Man now you have me thinking. I love Storm and think shes a great leader but you make some valid points. However I just for the most part chalk it up to bad writing and a bad idea in not including her. Maybe she was trying to find the cure in Wakanda. Or maybe she was giving everyone their time and chances to make things right and after that she feels the need to take over now. I dont know

Yea I've felt similarly about her for a while and i dont believe it can all be put up to bad writing. Storm left the X-men, but was supposedly doing commutes from Wakanda to the team when they were in San Francisco. She was conveniently absent during most minor battles, but i'm pretty sure she was there during every big battle to serve as a surprise return or a big gun, but it was always brought up by Emma or Cyclops that she was just getting to the scene. You can excuse her absence's as having a life outside of the team, and doing her best to balance her responsibilities as a Queen and a X-Man without letting someone fall through the crack.

My problem with her starts from X-Men v3, when she's given the security team to run. Storm who doesn't live on Utopia decides that her team won't be based out of Utopia and pretty much cuts ties with Utopia when she finds out about a pre historic form of Mutant and decides she doesn't trust Cyclops with the information.

The idea that Storm who is a part timer essentially doesn't want to tell Cyclops, the guy running the island with most of the mutant population, something that has the potential to change the way the world views mutant kind and won't even consider it amongst her own team is questionable considering she was on the otherside of the world planning a wedding when the people she doesn't trust were burying de-powered children that were blown up on the front lawn.


Since then Storm's sort of bothered me in that the characters treat her as always in the right. And not to devalue her leadership time, but her bad decisions and flighty attitude in the past make it seem awkward when you realize people can't wait to have the chick that spent most of the Post M-Day period as a part timer as the Co-Head of the school.

I think the character decided to take a journey/new direction during a controversial time and when it was over she was put back on the team as if nothing happened. And it's very glaring when you look at the JGS leadership and look who they put in charge.

The whole JGS concept with Logan in charge from the beginning was a joke if you ask me. Like I said Ive always been a fan of Storm but this has really put a big question on her leadership for me. I still think though that its bad writing or concept in terms of having her go off with Black Panther anyway. Even with that though she could have still tried to help out by making Wakanda a safe haven for the mutant population. Her actions in Xmen volume 3 are questionable but I just always attributed it to her not liking the direction everything was and pursuing an alternative which has certainly been her nature in the past. Im thinking her challenge to Scott before as well as Xtreme Xmen. Really though for her to be so aligned with Wolverine considering how shes felt about Cyclops and Xforce and even Colossus has been a bad portrayal of her character. Talk about a Schism!! God!! At least Cyclops can admit what he is and what he is trying to accomplish. The JGS side is just filled with a bunch of hypocrites. Wolverine, Beast and Storm are leading the parade

My point exactly. It's like if Storm's distrust for Cyke stems from his questionable decisions then it seems like not critiquing Logan and Beast is something perplexing. Heck, for Beast to be allied with Wolverine is more perplexing.

But for Storm to be so high up in the teams hierarchy bothers me, since in my opinion Rogue has probably been more of an X-Man in the last decade then her but would never have made it to Storm's level at the JGS because she's not nearly as close with Wolverine and Beast.
At the JGS it's friendship that helps you move up the ranks not recent history/actions/behavior.....seriously do the writers read the books before they write? because their characters are kinda jerks.

lol the rabid legion of Storm fans will not be pleased.

Can't say I was following her that much to know, BUT that's what I see reading most of the Decimation-era books and comparing them to Now! it's like now writers do all they can to make us feel like she is sooo relevant without respecting continuity, which I personally hate the same way I hate stupid writing. So yeah, maybe not including her into most of that post-M-day era and the whole wedding with BP was editorially driven, or whatever, but- facts are facts, and they do her not much honor from the in-universe POV. But, like always writers try to cover the previous mistakes by just ignoring them, the best way out since 1963 lol

Even with that though she could have still tried to help out by making Wakanda a safe haven for the mutant population

Interesting idea actually, and pretty much agree with everything else you said. It IS being handled poorly.

While I agree with you, I must also say unlike Wood's recent, Now! book, what I really liked about his previous run is actually the conflict Storm brought with her, I don't say I supported her, for me Cyclops was the absolute authority of that era, but I was enjoying another POV that wasn't idiotic and forced Aaron's Wolverine and his Schism, it was fresh and while it felt self-righteous, it wasn't 100% one-sided and boring. I do consider the proto-mutants concept pretty lame though, it was just a background for him to make a tragic entrance for his own token all-powerful character and for that conflict that was really enjoyable, and since Cyclops himself asked Storm to remain with him, he also had to pay the price :)

But what happens in JGS is a nonsense, realizing Aaron's push of Wolverine to positions he shouldn't take, the other writers or just editors also realized they need a real leader, and while there are not so many they just took an easy way out - to off the BP/Storm marriage and to make her a fully resurfaced totally and unquestionably relevant X-leader. Why? Just because. And the only one who questions her authority isn't even doing it for the right reasons. I just don't buy this.

I think it was a well written conflict. Its just that when you read a scene with her basically laying out her reason for not trusting the guy who is running the island with most of the mutants race on it, you think "this is going to be important to her character" but it's never expanded on (mostly due to AVX) and the fact that she stayed in Cyke's camp just makes her seem shady to me.


Also i'm a person hoping that Rachel's beef with Storm expands beyond "who's in charge" and actually moves into the legit issues within the JGS and its politics. Aaron sweeping Rachel's betrayal under the rug after AvX is arguably the biggest mistake he made.

@koays:

Its just that when you read a scene with her basically laying out her reason for not trusting the guy who is running the island with most of the mutants race on it, you think "this is going to be important to her character" but it's never expanded on (mostly due to AVX) and the fact that she stayed in Cyke's camp just makes her seem shady to me.

It was explained that Scott himself asked her to stay with him, to be his moral guide, because he already realized staying on team with Magneto, Namor, Illyana, even Colossus as Juggernaut, is just going into one direction. It was one of the best parts (well, acknowledging there wasn't many) in Schism I think.

Also i'm a person hoping that Rachel's beef with Storm expands beyond "who's in charge" and actually moves into the legit issues within the JGS and its politics. Aaron sweeping Rachel's betrayal under the rug after AvX is arguably the biggest mistake he made.

Felt like a conflict for the sake of it in its roots. Since when Storm is willing to kill so instantly, maybe possessed, yet a friend? I think it was lame, especially knowing how Rachel supposed to be more ruthless, she was the only one to oppose Storm, while Kitty, Psylocke and Rogue were OK with it? This is just lazy, a clash in the family winning formula that everybody likes? Meh.

Anyone who has the status of authority should be questioned.

That said, I don't think that Storm having her own stories outside of the X-men makes her less of an X-man than anyone else, even if they weren't at all interesting to me.

Sure she wasn't at the school when the buses got blown up, but it's not like every other X-man was either. Is it a mark against Storm that she trusted Cyclops and the others to run the X-men? or that, after everything leading up to schism, she didn't? Because both make sense to me.

Sure she didn't trust Cyclops with all of her recon findings, but why would she? Any authority she was granted by Cyclops to run her own team was a joke, really. She ran the X-men plenty of times without him and he never respected her authority then, why would she trust he would respect the authority that he allowed her while she did him the favor of being on his team. I mean, Cyclops had to talk her into staying when the other X-men left, saying that he needed her, and then he didn't even trust her to do her job. I get that respect runs two ways, but respect runs two ways.

@oldnightcrawler: If Storm wants to be on 2 even 3 teams and rule a country then that's her prerogative....and it adds depth to her character that she has a world outside of the X-Men. But if she's doing all that while not leading the X-Men then it's not her decision what the guy who is leading the X-Men should and shouldn't know if its important to mutants. At least not her decision alone, like she made it.

But that's not even the big issue, the issue is that she distrusted him so much, that she's willing to lie to her team and yet this major moral debate isn't discussed afterwards. That depiction of Storm is never followed up on or further explained and she just kept on peddling along in other books as if it never happened. So we end up with this portrait of a character who does what she wants, prioritizes things differently and never says why. The majority of Storms actions are left up to speculation, and she doesn't ever seem to be wrong or legitimately criticized.

@koays: the reason she isn't questioned or questioned often... is she DOES have the experience in making the hard calls. Up until House of M and Decimation.. Storm was the only X-Leader to ever make the hard calls. She chose to allign with Magneto and Hellfire. She chose to fake the deaths of the X-Men. She makes the hard choice to kill when absolutely necessary. Even Xavier's mind wipes aren't hard calls, he's just thinking he knows better.

Storm is her own person, she is no-one's subordinate. She will comply with orders, but she is a Leader in a way that even Cyclops is not. Its in her very bones, her blood, her ancient DNA to rule. She isn't questioned often because this aura of leadership and authority is inherent to her. People are willing to follow her, even reluctantly at times, because they know Storm can and will make the hard decisions, get the job done, and stand by her decisions (even if privately she worries about them).

