Jean Grey/Phoenix and Wolverine

#1 Posted by Phoenix God (389 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you think in mainstream comics (in the near future), they are going to put Jean Grey/Phoenix and Wolverine together? If they do, what do you think will be the cause and effects of it for them? For Cyclops and Emma? For the X-Men?

#2 Posted by fesak (7029 posts) - - Show Bio

No.

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#3 Posted by Phoenix God (389 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, thanks for thinking that out. I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself.

Do you hate the idea of those two together, or what? Do you prefer Logan with someone else? Do you wish Jean would stay dead? If the latter is the case, don't say it. This thread will turn in to a 'I hate Jean! I wish she would stay dead.' And that would hurt my heart. Granted, writing wise there have been some problems, but there is so much potential there.

#4 Posted by fesak (7029 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate Logan! I wish he would stay dead.

No seriously, i thing the great part of their relationship is that both know that they can't and shouldn't be together, but at the same time they want to. It makes it very real in a way.

On the other hand it wouldn't surprise me considering the amount of insanely bad writing for Wolverine the last years.

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#5 Posted by Phoenix God (389 posts) - - Show Bio

What about Jean? What of hers' has been good in years? Phoenix: Endsong wasn't half bad. Phoenix: Warsong was full bad. Horrific story line. I mean, the Stepford Cuckoos? What, could they think of nothing else to have them do? Cripes! I think both characters need a bit of a reboot. It is like Marvel thinks we will keep forgiving them because the characters have been around so long. Well, enough is enough!

#6 Posted by Phoenix God (389 posts) - - Show Bio

Geesh, I like Wolverine. I understand that Jean is very powerful. Howerful, I think it would be great to see her burning away what doesn't work. How does she know what needs burned? How many trillions has Phoenix killed? What kind of power does the White Phoenix of the Crown have over the other Phoenix's? Are there rules? Is there a link between her and the Living Tribunal and the One-Above-All? Maybe they meet to discuss things! How cool of a little series would that be????

It would be the COOLEST THING EVER!!!

#7 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84366 posts) - - Show Bio

Colt Python says:

"Sorry to anyone who actually cares about Jean as Phoenix but she sucks.I'm tired of her.I wish they would leave her dead so she will stop coming back to play with Wolverine's emotions.Scott has Emma, he doesn't give a rats balls about her anymore.And now neither do I.She is too powerful.What the hell does she keep coming back for.She's like a poltergeist..the little piece of crap pushes you down the steps and you can't even fight it back.Wolverine is not a bad character.All the Wolverine hate is getting as old as the Iron man Hate.Read Wolverine:Enemy of the state..Wolverine isn't as overpowered or as poorly wirtten as people are saying.Who did he beat that was impressive as of late? Nitro? Daredevil kicked his ass in Wolverine:Enemy of the State and he doesn't even have powers."

I agree. I miss OLD Jean Grey.

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#8 Posted by Phoenix God (389 posts) - - Show Bio

Can we get back to the original question?

#9 Posted by Golden Bullet (5 posts) - - Show Bio

fesak says:

"I hate Logan! I wish he would stay dead. No seriously, i thing the great part of their relationship is that both know that they can't and shouldn't be together, but at the same time they want to. It makes it very real in a way. On the other hand it wouldn't surprise me considering the amount of insanely bad writing for Wolverine the last years."

I agree, the main point of their relationship is the URST (unresolved sexual tension). They can't be together, it would ruin the Jean/Logan dynamic.

#10 Posted by Phoenix God (389 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder if they just hooked up one time and everyone found out about it. What would the repercussions be? What would Charles do? Scott? Emma? X-Men? etc.

#11 Posted by White Mage (18740 posts) - - Show Bio

Phoenix is no longer the X HBIC, Emma is. I REALLY liked Jean, even with Phoenix. But that was only when she was still with the X-Men. Logan and Jean? I for one, would NOT like to see that, not yet anyways. The only Phoenix that works for me, is the Ultimate Phoenix. They still managed to give the love triangle, while maker her powerful, yet, restricted. The only way I would like Jean and Logan, is if Scott started making some serious drama. I NEED the love triangle, or else, I just don't want to see it.

#12 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio

i like jean but not when she's so powerful that she's a threat to the universe and that shi'ar are hunting her. i'm so over that. i cant stand jean and wolverine. i never liked that. she should have just been with scott and wolverine can be some loner who can never keep a girlfriend. i'd like that much better.

#13 Posted by Phoenix God (389 posts) - - Show Bio

What about Logan and Jean having one giant public lust filled incident on Emma and Cyclops bed? Would everyone be about that?

