I wanted to start another "AvX" thread but then my thoughts brought me into even more general questions - what was the exact intention behind...............?

I mean, we always dispute about parts that can be considered as character developments or being OOC, forbidden/forgotten/abandoned plots, or simply, what exactly I want to discuss right here, what were writer's intentions behind these developments and plots.

Initially, I wanted to ask you guys about the writers perspective on writing AVX, how you've imagined the process of writing the plot where the X-office writers are sitting with the A-office (I guess) writers (Gillen, Aaron, Bendis, Hickman and Fraction IIRC) and they decide what exactly will happen and how. While, it might sound simple, I'm pretty sure there was their own "little war", cuz each office wanted make "their" teams look better or more heroic. Of course, the winners (Avengers) were already defined by Big Bosses, but it was upon X-office to make the X-men as undamaged as it was possible. In the end, we had Cyclops as the scapegoat and the worst Unity squad ever assembled (Uncanny Avengers).

Now, my question is, do you really think that the way AvX ended with Cyclops being a self-sacrificing antagonist, was ever planned to be executed if there was no AvX? I mean, were Gillen, K/Y or Fraction ever thinking where their developments will bring the character? Or Wolverine and Avengers look like bunch of hypocrites and provocateurs? Did they really think that "our girl Hope" is somehow likable?! lol

And then, it made me think, what exactly was the idea behind Hope? Some say she was intended to be a new incarnation of JG, some just a plot device. No matter what, it leads to another question - Bishop. Was it ever explained (before Messiah Complex) how Bishop's future is going to happen and Hope is a retcon, or there was always this big unfilled plot vacuum about his Origins?

I also wonder if portraying Summers as mutie Che Guevara, I mean, as a controversial hero, has something to do with his growing fan-base or it was intended this way since the beginning.

I don't want to get into a political argument on this website, so I will say this :

Che Guevara is in no way a hero. He was a terrorist, mass murderer and a total scumbag. Part of the commie propaganda machine. Not the kind of guy you want affiliated with comic book heroes that kids read about ( and none of the comic book heroes are like him. That would make them villains ). LOL @ the PC/Hippie bull^*%& kids are being fed these days.

What a great guy, eh ?

Nope.

If you wanna wear a T-shirt glorifying a mass murderer, why not do a little research on him yourself first, eh ?

Anyways that's my 2 cents on this. Done with this thread.

You don't want but you still get lolz

No matter where the truth is, like you said wannabe rebellious teens will still buy T-shirts with his face and he will be the symbol of revolution among them, and that's why I used his name.

I think what happened with AvX was the same thing that happened with Civil War: The Marvel up tops got an idea, said, "Here's the idea, do this idea." The writer's sat down to do the idea, and about half way through, one of the up top's kids heard about what was happening in the comics from a kid at school, and went, "HEY, WHOA, HEY! The government/Avengers are the GOOD GUYS!" To which every writer in Civil War/AvX (save one or two) collectively scratched their heads and went, "... What? Really?"

One thing that I felt was interesting is that imo nobody came out looking like a good guy. The effects have been a huge shake up in the MU which I think was needed. I actually think that the downfall was in having so many writers. The event should have been done by someone like Mike Carey on the xmen side with maybe Hickman doing the Avengers side. As far as what the "big bosses" wabted, I would say that they were trying to find a way to make Hope a big deal. And they wanted a character death so we got Xavier, though imo the impact was low. They also tried to establish a new generation of rivals or protagonist in Logan and Scott, trying to establish them as the new Xavier and Magneto. As far as the Avengers this event felt like it was meant to primarily have them ascend to the top spot at Marvel capitilizing on the movie success. It felt like boxing when the challenger becomes a name bevause of going head to head with the champ

Yes, it's kinda obvious how Marvel are sh*tting on the X-men because they don't have the rights lol And the times when they were the most selling franchise are over, so this event was a capitalizing on the new in-universe owners, like you said.

About the good guys, I don't know I felt like I was forced to like the Avengers more while reading. There even was that ridiculous sentence in the first or second issue where Magneto says to Cyclops "now you sound exactly like me", a hidden message to attend defying a villain in this conflict isn't it? But, Cyclops and even all of P5 weren't completely vilified in the beginning, and Avengers looked like a bunch of provocateurs, so it wasn't 100% one-sided, yet "the good guys" were obviously defined by the accents of the story. I would really pay for seeing what happened in the office when they all wrote this story, what other crazy ideas were suggested lol

As for Hope and Five lights, by Gillen, they should've been the real P6, since then this plot was completely abandoned.

