Wolverine was a dick in All new X-Men 5 and in AVX event.
Cyclops has been turn into some sort of bad guy, even young Scott is getting grief. 
Do you think  the writers will continued to treat them badly.
With the X-ladies getting more focuse now, do you think Logan and Scott deserved the bad treatment.

@time: Wolverine has been a dick since the mid 80s what makes his new dickish behavior special?

Wolverine was cool in the early 1990's to. What are you talking about.

I like Wolverine and Cyclops, and don't really think of either of them as "bad guys", I just like Storm and Kitty, and most of those characters from X-men too. And they haven't done as much with them lately.

I don't see any of them as bad guys really. Wolverine is leading a school and is on like three different avengers teams so he is not considered bad. Cyclops might be a toss up but if he is a bad guy was Malcom X a bad guy? because I see Scott as a good person who is willing to do what he must for the sake of the Mutant race no matter how it makes him look.

I don't think they are being turned into bad guys at all.  I do however think that they are being turned into the next generation's versions of Magneto and Xavier.

@Matchstick said:

I don't think they are being turned into bad guys at all. I do however think that they are being turned into the next generation's versions of Magneto and Xavier.

@Matchstick said:

I don't think they are being turned into bad guys at all. I do however think that they are being turned into the next generation's versions of Magneto and Xavier.

yeah, kinda, but actually kinda cooler than that dynamic.

@Matchstick said:

I don't think they are being turned into bad guys at all. I do however think that they are being turned into the next generation's versions of Magneto and Xavier.

I wish not. I love Mags and all but I'd hate to see Cykes as a permanent dark-hero/quasi-villain type of a character. I really wish Bendis or any writer after him redeems the character. As for Wolverine, he's just too much of an ass to be the next Xavier. Xavier-wannabee, perhaps. But I prefer my lone-wolf Wolverine than the hypocrite should-be-in-every-team character he's become.

Once again, Time has made another stupid thread that is basically THE SAME AS THE LAST ONE!

@time said:

Wolverine was cool in the early 1990's to. What are you talking about.

He was still a jerk, though. He's also been depicted as the too cool for school jerk.

I don't think they're being treated badly. This is simply story arcs for them. Scott will eventually "redeem" himself if you want to call it that, and Wolverine will either stay pretending to be Prof X or he will go back to his old ways.

And yes, the X-ladies will get more of the spotlight in Uncanny X-Force and X-Men.

@Matchstick said:

I don't think they are being turned into bad guys at all. I do however think that they are being turned into the next generation's versions of Magneto and Xavier.

I wish not. I love Mags and all but I'd hate to see Cykes as a permanent dark-hero/quasi-villain type of a character. I really wish Bendis or any writer after him redeems the character. As for Wolverine, he's just too much of an ass to be the next Xavier. Xavier-wannabee, perhaps. But I prefer my lone-wolf Wolverine than the hypocrite should-be-in-every-team character he's become.

Once again, Time has made another stupid thread that is basically THE SAME AS THE LAST ONE!

Neither of them are villains in my book. However if I had to pick who's a "worse" guy than the other, I'd pick Wolverine. He's been slaughtering people for years. I mean, do we have an official number on how many people died during AvX? I'd bet it's less than Wolvies mowed down over the last century.

@Matchstick: I'm not saying that's not the case. I'm just wishing it is not. Sort of in denial of what is to come.

@Matchstick: I'm not saying that's not the case. I'm just wishing it is not. Sort of in denial of what is to come.

Wolverine has never been one for "responsibility" or being a role model, so trying to head the new school probably has him on edge. Also, with young Jean and Scott suddenly showing up outta the blue, it's gotta be a huge kick to the gut. And Wolverine has never handled that kinda thing too well.

So his dickish behavior is kinda in character.

@Onemoreposter said:

Neither of them are villains in my book. However if I had to pick who's a "worse" guy than the other, I'd pick Wolverine. He's been slaughtering people for years. I mean, do we have an official number on how many people died during AvX? I'd bet it's less than Wolvies mowed down over the last century.

this is a really good point. I would point out, though, that Wolverine has been on a slow path of redemption ever since he joined the X-men, while Cyclops has been going more and more in the other direction. Yeah, they are both flawed heroes (like almost all great Marvel characters), but for me it's a half empty/half full argument; it depends which direction you're going in.

