Just finished reading AVX 12 and this was one of the better issues in the series is terms of writing, pacing, scale and art. that being said. i have some questions about a few things that happened in the issue.

1. How in the world does The Scarlett Witch's hex bolts hurt the DARK PHOENIX? just doesn't seem believable to me.

2. Did Hope and Wanda really just do away with a cosmic entity like the Phoenix by saying a simple sentence? Aren't there like cosmic rules about that in the Marvel Universe?

3. When Cap starts talking to Cyclops, he says something about his renegade X-Men, is that Magneto that is shown on the top of the page?

4. Also in regards to renegade X-Men, do you think the Avengers feel that everyone who didn't fight with them to stop the Phoenix is a renegade X-Man?

5. Is it just me, or does Cyclops come off as a complete badass when he tells Cap that he was right about the Phoenix being there to reignite the mutant race?

6. Oh and remember in House of M, Wanda committed genocide at the end and I don't believe she ever seen the inside of a jail cell or was held prisoner by anyone or anything except for her own guilt, so what makes Cyclops different?

@photowill404 said:

Just finished reading AVX 12 and this was one of the better issues in the series is terms of writing, pacing, scale and art. that being said. i have some questions about a few things that happened in the issue.

1. How in the world does The Scarlett Witch's hex bolts hurt the DARK PHOENIX? just doesn't seem believable to me.

2. Did Hope and Wanda really just do away with a cosmic entity like the Phoenix by saying a simple sentence? Aren't there like cosmic rules about that in the Marvel Universe?

3. When Cap starts talking to Cyclops, he says something about his renegade X-Men, is that Magneto that is shown on the top of the page?

4. Also in regards to renegade X-Men, do you think the Avengers feel that everyone who didn't fight with them to stop the Phoenix is a renegade X-Man?

5. Is it just me, or does Cyclops come off as a complete badass when he tells Cap that he was right about the Phoenix being there to reignite the mutant race?

6. Oh and remember in House of M, Wanda committed genocide at the end and I don't believe she ever seen the inside of a jail cell or was held prisoner by anyone or anything except for her own guilt, so what makes Cyclops different?

All excellent questions!

I was going to ask these two, but I see you already asked them for me!

6. he makes perfect jailbait material, and he knows that.

@photowill404 said:

Just finished reading AVX 12 and this was one of the better issues in the series is terms of writing, pacing, scale and art. that being said. i have some questions about a few things that happened in the issue.

1. How in the world does The Scarlett Witch's hex bolts hurt the DARK PHOENIX? just doesn't seem believable to me.

2. Did Hope and Wanda really just do away with a cosmic entity like the Phoenix by saying a simple sentence? Aren't there like cosmic rules about that in the Marvel Universe?

3. When Cap starts talking to Cyclops, he says something about his renegade X-Men, is that Magneto that is shown on the top of the page?

4. Also in regards to renegade X-Men, do you think the Avengers feel that everyone who didn't fight with them to stop the Phoenix is a renegade X-Man?

5. Is it just me, or does Cyclops come off as a complete badass when he tells Cap that he was right about the Phoenix being there to reignite the mutant race?

6. Oh and remember in House of M, Wanda committed genocide at the end and I don't believe she ever seen the inside of a jail cell or was held prisoner by anyone or anything except for her own guilt, so what makes Cyclops different?

1. "Magic" Plus technically they are apparently polar opposites Wanda's magic is pure chaos and the phoenix is pure order or something.

2. Yes.

3-4. I think it was Magneto and I think anyone who didn't fight with the Avengers are considered Renegade unless they turn themselves in.

5. I don't know it felt a bit cold.

6. The way I see it Captain America's excuse for this is that while Wanda almost committed Genocide on an entire race Cyclops almost committed genocide on the entire earth. Still doesn't excuse that it goes against the justifications why Wanda isn't in a prison though considering their excuse for her was that after losing her two children she wasn't in a fit state of mind, when it is similar to what Cyclops is and has gone through considering all the friends and family lost before the Phoenix force arrived and the fact that he was already in no control over the PF when he had all of it.

Just finished reading AVX 12 and this was one of the better issues in the series is terms of writing, pacing, scale and art. that being said. i have some questions about a few things that happened in the issue.