#14 Edited by sailormoonblack (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Alternative universe Phoenix should meetup: Phoenix Wolverine and Phoenix Jean should be together. In the video game we see the Phoenix 5 and Black Phoenix Jean that could be something.....I don't get how Dr Doom caused Wanda to access the Lifeforce which ultimately unleashed the chaos wave depowering mutants and angering Phoenix entity. Why was Dr Doom not present during Avengers vs X-Men and Wanda's kids weren't involved either.

#15 Posted by adamTRMM (1205 posts) - - Show Bio

When I was a kid and I was watching 90s X-Men cartoon I was like "hey why isn't Jean with Wolverine?" but this mainly because that Wolverine was a bad ass while Cyclops was lame.

@sailormoonblack:

I see what you mean, Marvel's inconsistence has to stop.

#16 Posted by HAWK2916 (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

What if all the Phoenix' from every universe/dimension came back and fought it out and at the end we are left with a depowered Jean or least a Jean with powers burnt out like X-man?

#17 Edited by mechem_93 (122 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know, the main reason Jean and Logan couldn't be together was Jean's relationship with Cyclops. That wouldn't be a problem right now because Scott is with Emma. But still I prefer for her to explore other possibilities aside from Logan, maybe someone who is not an x-men for a change.

#18 Posted by jhazzroucher (14732 posts) - - Show Bio

as i see it, it's going to be Storm and Wolverine

#19 Posted by Crimsonlord53 (1292 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering the end of AvX what if almost made me vomit no I don,t want the too of them to every get together. Jean is simply a shadow of rose who james loved all those long years ago. I would think that jean has grown up as the WPOTC and is mature enough to see that what she may have felt for wolverine was only a young woman,s infatuation and nothing more.

#20 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4180 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Edited by adamTRMM (1205 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4180 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm: I think I disagree with you, but I suppose that depends on what you mean..

#23 Posted by adamTRMM (1205 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler:

Being more specific ,we're just talking about PF and related stuff? Was Wanda empowered by life-force or chaos magic when she depowered the mutants? Does chaos magic exist or not? What is life-force if not PF? Was Doom really to be blamed for the Decimation? What did PF have to do with mutants from the begging and why was it angered by their depowerment? Now if you have answers for all of this I'd like to be enlightened.

#24 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4180 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

@oldnightcrawler:

Being more specific ,we're just talking about PF and related stuff? Was Wanda empowered by life-force or chaos magic when she depowered the mutants? Does chaos magic exist or not? What is life-force if not PF? Was Doom really to be blamed for the Decimation? What did PF have to do with mutants from the begging and why was it angered by their depowerment? Now if you have answers for all of this I'd like to be enlightened.

ah, I think I see what you mean.

In terms of how much of a character's actions are they actually responsible for (when they supposedly aren't in control of their powers), I can see how these types of things raise raise a lot of questionable (double) standards.

For me, I guess it really comes down to the idea of temporary insanity, or how responsible a person, who is not in control of themselves, is for their actions. If we compare this to things like crimes of passion, crimes committed under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or by subjects of brainwashing, etc, then it does stand to reason that every writer (and character) is going to have a slightly different opinion on that. And, that every writer (or character) would probably not have an opinion that is totally consistent, within itself, applied to every different situation.

Frankly, it's a bigger question than can ever completely be answered (in a way that everyone agrees on), especially in a product of fantasy like the X-men. So I think it's more important (both to the stories and in general) that the question is raised and thought about, than what any one person/writer/character's opinion on the subject is.

I mean, in one way, one of the best things about reading ensemble casts like the X-men is that each character represents a different perspective that an issue like this can be looked at from. So, in that way, it would be a disservice to the issue itself (which does have it's own real-world significance), not to mention unrealistic, for all of the writers/characters to come to a consistent consensus.

So, yeah, I guess I disagree with you. sorry.

#25 Posted by adamTRMM (1205 posts) - - Show Bio

In terms of how much of a character's actions are they actually responsible for (when they supposedly aren't in control of their powers), I can see how these types of things raise raise a lot of questionable (double) standards.

It already did.

For me, I guess it really comes down to the idea of temporary insanity, or how responsible a person, who is not in control of themselves, is for their actions. If we compare this to things like crimes of passion, crimes committed under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or by subjects of brainwashing, etc, then it does stand to reason that every writer (and character) is going to have a slightly different opinion on that. And, that every writer (or character) would probably not have an opinion that is totally consistent, within itself, applied to every different situation.

Frankly, it's a bigger question than can ever completely be answered (in a way that everyone agrees on), especially in a product of fantasy like the X-men. So I think it's more important (both to the stories and in general) that the question is raised and thought about, than what any one person/writer/character's opinion on the subject is.

You gave a perfect comparison. What happens to those committed crime under the influence of drugs\alcohol? Exactly, they are punished by the law. Do I believe in law? It doesn't matter, what matters is how the world reacts to these types of crimes. Writers disagree and make the world act each time differently, this exactly what my point is.

