1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

*Sigh* here we go again.

@x_29 said:

*Sigh* here we go again.

yup. honestly cant people just let this shizz die?

Wolverine is a huge hypocrite but I blame it on the writers for over-using his hairy ass and writing him to fit into the damn story they want to tell, not giving 2 s--ts about any other story.

@SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

Cyke wasn't possed by Dark Phoenix YET he killed the Pro X when he was still in control he new what he was doing AFTER Pro. X death then that's when all hell broke loose he turned into Dark PF.So......cyclops actually did that himself all that OTHER stuff yea he was possed so basically cyclops shouldn't be in jail at all. I find it funny that Wanda is free and had the nerve to talk down about the mutants and say it's better if the mutant pop should just stay low(Something like that), but her excuse is 1.She is a Avenger as Captain said she is a Avenger we deal with are own. 2. She was possed by the Life Force. Number 2 yes that's true as for number 1 that excuse I don't buy it. So really (I think) he shouldn't be in jail AT ALL being that he was possed by a powerful force, but eh Marvel wants everyone in this story arc to be jerks and let killers and hypocrites walk around *Cough* Wolverine, Beast *Cough* Wanda, Cap *Cough*

Anyway that's my input. :)

@SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

I'm a cyclops fan I can answer this all.

1.) Because he had his faculties when he took over the world and overwhelmed people's political freedoms. Wolverine didn't have millions of murders. Ultron is a sentient being and as such responsible for his own actions. Can't blame the father for a child that kills people.

2.) Beast had little choice, Wolverine was the only one offering an alternative to Cyclop's Utopia. Wolverine was also against child soldiers, whereas Scott didn't seem that against it.

3.) The information they had on Phoenix was too much of a risk to allow the X-men to deal with it. After Dark Reign the Avengers essentially became an arm of SHIELD, finally giving SHIELD the ability to respond to cosmic threats.

4.) Nope. But the ends don't justify the means.

5.) Also an untold amount of people were killed when he went Dark Phoenix, he allowed the enslavement of other mutants and allowed Wakanda to stay in ruin.

6.) House of M occurred because Wanda was possessed by an evil entity.

your the only person who acknowledges House of M.

A)House of M:Cyclops sees a problem and asks Cap to help because Wanda is a mutant, Cap says no she is an Avenger and we will take care of it

B)End Result:X-Men had to step in the save the situation,multiple deaths, the destruction of the mutant gene from all planes of existence and Wanda just walks around feeling bad.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

A)AVX: Cap comes to Cyclops and tells him the PF is coming to earth and that the Avengers will handle it depite having no real knowledge of it.

B)End Result:the PF splinters into 5,New York and Wakanda is destroyed, Xavier is killed, Mutants are reborn and Cyclops is jailed and his followers are hunted.

Do you see a problem with these two events?

@SaintJohn said:

your the only person who acknowledges House of M.

A)House of M:Cyclops sees a problem and asks Cap to help because Wanda is a mutant, Cap says no she is an Avenger and we will take care of it

B)End Result:X-Men had to step in the save the situation,multiple deaths, the destruction of the mutant gene from all planes of existence and Wanda just walks around feeling bad.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

A)AVX: Cap comes to Cyclops and tells him the PF is coming to earth and that the Avengers will handle it depite having no real knowledge of it.

B)End Result:the PF splinters into 5,New York and Wakanda is destroyed, Xavier is killed, Mutants are reborn and Cyclops is jailed and his followers are hunted.

Do you see a problem with these two events?

And Civil War? Cap ask the X-Men and the only ones who openly aided him were Cable and Storm or Avengers disassembled Wanda was a mutant where were the X-Men when a mutant was killing Avengers?

The issue is simply neither side has always been there when the other was needed and the loser of these things is jailed Steve in Civil War and Scott in AVX.

@Blood1991

Civil War? You mean the time the X-men were living in a government run concentration camp, surrounded by sentinels and had just finished burying 25 of their students after watching 45 of them get blown up in a attack by the purifiers? Or how they were at the time responsible for keeping the remaining 198 mutants safe when there was Purifier fanatics running around trying to burn every mutant left on a cross? Oh yah, great time for what's left of mutant kind to declare war on the US government..... The X-men were a bit busy not getting killed to deal with people being upset about having to reveal their identities to the government.....

I think you need a better example of the X-men not being their for the Avengers then Civil War, what the X-men were going through at the time makes the whole conflict look like a joke, especially since they've already been through the whole registration thing.....

@TheCrowbar said:

@SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

I'm a cyclops fan I can answer this all.

1.) Because he had his faculties when he took over the world and overwhelmed people's political freedoms. Wolverine didn't have millions of murders. Ultron is a sentient being and as such responsible for his own actions. Can't blame the father for a child that kills people.

2.) Beast had little choice, Wolverine was the only one offering an alternative to Cyclop's Utopia. Wolverine was also against child soldiers, whereas Scott didn't seem that against it.

