Given the presence and intensity of anti-mutant prejudice, could "mutophobia"

( much like racism-including anti-Semitism- homophobia and other forms of prejudice including Islamophobia) be classed as a legal form of "phobia"?

Could there be federal anti-mutant legislation such as the real life James Byrd Matthew Shepard Anti Hate Crimes Act of 2010?

Terry

I couldn't class it as a medical phobia unless the person genuinely feared mutants. As in getting anxiety attacks if a known mutant was anywhere near them (imagine someone going pale if Kitty Pryde walked past them).

The rest is just racism and as such and any laws against hate-crimes should cover them as well (in theory), since the crimes will most likely be comitted simply because the mutant is different from the perpetrator.

basically this, except I'd say it's the same as racism, rather than "just racism", since Mutants aren't a race.

Yes they are

@jonny_anonymous: no they aren't, I'm not having this fight.

Technically (as I've mentioned elsewhere) I think 'mutant' is a term that describes a group of non-humans that have superhuman powers thanks to their genes. Race on the other hand is a specific thing that only describes very few individuals within the broad category called mutants. But this is me nidpicking.

@outside_85: Mutants are human.

Mutants are technically human's but they are a separate race of humans. In real life there is only one race and that is homo sapiens but in the MCU there is also homo superior (mutants) and inhomo supremis (inhumans)

@oldnightcrawler: From a biological perspective; only partially. While the name he chose reeks of inflated ego, Magneto (or whoever coined it) was correct that Homo Sapien doesnt really apply to his kind the same way it doesnt cover Homo Neanderthalensis.

To this you have to add that only a tiny amount of mutants share the exact same abilities unless they are clones, so people like Emma and Charles (both telepaths) are in the same boat as a polarbear and a panda (same species, but with different attributes).

Where do I start? Mutaphobia is 100% legitimate. Why? Ask Scarlet Witch and Legion. Just one person can (and would) change the whole world. I also don't want to consider mutants as a metaphor to minorities or to whatever weirdos, because they are their own thing, and this thing needs to be explored more than what isn't even logically right to compare.

Let's talk about "social equality" when you'll sit with a telepath in the same room.

@outside_85: Human scientist came up with the term homo superior

The argument you seem to be making is that one specific gene, the X-gene, is enough to make mutants a different species or subspecies than humans, and I don't think that it is. They are just humans with powers.

If the argument is that those powers alone make them different enough from humans to qualify as a separate category, I'd say that's a pretty valid point. But that's if we were talking about what humans are in our world. In the MU, humans can survive radiation bombs; in the MU, humans are people like Iron Man, Hank Pym, Dr.Doom, Dr.Strange, etc; you're probably statistically just as likely to have superpowers whether you have an X-gene or not. So, to me, that makes the distinction seem arbitrary.

It's all in the genes, one tweak and you have a 12-year old girl grow wings or scales.

The difference is that the powers of mutants are inherit in their genes, they don't need a nuclear reactor or anything upsetting before their extrahuman powers activate. Plus you used to have tens of millions of mutants on Genosha alone, every other superpowered individual could be squeezed into a big meeting room (ignoring people who's powers stems from their species).

like I say, I find the distinction arbitrary. None of those distinctions make them more or less human.

By that rational Xavier would be the same species as Glob Herman, but not the same species as Dr.Strange, with whom he shares more genetic similarity and even some of the same superpowers, regardless of the X-gene.

All Iguanas are Lizards, not all Lizards are Iguanas.....boom, i just solved the mutant debate :)

But seriously, trying to make sense out of mutants roles within the MU is crazy. They have a culture, a history of persecution, and a genetic anomaly that they are united around both by themselves and others. At the same time the persecution doesn't make sense in a world of superheroes like captan marvel and the FF who are more powerful then average Joe mutant. On the other hand the comics exist in this irrational fashion to give X-Men a reason to unite/standout story wise.

Also as for the original question, "I have a fear of people who are genetically different from me and may have super powers" doesn't seem like a stretch when "Irrational dislike of foreigners" qualifies for Xenophobia....which is recognized by social examiners.