1. How in the world does The Scarlett Witch's hex bolts hurt the DARK PHOENIX? just doesn't seem believable to me.

2. Did Hope and Wanda really just do away with a cosmic entity like the Phoenix by saying a simple sentence? Aren't there like cosmic rules about that in the Marvel Universe?

3. When Cap starts talking to Cyclops, he says something about his renegade X-Men, is that Magneto that is shown on the top of the page?

4. Also in regards to renegade X-Men, do you think the Avengers feel that everyone who didn't fight with them to stop the Phoenix is a renegade X-Man?

5. Is it just me, or does Cyclops come off as a complete badass when he tells Cap that he was right about the Phoenix being there to reignite the mutant race?

6. Oh and remember in House of M, Wanda committed genocide at the end and I don't believe she ever seen the inside of a jail cell or was held prisoner by anyone or anything except for her own guilt, so what makes Cyclops different?

Wanda redeemed herself or some such sort. the PF being wished away by hope & wanda...... destroyed the little faith i had left in marvel..... i mean over the past fee years all they have done is denounce both Jean Grey & the Phoenix force yet revamped a new jean grey as a teenager.... again marvel has fallen off

To see wanda go free pisses me off ;(

I'm also curious about some of these questions. especially number 6. I am a huge fan of the scarlet witch and happy to see her back in the marvel universe but I think Cyclops gets screwed over here in terms of punishment. Especially because in The Children's Crusade when they bring Wanda back, the X-Men show up to bring her in for her crimes but Captain America says that no matter what her crime she is an avenger and they take care of her own. That's just bs and makes it seem like he doesn't give a crap because it only happened to mutants. And what about all the mutants that died instantly as a result of losing their powers because of House of M? She killed a lot of innocent people with that no more mutants crap. I like Scarlet Witch but I like Cyclops better and I love when he said he would do it all again. Anyway that's my two cents. I hate how the x-men once again got screwed here, but I get that they are building up avengers for the Marvel NOW release, just would like to see Cyclops catch a break.

Don't get why Magneto is wanted now either. Hopefully more will be explained with the renegade mutants soon.

@captkangaroo727: exactly. Wanda kills countless people and Cap deems that because she's an Avenger she gets a pass. total crap. I thing the X-men are just being ruined by the current Avengers status quo at marvel and its just sad. They are such a great team and to have them written so poorly and out of character just to make the Avengers look and sell better really makes me upset. I'm just wondering how long it will be before Cyclops is brought back to the limelight to help the 'Uncanny Avengers' or the 'All New X-Men' with some world crisis.

I kind of find it funny that people think the PF will actually be gone forever. This is Marvel, where everyone but Uncle Ben can come back from the dead at any time, sometimes with no explanation at all and no one questions it. If anything the PF is one of the few times Marvel's joke that death has become actually makes sense. It'll be back in under a year I guarantee it.

@joshmightbe said:

I kind of find it funny that people think the PF will actually be gone forever. This is Marvel, where everyone but Uncle Ben can come back from the dead at any time, sometimes with no explanation at all and no one questions it. If anything the PF is one of the few times Marvel's joke that death has become actually makes sense. It'll be back in under a year I guarantee it.

its not that people are mad that its gone everyone should know that it is not gone because if it was gone the entire universe would have collapsed and would cease to exist. Its just the point of a cosmic being with the power to destroy the universe was controlled by a girl with no experience with its power in like 5 seconds and that it was wished away with 3 words come on.

@JohnnyGat said:

6. The way I see it Captain America's excuse for this is that while Wanda almost committed Genocide on an entire race Cyclops almost committed genocide on the entire earth. Still doesn't excuse that it goes against the justifications why Wanda isn't in a prison though considering their excuse for her was that after losing her two children she wasn't in a fit state of mind, when it is similar to what Cyclops is and has gone through considering all the friends and family lost before the Phoenix force arrived and the fact that he was already in no control over the PF when he had all of it.