3.) The information they had on Phoenix was too much of a risk to allow the X-men to deal with it. After Dark Reign the Avengers essentially became an arm of SHIELD, finally giving SHIELD the ability to respond to cosmic threats.

4.) Nope. But the ends don't justify the means.

5.) Also an untold amount of people were killed when he went Dark Phoenix, he allowed the enslavement of other mutants and allowed Wakanda to stay in ruin.

6.) House of M occurred because Wanda was possessed by an evil entity.

Wow. How did no one acknowledge this post before me?

Well answered.

The only reason I can support for not liking Cyclops is the Madelyne Pryor and Emma fiasco, but that issue really fixed itself over time. He is the only leader suitiable and no one really stepped up to lead when the race was dwindling. Xavier died which was sad to folks, not me, he will be better as a martyr to drive the x-men forward though.

@SaintJohn: @SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

Hello! I am new in this forum! As my first post here i would be happy to give some insights of my own regarding the subject all though i am not a Wolverine fan.

1) Wanda had lost he mind during the whole incident of House of M and if i am not mistaken she was under the influence of Dr Doom as is it was revealed in Children's Crusade. Wolverine never lied to anyone, not to himself, his friends, his teammates and his readers that he was and still is a murderer. The lives he took however where ruthless monsters ad killers much worse than Wolverine ever hoped to become. The only times he killed innocents were the ones when someone else was in control of Logan's body. As for Hank Pym, he never intented to create a monstrocity such as Ultron and he had tried a gazilion times with the Avengers to bring him down.

2) Scott was not completely under the control of Phoenix. He was aware of his actions. What it looked to me was that he was drunk from all this power.

3) It is true that it was hursh from Captain America to demand Hope but Scott was not so much protective torwards Hope by allowing her to participate into potentially lethal missions and there was a lot of indications that the Phoenix Force was not so friendly when it was approching Earth (all these planets it destroyed).

4) Cyke survived tough situations of equal importance without resorting to killing.

5)That doesn' t change the fact that he took a life, and not just a life. He killed the clostest person he had for a father an probably he set in motion a chain of events that might endanger not only the mutants but the whole world (see Uncanny Avengers #1)

6) Probably true but we do not know what would have happened since the balances in these occasions were pretty much erratic!

@SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

AVX is a poorly written story without any doubt. The fact that marvel made X-Men out to be bullies and Avengers out to be the good guys, is disgusting. The fact that made the Avengers know more about the Phoenix force than the X-Men is a joke, considering they never encounter the Phoenix Force. The fact that they question the loyalty of X-Men members too. Is even more of a joke? Wolverine and Beast decided to aid the Avengers etc. Like I said before, poorly written story.

I think the problem with Cyclops is he knew the risks, so did Emma in fact. Emma Frost lost 2 of her daughters to the Phoenix force and Cyclops lost his wife to the Phoenix force. He knew the risks, he decided to ignore it, ignore what people were saying about it . He ignored Charles, Wolverine and the Avengers. He put innocent people in danger, innocent people die and he endanger his own kind.

Namor attack Wakanda, Emma Frost tied her own people in chains and made them suffered. Magik throw the Avengers and Rogue into some sort demon prison. Then Cyclops became the Dark Phoenix, killed Charles Xavier and put innocent people in danger. Remember those people that Spiderman saved, Cyclops endanger those people. He knew risks before he became Dark Phoenix. He saw what the Phoenix force did to his wife and yet he ignored what people were telling him.

You could ask how Cyclops responsible for the other Phoenix five? Cyclops is responsible for them. He was the leader of the Phoenix five and he was leader of the X-Men and he knew the risks. Not only that, he was connected to the five. So he should have been more aware of what they were doing. The Avengers were dicks in the story, but least they were trying to save the world, not endanger it. Why did Cyclops going after Mr Sinister by way. What was the point of that?

The fact that people think Cyclops is a hero in this, is actually funny. He not hero. Innocent people die and he let it happened. So what if he was right about Hope, who cares. What if Wolverine did kill Hope, don’t you think the Phoenix force would have brought her back to life? He did not save the mutant race, Hope and Scarlet Witch did. The fact that he believes he did, is kind of arrogant of him to think that, but he always been arrogant. Ever since he became leader of the mutant race, he been arrogant.

Should Cyclops be locked up prison? who knows, who cares. He breaking out anyway and it looks like there will be a lot of changes made to his character. He made form his own team, his own Utopia. He may be enemy of the Avengers, or he may try winning the leadership of the X-Men back. Who cares! At least the X-Men can move forward now and X-Men just won’t be about him any more.

By the way wasn't Scarlet Witch crazy in House of M, isn't that the reason why she created a world ruled by her family. That likes locking up unstable person. She did help Hope saved the mutant race after all.

I love the responses. But people forget that Cyclops saved Hawkeyes life.REMEMBER?

Namor destroyed Wakanda not Cyclops.

Wanda was crazy and possessed so what she did was ok? Cyclops went dark later on.

