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    X-Men

    Team » X-Men appears in 13410 issues.

    The X-Men are a superhero team of mutants founded by Professor Charles Xavier. They are dedicated to helping fellow mutants and sworn to protect a world that fears and hates them.

    Reactions to Cyclops's and Scarlet Witch's Mistakes

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    herrpfister

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    #1  Edited By herrpfister

    Why was Cyclops so harshly punished for what he did, when Scarlet Witch was forgiven for what she did? Weren't both under the influence of a cosmic entity? They both caused deaths. I feel just because Cyclops killed Xavier he was punished harsher.

    Correct me if I am wrong about anything.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    #2  Edited By oldnightcrawler

    @herrpfister: they were both under the influence of an outside source, but there's two main differences that I see.

    1. Though Cyclops didn't choose to wield the power of the Phoenix Force himself, he had been trying to control it -despite almost everyone else's objections- for his own selfish ends. Whereas the Scarlet Witch was herself being used for someone else's selfish ends, and was thus just as much a victim as any of her victims.

    2. Even under the control of an outside force, the 'Witch didn't herself directly kill anyone, even though some died due to her actions, while in a similar position, Cyclops did directly kill Xavier. I don't think this distinction is as strong as the first, but it's worth noting.

    I do think it's unfair that Cyclops is being blamed more for his actions while possessed than the 'Witch was, but I also think it was unfair of Cyclops to risk the fate of the Earth just so more people would be mutants again.

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    JonSmith

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    they were both under the influence of an outside source, but there's two main differences that I see.

    1. Though Cyclops didn't choose to wield the power of the Phoenix Force himself, he had been trying to control it -despite almost everyone else's objections- for his own selfish ends. Whereas the Scarlet Witch was herself being used for someone else's selfish ends, and was thus just as much a victim as any of her victims.

    ... Selfish? He and the Phoenix Five were working on ending world hunger, provided fresh water to everyone worldwide, clean, free, energy, and even created a tenuous world peace. With Cyclops' guidance, X-Men the world over were helping people on a scale they had never been able to before. And he killed ONE guy after the full force of the Phoenix was forced onto him, which literally EVERYBODY knew no one would be able to handle without going Dark.

    Like you said, the Five didn't choose to wield that power. But it was hoisted upon them, and when the Avengers attacked them for their own mistakes, the Five were blamed for retaliating. THEN, when the Avengers, in FULL knowledge of what they were doing, focused the Force into the Four, then Two, Cyclops and Emma were blamed for losing control, when they were completely fine until the Avengers started poking them with a stick, to quote Reed Richards.

    Frankly, it looks like the Avengers put all the blame on Cyclops and his group solely to cover their own a**es/mistakes.

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    LordMordor

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    Wanda was clearly distraught and repentant over her actions during disassembled and House of M...even though she was not in full control of herself. Basically everything she did during that time frame she regrets

    Scott on the other hand is only half repentant. He profusely regrets killing Xavier and the damaging actions taken as the Phoenix, but he does not regret his efforts to make sure the Phoenix was able to do what he (correctly) believed it had come to do. Because he was proven right about the Phoenix's goals, as he said at the end of AvX "I would do it all over again". He was ok with being called a monster/killer because the main goal of saving the mutant race had been achieved.

    Lately though, both major parties against (Cap, and Logan) him have expressed that they no longer believe he was in control of himself during his time as the Phoenix. And because he was shown to be correct in the Phoenix's goals they don't go after him for the initial battles where he fought to prevent them from taking Hope and stopping the PF.....now their major problem with him, and the reason he receives so much hate from former allies, is his rouge actions as leader of the New Xavier School and his goal of starting a "Mutant Revolution".

    Also worth noting that Wanda vanished for an extended period of time following House of M....while Scott was immediately apprehended. The damage was still fresh when they caught him.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @jonsmith said:

    ... Selfish? He and the Phoenix Five were working on ending world hunger, provided fresh water to everyone worldwide, clean, free, energy, and even created a tenuous world peace. With Cyclops' guidance, X-Men the world over were helping people on a scale they had never been able to before. And he killed ONE guy after the full force of the Phoenix was forced onto him, which literally EVERYBODY knew no one would be able to handle without going Dark.

    Like you said, the Five didn't choose to wield that power. But it was hoisted upon them, and when the Avengers attacked them for their own mistakes, the Five were blamed for retaliating. THEN, when the Avengers, in FULL knowledge of what they were doing, focused the Force into the Four, then Two, Cyclops and Emma were blamed for losing control, when they were completely fine until the Avengers started poking them with a stick, to quote Reed Richards.

    Frankly, it looks like the Avengers put all the blame on Cyclops and his group solely to cover their own a**es/mistakes.

    For anyone outside of Cyclops' inner circle there was never any doubt that the Phoenix would go dark, which it did, which is why everyone was trying to stop him.

    Yes, when he had the power of the Phoenix, he did as much good as he could to show the world that that was what he wanted the power for, but the original reason he went against everyone else's wishes to try to obtain the power in the first place was to re-ignite the mutant X-gene, a decision that both wasn't his to make and was based on a selfish goal.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    Wanda was clearly distraught and repentant over her actions during disassembled and House of M...even though she was not in full control of herself. Basically everything she did during that time frame she regrets

    Scott on the other hand is only half repentant. He profusely regrets killing Xavier and the damaging actions taken as the Phoenix, but he does not regret his efforts to make sure the Phoenix was able to do what he (correctly) believed it had come to do. Because he was proven right about the Phoenix's goals, as he said at the end of AvX "I would do it all over again". He was ok with being called a monster/killer because the main goal of saving the mutant race had been achieved.

    yeah, there's also all this.

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    JonSmith

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    For anyone outside of Cyclops' inner circle there was never any doubt that the Phoenix would go dark, which it did, which is why everyone was trying to stop him.