Thanks for the comments people. I think I may of ask the question wrong. I mean, will Cyclops and Wolverine be written badly now and do they deserve it. Do you think the X-ladies will be written better than them.

@Matchstick said:

@spetsnaz_gru said:

@Matchstick said:

I don't think they are being turned into bad guys at all. I do however think that they are being turned into the next generation's versions of Magneto and Xavier.

I wish not. I love Mags and all but I'd hate to see Cykes as a permanent dark-hero/quasi-villain type of a character. I really wish Bendis or any writer after him redeems the character. As for Wolverine, he's just too much of an ass to be the next Xavier. Xavier-wannabee, perhaps. But I prefer my lone-wolf Wolverine than the hypocrite should-be-in-every-team character he's become.

No one is trying to say they are going to be carbon copies of Xavier and Magneto, but there is no denying that they are being set up as the new figure heads of mutants in Marvel Now.



@snyderman567 said:

Once again, Time has made another stupid thread that is basically THE SAME AS THE LAST ONE!

What are you like the thread police? Who cares what threads he makes, if you don't like them just ignore them.

I find those people so annoying. Got nothing better to do, than bitch.

@snyderman567 said:

Once again, Time has made another stupid thread that is basically THE SAME AS THE LAST ONE!

Go away, your not welcome here. If you don't like my threads go away.

@time said:

@snyderman567 said:

Once again, Time has made another stupid thread that is basically THE SAME AS THE LAST ONE!

What are you like the thread police? Who cares what threads he makes, if you don't like them just ignore them.

I find those people so annoying. Got nothing better to do, than bitch.

@snyderman567 said:

Once again, Time has made another stupid thread that is basically THE SAME AS THE LAST ONE!

Go away, your not welcome here. If you don't like my threads go away.

1. Are seriously complaining about me complaining when you do it ALL THE TIME!?
2. No, this a free thread where everyone can come in and chime in whenever they please. I would like your threads if they were varied and not the same exact ones.

Like your pointless threads. Jean Grey is a Jerk. Why don't you, cry me a river.

Wolverine and Cyclops are both respectively being written by Jason Aaron and Brian Bendis, whereas Storm, Psylocke and the Uncanny X-Women are being written by Brian Wood on-top of being illustrated by Olivier Coipel.

Need i say more ?

@time: Hey Time. Thought I would give my two cents worth.

Honestly Wolvie has been written badly on and off since '92, I don't really see this changing honestly as a lot of writers can't seem to be able to get into that brain and figure out what the hell would actually go on with him. Personally I liked him best with a stogie in his mouth using his claws to slice open a brew, shit talking bad ass. Like when he fought Horde, or was chopping the hell out of dead guys in 226-227. Byrne, Claremont, Miller all did well I think. His defining moments for me were Wolverine and Kitty Pryde mini, X-Men Annual 11 and the Wolverine Mini. I've liked him in a ton of stuff since but these are Logan to a tee.

Cyclops...is probably one my most favorite characters but I have not seen him written correctly since (or any of the O5, really) since X-Factor #64.

As far as the girls go...not sure time will tell if they are poorly treated. I want them to succeed though although I really wish artist could move Rogue away from her Uncanny 171/AoA costume.

@chasereis: these are some great points.

I personally don't think either of these characters have been written poorly. Maybe a bit inconsistently, but I think what really bugs people is that they've grown and changed with time. The mid 80's was a great time for the X-men, but I'm more interested in seeing how the characters have changed.

As far back as the Days of Future Past, we were shown how the Wolverine would eventually move away from his brutal ways, as he had in Rachel's future/past. I think this was always Claremont's long term goal for the character, that he ultimately be redeemed of his past crimes to become a more thoughtful and responsible hero (and, yeah, I think Uncanny Annual #11 is a great example of this).

And Cyclops having a wife and kid was meant to be his happy ending. Arguably, the moment he walked away from that was the moment he started down the path he's been on ever since, sacrificing his own happiness for a self imposed sense of being the necessary hero.

I'm glad to see the characters change over time, and to me, so far it has made sense.

