It's feeling like Marvel is sort of just going through the motions with the X-Men, and is using them as a legacy cash-cow while simultaneously shoving Inhumans our throats,"

As grateful as I am for Marvel NOW!'s XX-men, Uncanny X-men, and Storm books-- Where are our X-men video games like X-men Legends?? (DON'T ANYONE DARE SAY X-MEN DESTINY-- THAT GOD AWFUL PIECE OF TRASH!!) Where are our X-men merchandise?? Where are our X-men led main events-- THAT DON'T HAVE AVENGERS AS BIGGER CHARACTERS IN THE STORY.

I would gladly spend more of my money on all things X-men if Marvel gave more of the push like they are giving to the Inhumans, Avengers, GotG, etc to X-men. (I am not exactly talking about X-men issues. I am actually satisfied with the way things are now... for once. Everything post AvX is good.) But blowing an awful amount of money on the Inhumans, in an attempt to make them the New X-men is just sad, distasteful, and disrespectful.

And don't get me started on how the Fantastic Four's treatment. Luckily, I'm not a fan so of the F4. :)
Everything always goes back to the movie rights.

Mi opinion is that Marvel just dont know what to do with the XM anymore. Sad sad very sad. This I got it from my EX who told me about it. I don't think they are as bad as some people think. I still like them muchisimo. I think they are great to me.

Aren't the X-Men supposed to be a focal point of the Axis event coming up?

How much of a push are the Inhumans getting, really? I thought they just had one team series, one solo series, and a short after-event from Infinity.

Not to mention the Inhuman had 2 issues and then was delayed for a month with issue 3 coming out today.

The inferiority complex of X-fandom will end the second mutants (and X-comics in general) could outgrow their inferiority complex in universe.

A minor aphorism from Adam.

Yea i disagree. The fact is that Avengers has gained the most media attention recently and the big media marketing push with Guardians is because they want another big studio hit.

It's good business to back the other franchises but that doesn't mean that X-Men are being short changed. There just capitalizing on what is working....not everything is a X-Men conspiracy.

However EVERYTHING is a conspiracy to make the Fantastic Four irrelevant. Even the Conspiracy to make the X-Men irrelevant is just conspiracy so that everyone will be so busy talking about how irrelevant the X-Men are that they'll forget that the FF are the most irrelevant of them all. FACT.

@koays: However EVERYTHING is a conspiracy to make the Fantastic Four irrelevant. Even the Conspiracy to make the X-Men irrelevant is just conspiracy so that everyone will be so busy talking about how irrelevant the X-Men are that they'll forget that the FF are the most irrelevant of them all. FACT.

This is so true.

Why does everything kind of just fall into a conspiracy theory? Marvel's main X-Men rights are on the comics. That makes Marvel money from the X-Men standpoint. Cartoons, movies, and games right now are hot under the Marvel title, but if X-Men were to crank out games and movies like Avengers does, Marvel doesn't get those rights or not a large enough portion as Fox would. Yeah, a lot of things do come around to the movie rights. That is the hot commodity right now and guess what? It works. Brevoort was asked this recently and replied:

You’re talking about issues involving licensing and animation, and those are questions you’d need to ask to our people that oversee those areas.

I will say two things, though, both of which are pretty self-evident, I think.

1) There are only so many hours in the day, and so many initiatives you can have going at once,. So you need to pick and choose where you want to spend your time and your efforts.

2) If you had two things, and on one you earned 100% of the revenues from the efforts that you put into making it, and the other you earned a much smaller percentage for the same amount of time and effort, you’d be more likely to concentrate more heavily on the first, wouldn’t you?