Hope is entirely a massive retcon. Bishop's future occurred because many of the X-Men died to Onslaught, and relations between humans and mutants subsequently deteriorated to the point where sentinels were turned loose on the mutants. The sentinels eventually took over, similar to Days of Future Past, then were overthrown by the combined efforts of humans and mutants. However, mutants were still treated badly and many kept in camps for some years afterwards, and by Bishop's time were only beginning to be accepted once more.

Basically, the idiot writers on Messiah Complex got everything wrong.

Dam, I feel like I had a big hole in my X-education lol

Thanks for the answer, it makes wonder even more...

Im tired of the AvX thread Mayham, so no comment

@hopesummersforthefuture:

This isn't about AVX anymore, more like forgotten/abandoned plots or character/event purposes :)

Oh ok in that case where did the 5 lights go and what was the point of them if they did nothing in avx, lol

In Uncanny it was explained that they were supposed to be Hope's Heralds (her personal Silver Surfers lol) but Unit manipulated them to avoid that destiny, so he will observe how things will go against the destiny. And that's all we have.

Just gonna say the way I see it the plans were always(at least from schism on) to slowly turn Wolverine and Scott into Magneto and Xavier. Doubtful that Cyclops was intended to become as polarizing a figure as he was after AvX, but you can almost tell that half way through the scripting process someone thought about how great that an angle it would be for his character to continue from.

Hope Summers on the other hand had a complete change made to her, you can tell that whatever long term plans they had for Hope were merged with the crossover in order to kill two birds with one stone. Otherwise theres no excuse for why she became so utterly pointless after the event.

I believe, that the plan was always to bring mutants back that year or this one, but that someone wanted the X-Men to face the Avengers and that overshadowed everything and forced an adjustment to the Cyclops vs Wolverine for Hope feud that was brewing. This is pretty obvious because, AvX isn't even mentioned in most Avengers forums because no changes of note occurred within their books, almost as though it wasn't an Avengers event at all.

That said, the event sucked but the fan service and resulting X-Books/stories made it worth the pain it was to get through...even if it wasn't the initial plan.

@koays:

I would have liked it better if cyclops was more like xavier and wolverine turned out to be more like Magneto. Cyclops as magneto is just wrong.

Honestly, I like the fact that from the end of Morrison's run onward we can trace every step Scott made toward becoming who he is now. That's makes me appreciate the current Cyclops more since it wasn't just some "turn the page and it's Magclops" moment. I'd like him to eventually become a more Xavier like figure but I want to see where this Cyclops is going first.

Yeah i saw that. I wonder if Scott would go through it?

Scott isn't Xavier,
Scott isn't Mags

He's a good balance in between.

Yeah, something was really wrong this event was actually all about her, the war began because of her, the Phoenix was coming for her and eventually she revived the X-gene. Yet, we've seen a whiny unlikable brat that "needed Avengers to understand chi and responsibility" and worked against her own with shi*ty Tony Stark and poor soul Wanda Maximoff. But what we really get in the end is "Cyclops was right" while no one even acknowledges her as anything better then a tool or plot. Well done lolz

Good one, never though about this actually. And that while X-fans felt "hated and feared" like never before lol

I disagree. I wouldn't if I hadn't seen what we eventually got. It's not just about Bendis/Aaron faceless characters, it's about actually having the enormous amount of X-characters getting into the counting order. How many are in limbo? 70%? And that's after M-day and the whole period of X-books turned into the slasher-comics! Something went wrong I guess. I think the pre-X-gene restore-event should have had another one, of total characters' murder as a necessary evil, it could be harsh, but then what was the point of being endangered species from the beginning when almost no major player is even affected or at least people around him. Another point, the promising and short lived incarnation of Extinction team, I would love to see where it was going.

@adamtrmm: I think we've had our moment of fanservice though. The Utopia Era was pretty much as close as were gonna get to a period where all characters had meaning and point, even if it was just to be another body in a group shot to provide setting. I always say that the Juggernaut fight during "Fear itself" was probably the shining moment for the Utopia era, because it showed that there was a use for having all of those mutants in one place.

Because of that I don't think there's a problem with there being a bunch of characters in limbo because they're not all needed right now. Everyone might ask where Warpath is, but no one knows what role he would play in the books at the moment. Right now all of the X-books are doing something(no matter how slowly), and that may not require every obscure character in the franchise to be there for it. At the same time, having some massive culling of characters isn't/wasn't the answer either. I'm not a fan of Marrow but If they had killed her off when she wasn't being used I wouldn't be looking forward to seeing her in the new X-Force. Sometimes you need to bench people until you can figure out where to place them.