It's not unclear why Storm questioned Cyclops' motives when she was leader of the security team. She stated them implicitly. She did not trust him. And with the evidence of X-Force's creation and mandate, and Cyclops' plans for the Extinction team, she was entirely justified.

By this time, Storm was easily 90% even 99% with the X-Men...at this stage, Shuri was Black Panther, and Storm wasn't in the book very much after that at all. Its not even remotely accurate to accuse her of being a part-time x-man. Wolverine is the biggest argument for STFU about this issue... Wolverine can be in 12 books a months and 4 or more teams, even leading one and a school and almost no-one questions his qualifications (not even Xavier)... but Storm can't be Queen of Wakanda and an X-Men squad leader. thats fragging bullshit.

Additionally... Storm was not part of the School that Emma Scott and Jean were running. She was leading X-Treme X-Men, and the XSE, and was at the mansion for all of three books before House of M. What does her presence change for those children exploded? Nothing. If Jean Grey couldn't save them.. and she's practically the mutant messiah... Storm couldn't have changed much. The Wedding was completely an editorial push, to coincide with Black History Month (or whatever), and the prelude the full-blown Civil War. We were all railroaded with that misstep of a marriage.

But, arguably, the only reason she wasn't leading the X-men at that point was because she stuck around to keep an eye on what Cyclops was doing, at his request. And by that point, Cyclops wasn't even the leader of all the X-men, let alone all mutants.

And, like I said, I'm not saying Storm couldn't or shouldn't be criticized, if anything that just makes sense for any one who's in charge. I'm just saying that, in the examples given, she would have a good argument justifying her actions.

yeah.

@oldnightcrawler:

Anyone who has the status of authority should be questioned.

Absolutely.

That said, I don't think that Storm having her own stories outside of the X-men makes her less of an X-man than anyone else, even if they weren't at all interesting to me.

What makes "less" X-men in not calling off her wedding date that happened right after multiple mutant/post-mutant massacres, what makes her "less" X-men is not being there for the most existential era in X-life, preferring a life of a Queen when those massacres happened.

Sure she wasn't at the school when the buses got blown up, but it's not like every other X-man was either. Is it a mark against Storm that she trusted Cyclops and the others to run the X-men? or that, after everything leading up to schism, she didn't? Because both make sense to me.

Every other X-man does not try to be the unquestioned and absolute leader, convicting Scott for his "failures" in absentia, like she was even there to give an alternative.

Since when trusting somebody is just a way out in times when the odds are against them? Don't tell me that you either refuse to see, or intentionally decide to overlook what is actually right in front of you, no matter whom she trusted or not, if she sees herself the leader she tries to become right now, she also should be selfless enough to move away from her selfishness in a royal life, but she didn't and after Scott fought his way to ensure mutantkind's survival, she reappears! And does this in the most disgusting way, siding with those who give Cyclops absolutely no credit and blaming him for what not, like she what, made anything better herself?

Sure she didn't trust Cyclops with all of her recon findings, but why would she? Any authority she was granted by Cyclops to run her own team was a joke, really. She ran the X-men plenty of times without him and he never respected her authority then, why would she trust he would respect the authority that he allowed her while she did him the favor of being on his team. I mean, Cyclops had to talk her into staying when the other X-men left, saying that he needed her, and then he didn't even trust her to do her job. I get that respect runs two ways, but respect runs two ways.

She lied to him because SHE didn't trust him and tried to hide their discoveries that according to Wood were groundbreaking for their kind, and while he was THE leader, I'm sure if they were is opposite conditions for each other, she would react even harsher. So I don't get your point.

That said, I don't think that Storm having her own stories outside of the X-men makes her less of an X-man than anyone else, even if they weren't at all interesting to me.

Absolutely not, but when she usurps the position she doesn't deserve (yes, she DOESN'T, because for the most definitive time for the mutantkind she played all kind of games, but not the most important and tough one, that wasn't even a game). There are Dani and Cannonball, they proved themselves well being successful field leaders. Maybe they lack her experience in running things that are not combat related, but having each other would balance the stakes. The reason to why that logically natural move haven't happen is they didn't have a massive fan-whimper to "irrationally" put them onto places they shouldn't take that easily, and they're just not big enough for their names. In-universe? Must be magic.

@devilsgrin81:

the reason she isn't questioned or questioned often... is she DOES have the experience in making the hard calls. Up until House of M and Decimation.. Storm was the only X-Leader to ever make the hard calls. She chose to allign with Magneto and Hellfire. She chose to fake the deaths of the X-Men. She makes the hard choice to kill when absolutely necessary. Even Xavier's mind wipes aren't hard calls, he's just thinking he knows better.

So was Scott, what's the point?

Storm is her own person, she is no-one's subordinate. She will comply with orders, but she is a Leader in a way that even Cyclops is not. Its in her very bones, her blood, her ancient DNA to rule. She isn't questioned often because this aura of leadership and authority is inherent to her. People are willing to follow her, even reluctantly at times, because they know Storm can and will make the hard decisions, get the job done, and stand by her decisions (even if privately she worries about them).

She can be her own person whenever she wants (and like she always does) without imposing herself to other X-men and positions she has to prove she deserves now. People that happen to have idiotic blackouts for the sake of any character are bad characteristics by writers, not because they "know" and what I know is her departure for the most frightening times.

It's not unclear why Storm questioned Cyclops' motives when she was leader of the security team. She stated them implicitly. She did not trust him. And with the evidence of X-Force's creation and mandate, and Cyclops' plans for the Extinction team, she was entirely justified.

X-force was absolutely necessary and justified, in-universe, canon call it whatever you want - without X-force there would be no restored mutantkind, I can explain it if you wish, paragraph by paragraph.

By this time, Storm was easily 90% even 99% with the X-Men...at this stage, Shuri was Black Panther, and Storm wasn't in the book very much after that at all. Its not even remotely accurate to accuse her of being a part-time x-man. Wolverine is the biggest argument for STFU about this issue... Wolverine can be in 12 books a months and 4 or more teams, even leading one and a school and almost no-one questions his qualifications (not even Xavier)...

I question Wolverine, and many, many more do as well, but I never really saw Storm accused with things she deserves to have be. And that's what I do right here, because that's the feeling I get. And no, she wasn't there for "90%" of Decimation era, I wonder if it gets to "30%".

but Storm can't be Queen of Wakanda and an X-Men squad leader. thats fragging bullshit.

She wasn't willing to, seemingly. She preferred to co-lead FF because that's exciting, or to become an Avenger in a context I don't even know, but she wasn't willing to make a step for her kind and waited until the problem will solve itself seemingly, hack that even wasn't her who opposed Scott during Schism for becoming too militant. She was too overwhelmed with her new status of Queen and its royalty benefits. Looks bad ha?

Additionally... Storm was not part of the School that Emma Scott and Jean were running. She was leading X-Treme X-Men, and the XSE, and was at the mansion for all of three books before House of M. What does her presence change for those children exploded? Nothing. If Jean Grey couldn't save them.. and she's practically the mutant messiah... Storm couldn't have changed much. The Wedding was completely an editorial push, to coincide with Black History Month (or whatever), and the prelude the full-blown Civil War. We were all railroaded with that misstep of a marriage.

Of course it was, but for the in-universe POV it still doen't matter, she got married right after around 50 were massacred, it looked bad and disrespecting especially when the other X-men enjoyed their time at her wedding, New X-men had to face Nimrod. Like I said, in-universe it was all bad, and everybody should notice now when she proclaims herself a new X-queen since that what she seems to care about the most, being a ruler.

@devilsgrin81: Yea here's the thing though. If you want to say that Storm has the right to make a decision not to tell Cyclops everything she knows when she's on his team, sure i'm with you. But if your saying that Storm and her TEAM of people, find out a piece of information that could have a huge effect on mutants in the world and she chooses to make a decision for all of them not to tell Cyclops or discuss the merits of her decision with the team..and shes supposed to be in the right, then i can't follow the logic.

Again i don't think Storm should compromise her morals or not make the tough decisions but she can't be painted in the right every time. And this idea that because Storm is independent it makes her immune to bad decisions or justifies everything she does is laughable. I mean Magneto is independent that doesn't make every call he makes "A'ok".

The problem I have is that it's accepted that Storm is the leader, but we only see the "I make tough calls" side, that every X-leader has. She doesn't need the constant second guessing that Scott does behind the scenes, but we never see the inner workings of Storm's reasoning....most of it is speculation. And if we don't see it, why assume the characters do? and if they don't why don't they care?

@oldnightcrawler- I feel we've argued the "Cyclops leader of the Mutants" point before. But i still don't think that Storm deciding by herself what information should be used for the benefit/harm of mutants is any better then Cyclops taking leadership of the Utopia mutants into his hands. She had something that could shape the future of mutants, deciding what to do with it by herself was a little much.

