If you could retcon anything what would that be?

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#1 Posted by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

Now if you do retcon something, think of how you can mitigate that alteration and explain how it would work. For example if you wish Xorn/Magneto had never killed Jean, then what might have happened to the stories if she were still alive. Feel free to theorize what might have been if Jean was around for Second Coming and AvX?

If there is something you wish you could change or rearrange from a certain story, plot or character history what would that be?

#2 Edited by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

Trying to answer my own question will be a challenge because i would love to undo a few big events because i didn't like how the stories that came after were handled.

Fall of the Mutants -would have not "killed off" the X-men, but i liked them hiding out in Australia, so maybe i would have given them another reason for them being there. I also would have erased the Siege Perilous plot device because it made a mess of a lot of characters. Hello Psylocke. A lot of the stories that came after that were confusing anyway so i i think this event might have been why. But i liked the X-tinction Agenda story that came after.

E s for Extinction -did not like a lot of what happened with Morrison's run but the whole mutant population boom then genocide of Genosha was way too much. The shock and awe tactic was over the top and lead to other kinds of stories like that after Decimation. I would have prefer if Genosha was used better as sovereign nation at odds with the humans and sentinels trying to destroy their utopia. There should have been more of a fight on that island of over 1 million mutants and there could have been more stories told in that setting instead of going back to the school. Claremont's Excalibur .2 did a good job addressing those issues where New X-men didn't not.

No Necrosha. What a waste of an event. If you are going to resurrect all these dead mutants at least keep more than just one alive after the whole event.

#3 Edited by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd pretty much do away with everything that's taken place post House of M.

No Mutant Nation off the cost of the US.

No Mutant Messiah.

No Phoenix Five. Nada.

Though I've enjoyed some books from this era (notably Wolverine and the X-Men and Uncanny X-Force Vol1) I'll sacrifice them for the rest of this.

#4 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

Trying to answer my own question will be a challenge because i would love to undo a few big events because i didn't like how the stories that came after were handled.

Fall of the Mutants -would have not "killed off" the X-men, but i liked them hiding out in Australia, so maybe i would have given them another reason for them being there. I also would have erased the Siege Perilous plot device because it made a mess of a lot of characters. Hello Psylocke. A lot of the stories that came after that were confusing anyway so i i think this event might have been why. But i liked the X-tinction Agenda story that came after.

Yeah, the original Genosha story line, and it's sequel, the X-tinction Agenda, were kinda the only actual X-men stories between '86 and '91; the rest of it was really weird and a lot of solo stories. Not that they were all bad, but a lot of it, like the stuff you mentioned previously, just seemed needlessly contrived.

I've never been big into retroactive continuity, since it often just makes things seem more contrived (although, sometimes it's actually pretty cool), so using it to make something less contrived seems a bit counter intuitive; but if they were ever to reboot the concept, Genosha is one of the only things I'd be interested in seeing from this whole era (of the replacement X-men, '86-91).

As for Morrison's run, I did like how Genosha was used in that, but I also hated that it destroyed so many story possibilities. It does seem like quite a waste, in retrospect.

#5 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
  • None of that 'one more day' sh!t
  • None of that 'ultimatum' sh!t
  • Jonn stays
#6 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd pretty much do away with everything that's taken place post House of M.

No Mutant Nation off the cost of the US.

No Mutant Messiah.

No Phoenix Five. Nada.

Though I've enjoyed some books from this era (notably Wolverine and the X-Men and Uncanny X-Force Vol1) I'll sacrifice them for the rest of this.

Same, I liked some stuff from this era, but I wouldn't miss this period in general.

#7 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7268 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd pretty much do away with everything that's taken place post House of M.

No Mutant Nation off the cost of the US.

No Mutant Messiah.

No Phoenix Five. Nada.

Though I've enjoyed some books from this era (notably Wolverine and the X-Men and Uncanny X-Force Vol1) I'll sacrifice them for the rest of this.

This.

Especially AvX and the "fall out" to come from it. What a mess.

#8 Edited by Rogan2112 (600 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd super dooper double tap no take backs the first time Jean Gray came back from the dead, and made sure she stayed dead. Don't get me wrong, I dig me some Jean Gray...but bringing her back after such a HUGE sacrifice on the moon and explaining it as "saving the universe by remote control"? Plus all the dog crap stories that have been generated after it? I've been in one huge sigh since the "resurection" happened...I can't wait to be able to inhale again lol

#9 Edited by Dernman (14790 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine back to he really is and not what he became.

Cyclops back to being a hero and not what he has become.

Years of Prof X

Magneto truly back to being a villain.

Everything about Vulcan. He wouldn't be a Summers and Xavier wouldn't have erased peoples memories about him.

The "first X-Men"

There is just so much I could just go on and on.

#10 Edited by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

@crash_recovery said:

I'd pretty much do away with everything that's taken place post House of M.

No Mutant Nation off the cost of the US.