@dangallant984: Well...the changing thing? I'm mixed on that. Tell you why. Changing a character is not a bad thing, nor is character growth. My issue is when a character is when so much happens to a character they become someone else entirely. That's not really character growth, that's alteration. A typical person will always be the same person they have always been since becoming self aware. Being raped, or nearly (but perhaps in the X-Men's case) ACTUALLY killed, might alter that personality to some degree but even then I think a person who came BACK to life would value his or her existence even more. Its just the human thing to do.

Honestly I thought after wolvie got his memories back I thought he would totally go all buddha on me act even more big brotherly. If anything it seems he acts just as feral as ever. That was a missed opportunity for actual growth there beyond being a beserker.

Cyclops, cyclops. This one I would likely argue. He is being forced into some kind of magneto / anakin skywalker thing that should have never taken place. And him and Xavier is more than a rebellion against step daddy. Hell I don't remember him grieving for his own father! All he seems to do is walk around scream "198! Flat-Scans Die! Must hump all orifices in existence!" This is NOT growth, hell I don't think it's a lateral movement. More like have a nervous breakdown or mid-life crisis. Turning the quintessential true hero of the X-Men from the beginning into racist and villain is just...inane and lazy.

After reading All New XMen 6 I'm even more sure that Wolverine is a Jerk

@TheAmazingImmortalMan: kinda like Magneto?

@chasereis said:

@dangallant984: Well...the changing thing? I'm mixed on that. Tell you why. Changing a character is not a bad thing, nor is character growth. My issue is when a character is when so much happens to a character they become someone else entirely. That's not really character growth, that's alteration. A typical person will always be the same person they have always been since becoming self aware. Being raped, or nearly (but perhaps in the X-Men's case) ACTUALLY killed, might alter that personality to some degree but even then I think a person who came BACK to life would value his or her existence even more. Its just the human thing to do.

Honestly I thought after wolvie got his memories back I thought he would totally go all buddha on me act even more big brotherly. If anything it seems he acts just as feral as ever. That was a missed opportunity for actual growth there beyond being a beserker.

Cyclops, cyclops. This one I would likely argue. He is being forced into some kind of magneto / anakin skywalker thing that should have never taken place. And him and Xavier is more than a rebellion against step daddy. Hell I don't remember him grieving for his own father! All he seems to do is walk around scream "198! Flat-Scans Die! Must hump all orifices in existence!" This is NOT growth, hell I don't think it's a lateral movement. More like have a nervous breakdown or mid-life crisis. Turning the quintessential true hero of the X-Men from the beginning into racist and villain is just...inane and lazy.

I completely disagree. Do you watch Breaking Bad? That show shows desperation brings out things in men they never knew existed in them before.

I think what happened to Cyclops is the same thing that happen to Superman when he watch Lois die in Kingdom come.

Both men saw their dream die, they saw the white fence, the house, the dog, the kid, all be shattered into a million pieces and knew then that nothing COULD be the same for them ever again. I think it makes perfect sense to me that Scott would have a mid-life crisis after everything that has happened and all the pressure Scott put on HIMSELF. I think he believe he has failed as a leader to live up to his own standard he set out for himself and changed to make it more realistic to himself that he could accomplish his goals.

Wolvie being Buddha isn't logical either because he knows he has the ability to murder in him but Logan HAS changed for the better. 80's- 90's Wolverine was "AAGGGGGRRRRHH I'LL KILL YOOOUUUUUU!!!!!"

Current Wolverine is more " Hey c'mere bub. Yeah kid I like ya and think your have potential but...Y'know I'll kill ya right? Now get your shit together; later." I think people don't give Wolverine enough credit imo.

TL;DR: Both Wolvie and Cyke and changed over the years and both have evolved and THEIR BOTH HYPOCRITES! I know not everyone likes how the characters have evolved but to me it makes perfect sense after the hell these 2 men have been through.

@Franchise1590: Sorry to hear that you disagree. I watched all of breaking bad, but I don't really think its compatible to what I was trying to say. And the hell you mentioned was largely due to bad writing, and was largely unnecessary for story telling. Like I mentioned in another post, just subjecting characters to situations to see what happens is an experiment not a story. After a while the characters will not have attained any real forward momentum, any real character growth like a real person would. In actuality the affected characters will just become painted into a corner with no way out without a reboot. To me, it just soils the character's innate charm and appeal. After a while of the trauma they just can't be related to anymore. I sit and ask could this character even BE happy again? Even if they beat the monster of the week, have they just become another monster themselves? Will I actually be happy when they finally get put down like a suffering animal? I shouldn't even have to ask the questions.