All that said, I think that in whatever event was to take the place of AvX, there was going to be a sort of requiem for the Utopia/schism era. And it would have justified why all the characters that were gathered on Utopia just up and vanished after AvX was done and brought conclusion to the period. And I doubt things like the Extinction team would've been so short lived.

this is absolutely true. I had never been a Cyclops fan, and while the huge focus his character was receiving was a little surprising considering he always languished in the popularity stakes - compared especially to Wolverine, Kitty, Storm, Jean and heck at least half the others - it was always an interesting read to see his character change. How and Why. We saw all of it. From the instant Apocalypse possessed him Scott has been different. And we knew from the instant he returned.

imho, Scott's character development is some of the VERY best i have seen from Marvel in the almost 25 years i've been reading X-Men. From Jean to Emma, from The Xavier Institute to the San Francisco relocation, to M Day, Utopia and X-Force. It was brilliant (very heavy on the Scott, but that was a nice change away from Wolverboring). The Phoenix blip aside, (AvX is a travesty of contradictory writing and mischaracterization across the board (hmmm except perhaps for Cap, Namor and Magik) Cyclops journey is entirely on page.

I've understood why people said he was becoming a bit like Magneto...but ONLY from his more militant stance and his focus on the survival of the race. Everything else about Scott has been all about the dream. Magneto was Magneto because he was not about integration or unity, or even just not killing each other....Magneto back in the day was about superiority. About Mutants being the new dominant species and that it was their right to take over and rule until standard humans died off.

Scott has never even come close to going down those roads. That's why I still don't buy into the Xavier/Logan vs Eric/Scott parallel. Scott is a more militant Xavier who is no longer willing to just sit back and work with the system. Logan is willing to work with the government/shield and the avengers...but like scott he is willing to go against them or get his hands dirty when he see's something that he thinks needs to be done. The two are actually in very similar positions in terms of their goals...but all the animosity from their past interactions has made it hard for the two to see eye to eye.

I also agree about the Scott having some of the best development from Marvel. You cant look at his changes and say "this is so completely out of character for him (bar some moments in AvX itelf)...everything from Morrison to the Utopia-era...you can see and understand almost everything he does. And honestly, as a long time fan of X-men I've really liked his journey, who he is now, and the position he is in. Makes for good reading.

Hope however has been my greatest disappointment with all of the X-books recently. I was really excited for what she could bring when she finally returned from the future, but since then she really never did much of anything. And now that her supposed role in re-starting the mutant race is over...what do you do with her? What do you do with a character where you her up with this grand destiny, have her only really play a minor part in said destiny (over half of AvX was literally "chase hope, find hope, where is hope"), and then have it literally completely fulfilled....mutant race restarted, mission accomplished...so, now what? I'm really hoping something comes of her time with Cable in x-force...because otherwise she just feels like such a waste.

Agreed completely.

Though I believe an explanation of the "Scott is Magneto" thing is because his new "We won't let them push us" attitude is more comparable to Magneto's "Never Again" creed, then to Xavier's "Let our actions speak for us" ideals for the X-Men.

As for Hope....the only thing left to do with her is to explore the other side of her character. She was either going to destroy or save the mutant race, and if you read Gen Hope you can see it was up in the air even right before AvX....so lets see what destroy the mutant race looks like. Maybe Hope as a Dark Messiah is the only way to recapture the potential the character once had, but with her not confirmed for the new X-Force book who knows if the damage is fixable.

again, that just falls more in line with his more militant position...which I agree that Scott has moved closer to Eric's position.

But in terms of the core beliefs, Scott is still much more like Xavier than Mags

crossing fingers on your hope thoughts...dark messiah would be something interesting

@koays: What ideas would you have for the Dark Messiah theme? I've not really heard it put that way before is why I ask.

Really I'd start of with whats already established: Hope's ability to stabilize the X-Gene in post M-Day mutants by touching them and there mental connection with her/desire to follow her.

Then maybe it turns out that she still has this power after AvX. Now you've got a rapidly growing Mutant community that become loyal to Hope just by touching her, and the only ones immune to this power are Pre M-Day mutants (i.e. the X-Men).

Have Bishop say that this is how it begins in the timeline he saw, while Hope is slowly overwhelmed by mutants instinctually loving her/coming to her for help with their mutations.