Wanda redeemed herself or some such sort. the PF being wished away by hope & wanda...... destroyed the little faith i had left in marvel..... i mean over the past fee years all they have done is denounce both Jean Grey & the Phoenix force yet revamped a new jean grey as a teenager.... again marvel has fallen off

@lorex said:

@XsPectre28 said:

Wanda redeemed herself or some such sort. the PF being wished away by hope & wanda...... destroyed the little faith i had left in marvel..... i mean over the past fee years all they have done is denounce both Jean Grey & the Phoenix force yet revamped a new jean grey as a teenager.... again marvel has fallen off

Wanda has never redeemed herself. What about all the mutants that died when she snaped her fingers and made their powers disappear. Powers some were dependent on to live. Or the students at Xaviers that were executed by Purifiers when they were being sent home when they were depowered. Lets not forget her killing Agatha Harkness, Vision and Hawakeye. Helping end the Phoenix Force presence on Earth does not make everything alright for her past actions.

Amen!!!!!!

1. Stupidity, and the writers not understanding what the Phoenix was prior to this event.

2. This is the most baffling thing about the event. Removing the Phoenix from the universe, if that's what they actually did, should pretty much end everything. It would be like...saying "No more Galactus". Things you simply cannot do.

3-4. Already answered by other people.

5. He was right about everything in this event. Captain America, hell; the entire roster of the Avengers, have never dealt with the Phoenix. It was absurd for any of them to think they knew what they were doing. Scott did what Cable told him, and everything Cable told him, came true. Well...aside from the Avengers killing Hope and the Phoenix destroying Earth.

6. I believe most of what Wanda did was retconned to be Doctor Dooms fault anyway, or some nonsense like that. So...yeah.

There are Marvel's Editor-in-Chief answers from his interview with CBR He really doesn't explain much though.

2. Did Hope and Wanda really just do away with a cosmic entity like the Phoenix by saying a simple sentence? Aren't there like cosmic rules about that in the Marvel Universe?

Alonso: The Phoenix Force was split into many pieces and dispersed around the world to reignite mutantdom, like a flame lights a candle. How’s that for an explanation?

5. Is it just me, or does Cyclops come off as a complete badass when he tells Cap that he was right about the Phoenix being there to reignite the mutant race?

Alonso: What I respect about Scott is that he walked the walk and talked the talk and made no excuses when the smoke cleared. When you see him in handcuffs at the end of "AvX," he's completely accountable for all of his actions, and I think it speaks volumes about the man.

6. Oh and remember in House of M, Wanda committed genocide at the end and I don't believe she ever seen the inside of a jail cell or was held prisoner by anyone or anything except for her own guilt, so what makes Cyclops different?

Alonso: On one side you’ve got Wanda whose declaration in “In House of M” – "No More Mutants" – decimated the mutant population and set the stage for years of stories. Yeah, "Avengers: The Children's Crusade" proved she wasn't technically responsible, but she wasn’t going to let herself off the hook all that easily. She’d want to earn her redemption.

2. No White phoenix of the crown no phoenix event I,d say what controlled the P5 was a shared of the phoenix that jean had yet to collect. So AvX repercussion should be fun a thousand little shards of phoenix is sure to draw the white phoenix to earth to see what the humans have done.

@Crimsonlord53 said:

2. No White phoenix of the crown no phoenix event I,d say what controlled the P5 was a shared of the phoenix that jean had yet to collect. So AvX repercussion should be fun a thousand little shards of phoenix is sure to draw the white phoenix to earth to see what the humans have done.

that actually, if done right would be something very intriguing to see happen. it would also be a good way to bring 'the real' Jean Grey back even if it is only for that story.

@photowill404: The only problem being you have to trust marvel to do it right.

Heck I may just writs a fanfic for it.

Now where to find the time.

@stormphoenix: it wasnt wandas fault about no more mutants it was dr.doom and wanda being possessed by the life force...........i think its just a cop out on marvels part, some where out there in marvel they must really really really like wanda.........

im thinking "no more marvel" for me because its getting babyish...........i dont think ill be buying it anymore,ill just see it online for free anyways

and marvel still didnt reveal a hope/phoenix/jean grey connection

@MagnificentStorm: It wasn't even the dumbest part of this crossover

@photowill404 said:

Just finished reading AVX 12 and this was one of the better issues in the series is terms of writing, pacing, scale and art. that being said. i have some questions about a few things that happened in the issue.