    Yes, when he had the power of the Phoenix, he did as much good as he could to show the world that that was what he wanted the power for, but the original reason he went against everyone else's wishes to try to obtain the power in the first place was to re-ignite the mutant X-gene, a decision that both wasn't his to make and was based on a selfish goal.

    It went dark because they forced all of it's power into two people. And yeah, they KNEW that would happen. Which makes it all the more stupid they MADE it happen by attacking the Avengers. You remember what started off the whole deal? Namor killing Wakanda. Remember why he did that? The Avengers captured one of the mutants. Reed Richards himself, arguably the smartest man in Marvel, said the Phoenix Five would be fine IF THE AVENGERS JUST LEFT THEM ALONE.

    And yet they persisted, they antagonized, they instigated, they all but forced the Five to retaliate. And then they blamed the mutants for retaliating when it was the Avengers who started THE ENTIRE MESS. Literally EVERY single problem of this entire conflict was the Avengers fault: Why did the Phoenix Five even exist? Because the Avengers decided to ignore Cyclops' plan, despite him having vastly more experience with the entity in question than they do, and in fact ended up going with his plan of training Hope to control it AFTER everything they thought of had failed. Why did the Phoenix Five attack them? Because the Avengers decided to keep poking them with a stick going, "Hey. Hey. HEY. HEY. HEY. You feeling evil yet? You feeling evil yet? You feeling evil yet? We're going to kidnap one of your kids. You feeling evil yet?"

    The ONLY part of this that is truly the X-Men's fault is when Cyclops attacked Cap on the island. And even THAT was justified as Cap telling him to hand over his daughter or he was going to sic the Avengers on him. Without being able to tell him anything about where they were going to take her or do with her. Only that she'd be protected. From a Force that WAS RUNNING THROUGH PLANETS LIKE THE KOOL-AID MAN THROUGH WALLS.

    Regardless, yeah, Cyclops originally wanted to re-ignite the X-gene by training Hope to control it. After his species was wrongfully wiped out by Wanda. And how was saving an entire species from the brink of extinction a selfish goal? That was only there because it'd been BROUGHT there? That's like saying the endangered species act is selfish: How is it wrong to want to save a species?

    Granted, it was Scott's species, but he himself had nothing personally to gain from it: He kept his powers. If he'd lost them and was trying to bring back the mutants in an attempt to get those powers back (though why would he?), sure, I could see how you'd call that selfish. But he wasn't. He was just trying to save his species. You think Cap, or the Avengers would act any differently if humanity was on the line?

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    LordMordor

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    #8  Edited By LordMordor

    The first thing to consider about AvX is that both parties were written to be unreasonable so that the conflict could happen.....Cap showed up on Utopia with a Helicarrier full of Avengers and was demanding to take once of its citizens away. Scott was completely unwilling to accept co-operation and said "mutant problem, we will handle it, bye"

    That whole fiasco could have been solved if the two groups were written to be more reasonable and level headed. And there was doubt that the P5 would go dark....Reed, Hank and T'Challa both notably objected to actions taken against the P5. They had done nothing to fight against at that point. And there had been a previous case of a Host in complete control of the Phoenix, Rachel Grey. The rest of the Avengers assumed everything would go wrong and knew they would need Hope to fight against the P5...so they invade Utopia, attack a room full of children to take her....and then the P5 start going aggro on the....it was a self-fulfilling prophesy. In their efforts to prepare for the X-men going dark, they pushed them into going dark.

    I wouldn't call saving the mutant race from extinction a selfish goal...you can argue the choice wasn't his...but what flat-lined mutant births and de-activated X-genes was a completely unnatural event, the Phoenix was coming to set nature right. You could then argue that it wasn't the Avengers decision to try and stop nature. They were afraid it was coming to destroy...only Scott believed it was coming to revive.

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    Koays

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    @jonsmith said:

    @oldnightcrawler said:

    they were both under the influence of an outside source, but there's two main differences that I see.

    1. Though Cyclops didn't choose to wield the power of the Phoenix Force himself, he had been trying to control it -despite almost everyone else's objections- for his own selfish ends. Whereas the Scarlet Witch was herself being used for someone else's selfish ends, and was thus just as much a victim as any of her victims.

    ... Selfish? He and the Phoenix Five were working on ending world hunger, provided fresh water to everyone worldwide, clean, free, energy, and even created a tenuous world peace. With Cyclops' guidance, X-Men the world over were helping people on a scale they had never been able to before. And he killed ONE guy after the full force of the Phoenix was forced onto him, which literally EVERYBODY knew no one would be able to handle without going Dark.

    Like you said, the Five didn't choose to wield that power. But it was hoisted upon them, and when the Avengers attacked them for their own mistakes, the Five were blamed for retaliating. THEN, when the Avengers, in FULL knowledge of what they were doing, focused the Force into the Four, then Two, Cyclops and Emma were blamed for losing control, when they were completely fine until the Avengers started poking them with a stick, to quote Reed Richards.

    Frankly, it looks like the Avengers put all the blame on Cyclops and his group solely to cover their own a**es/mistakes.

    It is partly this, but it also partly the "I told you so" effect. The Avengers entire motive was that they didn't think the phoenix could be controlled, and end in the end they were right. Yes they forced the results, but in the end they were right about it being dangerous and uncontrollable. By the end of AvX the guy who disagreed with that idea was naked in a crater and the Avengers were standing tall as the winners, and as such there was no one to punish them for there role in escalating the situation to prove their point.

    Basically @herrpfister, the Avengers said from the start that this power is dangerous and people could die and Cyclops disagreed because he thought it was there to bring back mutants. Well if the Avengers were wrong, there's more mutants; if Cyclops was wrong the world is at risk. Both sides were wrong and right in a way, but the consequences of Cyclops' (clear headed) choice to ignore the possible danger is what got him in trouble. I'd go as far to argue that if the X-Men succeeded and Hope got the phoenix but eventually went Dark, they'd still lay the blame on Cyclops for taking the risk, while if someone else was possessed by whatever possessed Wanda she wouldn't be at fault.

