So most telekenetics can do force blasts or Pyrokinesis.

Is it possible for telekenetics to do cryokinesis or generate ice? Jean once controlled the air molecules around her to make the surrounding colder. storm can control the temperature and set things on fire too but can she generate ice or do cryokinesis?

Effective telekinetic can warp reality, transmute, time travel and change his own molecular structures.

Telekinesis is like the ultimate power.

^ agreed

@adamtrmm: Undoubtedly it is so, in due of fact the writers have an idea extremely extensive of the concept of telekinesis; too much extensive from my point of view.

I prefer the characters with well definite powers and less powerful, but in the Marvel Universe a character with the powers of telepathic and telekinetic is de facto omnipotent.

are there characters aside from the grey genome who are tp and tk powered?

@darthphoenix: Yes, the child of Xaxier is a telephat, a telekinetic and a pyrokinet and also Emma is a latent telekinetic.

The interest of Mr. Sinister about Cyclops genome, makes me think that in the genome of the Summers there is something able to exalt the x-gene potential in their progeny, while the Grey genome have the most potential. In fact if I remember well, the children of Scott and Jean (or her clone Madelyne) are the most powerful psionics of the world, but no one has inherited the father's power.

What is the official explanation about the interest of Mr. Sinister about Scott and Jean?

I love powerhouses, just imagining the fights between them is mind-blowing for the boy deep inside my mind :)

Do we really need another child that shoots "lasers" out of the eyes like ruby summers, lol.

Definitely. Too much Scott ain't enough Scott. But in theory, mutants don't inherit the powers from their parents they just inherit the X-gene. Perhaps that's why Mr. Sinister has an interest in that they consistently reproduce psychics.

isn't the inheritance of psychic powers by the children of jean PHOENIX related? I think it was said sometime before the psychic powers of her children was their birthright.

lol

I am agreed with you about the fact it needs a certain limit but TK and TP are umbrella powers: they can access 90-95% of the other existing powers!

Mr Sinister said they have the better X-genes but Franklin Richards is commonly supposed to be the strongest mutant even if I doubt about that(he is too overrated/used for me). If Jean and Scott's children have the better X-genes how Franklin is supposed to be stronger than them?

For those who didn't know it there's new mutants these last years who have TP and TK like Kid Omega, Psylocke(since 2000's) and Matthew Malloy aside Exodus, Legion and Cassandra Nova.

To darthphoenix: I have a link for you which can explain all you can't understand about Telekinesis: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis

Depends on the ability to use it. If they are skilled enough to manipulate the actual molecule they could speed it up or slow it down enough to change the temperature but it would need to be a highly skilled user. Like Vance Astro, he used to only be psychokinetic and he could only blast force but some writer's treated it like telekinetics and had him picking up and moving objects. This was later "evolved" to telekinetics so he could Mary Sue things for a hot minute.Just like a telekinetic should not be able to just fly, they would need to find an anchor to push and pull from (even if just explained as the air molecules)though it all falls on the writer's understanding of the ability and to be able to explain their percieved use.

@fridric:

Technically Scott and Jean have no children. Cable is from a clone, Nate Grey was a tube-baby, and Rachel (while Omega), is from an alternate Scott and Jean so there could have been something that tainted their dna in that instance. If they were to have a child together who was birthed by Jean, and had the mutant gene, I bet Franklin would fall to #2.

There's an argument with rachel being scott and jean's daughter from another timeline. in that timeline it was the phoenix force posing as jean who gave birth to Rachel. the concept of jean and the phoenix force being as one entity was not yet conceived during days of the future past.

being the most powerful mutant didn't save franklin from the sentinels. grrr. But rachel and frankin's son is said to be the most powerful mutant. I think hyperstorm is more powerful than malloy

Even if they are from alternate realities or a clone change nothing, it's the same DNA. The retcon separated Jean and the Phoenix; so originally she is stronger than Franklin before it. Franklin is a weird character the writers used him for easy story to save the day all the time and in my own opinion certain person from Marvel don't want to have a woman as their strongest heroes. They are so machist theses last years: no superheroin have a book, all the strong women don't lead a team anymore(example: Storm), the heroin looks like porn actress(Psylocke/Emma Frost), all of the women are in the shadows of male characters or a female version of a heroes(X-23) and don't exist anymore by themselves.