@koays

I've always argued it was a failed comparison and that Marvel told a simplistic biased story. Human's have a reason to fear mutants, to some extent hate, and it's reasonable to want some form of control. They are walking WMD's. Imagine if this was real like. People flip their lid when someone wants to own a gun you think people should think differently over a person who could gain the ability to destroy a city block? People wouldn't fear mutants because they're different. People fear mutants because on the inside where it counts they're the same. Not even mentioning how they're not answerable to any law but their own.

True, it is failed but not because of a legitimate threat of mutants so much as because of the other heroes who share the continuity. The fact is if it was real there wouldn't be much distinction between the superhumans and mutants and both would be grouped together as uncontrollable, but within the comics Marvel has drawn this invisible line between them in which one helps old people cross the street and the other is scene as a ticking time bomb. Though personally i think that makes the Mutant debate (in universe) even more striking because of the prejudice.

But to your point I think Xavier's whole motivation as a character is that, Yes they're a legitimate threat, yes they can be dangerous, and yes you should be cautious of them. But do you want to lock every mutant away, make them all wear collars and hope they die out, or do you want to accept that they exist and work toward a cautious, but beneficial future that can be brought about by working with these people with amazing abilities.

In that way the story is perfect, in that the humans fears are justified every time a mutants powers go crazy, and the mutants desire for human rights is justified each time someone proposes controlling mutant breeding. Both sides are justified, the humans just aren't the main characters.

@koays:

True, it is failed but not because of a legitimate threat of mutants so much as because of the other heroes who share the continuity. The fact is if it was real there wouldn't be much distinction between the superhumans and mutants and both would be grouped together as uncontrollable, but within the comics Marvel has drawn this invisible line between them in which one helps old people cross the street and the other is scene as a ticking time bomb. Though personally i think that makes the Mutant debate (in universe) even more striking because of the prejudice.

I think it's both to be honest. Though with the double standard that was broached a few times over the years especially in recent years where either the public turned on or the government tried to control superhumans. To a lesser extant yes but you would imagine that the marvel world is producing many more mutants then superheroes with less control. True not every mutant is super powerful but that's where the fear and prejudice would lie.

But to your point I think Xavier's whole motivation as a character is that, Yes they're a legitimate threat, yes they can be dangerous, and yes you should be cautious of them. But do you want to lock every mutant away, make them all wear collars and hope they die out, or do you want to accept that they exist and work toward a cautious, but beneficial future that can be brought about by working with these people with amazing abilities.

I agree. It leaves a more complex situation then just the "oh humans bad evil racists that they are now.". There are two legitimate sides to the problem equal if not more so than the Xavier/Magneto sides. As of now It's set up now that any character move/view that doesn't align with mutants automatically puts them in the bad light. Heck even mutants who don't align with the hive mentality of a certain view have a dark light cast on them.

In that way the story is perfect, in that the humans fears are justified every time a mutants powers go crazy, and the mutants desire for human rights is justified each time someone proposes controlling mutant breeding.

That's the way it should be. Unfortunately it's not portrayed as such. Even when you expand outside of the x universe Marvel still holds onto certain ideals.

Both sides are justified, the humans just aren't the main characters.

I get that they are the main characters but I believe a more rounded story would be more interesting. They could make more of an effort to show the human side. Especially since many of the mutant books have veered away from the black and white superhero type of stories. They've gone out of their way to make Magneto who is a terrorist and supremacist side more legit/valid or at least sympathetic they could do the same with humans. Even in a book like Uncanny Avengers where there is both mutants and humans the story is tilted. Sure right now Mutants are the bad guys but it's not really doing much for the argument that doesn't just get ignored or held in a hypocritical light when compared to non mutant superhumans.

That's a good point.

@dernman: Well to the point that the view point is rounded enough, There's an issue of Uncanny X-Men vol 1 (Don't have my books to check #'s) that ties into Dark Reign, where the X-Men and the other mutants in San Francisco are held up in their base after Osborn sets up curfews and other restrictions in the name of "protecting" the human population. The X-Men choose not to fight back because it would validate the fears, however some of the other mutants go out and start a fight anyway. The humans are the victims of the mutants who got violent.
Despite the fact that this is still basically a super hero vs super villain story, the fact is that undercurrent of understandable mistrust going both ways is what the villain uses throughout the arc.