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    CYCLOPS_WAS_RIGHT

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    Scarlet witch: goes completely insane, murders teammates, commits act of genocide on entire race...is allowed back on team like nothing happens

    Cyclops: only wants to protect his endangered and persecuted race, gets possessed by a cosmic entity and does something he never normally do...gets put in jail

    avengers logic everybody, what a bunch of dam hypocrite

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @jonsmith:

    "It went dark because they forced all of it's power into two people. And yeah, they KNEW that would happen. Which makes it all the more stupid they MADE it happen by attacking the Avengers. You remember what started off the whole deal? Namor killing Wakanda. Remember why he did that? The Avengers captured one of the mutants. Reed Richards himself, arguably the smartest man in Marvel, said the Phoenix Five would be fine IF THE AVENGERS JUST LEFT THEM ALONE"

    what was the smartest man in the world basing that on? all the worlds that the Phoenix had saved when people split it up? Come on..

    "And yet they persisted, they antagonized, they instigated, they all but forced the Five to retaliate. And then they blamed the mutants for retaliating when it was the Avengers who started THE ENTIRE MESS. Literally EVERY single problem of this entire conflict was the Avengers fault: Why did the Phoenix Five even exist? Because the Avengers decided to ignore Cyclops' plan, despite him having vastly more experience with the entity in question than they do, and in fact ended up going with his plan of training Hope to control it AFTER everything they thought of had failed. Why did the Phoenix Five attack them? Because the Avengers decided to keep poking them with a stick going, "Hey. Hey. HEY. HEY. HEY. You feeling evil yet? You feeling evil yet? You feeling evil yet? We're going to kidnap one of your kids. You feeling evil yet?"

    for a guy with "vastly more experience", he obviously didn't learn the same lesson as all the other X-men. Remember all the X-men and mutants for whom he didn't speak? or the ones that joined him only to regret it? maybe Cyclops wasn't corrupted by the Phoenix force until it went dark, but all the other Phoenixes around him sure were; it's the kind of thing you'd think someone would notice when they were omniscient, but whatever.

    "Regardless, yeah, Cyclops originally wanted to re-ignite the X-gene by training Hope to control it. After his species was wrongfully wiped out by Wanda. And how was saving an entire species from the brink of extinction a selfish goal? That was only there because it'd been BROUGHT there? That's like saying the endangered species act is selfish: How is it wrong to want to save a species?

    Granted, it was Scott's species, but he himself had nothing personally to gain from it: He kept his powers. If he'd lost them and was trying to bring back the mutants in an attempt to get those powers back (though why would he?), sure, I could see how you'd call that selfish. But he wasn't. He was just trying to save his species. You think Cap, or the Avengers would act any differently if humanity was on the line?

    Firstly, his species is human.. But this wasn't about saving lives, this was about people being human as opposed to being human mutants. And he was willing to risk everyone's life to that end. I think that's selfish. What does he have to gain? What does the self-proclaimed and politically recognized champion and leader of Mutants everywhere have to gain from there being more Mutants? kinda seems like everything.

    @koays said:

    Basically @herrpfister, the Avengers said from the start that this power is dangerous and people could die and Cyclops disagreed because he thought it was there to bring back mutants. Well if the Avengers were wrong, there's more mutants; if Cyclops was wrong the world is at risk. Both sides were wrong and right in a way, but the consequences of Cyclops' (clear headed) choice to ignore the possible danger is what got him in trouble. I'd go as far to argue that if the X-Men succeeded and Hope got the phoenix but eventually went Dark, they'd still lay the blame on Cyclops for taking the risk, while if someone else was possessed by whatever possessed Wanda she wouldn't be at fault.

    his clear-headed decision was to risk everyone's life, when almost everyone told him not to, for reasons that were simply not good enough.

    I love Cyclops, he's one of my favorite characters even through all of this, but in this matter Cyclops was wrong. He got what he wanted, but not because he deserved it; so he ultimately paid a price he never would have agreed to -all of which would be fair, if everyone else hadn't had to pay it too.

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    HopesummersFORtheFUTURE

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    is this another cyclops was right thread??? im staying out of it

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    oldnightcrawler

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    #14  Edited By oldnightcrawler
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    Wolverine008

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    oldnightcrawler

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    JonSmith

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    #17  Edited By JonSmith

    what was the smartest man in the world basing that on? all the worlds that the Phoenix had saved when people split it up? Come on..

    for a guy with "vastly more experience", he obviously didn't learn the same lesson as all the other X-men. Remember all the X-men and mutants for whom he didn't speak? or the ones that joined him only to regret it? maybe Cyclops wasn't corrupted by the Phoenix force until it went dark, but all the other Phoenixes around him sure were; it's the kind of thing you'd think someone would notice when they were omniscient, but whatever.

    Firstly, his species is human.. But this wasn't about saving lives, this was about people being human as opposed to being human mutants. And he was willing to risk everyone's life to that end. I think that's selfish. What does he have to gain? What does the self-proclaimed and politically recognized champion and leader of Mutants everywhere have to gain from there being more Mutants? kinda seems like everything.

    Look, Oldnightcrawler, man. I've typed up an extensive counterargument to your points below. It's in the spoiler block. But before you read it, let's get a few things out of the way, THEN decide if you want to continue this argument.

    AvX was poorly written. In all regards. Every character was poorly represented: Cap and Stark should have been working WITH Cyclops, not fighting him. And if everyone had been in character, they would have been. Working together, pooling their knowledge to stop the Phoenix. But because Marvel wanted the X-Men and Avengers to fight, everyone was warped out of shape to compensate. And we, the fans, are left picking up the pieces trying to justify it. Because even though we know how it SHOULD have been, we have to deal with how it was.

    You can open that spoiler. You can read my counter, you can counter it in kind if you want. And I'll reply, and we can keep going at it over, and over, and over again, until maybe miraculously one of us somehow convinces the other. Or we keep arguing until we're circling the same points, and leave the argument in a huff, neither satisfied, irritated at an inability to reconcile our differences. Or.