1. How in the world does The Scarlett Witch's hex bolts hurt the DARK PHOENIX? just doesn't seem believable to me.

2. Did Hope and Wanda really just do away with a cosmic entity like the Phoenix by saying a simple sentence? Aren't there like cosmic rules about that in the Marvel Universe?

3. When Cap starts talking to Cyclops, he says something about his renegade X-Men, is that Magneto that is shown on the top of the page?

4. Also in regards to renegade X-Men, do you think the Avengers feel that everyone who didn't fight with them to stop the Phoenix is a renegade X-Man?

5. Is it just me, or does Cyclops come off as a complete badass when he tells Cap that he was right about the Phoenix being there to reignite the mutant race?

6. Oh and remember in House of M, Wanda committed genocide at the end and I don't believe she ever seen the inside of a jail cell or was held prisoner by anyone or anything except for her own guilt, so what makes Cyclops different?

1. Anything is possible in the world of avx.
2. Yep. Phoenix force is no more. It is listed as of now as dead in the marvel database.
3. Yep.
4. Yep. The Avengers are a-holes.
5. Hellz yeah. Team Cyclops.
6. Technically she was possessed at the time and had no control.What make cyclops different is because...well...

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE said:

@stormphoenix: it wasnt wandas fault about no more mutants it was dr.doom and wanda being possessed by the life force...........i think its just a cop out on marvels part, some where out there in marvel they must really really really like wanda.........

im thinking "no more marvel" for me because its getting babyish...........i dont think ill be buying it anymore,ill just see it online for free anyways

and marvel still didnt reveal a hope/phoenix/jean grey connection

yeah i never did buy into that whole 'No More Mutants' thing was Dr. Doom's fault and or idea. it goes totally against his character. Doom wouldnt just wipe out the mutants and then no have people know it was him from the onset. He is vain as hell and would want the credit for it. Marvel and their retcon are out of control as of late. and totally feel cheated as to the whole lack of jean/hope/phoenix connection.

@HopesummersFORtheFUTURE said:

@stormphoenix: it wasnt wandas fault about no more mutants it was dr.doom and wanda being possessed by the life force...........i think its just a cop out on marvels part, some where out there in marvel they must really really really like wanda.........

im thinking "no more marvel" for me because its getting babyish...........i dont think ill be buying it anymore,ill just see it online for free anyways

and marvel still didnt reveal a hope/phoenix/jean grey connection

.....Ok that dosn't make sense at all so for her being possessed (Like the Phoenix Five) by the life force to kill or depower the mutant POP. Your telling me.......it's not her fault? -_^

What really makes me mad is this comment right here

Alonso: At our very first editorial summit, where we entertain all options, we quickly got that off the table. Our story was about the Phoenix Force’s new host, Hope, and Jean’s arrival on the scene didn’t make sense.

So Jeans just a host now because i could have thought she was the only "host" to become one with the phoenix. When the phoenix comes back Jean is suppose to come along for the ride.

@joshmightbe said:

@MagnificentStorm: It wasn't even the dumbest part of this crossover

what do yo u believe was the dumbest?

@x_29 said:

@photowill404 said:

Just finished reading AVX 12 and this was one of the better issues in the series is terms of writing, pacing, scale and art. that being said. i have some questions about a few things that happened in the issue.

1. How in the world does The Scarlett Witch's hex bolts hurt the DARK PHOENIX? just doesn't seem believable to me.

2. Did Hope and Wanda really just do away with a cosmic entity like the Phoenix by saying a simple sentence? Aren't there like cosmic rules about that in the Marvel Universe?

3. When Cap starts talking to Cyclops, he says something about his renegade X-Men, is that Magneto that is shown on the top of the page?

4. Also in regards to renegade X-Men, do you think the Avengers feel that everyone who didn't fight with them to stop the Phoenix is a renegade X-Man?

5. Is it just me, or does Cyclops come off as a complete badass when he tells Cap that he was right about the Phoenix being there to reignite the mutant race?

6. Oh and remember in House of M, Wanda committed genocide at the end and I don't believe she ever seen the inside of a jail cell or was held prisoner by anyone or anything except for her own guilt, so what makes Cyclops different?