People don't understand it is a business. It is about the money. But that does that inherently sacrifice or "short-change" the X-Men? Not really. From the movie stand-point, Fox has brought out some good X-Men films over the years. X1-X2, good films. Last Stand, not so much. Origins was also a flop. But First Class was a good adrenaline shot to the franchise. The Wolverine I thought was pretty good too. It was definitely better than Origins. And DOFP was fantastic. I mean it's not like all the Marvel movies have been incredible, but they generated revenue. IM3 was awful and Thor 2 was lackluster. X-Men has had some good cartoons over the years, too. WatXM was ok and ended abruptly, but X-Men also had an anime, which sucked, but still got a cartoon. IM and Blade were also animes in recent years. And X-Men have been included in video games the last couple of years. UMvC and UA2 are the big two that come to mind and the X-Men did have a video game, albeit it being horrible. The first 2 games weren't bad at all. I can see why some were frustrated at certain points about the games, but they were solid games.And I almost forgot Lego Marvel, which itself was an awesome video game, and it had a decent amount of X-men related characters. The Avengers have had a couple games due to the movie success, but I don't really see people mentioning them in any fashion. Why is that? They must not be good. The Avengers and X-Men sides have gives and takes. Neither are perfect. Marvel is just going to push what makes them money or try too. They are gambling with the Inhumans because those are the closest thing they have full rights on that are close to the X-Men. GotG was a huge gamble and the movie was fantastic, but I haven't heard about a GotG video game or an Inhumans video game. So are they being short changed then? No. But so far what Marvel has been doing has been working.

And just from the comics standpoint, people feel like the X-Men are being held back, but why is Marvel putting their highest grossing writer on their main books? Bendis' story may not be for everyone, but he sells. "But he didn't have high sales in July", So? He had some high grossing sales in June. And he has two of the best artists Marvel has to offer, at least Immonen on ANXM, but Bachalo is good. His style isn't for everyone, but Irving was good on art. Anka has been good on art. It's not like Marvel has just been "meh" and thrown the worst writer and artists on them. Bendis' run maybe underwhelming, but he is selling. You know what else Bendis is writing? Guardians of the Galaxy, and that is something Marvel is wanting to push, so they are trusting him with a big franchise and one they are wanting to push. And X-Men are supposed tobe a big part in AXIS and then the X-Men will also be the center for Marvel's summer event next year. Opinion of the writer aside, Marvel is pushing them. How many other X-books are there? Storm just got an ongoing. Tyclops has an ongoing. Wolverine's had 3 since Marvel NOW in Savage and 2 volumes of Cornell's terrible run. All New X-Force I heard has gotten better, but the first 5 issues weren't for me so I haven't picked it back up. All New X-Factor has been pushing characters that aren't centered and the book has been my favorite X-title in awhile. And you also have Amazing X-Men, Ultimates, XX-Men, WatXM, Nightcrawler, Magneto, and a solid amount of other books with them, including an Avengers main title in UA, which is supposed to be a joint book.

I don't want to be that guy, but to be honest, I feel like majority of X-Men fans as a whole are fickle. I'm not trying to insult fans or the fanbase but it seems if you aren't Claremont, Morrison, or Whedon, people just seem to complain. I understand not every run is perfect nor will everyone like the current runs and directions. But there are people that do. There are people buying these books on a monthly basis and Marvel hasn't cancelled them yet. But at the same time, Marvel IS going to do what makes them the most money, and that is the Avengers right now. It does go back to the movies and that is why they will make the most toys, games, and cartoons, but comic-wise, they aren't doing any better than the X-Men and with all this bullsh*t happening soon with Fem-Thor and Captain Falcon and d-bag Iron Man again, that can hurt them. But Marvel is taking the risk. It's a back and forth thing comic-wise with X-Men and the Avengers being their two biggest comic commodities. As much as I hate having a lack of X-Men games and shows, it makes sense what Marvel is doing with Avengers.

exactly. Trying to make their other characters as popular as the X-men have been for the last 40 years is hardly a slight against the X-men. There's just no reason Marvel wouldn't want their best-selling characters to continue to succeed.

To be fair, I'm surprised the FF even still have their own book, considering they really haven't been especially relevant since the end of the 60's. They may have been Marvel's "first family" and the first new heroes of the marvel age, but that doesn't mean that their relevancy has or needs to have been a constant ever since.

I'm not saying there hasn't been any good FF stories since Kirby left, obviously there have been lots; but how relevant can we expect a superhero comic that's mainly featured the same 4 characters (who aren't even superheroes most of the time) to be after all this time? Even as their premier breakout series,the fact that it hasn't really changed in all this time already puts it out of step with the rest of the MU, where the members of the X-men, New Mutants and Power Pack have all grown up while Franklin is still the same age he's been since the 80's.