It may never be flatly stated, but the X-Men know the humans don't trust their kind, and their motivation is to make humans be more open to mutants through the X-Men's actions. That's the teams goal and it's never put as US vs THEM, in fact it's thinking that way arguably led to Cyclops drift away from the other X-Men in current comics.

Arguably the reason that humans may seem to be portrayed poorly in comics(that was awkward to write), is because the X-Men's goal is peaceful coexistence and the greatest enemy of that are the extremist on the human side who would rather blow up buses of mutants then talk. And lets face it, even in reality nobody reports "Heterosexuality needed to further human race" when there's a guy in a white robe and a trucker hat saying "God hates Gays", the extremist always take attention from the moderate.

I'm actually arguing that every individual mutant is it's own species.

Pandas and polar bears are not the same species. They aren't even the same genus. They only share the same family, Ursidae.

Mutants are classified as a separate species but for those that insist that mutants are human, I think a compromise is that Homo superior are as close to Homo sapiens sapiens, as Homo sapiens sapiens are to Homo sapiens idaltu. In other words at best, mutants are a subspecies but the comics are very firm in their classification as a separate species altogether. Similar to Homo neanderthalensis to Homo sapien.

@koays:

Well to the point that the view point is rounded enough,

I heavily disagree.

There's an issue of Uncanny X-Men vol 1 (Don't have my books to check #'s) that ties into Dark Reign, where the X-Men and the other mutants in San Francisco are held up in their base after Osborn sets up curfews and other restrictions in the name of "protecting" the human population. The X-Men choose not to fight back because it would validate the fears, however some of the other mutants go out and start a fight anyway. The humans are the victims of the mutants who got violent.

and again it's colored by the fact that they were forced by things like the curfew and restrictions. Then there were the protesters who traveled all the way there just to protest them being there. Hardly the good guys in that situation. Cut out the protesters which automatically makes the humans the perpetrators it's still another example of the mutants side being reinforced by something and any negative being mitigated. There should be stories where the mutants are going well I understand, they have a point. Hell you could just have the narrator do it. The mutant side on the other hand get it all the time. Hell the biggest villains in the books are, humans, government, when they should be portrayed as even handed.

Despite the fact that this is still basically a super hero vs super villain story, the fact is that undercurrent of understandable mistrust going both ways is what the villain uses throughout the arc.

I disagree again. It stopped being that a long while ago and while the villains may enhance the mistrust it's underscored by the fact that the humans or people system are always in the shadow of wrongness that writers have them drowning in. The shadow they built up over the years is not something they can get out of

It may never be flatly stated, but the X-Men know the humans don't trust their kind, and their motivation is to make humans be more open to mutants through the X-Men's actions. That's the teams goal and it's never put as US vs THEM, in fact it's thinking that wayarguably led to Cyclops drift away from the other X-Men in current comics.

Which only goes to prove my point. Human's side will never be heard. Most people actually think Cyclops is in the right. It's been an us vs them for a long time. The X-Universe has become much bigger than just the X-Men and their old beliefs.

Arguably the reason that humans may seem to be portrayed poorly in comics(that was awkward to write), is because the X-Men's goal is peaceful coexistence and the greatest enemy of that are the extremist on the human side who would rather blow up buses of mutants then talk. And lets face it, even in reality nobody reports "Heterosexuality needed to further human race" when there's a guy in a white robe and a trucker hat saying "God hates Gays", the extremist always take attention from the moderate.

Everything you just said just proves my point. It's a biased, one sided story that tries to equate it'self to minorities but fails because there are damn good reason to hate and fear walking WMDs. Being a different color, sexuality doesn't, belief system doesn't give you the power to destroy a city block with nothing but a thought. Why should most of their human antagonists be portrayed in that light when they actually have legit reason instead of being reduced to "white robe truckers wearing god hates gays"? This isn't the news where you're reporting. These are stories and if you want a quality story you can and should tell many sides. I don't know about you but I would enjoy the increase in complexity in showing the humans as something other than, ignorant, bigoted racists and the mutants as the sympathetic oppressed

EDIT: Anyway time for me to sleep. Since this has been a good conversation I'm leaving it at that. Maybe I'll see in in a different conversation and hopefully that wont turn out bad either. (I always end up in a bickering match for lack of patience and not willing to let go which i'm now trying to learn :p)

Which is my point, they are both bears, but different from one another, same with mutants from humans and each other.