I mean, in one way, one of the best things about reading ensemble casts like the X-men is that each character represents a different perspective that an issue like this can be looked at from. So, in that way, it would be a disservice to the issue itself (which does have it's own real-world significance), not to mention unrealistic, for all of the writers/characters to come to a consistent consensus.

So, yeah, I guess I disagree with you. sorry.

What you're basically saying, is that this is a fictional world and logic doesn't always matter? I can agree with an ending that leaves us a questions we have decide for ourselves (who was right and who wasn't, etc'), but we're talking about how a "universe" works, it's not about opinions anymore, it is about order and laws\rules. Of course most of the characters supposed to be symbolic and bear a different purpose it does not negate what I was trying to say.

#26 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4180 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

You gave a perfect comparison. What happens to those committed crime under the influence of drugs\alcohol? Exactly, they are punished by the law. Do I believe in law? It doesn't matter, what matters is how the world reacts to these types of crimes. Writers disagree and make the world act each time differently, this exactly what my point is.

But is it like being under the influence, or is it more like being criminally insane? or being hypnotized? or being brainwashed? or something different from any of these? Because the law treats all of these differently, in different places, and in regards to different crimes.

As for a character, writer, or the world treating each case differently, even to the point of contradicting themselves, this also happens all the time in the real world. People get sentenced differently for the same crime everyday.

What you're basically saying, is that this is a fictional world and logic doesn't always matter? I can agree with an ending that leaves us a questions we have decide for ourselves (who was right and who wasn't, etc'), but we're talking about how a "universe" works, it's not about opinions anymore, it is about order and laws\rules. Of course most of the characters supposed to be symbolic and bear a different purpose it does not negate what I was trying to say.

that's not what I was saying.

but I do agree that it doesn't matter.

#27 Posted by adamTRMM (1205 posts) - - Show Bio

But is it like being under the influence, or is it more like being criminally insane? or being hypnotized? or being brainwashed? or something different from any of these? Because the law treats all of these differently, in different places, and in regards to different crimes.

As for a character, writer, or the world treating each case differently, even to the point of contradicting themselves, this also happens all the time in the real world. People get sentenced differently for the same crime everyday.

Differently, but the law DOES treat them. Now in Marvel U there is no treatment, only different opinions, which is stupid. I'm not even talking about how stupid the fact of a superpowered world WITHOUT detailed policy of superpowered crime treatment or how passive the governments are. Let me explain, what do you think will happen if there will show up super powered beings tommorrow in Russia or USA? First of all governments and those who oppose them will show up there right next to them. Then, if it will turn into what happens with mutantkind (which is out of control) AT LEAST there will be constructive policy, what to do and how to treat even the smallest crimes by superpowered people.

SHIELD is a joke, a flying heli-joke. It's not even funny anymore. Why? Because lazy writers want to be free to do whatever they want with nothing to hold them back. I don't want ALL the logic, but even a little bit would be really nice. :)

#28 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4180 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

Differently, but the law DOES treat them. Now in Marvel U there is no treatment, only different opinions, which is stupid. I'm not even talking about how stupid the fact of a superpowered world WITHOUT detailed policy of superpowered crime treatment or how passive the governments are. Let me explain, what do you think will happen if there will show up super powered beings tommorrow in Russia or USA? First of all governments and those who oppose them will show up there right next to them. Then, if it will turn into what happens with mutantkind (which is out of control) AT LEAST there will be constructive policy, what to do and how to treat even the smallest crimes by superpowered people.

Yeah, I think I see what you mean. I guess I always just chalk that stuff up to bureaucracy. If you consider that both Xavier and the Avengers have essentially worked for the government (which I think was largely to deal with the kinds of issues you're talking about, as well as getting around the idea of them being simply vigilantes), it seems more like they're considered to have their own agency in that world. The Avengers and the XSE have credentials that outrank most law agencies in regards to what situations are within their jurisdiction.

This makes the situations that the Avengers or X-men find themselves in technically their job (as entities) to deal with, unless it would put them in conflict with say SHIELD, SWORD, or WHOever, whom also work within their own jurisdictions.

I think you're right that it would be cool to see more exploration of the mechanics of these roles, and how they connect in terms of different agencies dealing with those relationships. Some stories do deal with it some, and most of the MU's back-story does involve various government agencies trying to control people with super-powers (Captain America, Hulk, Xavier, Wolverine, Alpha Flight, Blue Marvel, etc), so there's that, as a potential basis for how policy has been generally established. Certainly it could be interesting to see stuff, like how policies change over time, expounded upon.