While Hope is vulnerable she is corrupted by the presence of a Stryfe/Apocalypse like character (maybe Stryfe disguised as Cable)/while the X-Men try to separate Hope from her followers until they can figure it out.

Then have Hope's mutants attacked by human's that are getting nervous about the growing mutant group and now you've got a pissed off Mutant Messiah with an army of fanatically dedicated followers who are about to go to war with the humans.

Only the X-Men stand between Hope and war with the entire human race.

@koays: Thats not bad. I was thinking that the post AVX mutants had a connection to Hope anyway with the Phoenix and all. I dont know if I wanted to turn her completely bad or have her be somehow possessed or something done to trigger a change in her that causes the six second war.

@hawk2916: I hate to say it, but I think if the war was in someway triggered by her connection to the Phoenix, and she at some point went Dark Phoenix it would sort of justify all the build up that happened since Messiah Complex.

Other wise, Stryfe is an Omega level telepath it could be him controlling her slightly, it would explain his interest in her in the X-Force books beyond just screwing with Cable.

Too bad this plot has been completely abandoned

@hawk2916: Maybe, but Cable's in the new X-Force so maybe Hope will get some follow up

That what I really liked about Utopia, it gave us that feeling of unity and family.

I see what you mean but I find it hard to accept people like Exodus or Joseph are out there and nothing is heard of them doing some controversial stuff. With X-men themselves I find it offensive franchise revolving around the same characters right now while too many are in limbo, I don't say they all need to have a spotlight but at least some character diversity is required.

AvX and the Avengers movie were out about the same time, I think it had more to do with Marvel capitalizing on in-universe priorities and the new status quo, too bad they know that fans will buy anything they throw at them no matter how bad or inconsistent it was, hoping for the better times and being addicted to their favorite characters. Sad but true.

@adamtrmm: I think characters like Exodus and others who are powerful or flashy will make a return before we see Joseph.

In the last year, between all the relaunches or rebranding (NOW, REvolution, ALL NEW), I don't think I've read a single X-Men book that referenced an event that happened more then two years prior. Exodus is flashy enough for them to bring back as a opponent but explaining that Magneto has a younger clone who sacrificed himself when Mags broke the magnetic poles and then came back as an evil villain years later.....I think it goes against there "friendly to new readers" approach.

The AvX comments were very true, every time I found something about it I liked, I found 2 things I didn't but I kept buying it cause I wanted to know what happens. Comic companies know we don't like missing parts of the ongoing story, even if it sucks.

@koays:

Well, do you really think that BOTA was "new readers friendly"? But I can see what you mean, I just think that Joseph could be the ultimate troll that will make Magnus face all of his failures while being younger, ruthless and powerful as Max was at his best days. I guess it just my thing :)

Another writer's "intention" I'd like to discuss is about Fatal Attractions, the moment where Magneto "kills" Senyaka, he says that he does that because Senyaka severely injured the nurse without Magneto's blessing while I think that he killed him because he was disgusted by that, but he couldn't rationalize it in other Acolytes' eyes so made them think it was because of his hierarchy dishonor while giving them demonstration of power and of what happens to those who disobey. May be or it's just me?

@adamtrmm: I don't think BotA was ANY reader friendly....If they tie in Exodus, Hope, and Joseph into some true Messiah Magneto angle for example, I could see Joseph working....but the tricky thing no matter what the story is the first page with Joseph....who is he, why is he here, and why is he smirking at Magneto?

I think Magneto sort of acknowledges that he's not as extreme as he talks, but needs to talk the way he does (or did) in order to keep appearances. Anything else, is generally explained by his admitted bouts of insanity. Like he threatens to kill Xavier on a power trip and when he comes out of it he's all "Charles I don't see why you don't join me". His depth is pretty well explained right before House of M, when he compares it to Scarlet Witch's craziness.

@koays: Speaking to the idea of benching characters that they cant find a purpose for... I'd much rather bench the writers who cant seem to find a way to use interesting characters instead of using the same old ones. I find it funny that people on these boards can find a use for characters in limbo but the so-called writers cant.

I say this also when thinking about some of the great villains we've had and could have. I think it just boils down to lazy writing and lack of research. It seems lately everyone wants to settle for heroes fighting heroes. We get issues filled with people b**ching about each other and taking shots, making little snide remarks about others and nothing every really gets done. The plots dont move or progress really. And frankly it's really starting to get old

@hawk2916:

I get what you mean, I've thought about it a lot with all of the recent shuffling of creators within the "Big 2". Sometimes it comes down to, "do the new creators even know anything about X-Men/Batman/Spider-man?"