    We can agree that this entire argument is borne of bad writing, and ill treatment of the characters. We can agree that while the rightness and wrongness, the fault, of both parties can be argued ad nauseum, both parties were at least partially at fault. And we can leave this argument peacefully, on common ground that the ones truly to blame for this fiasco was the writers. Your move, Oldnightcrawler.

    Bare minimum, Reed was working off the same information Stark and Cap had access to. MINIMUM. And given that he was researching, he probably had even more. And his conclusion?

    No Caption Provided

    And I still say Cyclops was more experienced in things pertaining to the Phoenix than Stark or Cap: Who killed it's host? Who lived with it, fought alongside and against it, almost every time it's popped up, if not every time? That'd be Cyclops. If he says, "Yo, hey, this MIGHT not be all bad. Hope MIGHT be able to control it." And again, I reiterate: What were Cap and Stark going to do to protect Hope? They wanted to take her away, implying they had someplace they could put her where she'd be safe. But where? The Phoenix was busting through planets like Deadpool goes through chimichangas! And it was zeroing in on her FROM ACROSS THE UNIVERSE! There was NOWHERE they could have put her where it could not find her, and by hiding her, were in fact placing the world further at risk, chancing the Phoenix tearing through the planet to get at her.

    And again, I mention: They wind up going with Cyclops plan to begin with. Scott wanted to train Hope to control it, channel it. This is how they won after trying LITERALLY EVERYTHING ELSE. Which means, yeah, the dude who knew the Phoenix and it's hosts best, was RIGHT about how to handle it, AND the effects thereof. Go figure.

    As for the other Five going Dark first, remember: It all kicked off when Namor attacked Wakanda. THAT was what led to his defeat, and subsequent focusing of his Force into the other Four, which is when they ALL started to go Dark.

    And WHY did he attack Wakanda? Because they kidnapped Transonic after attacking the Five repeatedly. Did the Phoenix maybe nudge Namor into an action he wouldn't have otherwise done? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But it was only after he responded to the Avengers antagonistic actions and was beaten that the others started cracking. So yeah, one can lay that squarely at the Avengers feet again.

    And his species isn't human. Unless something substantial has changed in recent years that I somehow missed, he's a mutant. Meaning however he may look, his species is homo superior: Mutant. And he wasn't risking everyone's life: He knew the Avengers wouldn't be able to stop the Phoenix, because he KNEW the Phoenix. True to form: They didn't. They managed to hurt it, split it, divert it, but not stop it.

    So from Cyclops' point of view, the situation was: Hand Hope to the Avengers where they'll probably toss her in a cell or some other place that won't protect her while they try and stop the Phoenix, which they'll fail to do, resulting in the Phoenix killing them and still getting at Hope, who'll be unprepared and probably go Dark almost immediately.

    OR.

    Refuse the Avengers and train Hope to handle the Phoenix, so WHEN it gets to Earth, and it WILL, she can do some good with it rather than snapping and killing everyone.

    No matter what, from every point of view, the situation was risky with the whole world in the balance. The difference being: Cyclops knew you couldn't stop the Phoenix. They weren't going to stop it. They certainly weren't going to kill it. It was GOING to take a host. The ONLY question was: Was said host going to snap immediately, or have enough control to hang on while the Phoenix did whatever it was there for? So: Saving all life on Earth from a being that can kill everything on Earth, probably getting mutants back as a bonus? Or letting all life on Earth die because the Avengers think they know the Phoenix better than it's teammates?

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    @jonsmith: to be fair, didn't they provide all of those things after establishing a dictatorship over the planet? It's the whole freedom vs security thing. Some people highly resent sh-t like that. I havnt read AVX so please forgive me if I my info is less than accurate

    Also, the Avengers/X-Men were considering killing Wanda off at one point so it's not like they didn't care about her actions or anything.

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    dernman

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    Man people are still drinking the X-Men cool-aid.

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    devilsgrin81

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    @jonsmith: to be fair, didn't they provide all of those things after establishing a dictatorship over the planet? It's the whole freedom vs security thing. Some people highly resent sh-t like that. I havnt read AVX so please forgive me if I my info is less than accurate

    Also, the Avengers/X-Men were considering killing Wanda off at one point so it's not like they didn't care about her actions or anything.

    the only difference between the way world governments actually run, and the way the P5 were running the world... the power/fear/threat was contained in five beings not "elected" or "imposed" governments. There is no such thing as "freedom."

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    Lateralus

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    #21  Edited By Lateralus

    As for the Wanda/Cyclops comparison....This looks pretty similar to every Wolverine/Cyclops conversation post AvX.

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    #22  Edited By Avenging-X-Bolt

    @devilsgrin81: and that's supposed to make it right? Point is, we didn't ask them to lead/rule us either.

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    LordMordor

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    #23  Edited By LordMordor

    @avenging_x_bolt:

    They did not impose a dictatorship...the world governments were not ordered to bow before the 5 and Utopia, or to in any way relinquish their sovereignty. They provided free food, water and power before they addressed the UN

    Black Panther made a direct point of correcting Stark and Cap when they tried to say the P5 declared themselves rulers....what happened was they said "Yo, we gave you free food, water and power, now you can go about making the lives of your people better. Now we want to bring you peace...so while your building this awesome stuff...NO MORE WEAPONS. No more tools for killing."

    All they did was say no more war/killing...which is something the UN is supposed to support, but has little actual power to enforce.

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    bigtewell

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    i think a better question should be why is cyclops getting so much crap for killing xavier, while everyone seems to forget that wolverine killed northstar......

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    THUNDERBOLT30

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    @hopesummersforthefuture: this is a Cyclops was wrong thread, I've had enough of this nonsense.

    This made me lol. I have read these arguments a lot from fans on both sides. I can't get passed the fact that there has to be some accountability to the risks that people choose to take.