Only reason I clicked on this topic...I was getting ready to start making popcorn xD

@adamtrmm:

"What makes "less" X-men in not calling off her wedding date that happened right after multiple mutant/post-mutant massacres, what makes her "less" X-men is not being there for the most existential era in X-life, preferring a life of a Queen when those massacres happened"

I don't get how everyone has to debase Storm's decision to get married as though it was all about her wanting to be the Queen of Wakanda. I wasn't a big fan of those stories either, but acting like she was choosing to be a queen over -whatever else- isn't really a fair assessment of what was informing her decision. She wasn't choosing to be a queen, she was choosing to get married; because of who she married, she accepted the responsibility of queen, but that's not what she was choosing.

That her marriage happened around the same time as the bombings is just happenstance. That she was in one story while the X-men were in another without her, at the same time, does not itself make her less of an X-man. That's like saying Beast is less of an X-man for not helping save the X-men from Krakoa, because he was just having too much fun being an Avenger, or asking where Havok and Polaris were during the mutant massacre; there's just no reason to make that connection.

"Every other X-man does not try to be the unquestioned and absolute leader, convicting Scott for his "failures" in absentia, like she was even there to give an alternative.

When did Storm ever try to be the "unquestioned and absolute leader"? Was it when Xavier made her the leader, even though she still always deferred to his authority? Was it when she just let Cyclops take over her team when Xavier came back from space? Was it when Cyclops took over the school and she deferred to him as head of the X-men? Was it when she supported Cyclops while he was becoming the absolute leader of the SFX-men or Utopia?

I mean, Storm seemed to trust Cyclops and others to lead the team for years whether she was there or not, so it hardly seems like she was on any kind of power trip for leadership so much as it seems like she was just doing what she thought was right regardless of who was in charge. Which isn't the same thing.

"She lied to him because SHE didn't trust him and tried to hide their discoveries that according to Wood were groundbreaking for their kind, and while he was THE leader, I'm sure if they were is opposite conditions for each other, she would react even harsher. So I don't get your point."

I'm not going to try to justify that what Storm did in that situation, but I will say that Cyclops had given her plenty of reasons to not trust him.

Given that she knew Cyclops' agenda was not really in line with hers, or most of the other X-men's, based on the things he had kept hidden from them and the consequences of his leadership, I can see how Storm would feel a responsibility to make sure of what she had before she turned it over to however Cyclops would use the discovery. And even if it was as petty as secrets aren't so fun when their secrets, it still at least seems fair.

"Absolutely not, but when she usurps the position she doesn't deserve (yes, she DOESN'T, because for the most definitive time for the mutantkind she played all kind of games, but not the most important and tough one, that wasn't even a game)."

But that's the whole thing, she didn't try to usurp anyone. Cyclops asked her to lead that team; that she doesn't regard Cyclops as her superior doesn't mean she was trying to usurp him; she doesn't seem to think of anyone as her superior, but that's not because she's trying to be in charge. Storm doesn't court power, she accepts responsibility.

Cyclops asked her to be on his team, and to lead her own, and against her own judgement she tried to do that as she saw was best. When that didn't work out, she looked to the other X-men and Wolverine asked her to help run the school. Where in that does she usurp anything?

Also, it's a pretty subjective thing what the most definitive time for "mutantkind" is. But I don't really see how that era of X-men was more definitive than the mid-80's mutant massacre era; I mean, if we want to talk tragedies, a lot more people died then, and it was actually people that Storm knew, and she was certainly effected by that.

The very valid points being made here is a perfect example, I feel, of what I mean by bad writing and poor plot concepts. Storm has in the past shown herself to be distrustful of leadership at times. Again Im thinking of her forming Xtreme Xmen and going out on her own when Xavier was around. But in terms of her coming in as a leader now, I think it would have been far better if she wasn't written out so-to-speak in the past. Her being married to Black Panther could have been far more interesting than what it turned out to be. As was said she could have been an xmen leader and Queen at the same time. Wakanda could have become another alternative for mutants as well.

The Schism was bad in terms of execution. As someone stated Aaron chose to once again as always make everything about Wolverine. I dont think it should have ever been about Wolverine vs Cyclops. The far more interesting and in my opinion more valid and believable Schism could have been after the discovery of Scott's ordering an Xforce kill squad and Logan running it. Storm of course was written as being against this as was Beast. So if at that point there was a break, that would have been much better. Storm and Beast could have gone out leaving behind Scott and his crew.

As far as her wedding goes, maybe that in itself was meant (or could and should have been written) as kind of a statement to the world and those against mutants saying that "no matter what happens to us, we are determined to lead normal lives and be happy. And now that one of the foremost and well known mutants is marrying the ruler of a nation and an Avenger, it would be prudent to back off of attacking mutants because of the Avengers being their allies and any attack may carry subsequent intercession by the new Queen of Wakanda, thus bringing an individual or an organization into open conflict with the nation of Wakanda and all of its allies." I dont know but I think it could have been spun that way though its hard to argue with the less than ideal timing.

Sounds to me like the OP has never read anything involving Storm besides X-men. Storm was constantly shuned for being a mutant in Wakanda and had multiple altercations with the people who reside there. (Including their Goddess, Bast) so I wouldn't call her experience there comfortable. Just because writers chose to ignore her for the convience of their story doesn't denounce her ability to lead any team of X-men and it definitely doesn't overshadow the part she played. She definitely played her part in Wold's Apart when she saved all their asses from Shadow King, or when she fought against Nimrod in Second Coming which the OP was also wrong about.

Or when she helped Pixie seal a hell hole in reality, or when she helped stop the spread of the vampiric virus that is now placed on Jubilee and the list goes on. To say that Storm played Queen is a bit asinine (especially if you actually read what was taking place at the time). There's a lot of biasness going on around here.

That might be true, but that's not what happened. She was still uncovering it herself when this all went down, and she wasn't deciding anything about it other than to be careful with the information. For all we know, Storm wanted to share that information with all of the X-teams rather than give Cyclops a monopoly on it, which would be a dedication to mutants that extended beyond the divergent factions or self-proclaimed authority of either side.

Not knowing what Cyclops would do with the information, or even what it was herself, she tried to keep it safe. If she had strictly reported to Cyclops, he would get the first crack at how to use the information. Not the X-men, not mutants in general, Cyclops would have been the first to determine the information's function in his plan, before any other X-men or scientists knew about it.

Just because Cyclops has the best of intentions, doesn't mean that he's more entitled to that information than any other mutant hero (most of whom didn't even agree with him at the time), just because he'd decided he was.

I would still stick with my original thought. That while I can understand any questions about her or anyone else's leadership for that matter, I think its a product of the writing, considering who was writing at the time.It's human tendency to question leadership I guess ( we all think we can do something better and hindsight is 20/20 when looking at what a leader has done). I still think she's a good leader. Just because styles are different doesnt mean one is wrong. Maybe some have gotten used to and enjoy the hands on control every aspect of a situation leadership that has been in existence, but i would say most of us dont want to be under an individual like that. I think most people prefer to be entrusted with a task and allowed freedom to handle in the way they see fit and to be creative and complete it on their own without constant oversight and critiquing. Its like a leader is in the bright spot light so we can see all the flaws but as long as your in the shadows and shade nobody sees yours.

@roddy010: I can certainly agree with all of this. I to think people have to realize that the writer didnt want to include her in the story and they acted as if she didnt exist in certain stories, so it is what it is. I call it bad writing especially when many stories became so focused on Cyclops and Emma and of course the hairy canadian, but that was imo poor and limited scope writing, not a reason to knock te character and question whether Storm's a leader. To me it just further points to how poor the writing in the last decade has been.

@oldnightcrawler:
I agree. I think it boils down to it being ok to have differing viewpoints and even different ways of doing things to accomplish a goal. Its actually a bit ridiculous imo for every single mutant to be classified in two groups either as one of Xavier's Xmen or as a bad guy. Not everyone has to follow Cyclops or now even Wolverine, there can be different factions doing different things and it doesnt make any struggle less important to the whole. Plus if Storm was delegated responsibility to run her team, its actually a case of the person Cyclops undermining his own authority and proving incompetency, if he has to micro-manage everything she does.

THANK YOU, I agree completely!

@hawk2916: It's a shame too considering so much potential that was lost at that time. A school in Wakanda would have been awesome to see as well as the many benefits that comes with the most technologically adavanced civiliazation in Marvel. I honestly fekt writers should have jumped on that opportunity to expand the X-men instead of redoing the same stories with the same main focus.