No Mutant Messiah.

No Phoenix Five. Nada.

Though I've enjoyed some books from this era (notably Wolverine and the X-Men and Uncanny X-Force Vol1) I'll sacrifice them for the rest of this.

If i could erase only one thing that would be House or M/Decimation. Nothing good came out of it and none of the stories felt inspired or enlightening after that and it seems like with mutants back in the world things can go back to normal now. It was the most pointless and darkest era of the X-men.

Maybe in that lost decade, we could have had some insightful and complex stories dealing with mutant teams and subcultures around the world, Genosha and Providence being reclaimed and restored, mutant civil wars, realistic xenophobia against mutant by governments/institutions, another strand of the Legacy Virus, advanced technology/science that removes mutations, a character or two like Omega who can steals other mutants powers, and more extreme tactics by violent villains. Instead we got the X-men running and hiding from an even more hostile society post Decimation and the X-men stuck on floating rock for a few years. Such a waste.

#11 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5772 posts) - - Show Bio

Here are my choices:

1. Jean Grey really did died during "Dark Phoenix Saga" and was not shown as a replicated body during that event. That just took away from the epic sacrifice that Jean Grey made during the "Dark Phoenix Saga."

2. Retcon "Avengers vs. X-Men," that event felt like it was just trying to push the Avengers' popularity rather than have a significant importance in the Marvel Universe. Sure, things are changing because of that event, but I have a feeling that things will go back to normal soon enough.

3. Schism - retconned where Storm or Beast should have been the ones to question Cyclops' motives instead of Wolverine.

4. Don't make Colossus into Juggernaut since they didn't really go anywhere with that plot.

5. Nightcrawler didn't get killed during Second Coming.

#13 Edited by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

Wolverine back to he really is and not what he became.

Cyclops back to being a hero and not what he has become.

Years of Prof X

Magneto truly back to being a villain.

Everything about Vulcan. He wouldn't be a Summers and Xavier wouldn't have erased peoples memories about him.

The "first X-Men"

There is just so much I could just go on and on.

Please go on. I agree with all of this. Especially the pathetic farce that is First X-men. hahahahaha ...So pointless.

#14 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

Wolverine back to he really is and not what he became.

what's wrong with what he is now?

Cyclops back to being a hero and not what he has become.

and what's wrong with what he is now?

Magneto truly back to being a villain.

like he was in the 70's? that sounds like a pointless waste..

Everything about Vulcan. He wouldn't be a Summers and Xavier wouldn't have erased peoples memories about him.

actually, I wouldn't miss this either. He really only served to make Xavier look even shadier than he had already become (which was overkill at that point) and give the X-men that no one was using an excuse to go into space (which is almost always stupid). I would add to that Cyclops' dad revealing that he'd been actually alive -and a space pirate- the whole time Cyclops was growing up; Corsair's always been a contrived and pointless character, he should have stayed dead.

#15 Posted by Dernman (14790 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine back to he really is and not what he became.

what's wrong with what he is now?

They are trying to turn him into too many things which makes him less off all. Get him out of the school, Avengers, leading public X-Teams.

They try to have it both ways a posterboy hero and an Anti-Hero. Someone who is the system and defy the system.

Cyclops back to being a hero and not what he has become.

and what's wrong with what he is now?

I'm tired of debating X-Fans on how he's become a douche who lost it and doing more harm than good. Who's self fulfilling his prophecy of the coming war between the races.

Magneto truly back to being a villain.

like he was in the 70's? that sounds like a pointless waste..

Another debate I've had enough of. It's why I originally left it vague so as not to get into it. Magneto was always a villain fighting for a good cause. What made him so effective was that he was charismatic, believed he cared about his people and had a point to mutants who were lost. Make no mistake though he's always been a power hungry mutant supremacist who would crush any Human or Mutant who got in his way. Maybe not Xavier to a point because he always hoped Charles would "wake up and join him". It's what made him interesting and the idea that mutants could be believably and understandably led astray to follow a villain kinda frightening in a way. ( Well it's a comic so take that with a grain). To me what he is now is a waste.

He really only served to make Xavier look even shadier than he had already become

Yes I feel like they spent a long time character assassinating him and along with other things undermining the dream.

#16 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

Wolverine back to he really is and not what he became.

what's wrong with what he is now?

They are trying to turn him into too many things which makes him less off all. Get him out of the school, Avengers, leading public X-Teams.

They try to have it both ways a posterboy hero and an Anti-Hero. Someone who is the system and defy the system.

While I agree that he's in way too many roles right now, I think the two you've mentioned (teacher and Avenger) are the two that interest me most. I think making him into an Avenger who represents the X-men is a good role for him. I don't think he should be on every Avengers team or any X-men team, really, but I got bored with him being a macho loner decades ago, so I don't mind seeing him be a little more grown up.

Cyclops back to being a hero and not what he has become.

and what's wrong with what he is now?