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    Tyger

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    Cyclops was harshly punished? He was arrested, and wound up confined in a location where the usual anti-mutant crap was going on. He was even allowed visitors. Cyclops could handle it, but his presence was pushing buttons, and another mutant inmate was killed in the fallout. He hasn't actually been punished yet.

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    LordMordor

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    very few heroes actually get punished when they are in the wrong or thought to be in the wrong...at worst they are usually shunned by the rest of the hero community and go rouge/underground until something big happens where they help the other heroes and have some big moment of heroism/self-sacrifice that gets everyone else to forgive them, or at least re-accept them back into the hero community.

    Scotts right now still in the "being shunned" phase.

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    Koays

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    @koays said:

    Basically @herrpfister, the Avengers said from the start that this power is dangerous and people could die and Cyclops disagreed because he thought it was there to bring back mutants. Well if the Avengers were wrong, there's more mutants; if Cyclops was wrong the world is at risk. Both sides were wrong and right in a way, but the consequences of Cyclops' (clear headed) choice to ignore the possible danger is what got him in trouble. I'd go as far to argue that if the X-Men succeeded and Hope got the phoenix but eventually went Dark, they'd still lay the blame on Cyclops for taking the risk, while if someone else was possessed by whatever possessed Wanda she wouldn't be at fault.

    his clear-headed decision was to risk everyone's life, when almost everyone told him not to, for reasons that were simply not good enough.

    I love Cyclops, he's one of my favorite characters even through all of this, but in this matter Cyclops was wrong. He got what he wanted, but not because he deserved it; so he ultimately paid a price he never would have agreed to -all of which would be fair, if everyone else hadn't had to pay it too.

    Well, yea. With a clear head he chose to fight for the phoenix to come to earth, something which is always unstable and unpredictable. He had maybe a 1/50 chance of things going perfectly. In the end it turned out he was right because he got the results he planned on getting, but for taking a gamble with the lives of everyone on the planet....he was wrong. And whether it was him that got possessed or Wolverine or Ironman, Cyclops deserved to be punished for playing taking that gamble with the Phoenix.

    Plus there's the fact that no one who became a mutant asked for him to make them one...I mean if Canadians had a history of being persecuted and were going extinct and i'd feel a type if some guy and his friends risked the entire planet just so he could make me Canadian.

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    LordMordor

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    #30  Edited By LordMordor

    but what then about the millions who wanted to be Canadian, who took pride in being Canadian, and made it their goal of improving relations between Canadians and the world....but then discovered they were no longer Canadian because some crazy lady just decided to go "No More Canada"

    You rally together with the last sub-200 remaining Canadians...hoping to find a way to save your country/people/culture/whatever. But no option presents itself until some force that has the power to not only bring Canada back, but make it so everyone who would have been born Canadian if things had progressed naturally, was a Canadian

    moving on from the Canadian example, keep in mind...Scott did not force, manipulate, or ask the phoenix to come to earth. All attempts to really force the phoenix to do anything generally fail with heavy consequences unless the host convinces it to do so. It was coming regardless.

    Hope was known to be special...the only mutant born post-M day, able to stabilize the X-gene, bringing the 5 lights post-Mday by displaying a hint of its power at the end of 2nd coming. Everyone KNEW it was coming for her, the best and arguably only chance of dealing with it was for Hope to be trained and prepared for when it arrived...which was Scotts plan. It was a plan based largely on faith, faith that Hope was special enough to control it, combined with faith that its goal was to fix what Wanda broke. He had more faith than facts...but the facts he did have were more than the Avengers had. He knew Hope had a unique connection to it, and that it was not just a force of destruction, but also of life and rebirth.

    Their plan was to try and fight it, then to hide its host (or kill its host in Wolverines case), then to try and shoot it with a big gun.

    Once those plans backfired horribly and put the phoenix in 5 people who were unable to fully control it...they tried fighting it more...until finally they decided to try Scotts plan and train Hope.

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    LordMordor

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    I think I should clarify something....the Avengers were wrong for going off gut reaction solutions...they tried to deal with the Phoenix when they didn't have all the facts and didn't have the slightest idea what it was coming for, and until Cap asked Logan they didn't even know who it was coming for (implying they didn't know about Hope's strong connection to it)

    Scott was wrong because he completely brushed aside the Avengers fears and concerns about it...its a mutant problem, we'll handle it...that is completely not good enough of an answer. He refused to include them because at this point he was so paranoid about interference and people seeking to finally finish off mutants that he wasn't willing to work with the Avengers. Perhaps had he clued them in on the situation as the X-men saw it...things might have gone differently. Hope gets trained as planned, but now with the avengers also offering whatever support they can....have her meet the Phoenix off-planet so at least the initial risk is lower (The goal of the Phoenix was earth, nothing anyone could do would make the situation risk free). This time hopefully after being trained and not having the turmoil of being the cause for a massive hero-vs-hero crossover event would make her not blink when it takes her.

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    Tyger

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    Here's a question...

    What happened to Jean during all of this?

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    LordMordor

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    she only kinda showed up once at the end....Scott had taken the last half of the Phoenix from Emma, killed Xavier and gone full dark Phoenix, he kicks everyone's ass for awhile until the trained Hope and Wanda arrive. They take on Scott and while the fight happens Scott has an internal moment in his head....he see's the shadowed form of Jean who tells him she is here with him, and that he has to let go...Hope and Wanda land the final blow as the Phoenix leaves Scott and joins with Hope, who takes on White Phoenix colors, fixes the damage DP-Scott caused, and finally let the Phoenix force go as its power goes around the planet, re-activating all the dormant X-genes

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @jonsmith:

    "AvX was poorly written. In all regards. Every character was poorly represented: Cap and Stark should have been working WITH Cyclops, not fighting him. And if everyone had been in character, they would have been. Working together, pooling their knowledge to stop the Phoenix. But because Marvel wanted the X-Men and Avengers to fight, everyone was warped out of shape to compensate. And we, the fans, are left picking up the pieces trying to justify it. Because even though we know how it SHOULD have been, we have to deal with how it was."