Nice, it's like people try to avoid everything I say just to defend the character they love? I wasn't trying to dis her because I'm some lameass hater, I try to bring you a different POV that might be overlooked because I never saw anyone to pay their attention on that stuff. But if you would be paying attention, you would also see that I did say that "she actually was a part of the Second Coming battle". I think that at least somebody should call her out for all those ambiguities now at the face of her recent main leadership overtaking. Granted, everything that happens is editorially driven, it doesn't mean we don't have to get some clarifications. With an arc everything will be solved and we could move on. Why everything has to be so hard, or either overlooked or justified? Her own POV doesn't matter, I was talking about everyone around her interpretations.

The marriage is a strong massage for their world and their kind, why not to use it more to expand their cause? I already stated that it was supposed to be Storm that led the better written Schism, and that she was supposed to bring an alternative, yet she hasn't, AND while now she tries to take, the way I feel, rabidly that "Gold-team" side leadership, there must be an arc to make this balanced and naturally happening, not just "hey don't you see, I'm as badass as I were in Claremont times and I have that Mohawk to prove this!".

Simple, isn't it?

@adamtrmm: No one is avoiding anything in your post. Your post unjustly critics Storm as an unfit Leader, using mundane examples and completely ignoring what she has brought to the table. You're making it seem like Storm just left and didn't give a s**t about the X-men after her marriage when its clearly not the case. I agree that any good leader should come question but you have to consider every aspect of that leader and not just wht suits your argument.

@roddy010:

Unjustly? I based everything on comics and canon. Selectively, yes, but that's how it happens when one views another, or not? What you call mundane, is exactly what I am trying to deliver right here, with a vision regular folks might have. What can I say, not everyone is a royalty, some can be actually blown up in a bus.

My POV is 100% X-men, since I didn't follow her. And what exactly her motivations have to do with the question, it's not about her opinions or reasons. It's about everybody else's.

@adamtrmm: It would be cool if everything was hashed out in an arc. Especially everything being questioned and discussed here could be brought up. Maybe Nightcrawler could be everybody's confessor lol. By the way who would you have challenge her? Rachel just seemed to come out of nowhere with it. It would be interesting if Colossus were to come at her with all this stuff

@hawk2916:

Don't forget Rachel herself wasn't really there until Reginesis, she pretty much in the same position with Storm, yet they are confirmed to be their leaders? lol we yet have to see what they are planning for Nightcrawler. Colossus is a good choice, but right now he is just a future joiner. Firstly, I would most likely have at least some of NXM have a grudge against her, since many of those accusation revolve around them, as for the senior X-fellas, it would be Rogue, Cannonball and even Psylocke, but Cannonball is where he is, Rogue is "dead", and Psylocke and Storm are BBE seemingly.

People think my point is dismissing her, that's not what I mean. I want her be called out, because that would be natural, and right afterwards she will start to prove herself again, being a wise and grounded leader at least for the beginning.

@adamtrmm: ok first off... it was pretty clear in my post that i was referring to Storm's presence at Utopia for the Security Team issues about being 90% an X-Man. if it wasn't clear... oh well.

The Security Team issues are also pretty clearly explained. ON PANEL by Storm. She wanted all the information before drip feeding it to a questionably motivated Cyclops.

Did i question the value of X-Force? No. Does X-Force's creation raise valid concerns for the X-Men particularly in relation to it secrecy... Absolutely. Would Storm above all others (saving only Beast and Nightcrawler) question the existence of a secret kill-squad? Most definitely. Colossus DID call her out about it. Did you read those issues? Storm shut him down, but he did try.

The decimation stuff is imho irrelevent to Storm. She had NO INVOLVEMENT in the School. She was out there leading the only properly active team of X-Men in the world, and making strides towards mutant/human cooperation whilst the rest were teaching. (Sure they did their own adventuring of course, no question). Storm should not be held accountable for the actions of Purifiers. Nor, considering everyone else of the senior x-men for all intents brushed off the dead kids too. They weren't mutants anymore. Only the other students really seemed to care. They had no interactions with Storm. Why would they hold a grudge against her.

Wakanda was NEVER going to be a new paradise for mutant kind - the wakandans are violently xenophobic at worst, and barely tolerant at best. it's a completely ridiculous point to raise that Mutants could have gone to Wakanda. Everyone knows that wakanda hates outsiders. The people even resented T'Challa marrying any type of outsider, but especially a mutant. Additionally, Storm did not have an easy time "playing queen" (the phrasing of which is a complete disrespect to her). She fought hard for her new country, she tried hard to help people who hated and feared her (like she has always done).

Yes she spent time as a member of the FF... but thats only two teams... She saved the Universe in doing so. Holding the entirety of Infinity (or Eternity, whichever) within her soul.

Why would Rogue call Storm out. She was off with Storm for most of that time too?

Psylocke too... bitch was DEAD during that period. WTF are you talking about?

Cannonball? Again why?

Don't think i think Storm cannot be questioned. But you better believe i don't believe she needs to be held accountable for actions that don't relate to her in any fashion.

@adamtrmm: Yeah Sure. Anyways Storm had a discussion with Cyclop's during Decimation to expand the school in Africa since this was a global crisis at the time and he refused because it didn't apply to his agenda. Resoucrces were also scarce at that time in Wakanda M Day messed it up for more than just mutants.

@devilsgrin81:

The Security Team issues are also pretty clearly explained. ON PANEL by Storm. She wanted all the information before drip feeding it to a questionably motivated Cyclops.

There were no motives on Cyclops' side, she didn't trust him with things he MIGHT do, not that he actually did.

Did i question the value of X-Force? No. Does X-Force's creation raise valid concerns for the X-Men particularly in relation to it secrecy... Absolutely. Would Storm above all others (saving only Beast and Nightcrawler) question the existence of a secret kill-squad? Most definitely. Colossus DID call her out about it. Did you read those issues? Storm shut him down, but he did try.

You did say mistrusting Scott after the X-force assembling was justified.

Yeah, Storm tried to shut him up, and for that she was bitch-slapped by him, did YOU read those issues?

The decimation stuff is imho irrelevent to Storm. She had NO INVOLVEMENT in the School. She was out there leading the only properly active team of X-Men in the world, and making strides towards mutant/human cooperation whilst the rest were teaching. (Sure they did their own adventuring of course, no question). Storm should not be held accountable for the actions of Purifiers. Nor, considering everyone else of the senior x-men for all intents brushed off the dead kids too. They weren't mutants anymore. Only the other students really seemed to care. They had no interactions with Storm. Why would they hold a grudge against her.

They weren't, but they still were X-men responsibility. And this isn't even a context. Why would they hold a grudge against her? MAYBE because she is NOW trying to be the ultimate leader in a convenient period, while not long ago she was pretty "careless", for the most dreadful era?

Wakanda was NEVER going to be a new paradise for mutant kind - the wakandans are violently xenophobic at worst, and barely tolerant at best. it's a completely ridiculous point to raise that Mutants could have gone to Wakanda. Everyone knows that wakanda hates outsiders. The people even resented T'Challa marrying any type of outsider, but especially a mutant. Additionally, Storm did not have an easy time "playing queen" (the phrasing of which is a complete disrespect to her). She fought hard for her new country, she tried hard to help people who hated and feared her (like she has always done).

Never said it should be successful, but it could be interesting, that's it.

Poor 'Ro, the whole nation was so hard on her as their Queen, while muties were playing some lameass survival games. What did you really try to say with this?

Yes she spent time as a member of the FF... but thats only two teams... She saved the Universe in doing so. Holding the entirety of Infinity (or Eternity, whichever) within her soul.

That's what heroes are doing since forever, aren't they?

Why would Rogue call Storm out. She was off with Storm for most of that time too?

Psylocke too... bitch was DEAD during that period. WTF are you talking about?

Cannonball? Again why?

You're partially right about Psylocke, I kinda overlooked she, herself, became relevant only during Utopian era. I just tried to use senior X-men who are not Wolverine and Beast. Rogue was leading Legacy, she was there since MC. And Cannonball co-led a field-team since Nation X I think, to prove himself a valuable leader, it could be interesting if he would've questioned her actually. Like I said, I want to see that progression with Cannonball and Dani as senior X-leaders, but that's not the case right here.

Dam, right now, you actually opened my eyes, there's absolutely no senior X-man that could question Storm, most of the hypocrites are satisfied with blaming everything on Scott, it's all was his fault.

So yeah, case closed. Mods.

Every leader should be questioned. If not we get a-hole's like Cyclops messing everything up. But Storm has proven herself more times than necessary.

Oh, and I thought it was Scarlet Witch...

actually I addressed all of your points directly, based on the text, and got no response. So, to me it seemed like you were avoiding my points.

@oldnightcrawler:

I don't get how everyone has to debase Storm's decision to get married as though it was all about her wanting to be the Queen of Wakanda. I wasn't a big fan of those stories either, but acting like she was choosing to be a queen over -whatever else- isn't really a fair assessment of what was informing her decision. She wasn't choosing to be a queen, she was choosing to get married; because of who she married, she accepted the responsibility of queen, but that's not what she was choosing.