I didn't actually read what you were saying. I applied what he was saying in my head to similar argument. That mutants and humans are closer then Marvel like to portray them as and that some mutants are actually father away from other mutants then humans are.

I see. Just a slip of the biological classification then? It happens.

@dernman: It's a matter of perspective really. If you don't equate when the humans chant "No More Mutants" it's justified by the actions of Magneto, Mystique, Apocalypse etc, and the death and destruction they cause and not just them being depicted as bigots then you won't see what I mean. I just think it's an always present message whenever the issue comes up in comics, that the reason mutants are still hated after all the good the X-Men have done is because of the real threat they pose and not just ignorance.

To me the reason some antagonist get painted as bigots is because we're watching them side against character who we know have nothing but the best intent. We see mutant heroes go to a cafe and get refused service and told to go home because they may be dangerous, we see kids get guns pulled on them because they may be dangerous, we see people not being allowed to live there lives because they may be dangerous. I'll agree there is a missing element, as there's never been a 'Day in the Life of Joe Human in the X-Men World' comicbook, but the reason it still works as a metaphor is because we see the innocent mutants suffer from a situation they have no control over.

The fact is their never going to make the X-Men less sympathetic or morally right then the antagonist in their own books, the best you'll get is a half acceptance like in my previous example, where they decide to accept a curfew and restrictions because of the danger the public 'believe' they pose. Any more and the "antagonist" stop being that and start being right. Mutant Registration is the perfect example with it being a logical idea, but if they say "I see your point" then it's harder to fight the bad guy. It's just easier to write characters who go to opposite extremes as antagonist for a story then people who agree to meet in the middle.

Again I agree that the writers haven't given more attention to the human struggle of living with mutants. And the idea of a book or a story arc tackling that at its core is enticing, but i don't believe that by any means the view point doesn't exist in some context already. Likewise i don't agree that the humans are "always painted in the shadow of wrongness" at least not unwarranted, because again the X-Men goal is coexistence so anything that hampers that is the enemy. I'm not defending the writers for not saying blatantly that mutants really are dangerous, but with the threats the X-Men face i can't blame them for think the point got across.

@dernman: @koays:

A very good conversation, and I'm forced to choose Dernman's side (except the "Cyclops was right").

I'll just add that the mutant vs. human metaphor is so much more about (selfless) philanthropy (Xavier's dream) against (nihilistic) misanthropy (just read Twisting of a Soul, this comic book is a damn Manifesto of a misanthrope).

While I appreciate arguments made for mutants being a separate race from humans, I don't view them as such. Nor do I believe are they in the comics. While they are considered Homo-Superior, we have to bear in mind there are quite a few mutants whose powers were horrific, case in point the young kid who Wolverine killed.

"Base" humans give birth to mutants and mutants give birth to "base" humans (Mystique's and Sabretooth's progeny). Mutantphobia can be a real thing in the comics, I mean, if we were to think about all the damage caused by mutant powers, developing a fear or phobia of mutants is understandable.

I think I'd just call it common sense. As an average person in the Marvel Universe before M-day, I'd be pretty scared of mutants.

The problem is, it shouldn't be just a "mutophobia", more like "super-powers-phobia".

Yes, but what about those heroes who were not born with their powers but acquired them in later life( Spider Man, Daredevil, Hulk, the FF or via governmental intervention such as Steve Rogers-Captain America-and the Super Soldier Serum) or are mythological deities(Thor, Valkyrie, Hercules) or who wear powered suits of armor(Iron Man, Iron Patriot) or who happen to alien in origin( Silver Surfer, the original Captain Marvel or are mystical in origin(Dr Strange, the late Brother Voodoo)? Why make an arbitrary distinction based purely on birth?

Terry

Those are all extraordinary circumstances, not everyone gets selected to be a genetic experiment or gets zapped with cosmic rays; but its a different ball game when people are being born with powers. Now anybody can have powers and before M-Day the birth rate was going to over take Humans. That said the definition of a phobia basically says that it doesnt have to make sense. People are afraid of spiders but not bears and what not.