    I agree, it was stupid that they were fighting about it in the first place. Yes, lots of them were written poorly to make this happen, but what happened was Cyclops chose his goals over everyone's safety. He risked the lives of everyone on the planet to get what he wanted; that he got what he wanted in the end doesn't mean he had any right to take that risk.

    I could go back and forth about how Reed Richards logic was flawed, how Wolverine, Beast, and Xavier all also had experience with the Phoenix, how Emma goated Namor into destroying Wakanda, how the Avengers also helped train Hope to be prepared, or how it took her and the Scarlet Witch to stop the Phoenix, but all of that is besides the point that Cyclops simply had no right to risk everyone's life in the first place. To me it's just that simple, with the stakes that high, his ends did not justify his means.

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    LordMordor

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    People were in danger regardless, but Scott didn't put them in that position...he didn't call the Phoenix to Earth, it was just coming on its own. He just figured that that best way to deal with it was to train its most likely host. The Avengers thought they could stop it from arriving in the first place.

    Neither party caused the danger. Scotts plan didn't increase the risk any more than what already existed, the Avengers acting pre-emptively without knowing what it was coming for increased the danger and risk. And in the end they caused more risk to the planet by putting it in people who were not meant to have it, and then pre-emptively attacking them as well.

    The only way the risk to the planet would have been reduced, would be for the two sides to have acted like the level-headed leaders they normal are and work together, combining their information and resources to train hope and have her meet the PF off planet.

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    adamTRMM

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    #36  Edited By adamTRMM

    lolololololololool

    Look what Bendis did to us :(

    Anyway, on panel? Cyclops was right, weather you like, or not. Was he heroic during achieving his goals? Debatable. Were his points correct acknowledging evidence prom the pages? Only "deniers gonna deny" lol

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    Koays

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    but what then about the millions who wanted to be Canadian, who took pride in being Canadian, and made it their goal of improving relations between Canadians and the world....but then discovered they were no longer Canadian because some crazy lady just decided to go "No More Canada"

    You rally together with the last sub-200 remaining Canadians...hoping to find a way to save your country/people/culture/whatever. But no option presents itself until some force that has the power to not only bring Canada back, but make it so everyone who would have been born Canadian if things had progressed naturally, was a Canadian

    moving on from the Canadian example, keep in mind...Scott did not force, manipulate, or ask the phoenix to come to earth. All attempts to really force the phoenix to do anything generally fail with heavy consequences unless the host convinces it to do so. It was coming regardless.

    Hope was known to be special...the only mutant born post-M day, able to stabilize the X-gene, bringing the 5 lights post-Mday by displaying a hint of its power at the end of 2nd coming. Everyone KNEW it was coming for her, the best and arguably only chance of dealing with it was for Hope to be trained and prepared for when it arrived...which was Scotts plan. It was a plan based largely on faith, faith that Hope was special enough to control it, combined with faith that its goal was to fix what Wanda broke. He had more faith than facts...but the facts he did have were more than the Avengers had. He knew Hope had a unique connection to it, and that it was not just a force of destruction, but also of life and rebirth.

    Their plan was to try and fight it, then to hide its host (or kill its host in Wolverines case), then to try and shoot it with a big gun.

    Once those plans backfired horribly and put the phoenix in 5 people who were unable to fully control it...they tried fighting it more...until finally they decided to try Scotts plan and train Hope.

    LOL at Canada. The fact is the minority of remaining Canadians didn't take a survey or even consider the ramifications of bringing back the Canadians, they just made a decision that was best for the less then 200 of them. A decision that others would make in their place probably, but a decision that effects way more then them.

    But I have to say that while the Avengers were incredibly stupid on many levels through their constant use of force to answer problems, it doesnt makes Scott's, or better yet the X-Men's plans for Hope any less risky.

    They had all the signs and warnings that the phoenix was coming for Hope. they had all the reason in the world to believe and even proof that Hope was special and in some way connected to the restoration of Mutants. But they also had the history of the Phoenix, it's unpredictability. its good, its bad and its worst. The fact is they were taking something they didn't fully understand(Hope's connection to mutants) and uniting it with something they couldn't predict(The Phoenix Force) and betting everything on it. But the fact is it's selfish for a minority to risk the lives of a majority on something like that.

    The Avengers were not the brightest bulbs in the conflict, but as potential victims of a possible catastrophe, they had a right to say "Maybe you guys shouldn't invite the Cosmic Bird who wants to restart life in fire to our planet...again"

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    poisonfleur

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    seiously wanda and scott should be both locked up

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @koays said:

    @oldnightcrawler said

    his clear-headed decision was to risk everyone's life, when almost everyone told him not to, for reasons that were simply not good enough.

    I love Cyclops, he's one of my favorite characters even through all of this, but in this matter Cyclops was wrong. He got what he wanted, but not because he deserved it; so he ultimately paid a price he never would have agreed to -all of which would be fair, if everyone else hadn't had to pay it too.

    Well, yea. With a clear head he chose to fight for the phoenix to come to earth, something which is always unstable and unpredictable. He had maybe a 1/50 chance of things going perfectly. In the end it turned out he was right because he got the results he planned on getting, but for taking a gamble with the lives of everyone on the planet....he was wrong. And whether it was him that got possessed or Wolverine or Ironman, Cyclops deserved to be punished for playing taking that gamble with the Phoenix.

    Plus there's the fact that no one who became a mutant asked for him to make them one...

    I dunno about your analogy, but this is definitely a main point in that not only did he not speak for all mutants, ex-mutants, and would-be-mutants, but he was also risking their lives as much as everyone else'.

    I dunno about 1 in 50 chances, or what the odds were; but even if it was a 1 in 2 chance that he either killed everyone or gave some people superpowers, it still wasn't his decision to make. He was still wrong for making it.