Still I feel that a lot of times characters have more impact after being benched, I don't think Marrow would've been half as interesting an addition to the new X-Force if she was on Utopia or featured prominently in other places. Though that doesn't excuse a book like Wolverine and the X-Men from pretty much featuring just the cast of Astonishing/legacy for most of it's run when there are MORE then enough mutants to place in a spot and say "he/she teaches here too".

@koays: Thats exactly what i mean. I understand that taking a break can increase the impact when they return, but then why cant Wolverine take a break? Or Emma and Scott? Or Storm? Though she already took hers and I happen to enjoy Scott, Emma and Storm.

I think there is enough room in the x-books to have most of the characters there. I also think what tends to aggravate some fans is when a character is supposedly taking a break and yet we get 3-4 books with the same people in them. Or we get someone like Bendis rehashing or retconning or revamping or whatever the hell he wants to call it, the O5. He claims to be telling fresh new stories yet we have a trial of Jean Grey that's already been done and a similar concept was also done in End of Greys and now we get it told again as if the other times weren't sufficient. He could have taken those same ideas and tweaked things to fit characters like the New Xmen with maybe Hope or even...and I cant believe Im saying this, Quentin Quire.

@hawk2916: Honestly I think the reason is because Marvel doesn't trust a lot of the less noteworthy characters. I mean if we were to get a Young X-Men title that didn't have Wolverines name attached to it, it would probably sell but their logic is that if they have Scott/Storm/Wolverine in it with a small recognizable then it would sell more.

As far as storylines go, I'm not bothered by ideas like the O5 because its interesting and different. BUT 12 people have had the Phoenix in 10 years, across four different events and four different writers, it's more then rehashing it's a crutch.

And I think I'd rather them save the good ideas for a handful of characters then drag new characters into an old mess....I keep a liter on hand for the day that Quentin Quire drags the younger X-Men into a Young Phoenix Saga

@koays: lol at that last statement. I can understand that. I dont want it either and frankly Im tired of the Phoenix thing because it is a crutch as you mentioned. But ironically we are getting it again with the O5 and its such a waste. I mean let's move on!!!

Im also with you on that about Marvel and their stupidity..er... i meant logic. Though when you go back and look at the numbers certain books that were selling well in fact better than others were cancelled.

I cant agree with you on the O5. I dont think the premise was good at all and I just think that we have enough characters running around without bringing back the ones from the past and subsequently having multiple Beasts', Angels', Cyclops',and Icemen running around while other characters rot in limbo

@hawk2916: I can understand the 05 beef, since there are 4 different Beast running around at the moment and they don't even know what to do with the regular 616 Beast. I just think that it's an angle we at least know has to have an end, and when the Original 5 go back to their time, it's probably going to be a part of/the start of a big event.

My opinion in general though is what it's always been, "If you don't treat the toys you have right then your not allowed to get knew ones". So no matter how much I want Surge or Dust back until they fix WatX I'm ok with them fading into the background.

@koays: ahhhhhhh.... the big event. yeah I think you are absolutely right on that one. There will be yet another event on the horizon unfortunately. I have a bit of jaded view probably on WATX. IMO it should go away

@lordmordor: @devilsgrin81: @phisigmatau: @koays: @hopesummersforthefuture: @sleightofhand: @hawk2916: @jonsmith: @adamtrmm:

I don't really have anything to add to the conversation (everyone's thinking matches my own - mostly) but I did want to say, this has been one of the most enjoyable discussions about the X-Men that I have read in a long, long time.

@lykopis: Going back, I agree and was glad to be apart of it.

@hawk2916: WatX I think went off track when they didn't take the chance to explore the kids during AvX. If they had then coming back afterwards wouldn't have been so awkward. But it's over now, and hopefully it wont continue to be the main book of the JGS X-men after the relaunch.

@lykopis: This discussion has been awesome. I love chatting with knowledgeable and creative people.

@koays: I hope so. There's a wealth of character development that's being missed at that school. By the way the most recent issues of Xmen ( I think it's part 1 of the Ghost arc) was an awesome way to use the students (all things considered)

@hawk2916: Very much agreed, I thought it was nice how they were throwing them into scenes at first. But they really are taking full advantage of the people who are supposedly going to this school. If they keep the pace their going, I don't think I'd even want a WATX books, since I like the students/X-Men dynamic in X-Men better

@koays: absolutely

And who says all conversations that start with AvX have to end with riots and Admin intervention?

we can be completely civil when discussing differing opinions...most of the time :p