Civil War was between heroes.........not mutants. The X-Men don't have secret Identities only the Avengers do so that wouldn't involve them. Also they explained that they only have a hand full of members so they rather not get involved since they were already going through their own issues. During all of those other events there was no way in hell old Cyclops would have got it done. These people knew that Cyclops only had a hand full of mutants, knew that there was a baby "messiah" born, and were trying to finish off the X-Men period. Cyclops made the best choices and ensured that the mutant race survived. Which is why I HATE Beast and even Namor called him a sellout for turning his back on his own people. While Storm disliked X-Force everyone else understood,respected,and was ok with it for the most part since it was Cyclops who saved them all by forming X-Force in the first place.

Ok i'm confused now can someone explain this What exactly did cyclops do to put innocent people and mutants in danger because I did not see nobody get killed until the very end of the story arc.

^^^^^they are blaming him for not fixing what NAMOR did and for killing Xavier. But people forgot they helped rebuild the world and asked the Avengers to leave them alone................................yet they attacked anyway. Cyclops even saved Hawkeyes life REMEMBER? but that means nothing because he killed Xavier.....boo hoo.

@SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

1) I don't think Wanda should be free. She should be locked up.

2) I think Wolverine and Hank are hypocrites.

3) Captain is wrong on that part. They've stayed out of Mutant affairs and now all of a sudden they do? Me no likey their selectiveness.

4) I don't think he's a "bad guy". I put him alongside Hank and Wolverine.

5) In retrospect, he knew the history of the Phoenix and his utter faith in it disturbed me considering with what it did to his wife. He was right in the end, but the real question is do the end justify the means? To get there, he killed the man that gave him a home and trained him. Without Xavier, Cyclops would be nothing. It's sort of like this man has done so much for you and now you kill him? Xavier had done bad things to in his life, but that doesn't wipe away the amount of good he did as well. And I believe that for Cyclops as well.

6) House of M is Wanda's fault, plain and simple.

I may be a "hater" but I'm one of the people who isn't afraid to say Cyclops was Right (eventually).

@imperial90 said:

@Blood1991

Civil War? You mean the time the X-men were living in a government run concentration camp, surrounded by sentinels and had just finished burying 25 of their students after watching 45 of them get blown up in a attack by the purifiers? Or how they were at the time responsible for keeping the remaining 198 mutants safe when there was Purifier fanatics running around trying to burn every mutant left on a cross? Oh yah, great time for what's left of mutant kind to declare war on the US government..... The X-men were a bit busy not getting killed to deal with people being upset about having to reveal their identities to the government.....

I think you need a better example of the X-men not being their for the Avengers then Civil War, what the X-men were going through at the time makes the whole conflict look like a joke, especially since they've already been through the whole registration thing.....

Probably not.

The point is that Marvel makes these teams selective to make the story easier to tell, not because it would make more sense for them to be there. Which is why we get a three issue tie in for the X-Men most times on big events.

@Madame_Mist said:

@SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

1) I don't think Wanda should be free. She should be locked up.

2) I think Wolverine and Hank are hypocrites.

3) Captain is wrong on that part. They've stayed out of Mutant affairs and now all of a sudden they do? Me no likey their selectiveness.

4) I don't think he's a "bad guy". I put him alongside Hank and Wolverine.

5) In retrospect, he knew the history of the Phoenix and his utter faith in it disturbed me considering with what it did to his wife. He was right in the end, but the real question is do the end justify the means? To get there, he killed the man that gave him a home and trained him. Without Xavier, Cyclops would be nothing. It's sort of like this man has done so much for you and now you kill him? Xavier had done bad things to in his life, but that doesn't wipe away the amount of good he did as well. And I believe that for Cyclops as well.

6) House of M is Wanda's fault, plain and simple.

I may be a "hater" but I'm one of the people who isn't afraid to say Cyclops was Right (eventually).

I keep seeing this, what did the Phoenix do to his wife? Unless you're talking about how the Dark Phoenix empowered the Goblin Queen. But what did it do to Jean? The Phoenix didn't drive her insane his girlfriend and her old friends did. Which is why this whole event sucked, they forgot that just being or having the Phoenix does not make you evil, Jean was manipulated by the Hellfire Clubm she would have stayed Green Phoenix if not for Mastermind with Emmas help. Rachel never went Dark, Maddie did but she was manipulated by demons.

I cannot answer this because I gave up reading AvX at issue 4.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Madame_Mist said:

@SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

1) I don't think Wanda should be free. She should be locked up.

2) I think Wolverine and Hank are hypocrites.

3) Captain is wrong on that part. They've stayed out of Mutant affairs and now all of a sudden they do? Me no likey their selectiveness.

4) I don't think he's a "bad guy". I put him alongside Hank and Wolverine.

5) In retrospect, he knew the history of the Phoenix and his utter faith in it disturbed me considering with what it did to his wife. He was right in the end, but the real question is do the end justify the means? To get there, he killed the man that gave him a home and trained him. Without Xavier, Cyclops would be nothing. It's sort of like this man has done so much for you and now you kill him? Xavier had done bad things to in his life, but that doesn't wipe away the amount of good he did as well. And I believe that for Cyclops as well.