    It actually disturbs me how many people on here don't seem to know the difference between right and wrong, or think that his decision was in any way acceptable. Maybe some people are just trolling, but the people who genuinely think Cyclops was right in this matter really make me fear for the future.

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    Koays

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    @koays said:

    @oldnightcrawler said

    his clear-headed decision was to risk everyone's life, when almost everyone told him not to, for reasons that were simply not good enough.

    I love Cyclops, he's one of my favorite characters even through all of this, but in this matter Cyclops was wrong. He got what he wanted, but not because he deserved it; so he ultimately paid a price he never would have agreed to -all of which would be fair, if everyone else hadn't had to pay it too.

    Well, yea. With a clear head he chose to fight for the phoenix to come to earth, something which is always unstable and unpredictable. He had maybe a 1/50 chance of things going perfectly. In the end it turned out he was right because he got the results he planned on getting, but for taking a gamble with the lives of everyone on the planet....he was wrong. And whether it was him that got possessed or Wolverine or Ironman, Cyclops deserved to be punished for playing taking that gamble with the Phoenix.

    Plus there's the fact that no one who became a mutant asked for him to make them one...

    I dunno about your analogy, but this is definitely a main point in that not only did he not speak for all mutants, ex-mutants, and would-be-mutants, but he was also risking their lives as much as everyone else'.

    I dunno about 1 in 50 chances, or what the odds were; but even if it was a 1 in 2 chance that he either killed everyone or gave some people superpowers, it still wasn't his decision to make. He was still wrong for making it.

    It actually disturbs me how many people on here don't seem to know the difference between right and wrong, or think that his decision was in any way acceptable. Maybe some people are just trolling, but the people who genuinely think Cyclops was right in this matter really make me fear for the future.

    Well i think its partly because people are confusing the subject.

    Was Cyclops right, as in he had a theory and evidence to support the hypothesis that something would turn out a certain way? Yes.
    Was Cyclops the only one who stuck to this belief from beginning to the end despite pressure? Yes.
    Were his hypothesized results prove correct? Yes!

    Did he have the right to take a chance with everyone's lives? No.
    Did he consider the damage that would be caused by proving his belief? No.
    Was Cyclops in any way morally justified to take the chance he did? No!

    People need to stop arguing "Morals v. Desired Result" in this case. Proving Cyclops' belief ended up causing a lot of death, which was always a chance, and he (and the 20 something X-Men everyone forgets were helping him) deserved to be punished for being morally wrong.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @koays said:

    Did he have the right to take a chance with everyone's lives? No.

    Did he consider the damage that would be caused by proving his belief? No.

    Was Cyclops in any way morally justified to take the chance he did? No!

    People need to stop arguing "Morals v. Desired Result" in this case. Proving Cyclops' belief ended up causing a lot of death, which was always a chance, and he (and the 20 something X-Men everyone forgets were helping him) deserved to be punished for being morally wrong.

    At the very least I think it's fair that he's should be blamed for the deaths he did cause; whether he would have caused them with a clear head is irrelevant if he knew the chance he was taking.

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    HopesummersFORtheFUTURE

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    she only kinda showed up once at the end....Scott had taken the last half of the Phoenix from Emma, killed Xavier and gone full dark Phoenix, he kicks everyone's ass for awhile until the trained Hope and Wanda arrive. They take on Scott and while the fight happens Scott has an internal moment in his head....he see's the shadowed form of Jean who tells him she is here with him, and that he has to let go...Hope and Wanda land the final blow as the Phoenix leaves Scott and joins with Hope, who takes on White Phoenix colors, fixes the damage DP-Scott caused, and finally let the Phoenix force go as its power goes around the planet, re-activating all the dormant X-genes

    So Jean was right????? Yay

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    adamTRMM

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    #43  Edited By adamTRMM

    @oldnightcrawler said:

    It actually disturbs me how many people on here don't seem to know the difference between right and wrong, or think that his decision was in any way acceptable. Maybe some people are just trolling, but the people who genuinely think Cyclops was right in this matter really make me fear for the future.

    There is no right and wrong, what other event if not AVX has taught us this. There's my side and their side, that was one the few good metaphors and ideas we've got from this sh!tstorm. How can it disturb you? You don't even consider mutants their own people, which means Cyclops and his supporters were guilty is absentia, which means you don't consider any other opinion than one you already chose for yourself to be "the morally right". What I have seen was an individual of a dying race that chose, against all odds and the world itself that tried to convince him otherwise by nothing but force, to make it right for his people, people that had no future and were pushed to the edge by that same world they were part of, that has taken responsibility to be a representative of, with just a promise to determine their own self-identity and inheritance no one had the right to touch from the beginning. That moment was a definitive for Cyclops, it's either future extinction or a revival, plane and simple. And after everything, just more than a hundred mutants were through, all the "passionate love" the whole world expressed for them again and again, you still can't find logic, and the difference between the right and wrong is so clear to you? Man, you should fear for the future then, because I'll tell you something, world isn't defined by noble heroes and evil villains, it is shaped by OUR heroes and THEIR heroes, and I'll tell you a little secret, our heroes are not always noble, believe me, I've seen it. Simple as that.

    And in this story, I chose my heroes, because I felt a connection for their struggle, their pain and their losses, I supported them 100% and seeing them vilified in the end (plot stupidities, idiotorial mandates - doesn't matter) made the allegory even stronger, because I see it almost everyday in my life, it's just how it works.

    Btw, on panel, the cosmic force of creation, the culmination of all life energy, decided to take over somebody - how can ones decide where are the "right morals" in not allowing it to do so? I dunno, but I'd trust the one who has seen the future burned away when THE OTHER GUYS didn't allow it.

    @koays said:

    deserved to be punished for being morally wrong.

    Please, define morally wrong.

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    Koays

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    @adamtrmm said:

    @koays said:

    deserved to be punished for being morally wrong.

    Please, define morally wrong.

    Knowing that a course of action has the potential for great destruction and loss of life, and deeming that an acceptable risk in pursuit of a goal.