I'm tired of debating X-Fans on how he's become a douche who lost it and doing more harm than good. Who's self fulfilling his prophecy of the coming war between the races.

eh, maybe he is, maybe he's not; either way, it does make him a more interesting and distinct character, doesn't it?

Magneto truly back to being a villain.

like he was in the 70's? that sounds like a pointless waste..

Another debate I've had enough of. It's why I originally left it vague so as not to get into it. Magneto was always a villain fighting for a good cause. What made him so effective was that he was charismatic, believed he cared about his people and had a point to mutants who were lost. Make no mistake though he's always been a power hungry mutant supremacist who would crush any Human or Mutant who got in his way. Maybe not Xavier to a point because he always hoped Charles would "wake up and join him". It's what made him interesting and the idea that mutants could be believably and understandably led astray to follow a villain kinda frightening in a way. ( Well it's a comic so take that with a grain). To me what he is now is a waste.

I'm not going to argue any of that, but I still think he's more interesting as a sneaky villain who realizes he's got a better chance at his goals with the X-men than against them. He's supposed to be smart, right? Fighting the X-men and the rest of the world is a fight he already knows he can't win, so if he's as power-hungry and ruthless as you say, wouldn't the more diabolic plan be to stand with them?

I just think reverting a character back to a less dimensional state is always a waste.

#17 Edited by Dernman (14790 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler:

While I agree that he's in way too many roles right now, I think the two you've mentioned (teacher and Avenger) are the two that interest me most. I think making him into an Avenger who represents the X-men is a good role for him. I don't think he should be on every Avengers team or any X-men team, really, but I got bored with him being a macho loner decades ago, so I don't mind seeing him be a little more grown up.

It doesn't interest to me. There is natural growth of character then there is going forced going against the characters and to me that's what they are doing by making him a teacher and Avenger. Teams like X-Force is more akin to his character. Hell if you wanted to branch him out of the X-Universe a there are several teams that fit him better. The current Secret Avengers for one. Although If I had it my way I wouldn't be calling the team Secret Avengers anyway.

eh, maybe he is, maybe he's not; either way, it does make him a more interesting and distinct character, doesn't it?

This is another thing that bugs me and defended him from the haters for years. He was very interesting. He was more subtle character who also was great at enhancing the less subtle characters. Which is a very underrated and important character quality and despite what the haters say had many fans. Now he has all the subtleness of a rhino in a shop selling crystal and fine china. They've turned my favorite X-Man into someone I neither recognize or like. A delusional wanker.

I'm not going to argue any of that, but I still think he's more interesting as a sneaky villain who realizes he's got a better chance at his goals with the X-men than against them. He's supposed to be smart, right? Fighting the X-men and the rest of the world is a fight he already knows he can't win, so if he's as power-hungry and ruthless as you say, wouldn't the more diabolic plan be to stand with them?

I just think reverting a character back to a less dimensional state is always a waste.

That's the thing he wasn't less dimensional and I could see my version doing that but that's not what we are actually getting now. Instead of getting the Villain fighting for twisted darker version of a cause we are getting a slightly rehabilitated hero/villain "all depends on how you look at it" misguided person who did bad things because his heart was in for his people.

The Magneto I was trying to describe wasn't one dimensional. What is a waste is when force layers onto a character that is not a natural evolution of their character but a different one all together.

#18 Posted by t3hLomb (55 posts) - - Show Bio

Professor X being dead and being able to walk.

#19 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

@oldnightcrawler:

While I agree that he's in way too many roles right now, I think the two you've mentioned (teacher and Avenger) are the two that interest me most. I think making him into an Avenger who represents the X-men is a good role for him. I don't think he should be on every Avengers team or any X-men team, really, but I got bored with him being a macho loner decades ago, so I don't mind seeing him be a little more grown up.

It doesn't interest to me. There is natural growth of character then there is going forced going against the characters and to me that's what they are doing by making him a teacher and Avenger. Teams like X-Force is more akin to his character. Hell if you wanted to branch him out of the X-Universe a there are several teams that fit him better. The current Secret Avengers for one. Although If I had it my way I wouldn't be calling the team Secret Avengers anyway.

I don't see those roles as being forced, though; to me, it does seem like the most logical progression for his character to take. It's the direction Claremont started taking him in as soon as Kitty joined the team, and has been reiterated by every decent X-men writer since. But I guess that even long time Wolverine fans can't decide what role suits him best is why he's in as many as he is.

eh, maybe he is, maybe he's not; either way, it does make him a more interesting and distinct character, doesn't it?

This is another thing that bugs me and defended him from the haters for years. He was very interesting. He was more subtle character who also was great at enhancing the less subtle characters. Which is a very underrated and important character quality and despite what the haters say had many fans. Now he has all the subtleness of a rhino in a shop selling crystal and fine china. They've turned my favorite X-Man into someone I neither recognize or like. A delusional wanker.