That her marriage happened around the same time as the bombings is just happenstance. That she was in one story while the X-men were in another without her, at the same time, does not itself make her less of an X-man. That's like saying Beast is less of an X-man for not helping save the X-men from Krakoa, because he was just having too much fun being an Avenger, or asking where Havok and Polaris were during the mutant massacre; there's just no reason to make that connection.

Actually those points about Beast, Polaris and Havok are legitimate if we are discussing that specific eras. Right now for me, in this thread only two eras exist: post-M-day survival jungle that lasted right until the end of AVX 12, and a pretty comfortable Now! era. She wasn't there for most of their survival ordeal, and "Now!" she takes over the leadership mantle - no questions, no context and everyone seem to be totally blacked out avoiding the one true objection - where was she when they needed her, for most of the time? And don't tell me Scott was handling this, because they NEEDED any help there.

When did Storm ever try to be the "unquestioned and absolute leader"? Was it when Xavier made her the leader, even though she still always deferred to his authority? Was it when she just let Cyclops take over her team when Xavier came back from space? Was it when Cyclops took over the school and she deferred to him as head of the X-men? Was it when she supported Cyclops while he was becoming the absolute leader of the SFX-men or Utopia?

I mean, Storm seemed to trust Cyclops and others to lead the team for years whether she was there or not, so it hardly seems like she was on any kind of power trip for leadership so much as it seems like she was just doing what she thought was right regardless of who was in charge. Which isn't the same thing.

Those times weren't definitive for their kind, and like I said before, there just two eras that matter right now. Everything she did before is tarnished by the darkness of Decimation, and if she feels so responsible for the X-men like it looks she is right "Now!", where was her radiance to bring some light into that dark times that where avoided NOT thanks to her.

She tries to be the unquestioned and absolute leader right "Now!".

I'm not going to try to justify that what Storm did in that situation, but I will say that Cyclops had given her plenty of reasons to not trust him.

Given that she knew Cyclops' agenda was not really in line with hers, or most of the other X-men's, based on the things he had kept hidden from them and the consequences of his leadership, I can see how Storm would feel a responsibility to make sure of what she had before she turned it over to however Cyclops would use the discovery. And even if it was as petty as secrets aren't so fun when their secrets, it still at least seems fair.

But that's the whole thing, she didn't try to usurp anyone. Cyclops asked her to lead that team; that she doesn't regard Cyclops as her superior doesn't mean she was trying to usurp him; she doesn't seem to think of anyone as her superior, but that's not because she's trying to be in charge. Storm doesn't court power, she accepts responsibility.

Like I said I was OK with most of this arc, it was good written and balanced with another POV's of Colossus, Domino and Magik. We can argue about their final decision that led nowhere in the end, thanks to her judgement actually and fanatical avoidance of updating Cyclops :) Or you have another opinion?

Cyclops asked her to be on his team, and to lead her own, and against her own judgement she tried to do that as she saw was best. When that didn't work out, she looked to the other X-men and Wolverine asked her to help run the school. Where in that does she usurp anything?

Also, it's a pretty subjective thing what the most definitive time for "mutantkind" is. But I don't really see how that era of X-men was more definitive than the mid-80's mutant massacre era; I mean, if we want to talk tragedies, a lot more people died then, and it was actually people that Storm knew, and she was certainly effected by that.

That's interesting, so you don't consider no more mutant children, and every death that determines the whole new demographic picture of a hundred and a half that cannot be increased, ONLY decreased, as the most definitive era for mutantkind?

Anyway the reason why I didn't address all of that is the same I already listed before, like everyone else, you try to justify her own reasons of why, how and what, when this thread isn't about her perceptions, "it's about everybody else's".

Really? In which comic books did this happen?

@roddy010 said:

Sounds to me like the OP has never read anything involving Storm besides X-men. Storm was constantly shuned for being a mutant in Wakanda and had multiple altercations with the people who reside there. (Including their Goddess, Bast) so I wouldn't call her experience there comfortable. Just because writers chose to ignore her for the convience of their story doesn't denounce her ability to lead any team of X-men and it definitely doesn't overshadow the part she played. She definitely played her part in Wold's Apart when she saved all their asses from Shadow King, or when she fought against Nimrod in Second Coming which the OP was also wrong about.

Or when she helped Pixie seal a hell hole in reality, or when she helped stop the spread of the vampiric virus that is now placed on Jubilee and the list goes on. To say that Storm played Queen is a bit asinine (especially if you actually read what was taking place at the time). There's a lot of biasness going on around here.

Quoting the 3 of you for the ACTUAL truth. Something that the OP clearly lacks.

@adamtrmm:

"Actually those points about Beast, Polaris and Havok are legitimate if we are discussing that specific eras. Right now for me, in this thread only two eras exist: post-M-day survival jungle that lasted right until the end of AVX 12, and a pretty comfortable Now! era. She wasn't there for most of their survival ordeal, and "Now!" she takes over the leadership mantle - no questions, no context and everyone seem to be totally blacked out avoiding the one true objection - where was she when they needed her, for most of the time? And don't tell me Scott was handling this, because they NEEDED any help there."

But you know the answer to that question, she was in another story. I don't get how that's a criticism of her character. All of the X-men have left to have their own adventures at various times, I just don't see what makes her not being around during this period any different.

In every case where Storm has been leader, including now, it was because she was asked to do so and she did. If the X-men needed her so much during the decimation-Utopia era, you could just as easily ask why didn't anyone ask her to come back?

"Those times weren't definitive for their kind, and like I said before, there just two eras that matter right now. Everything she did before is tarnished by the darkness of Decimation, and if she feels so responsible for the X-men like it looks she is right "Now!", where was her radiance to bring some light into that dark times that where avoided NOT thanks to her.

She tries to be the unquestioned and absolute leader right "Now!"."

How? Can you at least give me an example, from the text, of when and how Storm has done this, because if she has, I haven't seen it.

Again, she's the leader now, and every other time, because she was asked to lead and people followed her. That she accepts that responsibility when asked doesn't mean that she's looking to be "the unquestioned and absolute leader".

And, I don't know how I'm supposed to address these issues if you won't accept any of my examples from the actual stories.

"That's interesting, so you don't consider no more mutant children, and every death that determines the whole new demographic picture of a hundred and a half that cannot be increased, ONLY decreased, as the most definitive era for mutantkind"

I just don't find it any more definitive than several other eras which you refuse to acknowledge as being equally relevant to how the characters in the story would perceive Storm.

"Anyway the reason why I didn't address all of that is the same I already listed before, like everyone else, you try to justify her own reasons of why, how and what, when this thread isn't about her perceptions, "it's about everybody else's"."

I'm not saying that I'm not trying to justify her, but I'm using relevant examples from the text which you refuse to acknowledge. You're answering my questions, both actual and hyperbolic, with your own opinions and no examples, when you answer them at all.

I mean, you can just dismiss my examples as irrelevant, but you haven't countered them with any examples of your own to explain why they aren't relevant. If this thread is about everyone else's perceptions of Storm, why do mine hold less weight than yours?

What I'm saying is Storm's control of the information is the exact same thing. So she decides not to tell Cyclops yet...fine. But by not including the others with her in that decision, she possess all the power over the information. She decides who knows what when.

We can assume she was going to eventually inform Cyclops, or all the X-Teams or the Avengers even but we don't know for sure. All we know for sure is Storm made the decision of who not to give the information too at that point in time, and didn't inform her team of that. She left them under the assumption that they were working with the others when the buck stopped at Storm, and whether she's earned the right as a leader or chose to exercise control over the situation she eliminated the opportunity for anyone to question her. And if Colossus hadnt called her out we don't know how long it would have continued for.

And here we go again:

@oldnightcrawler:

But you know the answer to that question, she was in another story. I don't get how that's a criticism of her character. All of the X-men have left to have their own adventures at various times, I just don't see what makes her not being around during this period any different.

In every case where Storm has been leader, including now, it was because she was asked to do so and she did. If the X-men needed her so much during the decimation-Utopia era, you could just as easily ask why didn't anyone ask her to come back?

That is 100% OK to be in another story, what is not OK is anyone's acceptance of her leadership that comes in an aftermath. But you know what? I just realized - there's no one that could really question her, I just remembered that the whole JGCircus has no credibility in this part as well, now without Rogue, Cannonball and arguably Dani Moonstar (I know she wasn't among of them, but she damn should be!), this whole part of the X-men is one big mess to which I even find harder to relate to from day to day.

I don't remember any allusion of Storm being asked, she just took this mantle, because no one else had, which could be OK as well, after some clarification. That point of mine is selectively overlooked because some prefer to defend their "precious".

How? Can you at least give me an example, from the text, of when and how Storm has done this, because if she has, I haven't seen it.