I want to read X-Men to see incredible stories based on the human experience of life, which is no different than a mutant one sans powers of course.

Your assessment of Wolvie is pretty accurate btw, kudos for that, but as far as Cyclops goes...the current Cyke is little more than the amalgamation of poor writing and editorial decisions since Bob Harras stopped babysitting inept writers. Its the truth.

@chasereis said:

@Franchise1590: Sorry to hear that you disagree. I watched all of breaking bad, but I don't really think its compatible to what I was trying to say. And the hell you mentioned was largely due to bad writing, and was largely unnecessary for story telling. Like I mentioned in another post, just subjecting characters to situations to see what happens is an experiment not a story. After a while the characters will not have attained any real forward momentum, any real character growth like a real person would. In actuality the affected characters will just become painted into a corner with no way out without a reboot. To me, it just soils the character's innate charm and appeal. After a while of the trauma they just can't be related to anymore. I sit and ask could this character even BE happy again? Even if they beat the monster of the week, have they just become another monster themselves? Will I actually be happy when they finally get put down like a suffering animal? I shouldn't even have to ask the questions.

I want to read X-Men to see incredible stories based on the human experience of life, which is no different than a mutant one sans powers of course.

Your assessment of Wolvie is pretty accurate btw, kudos for that, but as far as Cyclops goes...the current Cyke is little more than the amalgamation of poor writing and editorial decisions since Bob Harras stopped babysitting inept writers. Its the truth.

I definitely agree that some of the events that's been happening over the years were a bit too forced out and that never sits too well with me, even if the changes are supposedly for the better. I just hope that whatever changes are happening in the current X-Men universe actually has some kind of impact in future stories.

@waezi2 said:

@TheAmazingImmortalMan: kinda like Magneto?

yes

@chasereis said:

@dangallant984: Well...the changing thing? I'm mixed on that. Tell you why. Changing a character is not a bad thing, nor is character growth. My issue is when a character is when so much happens to a character they become someone else entirely. That's not really character growth, that's alteration. A typical person will always be the same person they have always been since becoming self aware. Being raped, or nearly (but perhaps in the X-Men's case) ACTUALLY killed, might alter that personality to some degree but even then I think a person who came BACK to life would value his or her existence even more. Its just the human thing to do.

Honestly I thought after wolvie got his memories back I thought he would totally go all buddha on me act even more big brotherly. If anything it seems he acts just as feral as ever. That was a missed opportunity for actual growth there beyond being a beserker.

Cyclops, cyclops. This one I would likely argue. He is being forced into some kind of magneto / anakin skywalker thing that should have never taken place. And him and Xavier is more than a rebellion against step daddy. Hell I don't remember him grieving for his own father! All he seems to do is walk around scream "198! Flat-Scans Die! Must hump all orifices in existence!" This is NOT growth, hell I don't think it's a lateral movement. More like have a nervous breakdown or mid-life crisis. Turning the quintessential true hero of the X-Men from the beginning into racist and villain is just...inane and lazy.

I see what you mean, but by my reading of the characters, the ways that they've changed make perfect sense.

But then, I never saw Cyclops as "the quintessential true hero of the X-Men", I saw him as perhaps the most flawed of all of Xavier's students. He starts off as a kid so burdened by his powers, and his perceived debt to his benefactor, that he simply won't let himself be happy. When all of his friends leave the school, he stays on, even when Xavier leaves. He harps so hard on doing things Xavier's way, that he even argues with Xavier about it! He only leaves the school at all because Storm won't let him be in charge. And every time Xavier fails him, he only drives himself harder. By the time his faith in Xavier is completely nullified, he's got nothing but his life as a soldier, in a war that never ends, to hold himself together with.

@Franchise1590: haha! yeah.

@Rabbitearsblog: Could not have put it better myself...

@dangallant984: I remember that happening at some point but overall, Scott just flew the coup. Deep down I think that he has been written to resent Xavier and it just feels like he is transposing his failures on to Charles. Scott was never like that, he always shouldered the burden himself and never shared it. Actually re-reading your post sounds alot like a certain band of time traveling mutants, ones that like to take techno-organic babies to the future and clone them...yea that's not Cyke.