That is a really good point, and I liked him when he was like that too. I just don't mind how he's changed, I guess. To me he's still the same character I grew up with twenty years ago, he's just in a really different place now. I don't agree with a lot of the decisions he's made in the last few years, even if others do; but every time I see him make a decision like that, I get curious and think, oh, man, Cyclops! what are you doing now? For me that's more fun than him being predictable, even if it has made him less subtle.

I'm not going to argue any of that, but I still think he's more interesting as a sneaky villain who realizes he's got a better chance at his goals with the X-men than against them. He's supposed to be smart, right? Fighting the X-men and the rest of the world is a fight he already knows he can't win, so if he's as power-hungry and ruthless as you say, wouldn't the more diabolic plan be to stand with them?

I just think reverting a character back to a less dimensional state is always a waste.

That's the thing he wasn't less dimensional and I could see my version doing that but that's not what we are actually getting now. Instead of getting the Villain fighting for twisted darker version of a cause we are getting a slightly rehabilitated hero/villain "all depends on how you look at it" misguided person who did bad things because his heart was in for his people.

The Magneto I was trying to describe wasn't one dimensional. What is a waste is when force layers onto a character that is not a natural evolution of their character but a different one all together.

which, again, is how Claremont originally wrote him, so, in my mind, every relapse into cartoon super-villainy he's had since the 90's has been a pretty pathetic step backwards for his character. Remember when he attacked the X-men when they first moved to San Fran? that was just sad. Hell, even Fatal Attractions (which I liked quite a bit) seemed like a step backwards for his character. I do like the character being ruthless and untrustworthy, I just think making him into a super villain again is beneath him.

#20 Edited by akbogert (3202 posts) - - Show Bio

It's funny because I've never really read a pre-House of M Marvel comic, and most of what I have read wouldn't have ever happened (Necrosha, Second Coming, etc.). So long as X-23 still exists, I'm fine with all that going away.

But after Avengers Arena, probably the number one thing I'd like to see retconned is One More Day. I haven't even read a Spider-Man book outside of the Ultimate 'verse (and that was many years back), but the knowledge of OMD -- and the fact that Marvel would actually do that -- keeps me from even wanting to go back and invest in it. I can't even contemplate how furious I would have been had I actually been a faithful reader when that happened.

EDIT: Seeing how this is in the X-Men section, I suppose I haven't a ton to contribute (as, again, everything I've known of that side of the Marvel U sort of relies on either House of M or AvX having happened). I really want to read Nightcrawler stories and his death precludes any new ones, so I suppose having him not die would be a good thing to retcon, except of course for how beautifully-handled that was, and the fact that it serves as an example of how to actually make a death meaningful (which Marvel seems to have forgotten).

#21 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

I really want to read Nightcrawler stories and his death precludes any new ones, so I suppose having him not die would be a good thing to retcon, except of course for how beautifully-handled that was, and the fact that it serves as an example of how to actually make a death meaningful (which Marvel seems to have forgotten).

yeah, Nightcrawler is one of my all time favorite characters, but, given how good his death was (even if it was in a story I didn't like), I almost think it would be cheap to bring him back at this point. It's too bad, because he's definitely missed, but I'd actually prefer to see the dignity of his life and his death preserved, out of respect for what a great character he was.

#22 Posted by Dernman (14790 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I don't see those roles as being forced, though; to me, it does seem like the most logical progression for his character to take. It's the direction Claremont started taking him in as soon as Kitty joined the team, and has been reiterated by every decent X-men writer since. But I guess that even long time Wolverine fans can't decide what role suits him best is why he's in as many as he is.

I don't agree with this. It was forced on him by writers because he became popular and they wanted him to be on the forefront.

That is a really good point, and I liked him when he was like that too. I just don't mind how he's changed, I guess. To me he's still the same character I grew up with twenty years ago, he's just in a really different place now. I don't agree with a lot of the decisions he's made in the last few years, even if others do; but every time I see him make a decision like that, I get curious and think, oh, man, Cyclops! what are you doing now? For me that's more fun than him being predictable, even if it has made him less subtle.

Problem with that is then it just becomes an expected part of his character and not a oh Cyclops what are you going to do now. You also run into a place where you can't go back without saying something dumb like oh he was still wasn't in his right mind. Then if he does try to go back without an excuse every stance he takes becomes polluted and weak. Every time he talk reason and calm someone would be like "dude were you not the guy who was preaching revolution and fighting the man" Also characters like him that served that certain purpose while still being interesting and getting attention are becoming a rarer thing in favor of characters that are the opposite which is a shame IMO.

which, again, is how Claremont originally wrote him, so, in my mind, every relapse into cartoon super-villainy he's had since the 90's has been a pretty pathetic step backwards for his character. Remember when he attacked the X-men when they first moved to San Fran? that was just sad. Hell, even Fatal Attractions (which I liked quite a bit) seemed like a step backwards for his character. I do like the character being ruthless and untrustworthy, I just think making him into a super villain again is beneath him.

and again I don't agree with that interpretation even if Claremont should be considered the standard when he is only one writer. I also don't get how you keep trying to shoe horn my version as cartoony when that's not what I'm describing. The one we got now is just another bland things are grey cliche. It's not beneath him because he doesn't and many others don't see him as a villain. They don't see him that way because he has a understandable cause and has a point to what he's saying. He's a terrorist that makes you believe that these things need to be done or things wont be fixed and it's only until later his followers find out that he might not be that man they were led to believe but follow anyway because they so bought into the take action philosophy so much that he might still be the best person to get what they need. Instead we get this wishywashy neutered version of the complex character he could have grown into.