Again, she's the leader now, and every other time, because she was asked to lead and people followed her. That she accepts that responsibility when asked doesn't mean that she's looking to be "the unquestioned and absolute leader".

And, I don't know how I'm supposed to address these issues if you won't accept any of my examples from the actual stories.

When Rachel questioned her the first time, the exact quote was: "Who died and made you leader of the X-men?" avoiding the whole very interesting dispute based over Karima's deal and Storm's arrogance, she answered "Someone has to be." and then that BOTA issue where she told Kitty "You were ordered to stay...." I mean come on, that's exactly the way she's been written recently.

I just don't find it any more definitive than several other eras which you refuse to acknowledge as being equally relevant to how the characters in the story would perceive Storm.

I don't see or find equivalency to this, only terribly handled Genoshan Genocide, which is out of context, because it was so damn awfully handled.

I'm not saying that I'm not trying to justify her, but I'm using relevant examples from the text which you refuse to acknowledge. You're answering my questions, both actual and hyperbolic, with your own opinions and no examples, when you answer them at all.

I mean, you can just dismiss my examples as irrelevant, but you haven't countered them with any examples of your own to explain why they aren't relevant. If this thread is about everyone else's perceptions of Storm, why do mine hold less weight than yours?

So her being out of that X-era for most of the time doing everything that is not X-men, the Nimrod incident during her wedding, IIRC accidental participation in SC battle, unlike yours, are all non-text examples?

So you accuse me with things you do yourself, and your perception is still not IN-universe, or you have your own 616 protege? Tell me about him, I think I might follow.

-------------------------------

And now I noticed, that unlike most of the posters right here, more than 2/3 of voters actually agree with me. Nice, I thought that's me against everyone else.

House of M The Day After

@adamtrmm: we're reached a good point in our particular part of this discussion (i've enjoyed the debate truly :) )

I have only the Queen part to raise again. The reason i brought it up. And made it clearer how she was perceived in Wakanda. Her position, though exalted, was not even remotely idyllic as you implied in you original post. The difficulty of her position meant the suggested School there would have been very hard to make happen.

Rogue leading Legacy WAY WAY after decimation gives her absolutely no legs to stand on calling Storm out for her absence during the massacre. But we've agreed on this, there are no senior X-Men in any position to question Storm's authority. We might, but none of them can. Even Cannonball... he's actually one of the younger x-men most likely to question, but i doubt Storm would be someone he'd argue with. Their interactions have always been very much the Leader and the Student-Leader... As much of the Cyclops boyscout (the planning and preparation part), the Cable job-done attitude, the Xavier wisdom, Storm's aura of authority and ability to deliver orders were lessons Sam has learned quite well. His leadership lessons, to bring out his own innate talent for it, have been extremely well rounded.

@koays:

Frankly given her mandate as Chief of Security for Utopia, Storm didn't have to answer to Cyclops on a micro-management level. Do we not recall her all-but demanding a free reign from Scott before she accepted the responsibility? Her position was one that would require HER to manage the secrets and the potential threats to Utopia's sovereignty and safety. This is where we see the Storm/Psylocke bond coming into full effect.

The proto-mutant issue was too fraught with potential for disaster. Too many cooks, etc... With too many people knowing about the situation, resolving the issue would have been far harder. The Colossus/Storm thing was interesting. But it served only to highlight Peter's limitations in understanding the bigger picture, and for that matter his role in the x-men. He is a tank. Nothing more. He is not required to think... coz he's not the brightest. he should be following orders... he does it so well, why would or should he suddenly question Storm - one of his oldest and dearest friends. I found that actually kind of strange.

@adamtrmm:

"I don't remember any allusion of Storm being asked, she just took this mantle, because no one else had, which could be OK as well, after some clarification. ."

Well, Wolverine asked her to be Headmaster with him in Wolverine & the X-Men #24, a title he had adopted himself when he accepted the responsibility of everyone following him. This may be conjecture, but it sort of felt like him saying that if everyone followed him, they should follow her too, since he would follow her and trust her to lead.

That may not be the same thing as what Rachel said about their squad specifically, but given what Wolverine had said, and that he seemed to be in charge, and that people had been following her lead, you can see why she -or anyone- would assume that she was in fact in charge, and had been asked to be by someone who was.

"When Rachel questioned her the first time, the exact quote was: "Who died and made you leader of the X-men?" avoiding the whole very interesting dispute based over Karima's deal and Storm's arrogance, she answered "Someone has to be." and then that BOTA issue where she told Kitty "You were ordered to stay...." I mean come on, that's exactly the way she's been written recently."

See, that I see as a separate criticism from what you were saying, but I do agree; even in the ways she's right, she still just comes off as arrogant. Especially the way she was written in BotA. And, yeah, in a way that's similar to her attitude with the recon team, so it serves your point about that. Where I can see how the proto-mutant situation justified her actions more, her feeling like she has to prove she's in charge with Rachel starts to re-contextualize that behavior as part of a larger pattern.

That in itself would a valid criticism of Storm's leadership style, I just don't know that that one character flaw in itself is enough justification for her to not be the leader of the team.

"I don't see or find equivalency to this, only terribly handled Genoshan Genocide, which is out of context, because it was so damn awfully handled."

Sure, but I'm not saying that you do or that you should see it as equivalent, I'm just saying that that's a subjective thing, and I don't see it that way. For me, a few dozen innocent kids getting murdered is bad, yeah, but it's not worse than lots of other things that have happened, like the mutant massacre or the original Genosha story, so I don't see it as especially definitive myself.

Even the Decimation was kind of tame. A bunch of characters that no one was using lost their powers. Maybe if they had had Cyclops or some other main character lose their power, it might have actually made them seem like they were at some actual disadvantage; but some characters were actually glad to lose their powers, and some became more interesting, stronger characters because of it. At least Richter and Jubilee. Most X-men just floated above it all really, but Storm would have at least understood what those mutants were going through.

"So her being out of that X-era for most of the time doing everything that is not X-men, the Nimrod incident during her wedding, IIRCaccidental participation in SC battle, unlike yours, are all non-text examples?

I just don't understand how that's a example of a criticism of her leadership. Your criticism seems to stem from the idea that because she was absent when bad things were happening to the X-men, her authority to lead should be in question; as if her being a world ambassador, political figure, and X-man all at the same time somehow diminishes her as a leader or is of no benefit to "mutantkind", which just makes no sense to me.

"So you accuse me with things you do yourself, and your perception is still not IN-universe, or you have your own 616 protege? Tell me about him, I think I might follow."

If I do that, I'm sorry, because it's really frustrating.

And if my perception doesn't count, then what of the other characters? As far as we've seen, most of the X-men are fine with following Storm. Even Rachel is still following her, even if it's just to be on the team. The only X-men we've seen really have a problem with her to that extent are Cyclops, Kitty, and Colossus. Not that that's nobody, but you become the leader by people following you, and most of the X-men still follow Storm.

@roddy010:

Tnx, must've overlooked.

@devilsgrin81:

we're reached a good point in our particular part of this discussion (i've enjoyed the debate truly :) )

Yep, it got intense at some point lol

I have only the Queen part to raise again. The reason i brought it up. And made it clearer how she was perceived in Wakanda. Her position, though exalted, was not even remotely idyllic as you implied in you original post. The difficulty of her position meant the suggested School there would have been very hard to make happen.

I might have exaggerated, but that's the POV I think people might have had. But like Roddy said already, it was addressed, so this case kinda solved.

Rogue leading Legacy WAY WAY after decimation gives her absolutely no legs to stand on calling Storm out for her absence during the massacre. But we've agreed on this, there are no senior X-Men in any position to question Storm's authority. We might, but none of them can. Even Cannonball... he's actually one of the younger x-men most likely to question, but i doubt Storm would be someone he'd argue with. Their interactions have always been very much the Leader and the Student-Leader... As much of the Cyclops boyscout (the planning and preparation part), the Cable job-done attitude, the Xavier wisdom, Storm's aura of authority and ability to deliver orders were lessons Sam has learned quite well. His leadership lessons, to bring out his own innate talent for it, have been extremely well rounded.

Of course it is, Rogue was doing a good job, can't say the stories were that good, but they weren't purposeless.

Actually, the whole Cannonball/Dani thing I'm raising so much, could be their way and totally approval into the X-seniority IMO :) Storm might have taught him some tricks, but questioning your mentor, the way I see it, also indicates one has grown to make their own calls and judgement, which should make her proud btw ;)

Frankly given her mandate as Chief of Security for Utopia, Storm didn't have to answer to Cyclops on a micro-management level. Do we not recall her all-but demanding a free reign from Scott before she accepted the responsibility? Her position was one that would require HER to manage the secrets and the potential threats to Utopia's sovereignty and safety. This is where we see the Storm/Psylocke bond coming into full effect.