6) House of M is Wanda's fault, plain and simple.

I may be a "hater" but I'm one of the people who isn't afraid to say Cyclops was Right (eventually).

I keep seeing this, what did the Phoenix do to his wife? Unless you're talking about how the Dark Phoenix empowered the Goblin Queen. But what did it do to Jean? The Phoenix didn't drive her insane his girlfriend and her old friends did. Which is why this whole event sucked, they forgot that just being or having the Phoenix does not make you evil, Jean was manipulated by the Hellfire Clubm she would have stayed Green Phoenix if not for Mastermind with Emmas help. Rachel never went Dark, Maddie did but she was manipulated by demons.

I mean like the bad history attached to the Phoenix and Jean (Dark Phoenix and all that). It can be a source of good, yes, but it is not always necessarily a source of good either.

@Madame_Mist said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Madame_Mist said:

@SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

1) I don't think Wanda should be free. She should be locked up.

2) I think Wolverine and Hank are hypocrites.

3) Captain is wrong on that part. They've stayed out of Mutant affairs and now all of a sudden they do? Me no likey their selectiveness.

4) I don't think he's a "bad guy". I put him alongside Hank and Wolverine.

5) In retrospect, he knew the history of the Phoenix and his utter faith in it disturbed me considering with what it did to his wife. He was right in the end, but the real question is do the end justify the means? To get there, he killed the man that gave him a home and trained him. Without Xavier, Cyclops would be nothing. It's sort of like this man has done so much for you and now you kill him? Xavier had done bad things to in his life, but that doesn't wipe away the amount of good he did as well. And I believe that for Cyclops as well.

6) House of M is Wanda's fault, plain and simple.

I may be a "hater" but I'm one of the people who isn't afraid to say Cyclops was Right (eventually).

I keep seeing this, what did the Phoenix do to his wife? Unless you're talking about how the Dark Phoenix empowered the Goblin Queen. But what did it do to Jean? The Phoenix didn't drive her insane his girlfriend and her old friends did. Which is why this whole event sucked, they forgot that just being or having the Phoenix does not make you evil, Jean was manipulated by the Hellfire Clubm she would have stayed Green Phoenix if not for Mastermind with Emmas help. Rachel never went Dark, Maddie did but she was manipulated by demons.

I mean like the bad history attached to the Phoenix and Jean (Dark Phoenix and all that). It can be a source of good, yes, but it is not always necessarily a source of good either.

Ok I get it, but it has more showings as a force of good than evil with how many times it's been used to save the universe and the mutant race.

-M'kraan crystal stopped by Phoenix

-Necrom stopped by Phoenix

-616 saved by Phoenix

-Sublimes Cuckoos stopped by Phoenix

-Wandas spell undone by Phoenix

-Merging of two realities stopped by Phoenix

-AOA saved by Phoenix

-Xmen saved from Shi'are weapon by Phoenix

-Wolverine saved from death by Phoenix

-Inferno stopped by Phoenix

-Not to mention Jean was a Green Phoenix for longer than she was a Dark Phoenix and was using her powers as hero.

-Rachel was a hero

-Cable was saved as a child due to Phoenix

-the spell of an evil demon prince was undone by Phoenix

-Le Bete Noir was imprisoned by Phoenix

-Future Phoenix healed Eternity

Even the Phoenix 5 did some good with it in the beginning

The only evil was D'bari , that Shi'ar guy that had it centuries ago going nuts and some of the recent things done in AVX

@LordOfAllHumans:

What about all the planets the Phoenix obliterated? Even on the way to Earth, it consumed several.

@lykopis said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

What about all the planets the Phoenix obliterated? Even on the way to Earth, it consumed several.

Was that an act of evil or Phoenix work? IIRC new life sprang, that fire bird flying across the universe doing it's job is no more evil than Galactus or a hurricane doing theirs. I'm speaking about the Phoenix being used consciously by others, and even if those instances are included more good has come from the Phoenix than evil, which was my point.

@TheCrowbar said:

@SaintJohn said:

1)If you think Cyclops was wrong and deserve to be in jail, then why does Wanda(Decimation and House of M), Wolverine(millions of murders), and Hank Pym(Ultron) get to walk around free?

2)Why is Wolverine and Beast not considered a hypocrite when they both know Cyclops was possessed? And Beast for being sickened by X-Force just to be ok for Wolverine still doing it?

3)Wasn't Captain America wrong for not letting the X-Men deal with the phoenix like they have every other time and basically telling Scott he was taking Hope?

4)If Cyclops wasn't such a "bad guy"and killing would he have made it through,Curse of the Mutants,Messiah War, Second Coming, Dark Reign, and Fear itself?

5)Wasn't while he was possessed the only real thing he did was kill Professor X?

6)If AVX is Cyclops fault then isn't House of M Captain America's since Cyclops "ASKED" to help to be turned down by The Avengers?

I'm a cyclops fan I can answer this all.

