@oldnightcrawler: Why do you like Bendis' take?

On Cyclops or on his X-men books in general?

His X-Men books in general.

@tdk_1997: To be fair, it's not that Bendis is my favorite writer or anything like that, I just don't think he's as bad as his detractors would make him out to be.

I know some people don't like his dialogue, for example, but I have little issue with that. I generally enjoy his dialogue, and actually think of it as one of his most entertaining strengths. It's true that he writes dialogue in a very stylized way (and with a particular sense of humor), one that seems more informed by popular media like television or Hollywood movies than by say, traditional comicbook dialogue, but that's a trend we've seen across the genre, and, after reading books where it seems to work, I don't really notice it much. It also helps in this regard that I seem to share his sense of humor.

I will concede that he's much better at writing some characters than others, but I do still think that he tries to play to the strengths of the characters he does write, and would mostly disagree with the notion that he writes any character poorly; even if their dialogue may seem a bit stylized, .the actual point they're making or thing they're doing rarely actually seems out of character.

I also think he has a certain economy of style that rarely gets recognized. All-new X-men is a pretty good example of this, I think. It could be argued that after 12 issues, none of the X-men have really done anything, and, in a way, that's true. Certainly there is a president for the X-men catching wind of some evil mutants doing some crime, and catch up to them in either that issue or the next; but I don't see that as the real focus of this book. Instead of thinking about what the X-men have accomplished in 12 issues, I'm noticing what the book itself has done in that time.

As I understand it, this book is supposed to serve as an introduction to newer readers. In those 12 issues, we're introduced to

• the current leaders and key characters of the X-men (Cyclops, Emma, Kitty, Wolverine, Storm, Beast, Iceman, and Magneto) of whom we learn at least a basic understanding of as characters, as well as their primary motivations, recent history, and relationships to each other.
• the original X-men members, a basic understanding of (Bendis' version) of their personalities and their relationships to each other, and their perspective on the X-men in the present.
• a crash course in classic X-men history,
• and more recent X-men history.
• Cyclops' outlaw X-men breaking Emma out of jail.
• the formation of Cyclops' new team and school.
• three completely new characters.
• many of the X-men's classic enemies (Magneto, Mystique, Sabertooth, Mastermind, the Sentinels, the Phoenix force, Emma I guess..)
• the formation of Mystique's (sweet) new Brotherhood, and the chaos they provide.
• some nice moments establishing some of the more interesting members of the X-men's supporting cast like Quire or the Cuckoos.
• the X-men's relationship to the greater marvel universe by way of the Avengers, as well as the legacy they've helped inspire in the Uncanny Avengers.
• and, in my opinion, some genuinely entertaining situations and dialogue (it's actually one of the few X-men books that really makes me laugh out loud).

While I can admit that some of these themes seem pretty retread, I have to acknowledge that that is as much to do with my own extensive experience with the characters. But, because of that same thing, I do feel as qualified as anyone to recognize the accuracy of the character work being reintroduced here, and I personally have enjoyed that much of it.

And, though I don't think art should have to be a quantifiable thing, I do think this book has covered enough ground to (so far) feel worthwhile.

Speaking of the art, I do think that some parts of Bendis' plots and pacing weigh pretty heavily on the quality of artists he has to work with, but given the quality of art that's being produced for this book, I certainly can't fault him for wanting to take advantage of that.

In general, the book sort of reminds me of Avengers Forever, which was one of the first Avengers books I read, in that, while the characters themselves seem to accomplish very little, we're being introduced to several different characters and themes from different time periods (not just the O5 and the contemporary X-men, but also much of the history that has gone on in between), and a sense of both a lot of classic character interaction, as well as a real sense of both the width and depth of the world those characters inhabit. Like I say, it's an economy of style.

I would like to see some other characters get a spot light other than wolverine and/or cyclops

Yes, but really... Who is Cyclops when he is not shoved down our throats 24/7? He is a completely forgettable character, but I don't think we will be getting rid of him until marvel is completely rid of biased Cyclops fanboys.

@oldnightcrawler: Bendis' dialogue is one of the things that people most hate about him but I don't mind it much either.I have a problem with it only when he is getting really sloppy and just right stupid bs.Like in the end of his Avengers run.It just seemed like he didn't care much about what are the characters going to say.

The biggest problem that I have with All-New X-Men is that the characters indeed haven't done a single meaningful thing.It just brought back the O5 and they seem to hang on and we see that there are some problems with them and from time to time we see Cyclops or Mystique,Sabretooth and Lady Mastermind doing stuff.It looks idiotic and I can't like it.

I do agree that there has been far too much of Cyclops as the main focus in the last few years but that seems to be under control now. Pre Schism/AvX it was all Cyclops all the time and everyone else a member of the supporting cast. Now asside from Uncanny X-Men he is in th background and we don't see much of him and he is becoming more effective, whatever you might think about how his character has changed over the last few years. Now if only they could do the same for Wolverine, other characters could now get some development, wishful thinking I know.