No, he required her to be his moral indicator, to tell him he has gone to far if he will.

The proto-mutant issue was too fraught with potential for disaster. Too many cooks, etc... With too many people knowing about the situation, resolving the issue would have been far harder. The Colossus/Storm thing was interesting. But it served only to highlight Peter's limitations in understanding the bigger picture, and for that matter his role in the x-men. He is a tank. Nothing more. He is not required to think... coz he's not the brightest. he should be following orders... he does it so well, why would or should he suddenly question Storm - one of his oldest and dearest friends. I found that actually kind of strange.

Nothing of what you say is confirmed or even supported by the story, because she had to erase that sample in the end just to secure it, cause she couldn't handle this herself, and at least partially, Colossus was right, for the one "who isn't required to think" cause "he's not the brightest". Even when he agreed with, she continued to make wrong "judgements" and he told it in her face... Well, and not only this :)

He isn't a tank, that was one of the points.

@oldnightcrawler:

Well, Wolverine asked her to be Headmaster with him in Wolverine & the X-Men #24, a title he had adopted himself when he accepted the responsibility of everyone following him. This may be conjecture, but it sort of felt like him saying that if everyone followed him, they should follow her too, since he would follow her and trust her to lead.

That may not be the same thing as what Rachel said about their squad specifically, but given what Wolverine had said, and that he seemed to be in charge, and that people had been following her lead, you can see why she -or anyone- would assume that she was in fact in charge, and had been asked to be by someone who was.

Wolverine isn't "the X-men", unlike Aaron wants us to believe. And like I said already, I don't even mind her in that position, just some major clarifications.

See, that I see as a separate criticism from what you were saying, but I do agree; even in the ways she's right, she still just comes off as arrogant. Especially the way she was written in BotA. And, yeah, in a way that's similar to her attitude with the recon team, so it serves your point about that. Where I can see how the proto-mutant situation justified her actions more, her feeling like she has to prove she's in charge with Rachel starts to re-contextualize that behavior as part of a larger pattern.

That in itself would a valid criticism of Storm's leadership style, I just don't know that that one character flaw in itself is enough justification for her to not be the leader of the team.

Again, that's all are good points, but we still miss the main aspect right here - "Who died and made her leader of the X-men" means, she has to prove herself again, and I think it would be natural if the question would be phrased a little differently, something more like "Where were you all most of the time we were so desperate for field-leaders and firepower, to now claim to be leader of the X-men?"

Sure, but I'm not saying that you do or that you should see it as equivalent, I'm just saying that that's a subjective thing, and I don't see it that way. For me, a few dozen innocent kids getting murdered is bad, yeah, but it's not worse than lots of other things that have happened, like the mutant massacre or the original Genosha story, so I don't see it as especially definitive myself.

Even the Decimation was kind of tame. A bunch of characters that no one was using lost their powers. Maybe if they had had Cyclops or some other main character lose their power, it might have actually made them seem like they were at some actual disadvantage; but some characters were actually glad to lose their powers, and some became more interesting, stronger characters because of it. At least Richter and Jubilee. Most X-men just floated above it all really, but Storm would have at least understood what those mutants were going through.

It was because they, all mutants, were supposed to cease to exist, unless someone took an action and changed the course of history.

I do agree that Decimation should be written much more devastatingly, btw K/Y intended to kill off more characters, even senior X-men, but the were stopped editorially, blame all on them! lol Characters that were glad to lose their powers was one of the best parts of Decimation, to show how multifarious the mutant metaphor is, I wish they'd do more.

The problem with Storm, I don't really recall her being torn between her old and new worlds, it felt like "I choose the better life", and that's my main problem.

I just don't understand how that's a example of a criticism of her leadership. Your criticism seems to stem from the idea that because she was absent when bad things were happening to the X-men, her authority to lead should be in question; as if her being a world ambassador, political figure, and X-man all at the same time somehow diminishes her as a leader or is of no benefit to "mutantkind", which just makes no sense to me.

Yes, she was absent for these essential times, so she has to prove herself again before the people, I could give you an army example, but I guess it wouldn't be 100% understandable. I don't know why can't you see this.

If I do that, I'm sorry, because it's really frustrating.

And if my perception doesn't count, then what of the other characters? As far as we've seen, most of the X-men are fine with following Storm. Even Rachel is still following her, even if it's just to be on the team. The only X-men we've seen really have a problem with her to that extent are Cyclops, Kitty, and Colossus. Not that that's nobody, but you become the leader by people following you, and most of the X-men still follow Storm.

It's all good.

They're fine because writers are restoring her X-glory, that was diminished by the Decimation era (interesting, why?). Rachel already told her she won't stop question her whenever she feels so, thanks to Wood.

Like I said the real problem, most of the JGC aren't even in the position to demand answers, only the kids that should just leave that Circus, and knowing me you also know what are the exact kids I'm talking about =P

@devilsgrin81: "The proto-mutant issue was too fraught with potential for disaster. Too many cooks, etc... With too many people knowing about the situation, resolving the issue would have been far harder. The Colossus/Storm thing was interesting. But it served only to highlight Peter's limitations in understanding the bigger picture, and for that matter his role in the x-men. He is a tank. Nothing more. He is not required to think... coz he's not the brightest. he should be following orders... he does it so well, why would or should he suddenly question Storm - one of his oldest and dearest friends. I found that actually kind of strange."

Wow, you really don't get him. He's more intelligent than most people give him credit for, he just keeps it to himself most of the time instead of shooting his mouth off like so many others. The confrontation with Storm wasn't sudden, it was building up over a long time and many issues. He's like that, it takes him time to doubt someone he viewed as a friend and probably still does in a way. Not to mention, he was still possessed by Cytorak(sp?) at this point and was having issues controlling his emotions. I'd say that's why he actually said anything to her at all and this after she had blatantly refused his counsel, not that any of what he said was untrue. This was after Piotr himself had been deceived over and over by those close to him, I can see why he should view her rejection of his advice to tell Scott and why as another betrayal. She's just another liar and deceiver to him at that moment and when she's decided to make a decision that will affect the entire mutant race while ignoring his plea to share it with Scott, I can fully understand why he questions her and why he disagrees with her. She's a petty tyrant at that moment and it's not the military, he doesn't have to do what she says.

Which is my main problem with leaders who just tell people what to do, especially after losing their trust. They're not leaders at that point, they're dictators. The point of the x-men is that it's voluntary, you can't make them follow you, you can't make them do what you say, they need to want to and in this regard, she failed spectacularly.

I really don't remember that. If he word for word gave her complete autonomy before she took the role, and not just her saying she needed it after then it's a completely different ball game. But otherwise we haven't even begun to argue the safety issue of her keeping the proto-mutant information secret while dealing with a threat that could very easily have been directed at Utopia once they saw that she was involved. And then no one on Utopia would have a clue why a giant proto-mutant is rising out of the sea to attack them.

Being in charge of security doesn't just mean your the only one who handles potential dangers or decides how their handled. It means you AND the leader work together. If you need to keep secrets ok, but if the issue could backfire on Utopia what then?

storm has had many opportunities to step up to the plate. im not saying she is unworthy of her position but storm has always let Scott have first say. and for that i blame her for diminishing her own voice. storm fell victim to cyclop's shadow same as jean grey & emma frost. only difference is she his woman. storm left the team and formed her own team came back after xorn/magneto destroyed NYC then formed her own team again only to be brought back under cyclops wing. going all the way back to the days when she was the leader of the morlocks it has been shown that storm doesnt want to be the overall leader. she is a good field leader. she will always be (until she shows differently) the second in command overall. first she was doing it under cyclops and now she is doing it under wolverine. does she lead her own team.... yes but as of right now wolverine has final say same with cyclops back in the day. STEP IT UP STORM>>>>> SHOW US UR TRUE LEADER QUALITIES

@adamtrmm:

"Wolverine isn't "the X-men", unlike Aaron wants us to believe. And like I said already, I don't even mind her in that position, just some major clarifications"

You asked who had asked her to lead, and Wolverine was the one who asked her, that's all.

And though I wasn't a fan of Wolverine being in a leadership position, or Aaron's run overall, something Aaron did right was depict Wolverine as someone who only lead because he had to: not because he wanted to be in charge or thought he was any good at it, but because he wanted the X-men to have an option that wasn't Cyclops'.

Whether or not he was any good at it or actually spoke for the rest of the team, he was the one they were following, so he was leading them until Storm came back. If anyone had the authority to make Storm the leader, at that time, it was him, and that's what he did.

(And just in case we have to get into who made him the leader: it was most of the other X-men at the time, by choosing to go to his school, and even Xavier seemed pleased that he had done so. If that doesn't count, I don't know what does.)