SHIELD is a joke, a flying heli-joke. It's not even funny anymore. Why? Because lazy writers want to be free to do whatever they want with nothing to hold them back. I don't want ALL the logic, but even a little bit would be really nice. :)

I agree that seeing more of that sort of thing would be cool, on the level of establishing the worlds that the characters live in, but I don't think it's really fair to say that a writer is lazy just because the story he or she is telling doesn't happen on that scale, or deal with those particular things. The characters themselves, their stories, are the main thing; that they all exist in the same world is awesome, but, to me, it's really secondary to that, and doesn't need to always be dealt with in every story. In my mind, other than the Avengers (of which it's the premise), most of the time it just shouldn't matter that they all live in the same world.

#29 Edited by adamTRMM (1205 posts) - - Show Bio
@oldnightcrawler said:

Yeah, I think I see what you mean. I guess I always just chalk that stuff up to bureaucracy. If you consider that both Xavier and the Avengers have essentially worked for the government (which I think was largely to deal with the kinds of issues you're talking about, as well as getting around the idea of them being simply vigilantes), it seems more like they're considered to have their own agency in that world. The Avengers and the XSE have credentials that outrank most law agencies in regards to what situations are within their jurisdiction.

This makes the situations that the Avengers or X-men find themselves in technically their job (as entities) to deal with, unless it would put them in conflict with say SHIELD, SWORD, or WHOever, whom also work within their own jurisdictions.

I think you're right that it would be cool to see more exploration of the mechanics of these roles, and how they connect in terms of different agencies dealing with those relationships. Some stories do deal with it some, and most of the MU's back-story does involve various government agencies trying to control people with super-powers (Captain America, Hulk, Xavier, Wolverine, Alpha Flight, Blue Marvel, etc), so there's that, as a potential basis for how policy has been generally established. Certainly it could be interesting to see stuff, like how policies change over time, expounded upon.

That's what I'm saying, you can't have a force like the Avengers with all these geniuses and gods without knowing they won't overtake the governments' rule over the world. Just think like the government does for a second. I would like to see at least some infiltrated agents or another struggle over authority. But now it's kinda a yeas, CA reports straight to a president, so now it is less relevant, I guess it's because of Obama's popularity and trust over the USA which is kinda stupid, they were supposed to work for the world, not for the US (and I'm not even talking "out-of-politics" policy there was supposed to be, which angers me very much). The X-Men (and a whole mutandkind) are a whole new story actually, the mutant racism over MU is out of understanding even by the same very well accepted, non-mutant superpowered heroes (see Blue Marvel minis, a very nice minis, and I don't even like all the racism stuff, you'd ask, then what the hell are you doing in the X-Men forums, but I don't consider them outcasts or a minority, I consider them tomorrow's gods, oppressed by wretched humans' flaws). There's nothing surprising in the governments' treat and oppressing even the most accepted and loyal to law mutant facility. Actually, the whole new debate and other stuff running through my head right now, I could write a manifesto right now, but it would be really long and as I said, it would be too much :) You did answer some of my questions, which I wasn't actually expecting. Good work ;)

I agree that seeing more of that sort of thing would be cool, on the level of establishing the worlds that the characters live in, but I don't think it's really fair to say that a writer is lazy just because the story he or she is telling doesn't happen on that scale, or deal with those particular things. The characters themselves, their stories, are the main thing; that they all exist in the same world is awesome, but, to me, it's really secondary to that, and doesn't need to always be dealt with in every story. In my mind, other than the Avengers (of which it's the premise), most of the time it just shouldn't matter that they all live in the same world.

I'll tell what I mean, let's just make a comparison. In Kyle\Yost's X-Force there was a part, where an infiltrated Purifier made something kinda unthinkable with the SHIELD, and then Cyclops explained exactly how there was no reaction over their attacks on the X-Men because of some very authoritative Purifiers supporters in the government, and now after the unthinkable there will must be a reaction. Now you see, this is how you write good politics. The second is, what Bendis' Mystique does to them over and over again, without them even being on her tail, this is over the top already, they are portrayed as a joke. I can think about more examples if you wish :) Of course the story is in the first place, but they can't make us ignore a logic and, you now, credibility :)

#30 Posted by Squares (4678 posts) - - Show Bio

No, they won't pair them up, because that'll be changing the status quo of the characters. Marvel won't be able to milk the sexual tension between the two anymore and a huge gimmick will just be...gone. That's bad business.

#31 Posted by JROCK72 (411 posts) - - Show Bio

God, I hope they don't do that. Cyclops needs Jean as therapy. Less awful Cyclops, resurrected Jean and their relationship.

#32 Edited by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2767 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock72 said:

God, I hope they don't do that. Cyclops needs Jean as therapy. Less awful Cyclops, resurrected Jean and their relationship.

Totally Agree with You, did ppl get tired of emma/scott pairing yet?????

LOL.....Bad girls(lady zorn) kiss better

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