Rachel has all the potential to be the most powerful mutant but they don't do it. She is not enough badass like she was before, now there's new male Omega mutants like Kid Omega or Richard Malloy. In fact, the new staff of Marvel don't love women if they are stronger than men! I don't understand why people say Rachel is weaker than X-Man or Cable(with full his potential) because she has Jean and Scott's DNA too. It makes me laugh when they say Jean is stronger than Rachel too because Rachel did so many more than her mother in the comics(with or without the Phoenix Force) and has never been a Jean-like in anyway!

For me, Franklin can't be number 2 because they are so many before him: Rachel/X-Man/Cable and Jean Grey(who is supposed to have the better X-genes from her generation) so Franklin can't be number 1. It's the writters and Marvel who didn't develop Jean and her children with their full and real potential.

If we din't count Rachel/X-Man/Cable, Franklin is n°2 after Jean not the reverse because Jean have better X-genes than him, it's logical.

It's funny how a high-end matter manipulator (Molecule Man) was able to challenge the whole universe and its masters. Some sh!tty writing lol

I always thought that rachel is way stronger than jean simply because she is THE ONLY CHILD of the PHOENIX FORCE itself.

Rachel only seems stronger than Jean on paper because Rachel, much like Nate (when powered) does not show much restraint and the two of them are more prone to muscle their way through a problem, unlike Jean who was stated many times on panel to be holding back much of her power and relied more on mastering it then actually using it. This is the same restraint she taught to Cable even to the point that when she decided to explore her powers and stop holding back she showed him that she could use her own powers to enhance his to transform his TO infected arm to flesh, but he declined the offer. Jean and Cable were written with things that limited their powers. Her limit was taught to her by Xavier as he probably feared her, as we have seen what he does to mutants that are more powerful than him, and Cable was given a virus that we find out the Phoenix can just wish away even though he was raised in a future where his sister had the Phoenix and yet felt a need to use the last of her power to pull people from the past to train him instead of using it to heal him and have him trained by the cadre of telekinetic telepaths that already existed in that future.

I believe that it was mentioned that the Jean from Rachels timeline actually merged with the Phoenix and there was no instance of the Phoenix duplicating her, and Dark Phoenix did not happen, there was no duel with the Shi'ar, and no suicide on the moon, meaning no Maddie which lead to Scott and Jean getting married. We have to assume at some unknown time the Phoenix left that Jean because there is no way she would have been killed in an explosion if she had the power of a being that can survive in the hearts of stars. So Rachel should not be anything but the child of the mutant Jean Grey and Scott Summers of her timeline, she inherited her mothers powers and the potential to connect with the Phoenix because of the Grey genome not because the Phoenix force gave birth to her.

Very good explanations. Rachel has mental blocks on her powers so she didn't show us all of her potential. For X-Man, it's the real potential they have all of them when they are not restricted I think.

I reread EXCALIBUR 53 the PHOENIX Force spoke with the x-men and told Rachel's story,

Jean was never phoenix in Rachel's timeline.

i'll post scans of everything you need to know about the phoenix

#

That directly contradicts Uncanny Xmen 199 which was released almost 10 years before and Rachel does mention that Jean was Phoenix in her reality but did not give into temptation becoming Dark Phoenix.

@lordofallhumans: I really like what Davis tried to do by forever bonding Ray and the Phoenix as one. In #63 I believe it removes its own consciousness and gives her its powers fully as she had been reborn from it. This was an effort to not have it be yanked from her when the need arose and to be her actual "being" and powerset from that point forward.The were irrevocably one from that point forward...irrevocably for a hot minute obviously.