#23 Edited by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogan2112: and @rabbitearsblog: Yes to Jean staying dead after the whole Dark Phoenix Saga. Her retcon in X-Factor was such a waste and an insult to the story Claremont wrote and the plans he had. She was not needed during the 80's with both a clone of hers walking around and her alternate universe daughter joining the X-men. Jean should have stayed dead for decades but i still would have liked her to be resurrected since she did become an entity called the Phoenix. I think they should have waited til the end of the 90s to build up her return, tied it into the Apocalypse stories, and saved her resurrection for the new millenium that would see the X-men movie coming out and the comic books being revolutionized for new readers. I think having Jean dead for a good long time for two decades would have given enough time for her to return as a psychic and cosmic entity and not the same girl she was before. A real evolution to her character instead of the confusing original retcon we got.

#24 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

@oldnightcrawler: I don't see those roles as being forced, though; to me, it does seem like the most logical progression for his character to take. It's the direction Claremont started taking him in as soon as Kitty joined the team, and has been reiterated by every decent X-men writer since. But I guess that even long time Wolverine fans can't decide what role suits him best is why he's in as many as he is.

I don't agree with this. It was forced on him by writers because he became popular and they wanted him to be on the forefront.

okay, well I still disagree. Wolverine's been in a state of rehabilitation from trained killer to responsible mentor for most of his existence as a character; I have no interest in seeing that character development reversed.

That is a really good point, and I liked him when he was like that too. I just don't mind how he's changed, I guess. To me he's still the same character I grew up with twenty years ago, he's just in a really different place now. I don't agree with a lot of the decisions he's made in the last few years, even if others do; but every time I see him make a decision like that, I get curious and think, oh, man, Cyclops! what are you doing now? For me that's more fun than him being predictable, even if it has made him less subtle.

Problem with that is then it just becomes an expected part of his character and not a oh Cyclops what are you going to do now. You also run into a place where you can't go back without saying something dumb like oh he was still wasn't in his right mind. Then if he does try to go back without an excuse every stance he takes becomes polluted and weak. Every time he talk reason and calm someone would be like "dude were you not the guy who was preaching revolution and fighting the man" Also characters like him that served that certain purpose while still being interesting and getting attention are becoming a rarer thing in favor of characters that are the opposite which is a shame IMO.

as I said about Wolverine, I have no interest in seeing him go back. He's burned his bridges and now he's got to live with that; that's an exciting place for a character to be, especially one who's been around as long as he has.

which, again, is how Claremont originally wrote him, so, in my mind, every relapse into cartoon super-villainy he's had since the 90's has been a pretty pathetic step backwards for his character. Remember when he attacked the X-men when they first moved to San Fran? that was just sad. Hell, even Fatal Attractions (which I liked quite a bit) seemed like a step backwards for his character. I do like the character being ruthless and untrustworthy, I just think making him into a super villain again is beneath him.

and again I don't agree with that interpretation even if Claremont should be considered the standard when he is only one writer. I also don't get how you keep trying to shoe horn my version as cartoony when that's not what I'm describing. The one we got now is just another bland things are grey cliche. It's not beneath him because he doesn't and many others don't see him as a villain. They don't see him that way because he has a understandable cause and has a point to what he's saying. He's a terrorist that makes you believe that these things need to be done or things wont be fixed and it's only until later his followers find out that he might not be that man they were led to believe but follow anyway because they so bought into the take action philosophy so much that he might still be the best person to get what they need. Instead we get this wishywashy neutered version of the complex character he could have grown into.

I've already read that version of Magneto several times; it no longer interests me, and his current role does.

#25 Edited by Dernman (14790 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: okay, well I still disagree. Wolverine's been in a state of rehabilitation from trained killer to responsible mentor for most of his existence as a character; I have no interest in seeing that character development reversed.

Ya it's going to have to stay disagreeing because I don't see it natural and I have no interest in this forced change. I don't see is a reversed character development but a fix to a character natural path of growth and evolution.

as I said about Wolverine, I have no interest in seeing him go back. He's burned his bridges and now he's got to live with that; that's an exciting place for a character to be, especially one who's been around as long as he has.

and a I said I have no interest in the course they have chosen and forcing the fans liked him the way he was with what we now have. I find no excitement in what I consider a ruination of a great character that has been around as long as he has.