And I'm not saying FF has to change, because what they are is already kind of perfect; but if they stay the same while the world around them changes, it only makes sense that they would be less relevant to that world.

Honestly i would've thought that the FF would've gone the way of Dr. Strange. Being a frequently featured character and staple of the MU without really being the focus of any stories. I mean it's the only team i can think of that's core members are almost always the same. And we've already read the story of Spiderman/She-hulk standing in for a member dozen's of times.

Really the problem seems to be how dated they are. There still trying to tell super-hero stories with the exact same team dynamic as they've had for 50 years. Really if i were Marvel i'd treat them less like Superheroes and just make the "family" aspect the focus of the books. Because having them face life threatening situations and come up with a genius solution at the end of the arc is kind of what you expect.

Really (and this is odd coming from an X-Men fan with the opposite problem) if they don't start changing the status quo and altering the dynamics of the team, there is no way the group will return to relevance because even people with passing knowledge of the team don't feel as though they've missed something.

@koays: yeah, pretty much.

I disagree with both of y'all

True, the most common complaint about the Fantastic Four is their roster which never really alters, but I mean there is no difference then if you read Batman...I mean its the same guy, with the same supporting cast, fighting the same villains. The Fantastic Fours utter weirdness is what makes it so fun, the fact that they are this family of celebrity super heroes that fight villains while having problems an actual family might have, like not being able to find a babysitter when Franklin is born and things like that. It's literally a different premise from every other comic in existence.

It also should be noted that their supporting characters are always pretty enjoyable--HERBIE, the Inhumans that have joined the team, Frankie Raye etc. It always offers a different feel to the team and their adventures usually accommodate whichever characters they are surrounded by.

Its also worth noting that a lot of Marvels Universe first showed up in the pages of the Fantastic Four. Galactus (who leads into a lot of other cosmic Marvel), The Kree (who launches characters like Captain Marvel and Ms. Marvel), The Skrulls, The Inhumans, Black Panther. Overall, the Fantastic Four is probably the most important book to the entire universe, not only were they the first super powered heroes of the "modern day" in Marvels continuity but their impact is way more felt then Spider-Man and his whole mythos or the X-Men, who as you know, mostly deal with their own problems.

Although, I do agree poor Franklin hasn't aged much, which is actually addressed and joke about several times. Poor kid.

1. While I do agree that it's a different concept than virtually every other comic, I think that's actually part of the problem. Actual families grow and change, while the FF have remained virtually unchanged since at least the 80's. You mention Batman as an example, but Batman as a concept isn't bound by the same conceptual constraints that the FF is; you can kind of put Batman in virtually any type of genre story, and even the Batman family grows, as Robins and Batgirls grow up and pass their mantles down.

2. And when they do that, they do become more interesting. But it always comes back to the original 4, who, as perfect as they are for what that group dynamic is, only have a fairly specific and well defined dynamic between them. What you can do with that dynamic may actually be limitless, but the fact that they've been playing off that same dynamic every month for the better part of the last 50 years, while every other character, even iconic standards like Superman or Batman, but especially any other team books. have changed, it's bound to make the dynamic feel stale. I really thought when they killed Johnny it would be the beginning of seeing the team move forward, and for a minute it almost seemed to, but now it doesn't even seem like Johnny was ever gone.

3. I do agree that Fantastic 4 is the most relevant book to the history of the marvel universe, I just don't think it's been relevant to it's present state for decades. Marvel's second family, Magneto and his kids, have continued to be relevant ever since the 60's in some capacity, and they did it without having their own book. If you look at the ways the FF have been relevant in the last decade, it's largely in the ways that they, as largely unchanging archetypes, have interacted with the ever-changing world around them, but that's something they can still do whether they're in their own series or not.

Well, you're right, and you're wrong. First off, I really don't know much about the Fantastic Four continuity from the 90s till the present, I do understand that Hickman wrote some good stuff several years ago...so, as for that I really cannot comment. While are you correct about the sidekicks like Robin and Batgirl getting older, its odd that while that happens characters like Batman and Green Arrow apparently don't age much, while you could argue characters like Superman and Wonder Woman don't age like normal humans it still doesn't change that the villains and supporting cast don't age much, so it shouldn't really shock anyone that the FF doesn't either.