1.) Because he had his faculties when he took over the world and overwhelmed people's political freedoms. Wolverine didn't have millions of murders. Ultron is a sentient being and as such responsible for his own actions. Can't blame the father for a child that kills people.

2.) Beast had little choice, Wolverine was the only one offering an alternative to Cyclop's Utopia. Wolverine was also against child soldiers, whereas Scott didn't seem that against it.

3.) The information they had on Phoenix was too much of a risk to allow the X-men to deal with it. After Dark Reign the Avengers essentially became an arm of SHIELD, finally giving SHIELD the ability to respond to cosmic threats.

4.) Nope. But the ends don't justify the means.

5.) Also an untold amount of people were killed when he went Dark Phoenix, he allowed the enslavement of other mutants and allowed Wakanda to stay in ruin.

6.) House of M occurred because Wanda was possessed by an evil entity.

1. Wolverine may not have killed millions of people, but he's certainly killed thousands (the exact number escapes me, I think it was mentioned in Aaron's Wolverine series, can't remember). Second to that, he goes feral on a pretty damn regular basis. The guy's a hypocritical danger.

Wanda deserves to die (at the most extreme end), have her powers removed, or be incarcerated, lobotomised etc. Just because she's an Avenger/was apparently mad/coerced into altering reality doesn't excuse the fact that she killed millions of people and almost caused the extinction of an entire race. If Scott's being incarcerated for what he did during AvX, the same should apply for Wanda. A sorry shouldn't cut it. Her situation's probably massibely helped by the fact that Steve harbours romantic feelings for her.

2. Beast didn't have to go to the school, either - that's rubbish. It boils down to a personal dislike of Scott on Hank's part. Beast has committed genocide himself. He's also incredibly whiny.

3. Turning up, armed on the shore of Utopia with two Hellcarriers full of dozens of Avengers ready to fight's probably not the best way to start negotiations.

4. Without the "killing" (mainly just retaliation), mutant-kind would have been eradicated.

5. He wasn't in control when he killed Professor X. He was in the process of going Dark Phoenix. He was already loosing control when he decided to take the Phoenix Force from Emma.

Maybe he would have restored Wakanda if he wasn't too busy fighting off the Avengers who had tried to take him down at every turn.

6. Wanda willingly chose to embrace the Life Force in the hope that she could restore her "children". So, yes, Wanda chose to mess with the fabric of reality in the attempt that she could recreate her fake children. She was then manipulated by her pathetic excuse of a brother into f'ing up reality so HoM would occur, resulting in Decimation.

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@lykopis said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

What about all the planets the Phoenix obliterated? Even on the way to Earth, it consumed several.

Was that an act of evil or Phoenix work? IIRC new life sprang, that fire bird flying across the universe doing it's job is no more evil than Galactus or a hurricane doing theirs. I'm speaking about the Phoenix being used consciously by others, and even if those instances are included more good has come from the Phoenix than evil, which was my point.

No --- it wasn't doing its "job" --- it consumed planets -- it was a force the Shi'ar had to deal with because of the atrocities caused by the Phoenix Force. Its not like Galactus or a hurricane -- this entity was streaking through the Universe with the intention to find Hope. I have yet to see a hurricane have a pre-meditated set course.

But I do understand your perspective, in that when the Phoenix Force was used consciously by others, it did more good than bad but in this instance -- it did bad. It was consuming the hosts it inhabited -- corrupting them, so its a force capable of being malevolent. Planet-destroyingly so.

EDIT: @LordOfAllHumans Never mind -- it did good in this instance, lol --- but it could have turned out very different considering who wielded its power. Whoever's fault that was -- it still was a dangerous force. When I think of the Phoenix -- I think of the Phoenix presented through the Dark Phoenix Saga and it was very different from the Phoenix presented in AvX. Its canon though -- so I just have to accept what the writers did to it.

All around -- I didn't enjoy this arc at all. Just glad its over, frankly.

Has Cyclops' expressed regret for the death of Xavier?

@lykopis said:

Has Cyclops' expressed regret for the death of Xavier?

Yes. Uncanny X-Men Vol. 2 #19 whilst talking to Beast and during AvX Consequences.

@John Valentine said:

@lykopis said:

Has Cyclops' expressed regret for the death of Xavier?

Yes. Uncanny X-Men Vol. 2 #19 whilst talking to Beast and during AvX Consequences.

Good enough for me then. Cyclops' was under the full influence of the Phoenix, placing full blame on him for Xavier's death is unfair.

1)

The direction they are taking the character in Marvel Now is actually making me like his chanracter more. I really didn't enjoy boy scout Cyclops.

2) I like Wolverine but he and Beast are basically Mutant whores strutant around in like half of the Marvel books. Mostly Wolverine.

3) Why would Captain American be wrong. Are you saying the world should sit on their butts and do nothing when something has the potential to destroy the entire world? Just ask the Hulk why does everyone always chase him down no matter where he goes to be left alone.