I've already read that version of Magneto several times; it no longer interests me, and his current role does.

and i've read and put up with this version for too long and it never interested me nor does his role.

#26 Posted by papad1992 (6822 posts) - - Show Bio

@crash_recovery said:

I'd pretty much do away with everything that's taken place post House of M.

No Mutant Nation off the cost of the US.

No Mutant Messiah.

No Phoenix Five. Nada.

Though I've enjoyed some books from this era (notably Wolverine and the X-Men and Uncanny X-Force Vol1) I'll sacrifice them for the rest of this.

This.

Especially AvX and the "fall out" to come from it. What a mess.

THIS hands down! Hope can go jump off a cliff holding Transonic, Velocidad, Primal, and Oya's hands! Screaming "FIVE LIGHTS!" as their lights get extinguished when they hit the side of the cliff!

#27 Posted by Polarity (106 posts) - - Show Bio

Although there has been a couple of a good runs across the x-line since then, I seriously wouldn't mind a retcon of everything post-AOA.

But I'd settle for House of M onwards or even just Austen's run.

#28 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers vs X-Men

#29 Edited by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

I think i would like to retcon into existence new relationships...

Storm and Wolverine -they would have been official because there was so much subtle hinting and implications, and the only reason i can think of why it never became anything was because she was black and he was white. They had so much chemistry and connection during the 80s it was such missed opportunity.

Havok and Psylocke -they would have connected in the Outback and been the new "Scott and Jean". No Polaris pining, no Revanche body swap, and no drama, just fun.

Rogue and Mimic- these two would have been perfect together because they could have had a normal relationship after all her intimacy issues associated with her powers and she would not have turned into such an emo character over it.

Colossus and Polaris-they would have been a cute couple with a fun and sexy dynamic. (Imagine what she could have done with him with her powers...heeheeheehee)

Iceman and Emma Frost- i would have made them happen after she shared his mind and helped him develop his power, after she had lost her Hellions.

Magneto and Sage -when he joined the Hellfire Club as the White King I would have had him discover Sage was a spy for the Professor and they would have become allies. Then when he when eventually left, she would have accompanied him as his right hand woman and by the 90's they would have been partners, in every sense of the word. (Like how Magneto and Mystique were in the movies.)

#30 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@silver_raven said:

I think i would like to retcon into existence new relationships...

Magneto and Sage -when he joined the Hellfire Club as the White King I would have had him discover Sage was a spy for the Professor and they would have become allies. Then when he would eventually leave she would follow as his right hand woman and by the 90's they would have been partners in sense of the word. (Like how Magneto and Mystique were in the movies.)

I like this idea a lot!

I think Magneto could have been much more interesting in the 90's if he'd had Sage around to keep him from getting mixed up with the Acolytes. And we could have skipped that awful pairing with Rogue.

Storm and Wolverine -they would have been official because there was so much subtle hinting and implications, and the only reason i can think of why it never became anything was because she was black and he was white. They had so much chemistry and connection during the 80s it was such missed opportunity.

I think it probably had more to do with them wanting her to have a thing with Forge, honestly. But I always liked how the nature of them being more than friends was implied in such a subtle way, it really suited their personalities at the time. I liked that it was never a public thing, but a private matter between friends who obviously respected each other a great deal. It just felt very mature.

Havok and Psylocke -they would have connected in the Outback and been the new "Scott and Jean". No Polaris pining, no Revanche body swap, and no drama, just fun.

Actually, I think I would have really appreciated this at the time.

#31 Edited by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Thanks for catching my rough edit. ^-^ But i am glad you liked my new pairing of Magneto and Sage, i just thought of it now, and the more I think of it the more i wish it would have happened. They could have been a cool team and given Erik an romance with someone as smart and experienced as Tessa (I also don't know what Claremont was thinking with that Savage Land story with Rogue?)

As for Stormverine, i still wished we would have gotten an interracial relationship in the most popular Marvel comic of that time. And i think beside the possible taboo status of their relationship, Storm was depicted as super tough and almost masculine during that time which would have challenged other ideas of femininity and beauty. Then we had Wolverine who has being established as the rugged individual hero who like James Bond didn't have ties to no one and was the best at what he did. So i could see why they would have kept him a lone wolf. I still hold out hope that down the road they will be a real couple. Now, would not be good time.

#32 Posted by zprime (13 posts) - - Show Bio

I would retcon "Secondary Mutations" out of existence. It was extremely lazy writing and largely nonsensical in application.

Also, no Beak. Ever. Come to think of it, I would scrub Morrison turning the Mansion into a haven for what were essentially Morlocks. Also, let's get rid of Cassandra Nova while we are at it....just.....no.