The Fantastic Four are adaptable to any genre. It doesn't even take me two seconds to remember during the John Byrne run there was a story where Johnny Storm received a letter from an old mate from high school that was on death row and wanted him to solve the murder he was accused of, leading to a complete noir, detective story that led Johnny into conflict with the Maggia and Hammerhead-- then, the next story arc had them battling Ego the living Planet. Just because they are primarily written as adventurers doesn't mean they can't have stories that dabble in all kinds of storytelling and that fact does make them much more flexible than someone like Batman. Its completely dependent on the writer and his imagination.

I always have to reiterate it whenever someone says the Fantastic Four is boring or something like that, but, there is literally no difference from the F4 and a team like the Justice League or the Avengers. The X-Men have personal character drama in the face of battling inter dimensional demons, the Fantastic Four has personal character drama in the face of fighting inter dimensional demons...it's American super hero comics.....it's all the same BS. There is no difference or diminishing of relevance.

The dynamic has changed. Several times. Just because the team doesn't constantly change members and HQs does NOT, by any means, mean that it is stagnant. The FF are adventurers. They have adventures that span several issues as a story arc and will sometimes team up with Thor and Iron Man and have the focus be on their interaction with them. Or maybe they are joined by Wyatt Wingfoot whose relationship with She Hulk becomes a central focus, or Johnny and Frankie Rayes relationship gets focus while Agatha Harkness babysits Franklin and is accosted by magical demons or something, then there is issues where Dr Doom shows up and he is written to be just as interesting as the main heroes of the book as opposed to just the villain of the week. What I am saying is they still have the capacity for exciting stories and they don't constantly have to introduce new members while their guest stars and supporting cast, villains and temporary members are written to be just as intriguing. These factors are what make the Fantastic Four such a unique series.

At any rate, the Future Foundation exists now. So, I guess the F4 did change and alter it's dynamic

They may not be the central focus of discovering every new concept that shows up in the current Marvel U. They are still pretty integral though. Now that the Avengers movie made a gazillion dollars they are the focus of everything now but, before that Reed Richards was a part of the Illuminati. The Thing was a a big part of Fear Itself. Doctor Doom is always a primary threat. They are still a very centric part of the Marvel U.

Someone made this very argument on another thread like two weeks ago...something like "The Fantastic Four are just outdated, there is no reason for them to have an ongoing anymore" which is stupid because that is implying that just because the Marvel Universe doesn't revolve around them....that means they shouldn't be considered as a necessity. Which by that logic no characters other than Avengers, who Marvel is currently making bank off of because there films should not be prominent either. The bottom line is that they are just as important as the X-Men are. They just aren't popular due to Marvel giving the book to good writers and not having the rights to make movies based on the characters. The end.

I disagree on two points here.

The first that they are more flexible then Batman. The way i see it Batman Eternal is the perfect example of how versatile the Batman franchise is even on a surface level. With the Batfamily dealing with Scifi twist like nanite diseases, noir like with the criminal gang war, standard superhero fair with mind control and a mystical element. The only one people don't automatically associate with Batman is the mystical things.

The FF may have had a different kind of adventure from standard fair, but it doesn't change the fact that their primary role is as adventures and they are more often then not limited to those stories. The writer could move beyond that into other story types, but it's the fact that they don't that limits the characters. Compare to the X-Men who, while primarily focusing on the "hated and feared" types of storylines, have an equal presence within outer space where their premise is very much out of place. It gives the franchise something else it can rely on for fresh stories when the primary element wears thin, because as much as they are a social allegory they also have a huge connection to outer space to rely on.


The second is I think if they really were the "First Family" of the MU then they'd be more connected to the events going on. Instead more often then not they're neutral in the events or are barely featured and almost isolated. Which is something i expect from X-Factor or other satellite books, not the founding heroes of the MU. It really is down to the fact that Marvel isn't doing enough to make the title "must read", and the idea that they don't wanna do so because they don't own the movie rights is laughable considering they see a portion of the profit anyway as part of their owning the creative/intellectual rights to the property. They don't just want the FF to fail, they just aren't doing enough to make it succeed.