The Phoenix never gave Rachel it's full power. What she had access to was 1/2 of the Phoenix that duplicated Jean. The only reason it's "consciousness" was not taking over her back then was because the "consciousness" it had was a piece it took from Jean and that piece was taken by Maddie to give her life. Rachel had the potential to be as powerful as the first Phoenix but she was inexperienced in the use of power and denied her own glory, not until the encounter with the Beyonder did she get a taste of the power of the first Phoenix and it drove her insane enough to try to destroy the universe and all others just to get rid of him by destroying the M'Kraan crystal IIRC.

The Phoenix never gave Rachel it's full power. What she had access to was 1/2 of the Phoenix that duplicated Jean. The only reason it's "consciousness" was not taking over her back then was because the "consciousness" it had was a piece it took from Jean and that piece was taken by Maddie to give her life. Rachel had the potential to be as powerful as the first Phoenix but she was inexperienced in the use of power and denied her own glory, not until the encounter with the Beyonder did she get a taste of the power of the first Phoenix and it drove her insane enough to try to destroy the universe and all others just to get rid of him by destroying the M'Kraan crystal IIRC.

The Phoenix was looking for jean but found rachel. It stayed dormant in her until she claimed the it as her birth rite. She became a host with the "Phoenix conciousness" in her till she almost died in Excalibur 50. Beyonder said she could be as Powerful as the first phoenix host/dark phoenix if she wanted to. Beyonder didn't know that the 1st phoenix host he was referring to was the phoenix force itself. Rachel didn't go insane when beyonder gave her powers, it was rachel's hot temper, youth, lack of experience and idealism that made her get the x-men's life forces and take on beyonder by herself.

What happened in Excalibur 52

after Rachel was completely healed, The Phoenix force left Rachel with its power or access to its power. She was not a host anymore because the phoenix conciousness which is very hard to control has left her already. Among all the hosts, Rachel is the only one to be given this power.

Gallery

@darthphoenix said:

The Phoenix never gave Rachel it's full power. What she had access to was 1/2 of the Phoenix that duplicated Jean. The only reason it's "consciousness" was not taking over her back then was because the "consciousness" it had was a piece it took from Jean and that piece was taken by Maddie to give her life. Rachel had the potential to be as powerful as the first Phoenix but she was inexperienced in the use of power and denied her own glory, not until the encounter with the Beyonder did she get a taste of the power of the first Phoenix and it drove her insane enough to try to destroy the universe and all others just to get rid of him by destroying the M'Kraan crystal IIRC.

The Phoenix was looking for jean but found rachel. It stayed dormant in her until she claimed the it as her birth rite. She became a host with the "Phoenix conciousness" in her till she almost died in Excalibur 50. Beyonder said she could be as Powerful as the first phoenix host/dark phoenix if she wanted to. Beyonder didn't know that the 1st phoenix host he was referring to was the phoenix force itself. Rachel didn't go insane when beyonder gave her powers, it was rachel's hot temper, youth, lack of experience and idealism that made her get the x-men's life forces and take on beyonder by herself.

What happened in Excalibur 52

after Rachel was completely healed, The Phoenix force left Rachel with its power or access to its power. She was not a host anymore because the phoenix conciousness which is very hard to control has left her already. Among all the hosts, Rachel is the only one to be given this power.

Gallery

I know what happened in this issue, and I know that after the Askani timeline was erased she was tossed into the timestream and the Phoenix Force abandoned her there because around the same time Jean (the true chosen Phoenix) had decided to stop being afraid of the impact of calling herself Phoenix, wearing her old custom and not holding back her power would have on those around her. Lets not forget it was explained in that very issue that the only reason Rachel even got the Phoenix was because the force mistook her for Jean at first after Jean rejected it, and continued for most of her career after encountering it to deny that it had anything to do with her. The moment Jean embraced herself the Phoenix dropped Rachel.