4) Zangief: "Ralph-cylops, you are bad guy but this does not mean you are bad guy." ~Wreck-It-Ralph

5) ....yes but the key here is ....he feels it was ok to kill Charles because "He was right".... and....... he would do it all over again.

6) Sometimes there is no black and white to self justify labels like this. People just need to get past this little fluffy stuff and enjoy the characters journey. Trust me It's gonna be fun.

Where have i seen this thread before?

Not troll'n here. Just enjoying the character tension between Wolverine and Cycolps. ^^

Cyke is in jail because the rest of the P-5 has not turned themselves in. So Cyke is taking the burden for all of them..or WAS..

@Mrfuzzynutz said:

Cyke is in jail because the rest of the P-5 has not turned themselves in. So Cyke is taking the burden for all of them..or WAS..

Emma's in prison :P..

@Mrfuzzynutz said:

Cyke is in jail because the rest of the P-5 has not turned themselves in. So Cyke is taking the burden for all of them..or WAS..

Extinction team balla status is way too high to be locked up.

I can't believe people are defending Cyclops. Did he save the mutant race? Did he repopulate the mutant race ? No, No, No. No, he didn't.

Did he endanger the mutant race and the human race? Yes, Yes, Yes. He did

@time: Emma didn't lose two of her daughters to the Phoenix Force, what are you talking about? She lost one daughter to Xorn, and the other daughter got killed due to the one that died to Xorn screwing with her head. If your talking about Warsong, they were already dead at that point, all the Phoenix did was destroy the Cuckoos that threatened to kill all of the mutant race and enslave the Phoenix.

Jean also didn't die due to the Phoenix Force, the Phoenix Force saved Jeans life when it put her in that Cocoon and took her place, Jean died due to Xorn giving her a severe stroke, get your facts straight, you sound like you just read AvX with its completely horrific and inaccurate portrayal of past events without having actually read any of the events that your talking about. One of the major complaints about wolverine in this event revolves around how inaccurate his description of what went on with Jean and the Phoenix was like and Captain America's opinion on the PF also means jackshit because he knows nothing about it other then the crap wolverine fed him.

@imperial90 said:

@time: Emma didn't lose two of her daughters to the Phoenix Force, what are you talking about? She lost one daughter to Xorn, and the other daughter got killed due to the one that died to Xorn screwing with her head. If your talking about Warsong, they were already dead at that point, all the Phoenix did was destroy the Cuckoos that threatened to kill all of the mutant race and enslave the Phoenix. Jean also didn't die due to the Phoenix Force, the Phoenix Force saved Jeans life when it put her in that Cocoon and took her place, Jean died due to Xorn giving her a severe stroke, get your facts straight, you sound like you just read AvX without having actually read any of the events that your talking about. One of the major complaints about wolverine in this event revolves around how inaccurate his description of what went on with Jean and the Phoenix was like.

My point being is Emma and Scott knew the risks when is come the Phoenix force and didn't Jean Grey become Dark Phoenix and killed loads of innocent people.

Didn't Emma witness the pain the Cuckoos went through when the Phoenix force control them.

My points is Cyclops knew risks and he endanger lives of innocent people and killed Charles.

Just for the record. He didn't save the mutant race. Hope and Scarlet Witch did.

I made mistake when it comes to Phoenix Warsong, not AVX.

Cyclops is not hero, he be turn into a villian.

@time: Jean Grey became Dark Phoenix after the Mastermind and Emma Frost went into her head and broke the Phoenix's mind driving it insane. And that wasn't even Jean, the Phoenix just took her form after it saved her life and left her in the New York bay in a Cocoon to heal. In other words, the Phoenix did not drive its host insane, other people drove the Phoenix insane. It was then that she decided to eat a star that ended up causing the deaths of a planet full of Brocolli people. Once again, you don't know what your talking about when it comes to the history of the Phoenix Force.

As such, still waiting to hear how the Phoenix Force is SO dangerous and Emma and Scott should have known better when the only time it was ever shown as a threat to earth was after humans decided to drive it insane. And don't use Endsong as your example, that time it was the Shiaar that drove the Phoenix insane.

@imperial90 said:

@time: Jean Grey became Dark Phoenix after the Mastermind and Emma Frost went into her head and broke the Phoenix's mind driving it insane. And that wasn't even Jean, the Phoenix just took her form after it saved her life and left her in the New York bay in a Cocoon to heal. In other words, the Phoenix did not drive its host insane, other people drove the Phoenix insane. It was then that she decided to eat a star that ended up causing the deaths of a planet full of Brocolli people. Once again, you don't know what your talking about when it comes to the history of the Phoenix Force.

As such, still waiting to hear how the Phoenix Force is SO dangerous and Emma and Scott should have known better when the only time it was ever shown as a threat to earth was after humans decided to drive it insane.

Ok Saint.

Simple question, has the Phoenix force killed millions of people?

If I don't know what I am talking about, so does other people on comic vine.. They think Jean hasn't been punished for what the Phoenix force has done.

My points is Scott and Emma knew the risks.