Anyway my whole point was not that the events that transpired are "bad", just would be more realistic and in tune with characters if someone else had done them and not Scott. If Cable did it and there was a multi-tiered conflict between Scott, Charles and Cable... that would be cool. I would like that very much and it just seems like it would really happen. It would just make sense, allow me to elucidate a scenario.

Hypothetical here, Jean survives planet X. Scott and Jean separate and reconcile after a while, but in doing so he focused so much attention on his marriage he lost control of the X-Men. Charles is losing his sway with the newer X-Men after M-day and the onslaught fall out and there begins several inside conflicts that cause some X-Men to retire or just leave with a new group that is disenchanted with the progress of Xavier's dream. That group would be lead by Cable and Wolverine. They already hate each other and Cable doesn't feel the Dream is worth saving. The X-Men for the first time disband. Uncanny/Astonishing/Amazing/Add adjective here X-Men book goes on hiatus. Cable as the new leader, enlists Magneto as council and begins his push back program against the flat scans with a new Black ops X-Force (much like the uncanny x-force) lead by Wolverine. Just like in the real UXF Wolverine and Cable disagree and a schism occurs. Many of the same sub-story lines then occur leading to AvX. Cable takes the place of Cyclops as phoenix conduit, and leads us to the same place of killing Xavier. Cyclops then comes back into action rebuilding the school with Wolverine and X-Men. Instead of Beast going back into time to get the O5, everyone goes back in time to save Christopher from Apocalypse and his Dark Riders. At this point you can essentially "flashpoint" the entire X-Universe into what your want to logically revamp the books to a new generation's interest level. At risk of sounding arrogant, this is a more logical outcome than the piecemeal paycheck to paycheck stories we have been getting. Of course it would never work without a single next generation "claremont" to helm the multiple years of transition along with a similar tenured editor to oversee it.

@chasereis said:

@dangallant984: I remember that happening at some point but overall, Scott just flew the coup. Deep down I think that he has been written to resent Xavier and it just feels like he is transposing his failures on to Charles. Scott was never like that, he always shouldered the burden himself and never shared it. Actually re-reading your post sounds alot like a certain band of time traveling mutants, ones that like to take techno-organic babies to the future and clone them...yea that's not Cyke..

The way I remember it, Cyclops has been written to resent Xavier since the late 70's, and with good reason. They argued constantly through the 80's; it was really only at the end of Claremont's run that they seemed to reconcile, and the following writers spent most of the next decade forgetting the way Claremont had written them.

To me, it seemed more that Cyclops had been pigeon-holed into the boy scout role by editorial decree or writers who just didn't get him, giving us the popular conception of him as a one dimensional, boring character, that bogged him down through most of the 90's.

That said, I totally agree with your comment about "piecemeal" story telling. If the creative team and the cast can't stay somewhat consistent for more than one or two story arcs, then there won't be another great era of X-men, because it's those things that hold an era together, and give it the room to become it's own thing.

So here's hoping that Storm's X-men is popular, because, right now, it looks like the best bet we've got.

Kind of messed up when your generations version of Xavier is Wolverine. Just sayin'. I like the character and all.. but man. Though, since Schism, you may be right.

@DarkxSeraph said:

Kind of messed up when your generations version of Xavier is Wolverine. Just sayin'. I like the character and all.. but man. Though, since Schism, you may be right.

Wolverine may have done a lot more terrible things than Xavier, but I think his awareness of this makes him much less self righteous than Xavier, and, because of this, more trustworthy. And, for all the good he's done, Xavier has also given all of the X-men reasons to not trust his judgement.

And Wolverine will defer to Storm and the other X-men if they don't agree with him, which is something I've never seen Xavier do. All in all, I think he may have actually developed into a better figurehead than Xavier.

Oh, Xavier was definitely a shady and manipulative old bird (just one example would be the Deady Genesis arc), but I don't think he's on a nigh genocidal body count as Logan. In fact, when he founded the Jean Grey School, it kind of made me raise a brow. Yes, Logan has a habit of training and helping younger X-Men (re: Kitty and Jubilee, for example), but taking on something the scale of the school seems a but too macro for him. I just think it odd. Now, IF they were going the whole: war weary samurai passing down his knowledge as sensei, sure. But pull him back to focus on perhaps that and his own book, and withdraw him from everything under the sun. When you see the characterizations of him in other books (e.g. the cigar smoking, beer swilling, 'I have no issue gutting you as soon as looking at you' guy), you look askance at him in a role such as Headmaster.