And it really wouldn't take much except spinning an event out of the titles, like Dr. Doom or Galactus, and using it as something that makes waves throughout the company. Instead of having a feature in every crossover where The Thing gets beat up and the page cuts to Reed Richards eating an ice cream cone and saying he disagrees with the Avengers.

Using Batman as an example wasn't a penultimate example. It was just what I tossed out. The point was that the Fan Four get flack for being perennial and doing the same kinds of things for decades while a character like Batman is more or less guilty of the same thing.

I don't want to sound rude, but, have you ever read the Fantastic Four?? Runs like John Byrne, Walt Simonson, Mark Waid?? They all do vastly different things with the characters and they have adventures that span every genre. They literally do the same things the X-Men do....except the dialogue and overall presentation was better in X-Men because Claremont was arguably a better writer.

You say that the X-Men have their bigotry story lines and can also rely on being integral in space adventures....if you substitute bigotry story lines with story lines where the Fantatsic Four have to deal with being famous and people knowing where they live or who they are publicly leads to trouble or hated because they are meta humans....because there actually has been storylines like that......then it is the same thing including them being integral in saving the galaxy, or Attilan, or Atlantis, or the andromeda galaxy etc.

The fact that the films Marvel produce play into the paradigm of their comic sales is undeniable.....it's basic business. They do make a profit off of comic sales but they would also like to promote their own characters with films they produce that they would make potential millions off of.. At any rate the Fantastic Four can't be marketed at the same level something like the Avengers right now can be so it's never going to be assigned the top writers. Do you not think that Dr Strange will get a new comic series and toy line and possible animated show when his film comes out??

Also, just because the F4 are usually neutral in current story lines doesn't mean anything. Characters like Spider-Man and Hulk aren't always essential, it doesn't diminish their importance. If we are going by the logic you presented, then the only characters that would be relevant would be Avengers and X-Men.

Reed eating ice cream and disagreeing with Avengers is all he needs to do really. The Avengers are usually wrong anyways :)

1. My main point with the Batman example was just that he has a wider niche of stories then the Fantastic Four do. So he can alternate 3 of his most repeated storyline types and have more variety then the Fantastic Four with it's two.

2. My point with the X-Men again was similar to the one with Batman. Arguing their story types and writers isn't the point, but the frequency and amount of story elements mixed into them is. You can do a hundred stories about Johnny Storm's girlfriends but eventually people won't be interested in them. Same with exploring some unknown dimension/city/universe/planet...the situations may be different but the elements are the same, and can at times be alienating if you just want a personal story. More well rounded stories then just alternating between two story types are necessary because having two overall story types with a different wrench thrown in every other rotation isn't doing much to change the perception of stagnation.

3. I don't disagree with the idea that FF would get more publicity or be better promoted with a movie or something big to back it. But shouldnt the goal be to improve the comics to the point that someone wants to make a movie out of them? To build interest in the characters not just to build profit but to increase customer demand for more FF materials? To me they just aren't doing enough to increase the want for the characters.

4. Spiderman and Hulk are always present in crossover storylines even if they don't tie-in with their own books...with a guaranteed moment for both. The point is if FF as a team is getting treated as though they are on the same level as Hulk or Spider-man in terms of relevancy when they are not. Spider-man may not NEED a crossover with the latest event to maintain causual interest but the Fantastic Four do.

5. I agree, if Reed Richards just super stretched his head into the room during a big Avengers team meeting and shouted "WRONG!!" before taking a lick of Ice cream....my entire argument would be invalid. But now, they just aren't as important to the grand scheme of the MU when they should be, moreso then Dr. Strange.

I've heard four possible reasons for this (listed in order of how plausible I find them):

1. The movie rights issue.

2. Joe Quesada intentionally took the focus of the Marvel Universe away from the X-Men because of all the crappy stories of the 90s.

3. Quesada took the focus away from the X-Men to get back at Grant Morrison for leaving Marvel.

4. Quesada took the focus away from the X-Men because he doesn't like them.