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    adamTRMM

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    #45  Edited By adamTRMM

    @koays said:

    Knowing that a course of action has the potential for great destruction and loss of life, and deeming that an acceptable risk in pursuit of a goal.

    Then again, potential risk (to allow PF do its thing) vs. certain risk (to not allow), what is the morally right course to choose? Decisions, decisions...

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    devilsgrin81

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    @koays said:

    @adamtrmm said:

    @koays said:

    deserved to be punished for being morally wrong.

    Please, define morally wrong.

    Knowing that a course of action has the potential for great destruction and loss of life, and deeming that an acceptable risk in pursuit of a goal.

    sounds like the actions of any number of "visionaries" and "great leaders" throughout history. virtually every single conqueror. and many scientists - particularly military.

    I don't think Cyclops' did anything wrong in wanting to harness the power of the Phoenix to revive mutantkind. The Phoenix was coming anyway. People seem to continue and intentionally forget this fact. The Phoenix was coming. Nothing in the universe was going to stop it. What's better? hiding the host, then shattering the phoenix into 5 pieces with no idea the consequences (avengers plan) or to actually prepare its intended host so as to harness it for the greater good (Cyclops' plan) to attempt to limit the potential for devastation that the phoenix can cause...? hmmm tough moral argument there...

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    Koays

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    #47  Edited By Koays

    @devilsgrin81: @adamtrmm: I admit you guys have a point that the phoenix couldn't be stopped. And its hard to argue with, since i kinda agree, and don't wanna speculate over how the Cyclops would've had the Phoenix and Hope meet since we never got to find out.

    But I'll just say that while trying to stop the Phoenix isnt an option(the Avengers are morons was one of my original points), if the counter argument was to just let it come to earth, where 6 billion other people live besides the X-Men...that doesn't make them morally right.


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    oldnightcrawler

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    @adamtrmm said:

    There is no right and wrong, what other event if not AVX has taught us this. There's my side and their side, that was one the few good metaphors and ideas we've got from this sh!tstorm. How can it disturb you? You don't even consider mutants their own people, which means Cyclops and his supporters were guilty is absentia, which means you don't consider any other opinion than one you already chose for yourself to be "the morally right". What I have seen was an individual of a dying race that chose, against all odds and the world itself that tried to convince him otherwise by nothing but force, to make it right for his people, people that had no future and were pushed to the edge by that same world they were part of, that has taken responsibility to be a representative of, with just a promise to determine their own self-identity and inheritance no one had the right to touch from the beginning. That moment was a definitive for Cyclops, it's either future extinction or a revival, plane and simple. And after everything, just more than a hundred mutants were through, all the "passionate love" the whole world expressed for them again and again, you still can't find logic, and the difference between the right and wrong is so clear to you? Man, you should fear for the future then, because I'll tell you something, world isn't defined by noble heroes and evil villains, it is shaped by OUR heroes and THEIR heroes, and I'll tell you a little secret, our heroes are not always noble, believe me, I've seen it. Simple as that.

    I don't know who your heroes are, but mine are not people who put the wants of a few before the lives of everyone.

    This wasn't a matter of Cyclops saving anyone's life, this was a matter of him risking everyone's life so that maybe some people could have superpowers, whether they even wanted them or not. If you can't see how that's selfish and irresponsible, then I'm not surprised you can't understand the difference between right and wrong. I'm not saying everything in life is that simple, but in this case it is.

    Cyclops may be one of my favorite heroes, but in this case his heroism was ill-placed; in this case, morally he was wrong.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    #49  Edited By oldnightcrawler

    @koays said:

    @devilsgrin81: @adamtrmm: I admit you guys have a point that the phoenix couldn't be stopped. And its hard to argue with, since i kinda agree, and don't wanna speculate over how the Cyclops would've had the Phoenix and Hope meet since we never got to find out.

    well, except that the Avengers, for all their mistakes, did stop the Phoenix once Hope was on their side.

    Which they were only able to accomplish through training her with Iron Fist's buddies and teaming her with the Scarlet Witch, which Cyclops didn't seem to have any intention of doing. We really weren't given any reason to think that Cyclops' plan was any better.

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    adamTRMM

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    #50  Edited By adamTRMM

    @oldnightcrawler:

    I don't know who your heroes are, but mine are not people who put the wants of a few before the lives of everyone.

    Then you just don't have any, and not from the comic books or literature.

    This wasn't a matter of Cyclops saving anyone's life, this was a matter of him risking everyone's life so that maybe some people could have superpowers, whether they even wanted them or not. If you can't see how that's selfish and irresponsible, then I'm not surprised you can't understand the difference between right and wrong. I'm not saying everything in life is that simple, but in this case it is.

    Actually, it was, the very definition of evidence you prefer to consistently overlook. But let us flow with just the accusations, "that some people" even with their superpowers gone, were blown up, murdered and hunted. You try to make it sound like superpowers are only a privilege, a nice skill to have, and not like for most the time, for muties, they are the means of self-defense and survival. Do they deserve a power to defend themselves at least? I guess you disagree.

    It wasn't selfish, it was selfless. It is a boy-scout we're talking about, do you think he enjoyed the process? I don't think so at least, but he decided to choose necessity over his own ideals. And that I respect, morals, or right and wrong, have little to do with that big decisions anyway - "damned if you do, damned if you don't", and everything in-between. You might also consider keeping every overpowered person on Earth irresponsible, since both Hulk and Thor can shatter a planet. Which makes Avengers, X-Men, Inhumans, FF and who not 100% selfish. That logic doesn't work here.

    Even in that case, it wasn't simple at all. Cable told him what will happen if Avengers take Hope away and will try to stop Phoenix from hosting her, and I'll ask again, who are those people anyway to decide if the cosmic force itself has decided? Tell me please. To me it seems like Cyclops saved the whole Earth from being judged by that force right before ignorant and arrogant idiots tried to mess with it further.

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