@time: Then they don't know what their talking about either, the Phoenix Force killed millions of Broccoli people after having been driven insane by Mastermind and Emma Frost. It wasn't even Jean Grey, it was quite literally the Phoenix Force having decided to take Jeans form and memories while it left Jean to heal in a Cocoon. So no, Jean Grey is entirely innocent of that whole affair, she was sleeping in the New York bay the whole time it was happening. Just because their ignorant that doesn't mean its suddenly all right for your argument that you are. The only risk it would have taught Emma and Scott is not let people poke around inside the head of the Phoenix, it doesn't appreciate it, at all, a lesson Xavier sadly for him learned the hard way.

@imperial90 said:

@time: Jean Grey became Dark Phoenix after the Mastermind and Emma Frost went into her head and broke the Phoenix's mind driving it insane. And that wasn't even Jean, the Phoenix just took her form after it saved her life and left her in the New York bay in a Cocoon to heal. In other words, the Phoenix did not drive its host insane, other people drove the Phoenix insane. It was then that she decided to eat a star that ended up causing the deaths of a planet full of Brocolli people. Once again, you don't know what your talking about when it comes to the history of the Phoenix Force.

As such, still waiting to hear how the Phoenix Force is SO dangerous and Emma and Scott should have known better when the only time it was ever shown as a threat to earth was after humans decided to drive it insane. And don't use Endsong as your example, that time it was the Shiaar that drove the Phoenix insane.

Emma and Scott know what the Phoenix force capable off. Wolverine, Charles and The Avengers try to warn Cyclops and he didn't listen.

Namor attack Wakanda, killing innocent people and Emma tied her own people up in chains and Cyclops killed Charles and put innocent people in danger. Do you remember Hope putting out the fires. Who do you think cause that ?

Actually I don't think you have red AVX. You didn't see what they actually did?

What about the people Spiderman saved and what people he couldn't saved ?

@imperial90 said:

@time: Then they don't know what their talking about either, the Phoenix Force killed millions of Broccoli people after having been driven insane by Mastermind and Emma Frost. It wasn't even Jean Grey, it was quite literally the Phoenix Force having decided to take Jeans form and memories while it left Jean to heal in a Cocoon. So no, Jean Grey is entirely innocent of that whole affair, she was sleeping in the New York bay the whole time it was happening. Just because their ignorant that doesn't mean its suddenly all right for your argument that you are. The only risk it would have taught Emma and Scott is not let people poke around inside the head of the Phoenix, it doesn't appreciate it, at all, a lesson Xavier sadly for him learned the hard way.

It doesn't mean people ignorant, it just means they need to read up on X-Men history. I haven't red Dark Phoenix saga in years but I still can justified my argument. Emma and Scott put people lifes in danger, they knew the risks.

I don't think you have actually red AVX. Innocent people die remember.

Scott was in the wrong.

@time: You need to read AvX infinite #6 and the Uncanny X-Men tie ins. Cyclops knew full well what the risks were, he just decided to use the power for good instead. The rest of Act 2 he was building farms and helping people in need, he also got rid of weapons of mass destruction to end wars, he was solving every problem on earth. I can't remember if it was Dr. Strange or Reed Richards but one of them even said "Why are we even trying to stop him". He said that because Cyclops was doing good. Maybe Namor, Emma, and Magik did bad things but Cyclops did not. Plain and Simple, and now he's taking the blame for that because it was on HIS watch. Like you said Wolverine, Cap, and Charles all tried to warn him because they knew the risks .. so if they knew the risks why would they attack him and drive him to tap into more of the power?

He killed professor X in self defense, and he regrets it, HOWEVER Cyclops has dedicated his ENTIRE life to trying to restore the mutant race since M-day and he knew Hope was the key to that. That's why he'd do it all over again.

@time: I have not made a single argument that had anything to do with AvX, I am arguing against your point that the past history of the Phoenix should have taught Scott and Emma some sort of lesson about it, when the history of the Phoenix has had nothing to do with the supposed lesson they should have learned according to you. And yes, they are ignorant, not knowing what your talking about by definition makes them ignorant.

I will repeat this again, Logan was spewing nonsense in AvX, pretty much nothing that he said about it was true. Captain America knows jack shit about the Phoenix Force so his opinion is moot and Xavier only started caring after Wakanda which Namor did behind Scotts back after he told him not to.

@aaunderoath said:

@time: You need to read AvX infinite #6 and the Uncanny X-Men tie ins. Cyclops knew full well what the risks were, he just decided to use the power for good instead. The rest of Act 2 he was building farms and helping people in need, he also got rid of weapons of mass destruction to end wars, he was solving every problem on earth. I can't remember if it was Dr. Strange or Reed Richards but one of them even said "Why are we even trying to stop him". He said that because Cyclops was doing good. Maybe Namor, Emma, and Magik did bad things but Cyclops did not. Plain and Simple, and now he's taking the blame for that because it was on HIS watch. Like you said Wolverine, Cap, and Charles all tried to warn him because they knew the risks .. so if they knew the risks why would they attack him and drive him to tap into more of the power?