1. Anything is possible in the world of avx.
2. Yep. Phoenix force is no more. It is listed as of now as dead in the marvel database.
3. Yep.
4. Yep. The Avengers are a-holes.
5. Hellz yeah. Team Cyclops.
6. Technically she was possessed at the time and had no control.What make cyclops different is because...well...

2. Well thats wrong since the phoenix cant be dead since the Marvel universe is still their.

6. I still dont see her being possessed she had some control over what she was doing it was probably her time of the month and she just had enough.

@stormphoenix: i know i dont get it either but apparently the life force is evil

Marvel was just in big favor of the Avengers. Cyclops could have burned the earth at will but the writers made him helpless against hope and wanda. I can't even believe that Captain america was able to deflect phoenix powered cyclop's optic blast. I really don't get it

@photowill404 said:

Just finished reading AVX 12 and this was one of the better issues in the series is terms of writing, pacing, scale and art. that being said. i have some questions about a few things that happened in the issue.

1. How in the world does The Scarlett Witch's hex bolts hurt the DARK PHOENIX? just doesn't seem believable to me.

2. Did Hope and Wanda really just do away with a cosmic entity like the Phoenix by saying a simple sentence? Aren't there like cosmic rules about that in the Marvel Universe?

3. When Cap starts talking to Cyclops, he says something about his renegade X-Men, is that Magneto that is shown on the top of the page?

4. Also in regards to renegade X-Men, do you think the Avengers feel that everyone who didn't fight with them to stop the Phoenix is a renegade X-Man?

5. Is it just me, or does Cyclops come off as a complete badass when he tells Cap that he was right about the Phoenix being there to reignite the mutant race?

6. Oh and remember in House of M, Wanda committed genocide at the end and I don't believe she ever seen the inside of a jail cell or was held prisoner by anyone or anything except for her own guilt, so what makes Cyclops different?

bravo,mate!

This is my question:

If the Phoenix is officially listed as "dead" now... then doesn't that alter the rules of reality?

If the Phoenix is a cosmic entity of death and rebirth who essentially destroys what "doesn't work" in the universe and replaces it with new life... then wouldn't the universe enter into a state of stagnation until the failed elements that the Phoenix would have wiped out grow to outnumber the successful elements of life? Ultimately leading the universe into the fate of becoming something that "doesn't work"?

In other words, did Scarlet Witch and Hope just royally screw up existence itself? Or will something else come into existence to take the Phoenix's place so that the universe won't stop functioning?

@photowill404 said:

Just finished reading AVX 12 and this was one of the better issues in the series is terms of writing, pacing, scale and art. that being said. i have some questions about a few things that happened in the issue.

1. How in the world does The Scarlett Witch's hex bolts hurt the DARK PHOENIX? just doesn't seem believable to me.

2. Did Hope and Wanda really just do away with a cosmic entity like the Phoenix by saying a simple sentence? Aren't there like cosmic rules about that in the Marvel Universe?

3. When Cap starts talking to Cyclops, he says something about his renegade X-Men, is that Magneto that is shown on the top of the page?

4. Also in regards to renegade X-Men, do you think the Avengers feel that everyone who didn't fight with them to stop the Phoenix is a renegade X-Man?

5. Is it just me, or does Cyclops come off as a complete badass when he tells Cap that he was right about the Phoenix being there to reignite the mutant race?

6. Oh and remember in House of M, Wanda committed genocide at the end and I don't believe she ever seen the inside of a jail cell or was held prisoner by anyone or anything except for her own guilt, so what makes Cyclops different?

If you read the old Excalibur from the 80's, Galactus came to earth to kill the Pheonix. Then the watcher came to earth and told Galactus that if he did that, the entire universe would collapse and he would live in the vast nothingness forever. So he left Rachel alone.

The Phoenix Force has been killed in other realities without much happening at all.

Didn't Wanda's "No More Mutants" spell have a multiverse effect? That's what the wiki said, don't know how true it is... but it would explain just how powerful she is. She is also connected to the Life Force and isn't that why she went crazy in the first place?

The Life Force could possibly be connected to the Phoenix Force which is why she is able to harm it and like someone else said, they are basically opposites, order and chaos.

I don't think they actually destroyed the Phoenix, it just split into many fragments and created more mutants. I also don't think that was the complete Phoenix either, the actual force is in many pieces which are being collected by Jean, right?