@tdk_1997: okay then.

Absolutely.

I actually think that Wolverine is starting to go that way too. He's definitely in way more books than any other marvel character, but, with the exception of his own books (I assume, I don't read them often), he does seem to be becoming more of a supporting or even background character in most of them. I still think he could stand to be in less books, but I read three books that feature him as a regular character, and I like him in all of those.

i think that he should appear in less books because his character is just being overused and they don't do anything creative with him and just use him for sales.

I basically agree. But then it's sort of the same thing as why there's so many X-men books in general; like I said, I read at least 3 books a month that feature Wolverine: Wolverine and the X-men, All-new X-men, and Uncanny Avengers. Now, I like him in all of those books, and I know lots of people don't like those books, but I do. So, if it were up to me, those 3 books would be the only books that I'd care if Wolverine was in and I'd take him out of everything else. But that's if it were up to me, and I'm sure lots of Wolverine fans would be horrified to hear that those were the only books he was in; you see where I'm going with this?

Wolverine and the X-Men is the only one I like from those.It's not anything special but it makes me laugh and it is just a good time.

see, that's kind of my point; Wolverine's become a bit like Batman or something, in so far as everyone likes him in a different way, so there's lots of different ways to use the character that will appeal to different audiences. I do think he's overused, personally, but I'd hate to see him taken out of the books I like him in, and lots of people who read his other books would feel the same.

But there;s the big difference between Logan and Bruce.Batman appears in a lot of books and only people who don't like him complain that he appears in too much titles while Logain appears in a lot of books and his true fans complain about it.Because he is no longer used properly.He became the boy scout of the X-Men and that is always bad for a mutant character.

I'm kind of on the fence, here. On the other hand, Cyclops is going through interesting times right now, and I think he deserves to be in the spotlight because of that. Then again, the stories his interesting situation has generated haven't been all that great.

im annoyed that marvel is even making him a main focus there a reason they made a book called wolverine and the x-men

why would people who don't like him even care?

also, I don't understand what you mean by those last two sentences. Do you mean that he became more responsible or something? because that eventuality was established pretty early on. Check Days of Future Past (1980) for two pretty different versions of the same character in the one (pretty definitive) story.

That was always part of his nature,he seemed not to care but he always cared.I meant that even when he was keeping Jubilee,Kitty Pride or any other girl under his wing he still was that savage Wolverine that always wanted to kill.Now he is no more like that and there is no proper reason for that.The best Wolverine I have seen lately was under Remender in UXF.

@tdk_1997:

Now he is no more like that and there is no proper reason for that.The best Wolverine I have seen lately was under Remender in UXF.

I wouldn't say there is no proper reason for him not be killing because it is an integral part of the character. He may not be as bloodthirsty as he was, but he's developed into a character that is still willing to get his hands dirty so others don't. It really depends on who is writing Wolverine, though. Hopeless in the new UXF has made Wolverine state he doesn't kill anymore because he is a headmaster. but Jason Aaron has made Wolverine willing to kill. He almost did so against Frankenstein in that crappy arc in WATXM when he was prepared to cut him in pieces. Frank Cho made Wolverine slaughter the natives and their gorillas. Christ Yost almost had Logan disembowel Kaine in the first second of their fight because Kaine invaded his school and in turn, hurt his friends and that in turn probably gave Logan the incentive to protect his students. Bendis made Wolverine almost kill the new Cyclops in issue 2 of ANXM.

@god_spawn: When writers these days make Wolverine a killer(which he is) it seems just too forced.They write him in two ways: 1.he will never hurt a single person because now he is a new person and a headmaster and 2.he will kill you because you have done something really stupid and you have ''hurt'' him or his friends.They can't seem to make their mind on how he should be.If he has to be this new person that never kills or if he will kill because you have ate his pie.

I wasn't surprised that Bendis made him into a mindless idiot that all his thoughts are about how to kill Cyke and when he sees him he just jumps to slash off his head.Even though Aaron is doing some sick and stupid stuff in WATX,he seems to be learning the most on how the character should be portrayed and in some of the last issues I really like what he is doing(it is still corny and too funny but still).

@tdk_1997:

The thing is though, most writers are writing him like a killer. As far as Logan abandoning kill all together like Hopeless for example, it isn't consistent with the majority so obviously we should draw the aspects from the more consistently written material. I think how you are putting is a bit extreme. The situations he has been under have just exploited an integral aspect of his character. I know you're just using an analogy, but he isn't going to just slaughter someone over pie. Considering the circumstances ie Kaine invading the school and hurting his friends and saying "I'm gonna kill you, Wolverine" is plenty incentive for the character to act in such a manner. And Bendis didn't make him an idiot for attacking Cyclops. Considering what the real Cyclops did and Wolverine just noticing his smell, he charged at him. In Wolverine's mind, Cyclops killed Xavier, broke out of jail, and is doing God knows what.