"Again, that's all are good points, but we still miss the main aspect right here - (1)"Who died and made her leader of the X-men" means, she has to prove herself again, and I think it would be natural if the question would be phrased a little differently, something more like (2)"Where were you all most of the time we were so desperate for field-leaders and firepower, to now claim to be leader of the X-men?"

To the second question, I think it's worth noting that at this supposedly desperate time, the X-men had more members (so, more firepower and more leadership) than at almost any time prior. So they didn't really seem that desperate in that regard.

And again, she didn't really "claim" leadership so much as accept it when it was asked of her.

And that question would have sounded pretty weird coming from Rachel, who's spent far less time actually with the team and has never been the leader herself. It may have still been a point worth bringing up, but her bringing it up that way would have not have had as much impact as if, say, Surge or Hellion or Kitty had brought it up.

I think the first question, which is what Rachel actually said ("Who died and made you leader of the X-men?"), may have itself raised a valid point about Rachel's criticisms of Storm. That said though, it did seem in pretty poor taste considering that the man who had first made her leader of the X-men had, in fact, recently died.

It could even be inferred that that was Rachel's real criticism: not that Storm shouldn't be in charge, so much as she should remember why she's in charge, ie, how would Xavier have felt about her being so ready to kill a teammate. Of course, this is all conjecture; but I do like the way that issue is written overall. The more I read those scenes, the more different implications I find.. it's actually meatier than it seems..

"It was because they, all mutants, were supposed to cease to exist, unless someone took an action and changed the course of history."

Well, not cease to exist, just cease to be mutants. I think there's a word of difference there. I think a few mutants died from it, but most just became like everyone else. Sucks for them, but hardly a tragedy in the general sense.

"The problem with Storm, I don't really recall her being torn between her old and new worlds, it felt like "I choose the better life", and that's my main problem."

You mean your problem with Storm. Again, from my perspective, even if her decision was that simple, I don't see that as a problem in itself, personally. Also, I don't see that it was that simple.

"Yes, she was absent for these essential times, so she has to prove herself again before the people, I could give you an army example, but I guess it wouldn't be 100% understandable. I don't know why can't you see this"

I get that she has to prove herself to some, but I don't get why. it's not like she wasn't still being an X-man and a superhero and a leader during that time; it's not like she retired, she was just doing other things.

"They're fine because writers are restoring her X-glory, that was diminished by the Decimation era (interesting,why?).

Rachel already told her she won't stop question her whenever she feels so, thanks to Wood.

Like I said the real problem, most of the JGC aren't even in the position to demand answers, only the kids that should just leave that Circus, and knowing me you also know what are the exact kids I'm talking about =P

Storm's glory as an X-man was mostly diminished by being one of the crowd as opposed to a more central character. There were so many X-men on what was essentially one big team that lots of characters were mostly in the background most of the time. By her moving onto other things it created the opportunity for other leaders (Emma, Rogue, Moonstar, Surge, etc) to step up.

And seeing any of those characters step up again would be just as interesting to me, but that doesn't mean that Storm shouldn't step up when called. I really like the position that Storm's in right now, and I agree that Rachel being her foil on the team is a great dynamic for both of them.

@oldnightcrawler:

You asked who had asked her to lead, and Wolverine was the one who asked her, that's all.

And though I wasn't a fan of Wolverine being in a leadership position, or Aaron's run overall, something Aaron did right was depict Wolverine as someone who only lead because he had to: not because he wanted to be in charge or thought he was any good at it, but because he wanted the X-men to have an option that wasn't Cyclops'.

Whether or not he was any good at it or actually spoke for the rest of the team, he was the one they were following, so he was leading them until Storm came back. If anyone had the authority to make Storm the leader, at that time, it was him, and that's what he did.

(And just in case we have to get into who made him the leader: it was most of the other X-men at the time, by choosing to go to his school, and even Xavier seemed pleased that he had done so. If that doesn't count, I don't know what does.)

I really don't want to start a dispute around Wolverine here, which has been done to death, but from panel Wolverine can't be questioned the same way Storm can. I mean, it's the same reason why writers haven't put her into that position during Schism, because you know they totally "could". It would be questionable because of her being quarter-time X-man. So it happened to be Wolverine (and it even worse), and people followed him, as an alternative to Scott, we don't know if they really trusted him. So we also don't know if they will trust his judgement in his position handing over. You do realize how voiceless JGC seems to be? It's not that we see so many opinions besides "Summers the villain" from there, talking about quality of our books btw. So, even if Wolverine was the leader, no one made him a mind-dictator. And people are free to think what they think.

To the second question, I think it's worth noting that at this supposedly desperate time, the X-men had more members (so, more firepower and more leadership) than at almost any time prior. So they didn't really seem that desperate in that regard.

And again, she didn't really "claim" leadership so much as accept it when it was asked of her.

And that question would have sounded pretty weird coming from Rachel, who's spent far less time actually with the team and has never been the leader herself. It may have still been a point worth bringing up, but her bringing it up that way would have not have had as much impact as if, say, Surge or Hellion or Kitty had brought it up.

I think the first question, which is what Rachel actually said ("Who died and made you leader of the X-men?"), may have itself raised a valid point about Rachel's criticisms of Storm. That said though, it did seem in pretty poor taste considering that the man who had first made her leader of the X-men had, in fact, recently died.

It could even be inferred that that was Rachel's real criticism: not that Storm shouldn't be in charge, so much as she should remember why she's in charge, ie, how would Xavier have felt about her being so ready to kill a teammate. Of course, this is all conjecture; but I do like the way that issue is written overall. The more I read those scenes, the more different implications I find.. it's actually meatier than it seems..

Really? So that's why Scott needed to use children in Schism...

Just manipulation of words, because she is now, with just maybe Wolvie to ask her. For me it is not enough.

Kitty was also most of the time in space, not that she can be blamed, but she wasn't really part of anything until Age of X. That's the problem with the whole Circus (though she isn't a part of it already). Most of them are not in the position to judge, only New X-men and New Mutants can, which would be more than enough, but the "non-senior" voicelessness in the JGC is overwhelming.

It was a stretch, but it was meaningful statement by Rachel, I think the point was "We have enough leaders already" or just "Unless you're chosen, don't pretend to be one".

Or this.

Well, not cease to exist, just cease to be mutants. I think there's a word of difference there. I think a few mutants died from it, but most just became like everyone else. Sucks for them, but hardly a tragedy in the general sense.

Sometimes for the sake of justifying you just overlooking the main point. The were supposed to CEASE TO EXIST because there was no mutant heirs, no mutant genome and no mutant future. You once asked me, why do I read X-men. Now, if you don't find these aspects important, I want to ask you the exact same question.

You mean your problem with Storm. Again, from my perspective, even if her decision was that simple, I don't see that as a problem in itself, personally. Also, I don't see that it was that simple.

Too bad I'm not in 616, you would see how good I'm in calling in her out lol

That problem has to be brought up by anyone who has a little of self-respect and awareness of his world.

I get that she has to prove herself to some, but I don't get why. it's not like she wasn't still being an X-man and a superhero and a leader during that time; it's not like she retired, she was just doing other things.

Yeah, the more comfortable and easy things, exactly. Talking about priorities of a good leader, she definitely knew what to choose.

Storm's glory as an X-man was mostly diminished by being one of the crowd as opposed to a more central character. There were so many X-men on what was essentially one big team that lots of characters were mostly in the background most of the time. By her moving onto other things it created the opportunity for other leaders (Emma, Rogue, Moonstar, Surge, etc) to step up.

And seeing any of those characters step up again would be just as interesting to me, but that doesn't mean that Storm shouldn't step up when called. I really like the position that Storm's in right now, and I agree that Rachel being her foil on the team is a great dynamic for both of them.

I've already told that all of this whenever it's good or bad writing, is on the writers, but that doesn't mean we don't need in-universe clarifications, that's it.

They want to make Storm that dominant leader again? That's OK, make an arc to clear everything, with questions and accusations and her proving herself again, while gaining trust.

Isn't so hard, is it?

Lol. But really, this is what happens when fans decide to indignantly reach. It cultivates nothing of logical substance while dichotomously enforcing this self-serving ideal of persistent dogmatism.

'Cause really and truly, Storm hasn't done anything wrong or contentious, and i base that on what i've actually read, inferred and subsequently deduced as opposed to the baseless extrapolation which sadly seems to be the OP's and its proponents' stock-in-trade.

Tis' been an interesting debacle of points, but at the end of the day...

By those merits there is no reason to question her. And she really has nothing to answer for as she was not a perpetrator in any of those cases.

The X-Men didn't know Nimrod was back at all before he crashed into Forge's workshop, quite a few of them even refused to believe it was possible when someone suspected that it was the case. Storm postponing her wedding to show sympathy... if her groom hadn't been Black Panther and the guestlist didn't include a ton of difficult people, sure.

As for leadership... it really has nothing to do with how many friends and loved ones you've buried. If that was the case Wolverine would be king of the world.