#33 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

As for Stormverine, i still wished we would have gotten an interracial relationship in the most popular Marvel comic of that time. And i think beside the possible taboo status of their relationship, Storm was depicted as super tough and almost masculine during that time which would have challenged other ideas of femininity and beauty. Then we had Wolverine who has being established as the rugged individual hero who like James Bond didn't have ties to no one and was the best at what he did. So i could see why they would have kept him a lone wolf. I still hold out hope that down the road they will be a real couple. Now, would not be good time.

actually, we did have that in the Storm and Forge pairing, but, yeah, Storm and Wolverine's subtle let's-keep-this-professional-because-we're-holding-the-X-men-together relationship always interested me more. Maybe because it was so subtle. And, in many ways, Storm was also written to be a bit of a lone wolf, going off on her own adventures of self discovery.

One of Storm's defining characteristics has always been that she values her freedom above all else (hence her claustrophobia, her devastation at losing her flight, and her unwillingness to play second fiddle to Cyclops or even Xavier), so I've always seen her attraction to Wolverine as part of that, in so far as he always lived by his own rules, and thus seemed to represent the kind of freedom she so admired. He was also the character who most seemed to make her leadership of the team seem official, by being the oldest and willing to take orders from her that he wouldn't have taken from Cyclops. This is from UXM #142 (DoFP, and Storm's second issue as leader):

Storm: "I am the leader of the X-men. While that is so, you will use your claws when I command. No other time."

Wolverine: "I wouldn't take that from Cyclops!"

Storm: "You will take it from me."

And, from that point on, he always did. Like the symbol of strength, Storm put her hand in the lion's mouth and tamed the beast, completing her mastery of nature and earning the respect and trust of the whole team, but most notably, the Wolverine. To me, this is the moment was the catalyst for both characters becoming truly dedicated to each other and the team. For example, it was when Wolverine was to be married that Storm first contemplated leaving the team (in issue 158, "Rogue"), after facing her demons in the underworld.

@zprime said:

I would retcon "Secondary Mutations" out of existence. It was extremely lazy writing and largely nonsensical in application.

Also, no Beak. Ever. Come to think of it, I would scrub Morrison turning the Mansion into a haven for what were essentially Morlocks. Also, let's get rid of Cassandra Nova while we are at it....just.....no.

they weren't Morlocks just because they were weird looking. Morlocks were a society, with their own laws and culture.

And at least Morrison put students back into the school, for the first time in a decade.

#34 Posted by zprime (13 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I know they weren't actually Morlocks. That is why the word "essentially" came before the word "Morlocks." Don't forget that the Morlocks had to create their own culture/society due to their often hideous mutations (so, yeah, they actually were Morlocks in large part due to how they looked). Morrison's run was far too-often consumed with bucking the normal X-Person archetype that what he essentially did was throw open the doors to what would have been Morlocks (had they not started killing each other/been whisked away by Mikhail back in the day) as a reminder that, "Hey, these aren't your normal X-students!" That's why I picked that for a good ol' retconning.

#35 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@zprime: oh, trust me; I can understand why people would retcon out Morrison's whole run, as I have a love-hate relationship with it myself (lots of good ideas, not so many good stories/execution of those ideas).

I was just pointing out that your comment was culturally inaccurate, like calling someone a Rastafarian just because they had dreadlocks.

#36 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Everything since 500.
  • I'd rewrite Claremont's run and make it an X-Men series, not a Fantastic Four story with "mutants". And lead it into the 90s stuff.
#37 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

  • Everything since 500.

honestly, there hasn't been a lot I'd miss until recently.

  • I'd rewrite Claremont's run and make it an X-Men series, not a Fantastic Four story with "mutants". And lead it into the 90s stuff.

all of it? because from about 1980-86 or 87 was actually some of the best X-men comics ever.

Surely you must be talking about a particular, later period?

#38 Edited by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt said:
  • I'd rewrite Claremont's run and make it an X-Men series, not a Fantastic Four story with "mutants". And lead it into the 90s stuff.

all of it? because from about 1980-86 or 87 was actually some of the best X-men comics ever.

If you like irrelevance, sure.

#39 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

@fadetoblackbolt said:
  • I'd rewrite Claremont's run and make it an X-Men series, not a Fantastic Four story with "mutants". And lead it into the 90s stuff.

all of it? because from about 1980-86 or 87 was actually some of the best X-men comics ever.

If you like irrelevance, sure.

are you troll'n'? I don't know why anyone who doesn't like X-men from '80-86 actually likes the X-men really. I know not every era is for every reader, but if you don't like the '80-86 era, what is it you think the X-men are actually about?

#40 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

@fadetoblackbolt said:
  • I'd rewrite Claremont's run and make it an X-Men series, not a Fantastic Four story with "mutants". And lead it into the 90s stuff.

all of it? because from about 1980-86 or 87 was actually some of the best X-men comics ever.