And I haven't read any WATXM for a few months. Aaron has turned to trash in that book and anything in it I can't take seriously. It's terribly written and he's just used up whatever nostalgia and humor the book had months ago.

@god_spawn: Of course that he won't kill anybody about a pie but it was just an analogy.The circumstances he was under with Kaine attacking the school were reasonable but such circumstances are sometimes used in an instance and they just seem to be used so that Wolverine can kill.Sometimes really stupid excuses are used for the attack of a villain or something like only for Wolverine to go into his rage mode.Cyclops deserves it currently.He was under the Phoenix Force but he has some guilt about that and dying by the hand of Wolverine will be one of the best things that has happened to the character currently.

Well WATX was really big pile of bs while that Frankenstein's circus arc and I wanted to dump the book but I just wanted to see the Hellfire saga and so far the build up hasn't been anything that big or serious but the book is at least decent again.I liked the Dog arc and the action and humor in it were awesome.

@tdk_1997: I understand the analogy part. I made mention to it in my post. My point is, when they are making him his killer self, they are at least doing so in more manageable reasons than just "he's a killer! RAAAH! *Slash!*". I don't necessarily see it as forced because Logan was introduced as a killer and it has been an integral part of his character since his conception. The whole point of his development was never to make him give up killing, but for him to not always resort to it and to make sure his students never have to do it. He still kills, he's tried it a few times. But he is more of a do as I say, not as I do type deal.

I think the Dog arc started out solid, but was incredibly mediocre once it started unfolding. But to each his own. So if you enjoyed it, I'm not one to judge.

@god_spawn: I have always loved Logan about the fact that he was never afraid to get his hands dirty but at times it just seems forced for me.I really think that he is one of the characters that Bendis doesn't know how to write or handle.

I thought the same thing.It started out as a really promising arc but in the end it was just an average end and it was nothing really good.It could have been better and as always Aaron got sloppy.

@tdk_1997: I think Bendis has his ups and downs with Wolverine. Because of Bendis, we had Wolverine besting Iron Fist in a spar. Because of Bendis, Wolverine was doing quite well in the fight against Ragnarok. Because of Bendis we got to see Wolverine still indulge in his killer aspect, but have his development shine through when he stopped trying to kill O5 Scott Summers.

Yeah, Aaron's pretty bad about that when he does things in the long run. I dropped the book when he tried to make robots measure genitals and Dog came in telling them they could measure his before he attacks. Oh well. At least his Thor is fantastic.

Agreed.

@god_spawn: Indeed he is.His take on Wolverine is either really good and you can see the true Wolverine or he is that useless Canadian guy that only sleeps,drinks beer and does nothing almost.His stories are a hit or a miss.

Aaron's writing is also a hit or miss.His Thor is just brilliant and he got my interest back into the character but when he wants to do something really cool with Wolverine(because he just loves him) he just does something corny but sometimes I think that those are the type of stories he actually likes.

It's always fun to read some people claim Marvel loves Cyclops and are fanboys for him, and then read others say they hate him and are trying to destroy his character.

You do realize that the second half of your comment kind of goes against the first?

A lot of Wolverine dislike in this thread. Smh

He's been underestimated and forgoten for like 30 years now,about goddam time he got some respect.

Yes it needed to change (and seemed to have done so). I am happy that the focus has been better balanced amongst the main X-characters.

I say "No". I would like to see them keep pushing him as the new leader of X-Force. A Scott-led team could make that book relevant again...

The emphasis on Cyclops disrupted the dynamic of the team too much because they're just that- a team. For the X-men's most formative years, Scott was really just the field leader and mostly only under the original 5's reign. It's the same thing with Wolverine, he became famous not by being the star of the show but rather, a component to the X-men that had a specific purpose. This idea that Cyke and Wolverine are THE X-men is an invention of the last 10 years or so, before that they were certainly as popular but they were more tactically placed.

Uh isn't this more then a little dated?

I mean even now, we just had the first Cyclops centered arc of the entire Bendis run.... And there are 3 other books not counting solos...

Shouldn't we be more concerned about the focus of those? I'm perplexed why this was ever relevant given the lack of development characters were receiving across the board at the time of the posting when Aaron had the pen.

Yup this was started by time more than a year ago as one of her usual Cyclops hate threads, it's either Cyclops hate or Emma hate for time. I'd just let it be.

Should Marvel? Yes.

Will they? Hecks no.

Cyclops is the only X-Man the EIC likes and that's pretty much the case for most of the editors as well as Marvel's top creative officer.

When they really rev up the plans to reduce X-Men fandom, Cyclops is pretty much the only X-Men character you're gonna see. And maybe you'll see whatever female X-Man he's banging on occasion.

OIC. nevermind. On my phone it doesn't even say the name of the Original poster for polls....

Such anger and bitterness. Go on, tell us how you feel, Phoenix Egg.

lol, it's funny because it's both bitter and (sadly) kinda true at the same time.