I never liked Cyclops so he can do whatever he wants I wouldn't care in the least. Do I think he and Wolverine are going to be the next Magneto and Xavier? Well that's what it's looking like so yeah.

@DarkxSeraph said:

Oh, Xavier was definitely a shady and manipulative old bird (just one example would be the Deady Genesis arc), but I don't think he's on a nigh genocidal body count as Logan. In fact, when he founded the Jean Grey School, it kind of made me raise a brow. Yes, Logan has a habit of training and helping younger X-Men (re: Kitty and Jubilee, for example), but taking on something the scale of the school seems a but too macro for him. I just think it odd. Now, IF they were going the whole: war weary samurai passing down his knowledge as sensei, sure. But pull him back to focus on perhaps that and his own book, and withdraw him from everything under the sun. When you see the characterizations of him in other books (e.g. the cigar smoking, beer swilling, 'I have no issue gutting you as soon as looking at you' guy), you look askance at him in a role such as Headmaster.

I just meant that Wolverine has been on a long path of redemption ever since he joined the X-men, and Xavier never seems to try to redeem himself. If I were an X-man, I'd be much more inclined to trust Wolverine than Xavier, based on that alone.

That said, I agree that they'd have an easier time trying to sell the idea of Wolverine in that role (the world weary, yet still idealistic samurai), if they'd commit to it a bit more. And I'd certainly prefer to see him used more sparingly, if only to make his presence more potent when he was used.

I think he really could run the school and be an Avenger without being in every issue that comes out, like, just as a background character in both, like Xavier was..

@dangallant984: Nah, man. Didn't see that at all. It seemed to me it was more like trying to solidify his personality vs Xavier in those days. Cyclops and Xavier today is far more like outright hatred. I mean it is like being young, loving your dad and not wanting to be him. However you don't have ostracize or unload random amounts of unbridled rancor upon him to find yourself. The character isn't that weak. That just feels like some repressed writer getting his "daddy doesn't love me" feelings onto a page to exorcise the demons.

However that is not to say that you are incorrect about Cyclops being limited in 90's but let's really look at the writing here. Each writer sans Claremont has so much bias running into the story, they pick their favorite characters to spotlight, demonize the one they don't like yet are popular (Cyclops and Jean) and make changes to critical elements of their environment without having a clean-up scenario to fall back on. I don't think Seagle, Kelly, Nicieza, Lobdell, Morrison, Austen (Ugh) really cared about the books the moment they left as they no longer profited from it.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Scott. However I do agree with you on Xavier, in fact I will one-up you. I'm tired of the "Xavier dunnit" crap, like you said they don't even bother trying to reconcile his failures. Sad really and he is the lynch pin of the entire X-universe. I mean unless you got DD's you can't catch a break as a telepath.

@chasereis said:.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Scott.

I can't even express how refreshing it is to hear someone say this.

@dangallant984: Ok, now you've just confused me. I guess I'll just go with it. Besides we seem to both like the "outback" cast. As long as you like Jubes we'll be aight...

@Matchstick said:

I don't think they are being turned into bad guys at all. I do however think that they are being turned into the next generation's versions of Magneto and Xavier.

so true

@Smart_Dork_Dude said:

I never liked Cyclops so he can do whatever he wants I wouldn't care in the least. Do I think he and Wolverine are going to be the next Magneto and Xavier? Well that's what it's looking like so yeah.

I thought they were already the new Eric and Charles lol

@chasereis said:

@dangallant984: Ok, now you've just confused me. I guess I'll just go with it. Besides we seem to both like the "outback" cast. As long as you like Jubes we'll be aight...

ha! sure. as long as I don't have to like Dazzler!

@dangallant984: Yes, you are allowed to hate Dazzler unless Marc Silvestri is drawing her. Then there is just something wrong medically...lulz.

oh.

Well I guess I'd best be to the clinic, 'cause I don't like much of anything drawn by Silvestri. Wait, did he do the Genosha storyline? the first one? That was pretty well done. I really only know him from X-men, and most of the art was pretty sloppy during the replacement era..