If you like irrelevance, sure.

are you troll'n'? I don't know why anyone who doesn't like X-men from '80-86 actually likes the X-men really. I know not every era is for every reader, but if you don't like the '80-86 era, what is it you think the X-men are actually about?

Certainly not travelling the Cosmos, discovering multiple alien races, becoming hosts to God-like Cosmic entities, fighting against Dracula, going on spiritual vision quests and fighting Cheyenne Gods.

#41 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

are you troll'n'? I don't know why anyone who doesn't like X-men from '80-86 actually likes the X-men really. I know not every era is for every reader, but if you don't like the '80-86 era, what is it you think the X-men are actually about?

Certainly not travelling the Cosmos, discovering multiple alien races, becoming hosts to God-like Cosmic entities, fighting against Dracula, going on spiritual vision quests and fighting Cheyenne Gods.

alright, when I say '80-86, I'm talking Days of Future Past to the end of the Mutant Massacre, so I wasn't counting the Dark Phoenix Saga.

You're right that the X-men in space is always dumb and besides the point (especially with the Phoenix, the Shiar, or ..ugh.. the Starjammers; actually, them I would retcon out), but the first Brood story is actually decent, and Dracula was only a couple issues.

I'm talking about this era:

I'm talking about Mystique's Brotherhood and Storm taking leadership of the Morlocks. I'm talking Nimrod and the Hellfire Club.

I'm even talking Juggernaut and Arcade and the Wendigo.

I'm talking about a teenage girl standing up to a lynch mob, and the freakin' Trial of Magneto over here!

..and I may be talking through some nostalgia, but I don't think there's ever been a strictly better period of X-men.

#42 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

Or the period where all Claremont does is big up his pet women as "strong" characters by giving them no weaknesses.

#43 Posted by knighthood (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

JEAN GREY DIES AT THE END OF DARK PHOENIX SAGA, NOT SOME PHOENIX FORCE CLONE. END TOPIC

#44 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

Or the period where all Claremont does is big up his pet women as "strong" characters by giving them no weaknesses.

except for taking away Storm's powers, or having Rogue not be able to control hers, or having an abused teenage girl with god-like powers have an existential crisis?

#45 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

Or the period where all Claremont does is big up his pet women as "strong" characters by giving them no weaknesses.

except for taking away Storm's powers, or having Rogue not be able to control hers, or having an abused teenage girl with god-like powers have an existential crisis?

Storm loses her powers but she still kicks everyone's ass while she wanders around Kenya aimlessly and we all see she's so STRONG and PERFECT even without her powers.

Rogue can't control her SUPER-power but she's still the STRONG and PERFECT woman because she overcomes the burden of having no other flaws.

I don't even need to cover "an abused teenage girl with god-like powers having an existential crisis".

#46 Posted by knighthood (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

Wolverine back to he really is and not what he became.

Magneto truly back to being a villain.

Everything about Vulcan. He wouldn't be a Summers and Xavier wouldn't have erased peoples memories about him.

I agree with these as well. I would have kept Emma a villain as well. Sabretooth too (I can't believe they even tried that). But my number one change would be the Grey death at the end of Dark Phoenix Saga. Weirdly I'm okay with the Bendis time displacement Grey.

#47 Posted by Saren (25337 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd generally retcon the X-Men from existence itself.

Moderator
#48 Posted by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35 said:

Or the period where all Claremont does is big up his pet women as "strong" characters by giving them no weaknesses.

What!? If Claremont didn't "big up" his female cast then there would have been no strong and independent female characters in comics. Marvel's had the best template for what a superheroine could be and they help carry the most popular comic of that era. And for some of us, seeing woman finally not being treated as typically weak was a revelation and dearly needed.

They also had tons of flaws.

Jean being killed off because of what the Dark Phoenix did was a weakness, We got no more character development and the one female character that supassed all the male superhero in power level was punished for it essentially. She became a joke after the who retcon/resurrection plot and remained flawed thanks to Cyclops.

Storm, another powerful female, was depowered and made to fall in love with the guy who took her powers basically. Also her claustrophobia and strong sense of morality sometimes affect her decisions.

Rogue -her superpowers were both a gift and curse, and her being introduced as a villain was flaw at first but she got over it and tried very hard to make amends for what she did, especially the whole Ms. Marvel thing. She also had the psychological trauma of absorbing Ms. Marvel's psyche.

Kitty -was young and talented, but innocent and naive as well. She might have one of the best defensive powers but she could not do much damage with it so she was not a threat.

And of course they had to work against a sexist culture in the comics and in society and still managed to be iconic and as equal to the male character. That's a rare accomplishment in any media, especially in those times. The X-women had a recent spell of bad portrayals where all of them were either not in book at all or were full of flaws. But NOW I think we are back on track.

#49 Posted by Billy Batson (57802 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd generally retcon the X-Men from existence itself.

Best post in this thread.

BB

#50 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah those are all flaws and not just plot contrivances masquerading as flaws to make Claremontian women seem so empowered and strong.

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