He killed professor X in self defense, and he regrets it, HOWEVER Cyclops has dedicated his ENTIRE life to trying to restore the mutant race since M-day and he knew Hope was the key to that. That's why he'd do it all over again.

@imperial90 said:

@time: I have not made a single argument that had anything to do with AvX, I am arguing against your point that the past history of the Phoenix should have taught Scott and Emma some sort of lesson about it, when the history of the Phoenix has had nothing to do with the supposed lesson they should have learned according to you. And yes, they are ignorant, not knowing what your talking about by definition makes them ignorant.

I will repeat this again, Logan was spewing nonsense in AvX, pretty much nothing that he said about it was true. Captain America knows jack shit about the Phoenix Force so his opinion is moot and Xavier only started caring after Wakanda which Namor did behind Scotts back after he told him not to.

@imperial90

I think your being arrogant, cause you don't see the damage the Phoenix force cause.

Cyclops was the leader of the Phoenix five, so he is responsible for what they did, cause he is there leader. Namor never encounter the Phoenix before, so he doesn't know what it was like. So Cyclops should of kept eye on the Phoenix five. He should of went to the one person who has control the Phoenix force , Rachel and she could of help them deal with it.

The Phoenix force may been different, cause it was separated among five of them, but doesn't mean she couldn't of help them.

Cyclops didn't listen to Charles, Charles wanted him to stop and Cyclops didn't, then he became Dark Phoenix. If Cyclops listen to people before, that wouldn't of happen.

Cyclops knows the Phoenix force corrupts, so he should of know better.

Anyways didn't the Avengers help Hope with Phoenix force anyway ? Didn't Scarlet Witch help Hope save the mutant race.

If Cyclops is saint, why are the X-Men not following him anymore ?. Why didn't they stop the Avengers from arresting him.

Just for the record Cyclops kick Charles out of the X-Men and he got involved cause, he knows what Cyclops was doing was wrong. So did Magneto by the way, that's why he called Charles. By the way Cyclops didn't listen to Charles in the first place, when he first show up at Utopia .

Sigh..... god its like talking to a wall here, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON IN AVX, I was discussing the very first point in your argument about how Scott and Emma should have learned some lesson that the Phoenix Force is going to go insane on its own and destroy the world when the history of the Phoenix Force does not support such a lesson. The Phoenix force doesn't corrupt, Rachel Summers had it longer then any other host and she's perfectly fine, she had it for years and didn't go insane, the only time the Phoenix has gone insane or driven its host insane is when other outside sources has driven the Phoenix insane. The writers of AvX basically took the Dark Phoenix Saga, and then ignored everything else that's been said about the Phoenix since then, which is ALOT. Your just taking the drivel they mentioned in AvX and ignoring the rest of its actual history.

I will repeat again, nothing in my argument holds any relevance to what went on in AvX, my argument with you is that the actual history of the Phoenix Force does not support the lesson you are saying Emma and Scott should have known before they had the Phoenix Force forced on to them.

Also, hah at your point where Charles was saying they hadn't earned it. So your one of those people who subscribe to the belief its all right for 5,000 children to die every hour due to a lack of food because they "didn't earn it" huh? Because they haven't suffered enough? That was basically Charles argument against Cyclops there, and that argument is bull shit. I do find it amusing to imagine Captain America taking the bread out of the arms of starving children in Africa telling them "they haven't earned it" lol.

@imperial90 said:

Sigh..... god its like talking to a wall here, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON IN AVX, I was discussing the very first point in your argument about how Scott and Emma should have learned some lesson that the Phoenix Force is going to go insane on its own and destroy the world when the history of the Phoenix Force does not support such a lesson. The Phoenix force doesn't corrupt, Rachel Summers had it longer then any other host and she's perfectly fine, she had it for years and didn't go insane, the only time the Phoenix has gone insane or driven its host insane is when other outside sources has driven the Phoenix insane. The writers of AvX basically took the Dark Phoenix Saga, and then ignored everything else that's been said about the Phoenix since then, which is ALOT. Your just taking the drivel they mentioned in AvX and ignoring the rest of its actual history.

I will repeat again, nothing in my argument holds any relevance to what went on in AvX, my argument with you is that the actual history of the Phoenix Force does not support the lesson you are saying Emma and Scott should have known before they had the Phoenix Force forced on to them.

Also, hah at your point where Charles was saying they hadn't earned it. So your one of those people who subscribe to the belief its all right for 5,000 children to die every hour due to a lack of food because they "didn't earn it" huh? Because they haven't suffered enough? That was basically Charles argument against Cyclops there, and that argument is bull shit. I do find it amusing to imagine Captain America taking the bread out of the arms of starving children in Africa telling them "they haven't earned it" lol.

I think your argument is bullshit too.

Cyclops may have good intentions at first, but then he turn evil and became Dark Phoenix.

The the rest of Phoenix five turn evil too. They become corrupted by the Phoenix force. duh

Cyclops and Emma did know the risks and they ignore it.

Your dumb.